January News/Discussion

[Taelas]

Ranged damage (aside from hunters) should do more damage per ability than melee. Melee range characters (and hunters) have the very distinct advantage of auto-attacks.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Mages are glass cannons -- even deep Arcane and Ice Block doesn't change that. If any class should have that kind of ranged burst damage, it should be mages. They can't stand toe-to-toe with other melee classes.

Replace Mage with Warlock, and your sentence will be correct.

Instant invisibility + Evocation that heals, Ice Block, Ice Barrier, half CC/DOT duration with Mage Armor, and BLINK make them the absolutely most slippery caster in this game.

In contrast, all a Warlock has is... ONE cooldown that he is often required to use offensively to get kills... Which, being an offensive spell gets absorbed by Cloak of Shadows, if it is used in the fraction of a second of freedom he may have from the opening stunlock.

Yes, there are 2K rated warlocks. Yes, just about every match they play against a rogue is an insta-loss. Yes, mages tear them a new one too.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Auto attacks they mean exactly nothing. As long as all classes are meant to compete for dps in a pve situation, the damage output MUST closely match. The only thing then that can balance the fundameltal difference of a melee and ranged in pvp is the burst damage potential and survieability. Bizzard has seen fit to give all (or most at least) classes an "oh #$%&" cooldown and high stamina, including "glass cannons". You're not a glass cannon when someone can hit you for "immune" or reduced by x% damage and you have as much health as the player not wearing pajamas. :P

I drew you a picture to demonstrate my fundamental point. The green circle is the area of influence of a melee class, the red is one of a ranged class. Hopefully the difference here is clear and not under debate.


Let me put this another way going back to the original post. This mage pops AP POM and various other cooldowns. Suppose this was melee popping some analog of these cooldowns. How does the ranged escape? He moves out of the green circle or pops some "oh #$%&" cooldown. To escape from the mage cooldowns is the same, but the circle is much much bigger meaning the "oh #$%&" cooldown is the more likely option. It should also be noted in a pure slugging match the mage gets to blow his cooldowns as soon as a melee enters the red circle, the melee must simply take that damage until he can bring the mage into his green circle, meaning the melee will ALWAYS start at a health disadvantage.

So, giving melee a high burst makes up for that pelting they HAVE to take while moving through that red zone. An alternative would be giving melee more "oh #$%&" buttons than ranged has, but I think in the interest of gameplay ranged classes should have a reason to attack from range.

[Artega]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...3568155&sid=1#0

Thoughts about current PvP after doing about 70 games with my 2's partner today.

[Lissa]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...3568155&sid=1#0

Thoughts about current PvP after doing about 70 games with my 2's partner today.

Better solution than upping the Sta on PvP gear, instead, place a buff that cannot be removed much like the one that is used in Wintergrasp on everyone that enters an Arena or BG, double or triple their effective health and voila, problem solved without having to nerf or buff PvP at the expense of PvE.

[Taelas]

Replace Mage with Warlock, and your sentence will be correct.

Instant invisibility + Evocation that heals, Ice Block, Ice Barrier, half CC/DOT duration with Mage Armor, and BLINK make them the absolutely most slippery caster in this game.

In contrast, all a Warlock has is... ONE cooldown that he is often required to use offensively to get kills... Which, being an offensive spell gets absorbed by Cloak of Shadows, if it is used in the fraction of a second of freedom he may have from the opening stunlock.

Yes, there are 2K rated warlocks. Yes, just about every match they play against a rogue is an insta-loss. Yes, mages tear them a new one too.

Instant invisibility is 25 points deep in Arcane. Ice Barrier is 30 points deep in Frost. That leaves 12 points. Blink is on a cooldown and only transports them 20 yards (and if Arcane, gives them a 30% resist/miss chance for 4 seconds). Mage Armor reduces magic effects by 50%, not CC/dots. Some dots and some CC are magic, true, but not all. Evocation is interrupted on ANY damage whatsoever and has a 5 min CD (and the heal requires a glyph). Ice Block simply postpones the inevitable (though postponing it can also get rid of it if you've popped CDs obviously).

Mages are slippery, true, but warlocks are far more capable of taking a beating than they are.

Auto attacks they mean exactly nothing. As long as all classes are meant to compete for dps in a pve situation, the damage output MUST closely match. The only thing then that can balance the fundameltal difference of a melee and ranged in pvp is the burst damage potential and survieability.

Auto-attacks matter a great deal. It amounts from anywhere between 40% to 60% of some classes' total damage (though 60% is rather poor). Ranged classes like warlocks and mages do not have auto-attacks. They need that last 40% on their specials.

Bizzard has seen fit to give all (or most at least) classes an "oh #$%&" cooldown and high stamina, including "glass cannons". You're not a glass cannon when someone can hit you for "immune" or reduced by x% damage and you have as much health as the player not wearing pajamas. :P

Sigh.

Mages have the lowest amount of armor in the game with the exception of priests. Yes, they have some decent panic buttons... but that's it. A mage is a glass cannon, whether you accept it or not.

I drew you a picture to demonstrate my fundamental point. The green circle is the area of influence of a melee class, the red is one of a ranged class. Hopefully the difference here is clear and not under debate.

Please stop insulting me.

Let me put this another way going back to the original post. This mage pops AP POM and various other cooldowns. Suppose this was melee popping some analog of these cooldowns. How does the ranged escape? He moves out of the green circle or pops some "oh #$%&" cooldown. To escape from the mage cooldowns is the same, but the circle is much much bigger meaning the "oh #$%&" cooldown is the more likely option. It should also be noted in a pure slugging match the mage gets to blow his cooldowns as soon as a melee enters the red circle, the melee must simply take that damage until he can bring the mage into his green circle, meaning the melee will ALWAYS start at a health disadvantage.

So, giving melee a high burst makes up for that pelting they HAVE to take while moving through that red zone. An alternative would be giving melee more "oh #$%&" buttons than ranged has, but I think in the interest of gameplay ranged classes should have a reason to attack from range.

Bull. Charge. Stealth. Short-burst speed increases. Mounts. There are half a dozen ways of getting close to a ranged class without them opening up on you first.

And you can always LOS a ranged class. Let me know how that works out against a melee character.

[Pantalaimon]

Bull. Charge. Stealth. Short-burst speed increases. Mounts. There are half a dozen ways of getting close to a ranged class without them opening up on you first.

Don't forget my favourite, death gripping people into the wonderful combo of your antimagic bubble and your retardin teammate!

[Quark]

Instant invisibility is 25 points deep in Arcane. Ice Barrier is 30 points deep in Frost. That leaves 12 points. Blink is on a cooldown and only transports them 20 yards (and if Arcane, gives them a 30% resist/miss chance for 4 seconds). Mage Armor reduces magic effects by 50%, not CC/dots. Some dots and some CC are magic, true, but not all. Evocation is interrupted on ANY damage whatsoever and has a 5 min CD (and the heal requires a glyph). Ice Block simply postpones the inevitable (though postponing it can also get rid of it if you've popped CDs obviously).

Mages are slippery, true, but warlocks are far more capable of taking a beating than they are.
Auto-attacks matter a great deal. It amounts from anywhere between 40% to 60% of some classes' total damage (though 60% is rather poor). Ranged classes like warlocks and mages do not have auto-attacks. They need that last 40% on their specials.
Sigh.

Mages have the lowest amount of armor in the game with the exception of priests. Yes, they have some decent panic buttons... but that's it. A mage is a glass cannon, whether you accept it or not.
Please stop insulting me.
Bull. Charge. Stealth. Short-burst speed increases. Mounts. There are half a dozen ways of getting close to a ranged class without them opening up on you first.

And you can always LOS a ranged class. Let me know how that works out against a melee character.

Are we playing the same game? The only way to get anywhere currently in Arena is to be able to offset a huge amount of burst in the immediate timeframe. Since Mages are 4th overall in 2s and 3s (Sample size for +2200 is still too low so I'm listing +2000) and Warlocks are dead last, I'm gonna have to say no, Warlocks are not more capable of taking a beating.

You mentioned 60% autoattack. Besides being outdated - it was at one time that high for Combat Rogues in raids, back when poisons didn't scale (damage poisons aren't used in PvP) and Windfury OH procced MH hits - it's taking raid-style fighting and applying it to PvP, which is nonsensical. You're out of range constantly, and burst-style skills end up contributing much more heavily than in raids.

WWS is being retarded tonight (big surprise there), but on the Stasis parse I found the absolute highest melee damage was 30% by a Rogue.

[Artega]

Better solution than upping the Sta on PvP gear, instead, place a buff that cannot be removed much like the one that is used in Wintergrasp on everyone that enters an Arena or BG, double or triple their effective health and voila, problem solved without having to nerf or buff PvP at the expense of PvE.

Only problem with this is that it wouldn't apply to outdoor areas that aren't Wintergrasp. I know that might not mean much on a PvE server, but it would on a PvP server.

[Taelas]

Oh that's right, they removed Soul Link, didn't they? In that case, warlocks probably do not fare very well. Hmm. Meh, sounds like they broke warlocks. >_>

60% autoattack was rather poor, I said. I've seen Fury warriors with as much (though as you say, it's rather outdated information).
I said it had to make up 40%. You're saying it should be absolute max 30%. Fine. It still doesn't dismiss my point: Auto-attack matters, and as such, melee characters should not burst higher than ranged.

[Lissa]

Only problem with this is that it wouldn't apply to outdoor areas that aren't Wintergrasp. I know that might not mean much on a PvE server, but it would on a PvP server.

It already does apply to Wintergrasp for the side that is at a disadvantage. Besides, Wintergrasp is really a PvE zone wanting to be PvP.

[Artega]

It already does apply to Wintergrasp for the side that is at a disadvantage. Besides, Wintergrasp is really a PvE zone wanting to be PvP.

Don't get me started on how much they screwed up Wintergrasp.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Mages are slippery, true, but warlocks are far more capable of taking a beating than they are.
Auto-attacks matter a great deal. It amounts from anywhere between 40% to 60% of some classes' total damage (though 60% is rather poor). Ranged classes like warlocks and mages do not have auto-attacks. They need that last 40% on their specials.
Sigh.

They have it and more. It's not the damage they do that's the problem its the BURST damage. BURST DAMAGE. That's what I am replying and commenting on. Heavy burst damage + at range = bad because there is NO WAY to directly mitigate it. Melee all you have to do is step out of their (as represented by my picture) little green circle to 100% mitigate their damage.

Mages have the lowest amount of armor in the game with the exception of priests. Yes, they have some decent panic buttons... but that's it. A mage is a glass cannon, whether you accept it or not.

If your panic buttons allow you to absorb more damage than someone who is meant to be more of a "tank" class, how can you call yourself a glass cannon? It was true once but they have so many panic buttons now it doesn't apply anymore. As for armor, there is so much armor penetration in the game now its far less relevant. Also most classes have abilities that partially or totally ignore armor.

Please stop insulting me.

I'm not sure what's insulting about a picture with 2 circles on it. It is an accurate representation of the area of influence of a melee and ranged class, and puts a very clear picture to what I'm talking about and the enormous difference between a ranged and melee and their ability to affect a fight.

Bull. Charge. Stealth. Short-burst speed increases. Mounts. There are half a dozen ways of getting close to a ranged class without them opening up on you first.

All cooldowns, most requiring out of combat. Just TRY and charge a mage if they are expecting it! They also take you further away from help should you need it, not a good place to be in the case of a character that can take you from full to zero in seconds.

And you can always LOS a ranged class. Let me know how that works out against a melee character.

Consider the abilities you listed above, they can be LOSed. Guess what? If a melee character can't see you he can't attack you either. :w00t:

[Taelas]

Considering that I'm Protection, I can charge any mage I want to.:PRegardless, warriors still have Intercept. Druids have Feral Charge (and stealth).

My point was, if a melee character can hit you, you can't LOS him. If a ranged class can shoot you... you can.

[Skandranon]

Sir Die Alot, do you play a warrior?

Because you're basically absolutely correct with regards to warriors and wrong with regards to every other kind of melee. Death knights plus ret paladins completely nullify the effect of range because of the way death grip and hand of freedom wind up interacting.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/

This is not okay. This is not balanced.

The first ranged class shows up at #10, and it's a lock, and I have no idea how he's there. The first mage shows up at #25. A ranged class should beat a melee class every time? Maybe in duels, but who cares about those?

[Quark]

Most people have been using SK-Gaming (it lists % of Top100 teams) as a summary for balance:

2v2 has Mages at #4. Above it is Rogue (10%), Death Knights (27%), and Paladin (31%). The Paladins are mostly Holy, that leaves Unholy DKs and Mut/Prep Rogues as the melee DPS above Mages.

3v3 is mostly the same, except Hunters jump up to #3 (but they just got nerfed) and the gaps between everyone else has closed. So it's still only 2 melee specs above Mages.

Seems to me the melee currently having the edge over the ranged mostly comes down to Death Grip and Deadly Brew.

[Tal]

Sir Die Alot, do you play a warrior?

Because you're basically absolutely correct with regards to warriors and wrong with regards to every other kind of melee. Death knights plus ret paladins completely nullify the effect of range because of the way death grip and hand of freedom wind up interacting.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/

This is not okay. This is not balanced.

The first ranged class shows up at #10, and it's a lock, and I have no idea how he's there. The first mage shows up at #25. A ranged class should beat a melee class every time? Maybe in duels, but who cares about those?

You know what that tells me? That I gave up on arena on Shar too early.:P

[Sir_Die_alot]

Sir Die Alot, do you play a warrior?

Because you're basically absolutely correct with regards to warriors and wrong with regards to every other kind of melee. Death knights plus ret paladins completely nullify the effect of range because of the way death grip and hand of freedom wind up interacting.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/

This is not okay. This is not balanced.

The first ranged class shows up at #10, and it's a lock, and I have no idea how he's there. The first mage shows up at #25. A ranged class should beat a melee class every time? Maybe in duels, but who cares about those?

Yes I do actually, and it lets me see it better than most for sure. I thought my original post was a little long so I did some trimming I probably shouldn't have apparently. I did mention that DG was an exception and IMO kind of lame. Before the expansion, the first time I heard someone say there was an ability like that I thought they were kidding. It's so obviously a pvp I win button. Ret pallys have better panic buttons and a talented run speed increase and that's really what saves them as a melee pvp class, they still suffer from the issues I outlined above though. The compensation? They have excellent burst damage.:wub:

[Quark]

Patch is out, and what a doozy!

Every time one side wins Wintergrasp, the buff is applied 100s of times to everyone. This is quite demonstrably a bad thing, as every time it happens the Northrend server crashes, starting a new round of WG where offense and defense are switched. Mal'Ganis has had this for about 7 WGs now.

[Chesspiece_face]

Patch is out, and what a doozy!

Every time one side wins Wintergrasp, the buff is applied 100s of times to everyone. This is quite demonstrably a bad thing, as every time it happens the Northrend server crashes, starting a new round of WG where offense and defense are switched. Mal'Ganis has had this for about 7 WGs now.

that explains why the world server kept crashing. hmmm. think i'll hold off trying to play till there is a hot fix.