Friday 2/10, Saturday 2/11, Friday 2/17

[khgerg]

Octord will be there on 2/17, but I will have to log out by midnight.

[Alram]

I just sent this email to Olan LS GM, and Mystique, LS officer.

Hi,
Here is our latest up to date confirmed list:
Conc (60 Warrior)
Durambar (60 Warrior)
Fazuul (60 Druid)
Necrali (60 Priest) 
Rogoll (60 Rogue) 
Marntruehorn (60 Hunter) 
Mogoraindyn  (60 Shaman) 
Yuri (60 Mage)
Octord (60 Warlock)
As I told Mystique in game, it is unlikely that we will have a 10th player this Friday, so if you have an 11th for 2/17 then go ahead and take the slot.  Any class will work. If you can't fill the slot, don't worry;  we can still do the job with 19, and we  might get a last minute addition from our guild.

Mystique said LS will  be  bringing:
2 priests
2 locks
1 druid
1 shaman
1 warrior
1 hunter
2 mages
Not counting the unknown 20th player, adding the Lurkers and LS groups together we get:
3 priests
3 locks
2 druids
2 shamans
3 warriors
2 hunters
3 mages
1 rogue
This is a very nice mix for ZG.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last night we raided Strat Dead and Amentet came along with us. There was some good loot, and everyone had a good time. Amentet happened to be in the Lostlurkers chat channel which alerted me to her presence, and that is how I came to send her an invite. I think all of the Lurkers have now joined the Lostlurkers chat channel (type:  /join Lostlurkers). If the Lost Souls join the channel as well, it will make it a lot easier to form parties during the week, apart from the scheduled Friday raids. The channel need not be limited to high level players; I think that characters of all levels could benefit from having a larger pool of people to draw from when they want to form groups. Also, we'll get to know each other better.
To join the channel all people have to do is type:

/join Lostlurkers

There is only one caution. We need to make sure that nobody including all raid leaders and raid assistants uses Lostlurkers as the CTRA channel. It should be for chat only. If John Doe designates  Lostlurkers as the CTRA channel, others in the channel, will receive spam from John Doe, and John Doe won't see the Lostlurkers chat.

Alex

[bonemage]

What guidelines are we operating under as far as loot goes? I know that initial discussions talked about a point system for 20 man and above raids. Since things look to be long term with Lost Souls, now would be the time to discuss a point system again. It isn't crucial for a first raid, as on the first raid everyone will be of equal standing, but if we do a point system (and I think we should), it needs to be in place and agreed upon by both guilds prior to the second raid.

[Mavfin]

What guidelines are we operating under as far as loot goes?  I know that initial discussions talked about a point system for 20 man and above raids.  Since things look to be long term with Lost Souls, now would be the time to discuss a point system again.  It isn't crucial for a first raid, as on the first raid everyone will be of equal standing, but if we do a point system (and I think we should), it needs to be in place and agreed upon by both guilds prior to the second raid.
[right][snapback]102007[/snapback][/right]

a note, be careful planning anything on Saturday, looks like your AQ gates open that day.

[vor_lord]

What guidelines are we operating under as far as loot goes?  I know that initial discussions talked about a point system for 20 man and above raids.  Since things look to be long term with Lost Souls, now would be the time to discuss a point system again.  It isn't crucial for a first raid, as on the first raid everyone will be of equal standing, but if we do a point system (and I think we should), it needs to be in place and agreed upon by both guilds prior to the second raid.
[right][snapback]102007[/snapback][/right]

Here are a couple of links for those new to point systems for loot distribution. I found them to be informative, particularly the wikipedia one. Fans of MMOG economics will find the theory interesting.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon_Kill_Points

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKP_%28Point_System%29

[Kevin]

Here are a couple of links for those new to point systems for loot distribution.  I found them to be informative, particularly the wikipedia one.  Fans of MMOG economics will find the theory interesting.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon_Kill_Points

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKP_%28Point_System%29
[right][snapback]102013[/snapback][/right]

http://www.carpeaurum.com/modules.php?name...viewtopic&t=357

are the rules we use on Stormrage.

Current points for items are not visible to those not registered on the CA forums but they right now are:

Tier 1 Sets

    * Bracer -> 65
    * Belt/Boot/Glove/Shoulder -> 90
    * Chest/Head/Leg -> 125


Tier 2 Sets

    * Bracer -> 85
    * Belt/Boot/Glove/Shoulder -> 115
    * Chest/Head/Leg -> 155



Onyxia

    * Head of Onyxia -> 100
    * Mature Black Dragon Sinew -> 25

    * Deathbringer -> 140
    * Vis'kag the Bloodletter -> 175

    * Ancient Cornerstone Grimoire -> 25

    * Eshkandar's Collar -> 75
    * Sapphiron Drape -> 75

    * Ring of Binding -> 25
    * Shard of the Scale -> 75



Molten Core

Lucifron

    * Choker of Enlightenment -> 75


Magmadar

    * Earthshaker -> 75
    * Eshkandar's Right Claw -> 50
    * Striker's Mark -> 125

    * Medallion of Steadfast Might -> 75


Garr

    * Aurastone Hammer -> 100
    * Brutality Blade -> 150
    * Gutgore Ripper -> 175

    * Drillborer Disk -> 75


Geddon

    * Seal of the Archmagus -> 75


Shazzrah

    * Crimson Shocker -> 50


Sulfuron

    * Shadowstrike -> 25


Golemagg

    * Sulfuron Ingot -> To be decided

    * Blastershot Launcher -> 125

    * Azuresong Mageblade -> 100
    * Staff of Dominance -> 175


Majordomo Chest

    * Ancient Petrified Leaf -> 75
    * The Eye of Divinity -> 100

    * Core Hound Tooth -> 125
    * Finkle's Lava Dredger -> 175

    * Core Forged Greaves -> 75
    * Fireguard Shoulders -> 50
    * Fireproof Cloak -> 50
    * Gloves of the Hypnotic Flame -> 100
    * Sash of Whispered Secrets -> 100
    * Wild Growth Spaulders -> 50
    * Wristguards of True Flight -> 75

    * Cauterizing Band -> 100


Ragnaros

    * Eye of Sulfuras -> To be decided

    * Bonereaver's Edge -> 225
    * Perdition's Blade -> 225
    * Spinal Reaper -> 225

    * Malistar's Defender -> 150

    * Cloak of the Shrouded Mists -> 75
    * Crown of Destruction -> 150
    * Dragon's Blood Cape -> 75
    * Onslaught Girdle -> 100

    * Band of Accuria -> 100
    * Band of Sulfuras -> 100
    * Choker of the Fire Lord -> 75
    * Essence of the Pure Flame -> 25
    * Shard of the Flame -> 50


MC Salamanders

    * Sorcerous Dagger -> 75

    * Helm of the Lifegiver -> 25
    * Flamewaker Legplates -> 75
    * Manastorm Leggings -> 100
    * Robe of Volatile Power -> 140
    * Salamander Scale Pants -> 75
    * Wristguards of Stability -> 25

    * Heavy Dark Iron Ring -> 75
    * Ring of Spell Power -> 50


MC Non-Salamanders

    * Obsidian Edged Blade -> 175

    * Fire Runed Grimoire -> 75

    * Aged Core Leather Gloves -> 50
    * Deep Earth Spaulders -> 25
    * Flameguard Gauntlets -> 75
    * Magma Tempered Boots -> 75
    * Mana Igniting Cord -> 150
    * Sabatons of the Flamewalker -> 75

    * Talisman of Ephemeral Power -> 100
    * Quick Strike Ring -> 75



Blackwing Lair

Razorgore

    * The Untamed Blade -> 225
    * Spineshatter -> 175

    * Gloves of Rapid Evolution -> 25
    * Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal -> 125


Vaelastrasz

    * Dragonfang Blade -> 220

    * Helm of Endless Rage -> 150
    * Pendant of the Fallen Dragon -> 75
    * Red Dragonscale Protector -> 150



Broodlord Lashlayer/Firemaw/Ebonroc/Flamegor/Chromaggus/Nefarian
TBD, will be updated later.

Trash Mobs

    * Band of Dark Dominion -> 55
    * Essence Gatherer -> 75
    * Doom's Edge -> 140
    * Boots of Pure Thought -> 115
    * Draconic Maul -> 200
    * Ringo's Blizzard Boots -> 115
    * Draconic Avenger -> 190
    * Interlaced Shadow Jerkin -> 50
    * Cloak of Draconic Might -> 80


Other

    * Class Trinkets -> 20 (Randomed if no one purchases

Though some of those items might change values for us since we are horde. There are items thare more desirable for shaman that alliance doesn't care to much about and there are plate items for paladins that horde doesn't really care about.

We do not use points for ZG though so values would need to be created for all of those if we do points for 20 mans as well.

And of course you can alwys use the Itemization Budget forumlas (isn't there a new version of this that adjusted to the few values that Blizzard published?) that you can get here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post143561

for a starting point to compare items.


The Tich Basin has moved to a modified version of the equation for everything.


Personally I'm still not a fan of points in 20 man but eh.

[Concillian]

Loot systems, finally numbers and systems, an area I can relate to =).

I have been giving some thought to loot systems. There are three good possibilities as I see them:


1) a "pure" zero sum system.

In this system the only time anyone gets points is when an item drops that someone takes. The points are distributed to those there when the item drops so that the sum of the points given out = the 'point value' of the item. Such a system will always be zero sum so that even if we've been raiding for months, someone new could come in and be at the 'average' point value so they don't necessarily have to raid for a month before they have a chance at a loot drop.

A zero sum system does not address priority necessarily. That would have to be addressed seperately. This assures fair distribution of points, but does not necessarily assure fair distribution of LOOT. Within this system you can always give to the person with the most points, which is usually the most fair way to do it. But if you decide to prioritize one particular warrior as "MT" with loot preference for tanking gear, you can still be within the system rules of maintaining a zero sum, but that one person would have an extraordinarily negative sum after being awarded a couple pieces of gear. This does allow some flexibility in prioritization for the good of the raid as a whole, but it also opens up issues which people can consider unfair. More on loot priority later.

Advantages:
- a very SIMPLE system
- People just starting, and at 0 points still have a shot at a drop if other people interested in that item are at negative points. This essentially "rewards" people for filling in classes that the group as a whole is short of. If that class is in short supply, items will go to only a few people and they will generally end up negative, so a new person of that class has a shot of an item on the first day of raiding.
- no corruption or collusion possible, the system is what it is. Very little flexibility

Disadvantages:
- Lack of flexibility prevents rewarding "good behavior":
- no extra reward for people who repeatedly die to a difficult boss. This can lead to attendance issues on 'learning' runs in less mature guilds, but I don't think that will happen too much from what I know of Lurkers and have seen in LS.
- In the event that we grow too large to fit people in 40 mans and raiding becomes a big thing (probably not in too much danger in this) long term, you can end up with people taking positions in raids where they really have nothing to gain, just to get points for a raid where items will drop that they really want. For example if you have MC on farm status and BWL is not, people who are pretty well geared for MC can take spots from not so well geared people just to get points for BWL gear.
The disadvantages are primarily 'social issues' and not likely to be a big problem with the folks we have.
- No priorities assigned by the system

2) or really 1b) A zero sum system with some social incentives for attendance of learning encounters etc...

For such a system to remain truly zero sum and not penalize those who do not come the way to do it is to give people "attendance points" based on time in the raid and "attendance points" for presence on loot drops. These are "attendance points" and seperate from "loot points". "Loot points" are subtracted at the time an item is given, but no points are awarded until a designated day each week. At this time Attendance points are summed and divided by loot points, such that a conversion factor exists for attendance points --> loot points. If no loot drops, attendance points are rolled to the following week.

This system is more complex, let me give an example.
a raid spends 2 weeks in molten Core. First week saw no drops and second week saw 200 "loot points" worth of drops. 50 People were awarded x points for attendance on-time and y points for each 30 minutes in the raid. Also the the 40 people there for the 200 "loot points" received 200 "attendance points". A total of 500 "attendance points" were generated.

At the end of the 2 weeks, those 200 "loot points" get distributed amongst 500 "attendance points" by dividing them equally. So each "attendance point" is worth 0.4 loot points. This means that the 10 people who were there week 1 for learning the encounter, but not there for the loot to drop, still get some loot points for being there to learn the encounter. Flexibility exists in weighting of attendence and loot drops by adjusting the relative number of 'attendance points' each factor receives.

People then receive their "loot points" for the week by converting their attendance points with this factor, then "Attendance points" are reset to zero for the next week.

Advantages:
- Advantages of a zero sum system, but also allows raid leaders to reward good behavior, putting a social aspect into the loot system.
- Gives some loot incentive to people who are there for learning encounters.
- Very flexible in terms of what rewards are worth more (simply being there or being there for loot drops)
Disadvantages:
- Significantly more complex for tracking points because there are essentially two point systems, one for loot points and one for attendance points.

3) A silent bid system

Points awarded via same system, but rather than going to the person with the most points. Points are 'bid' to the raid leader, with a "/w". The raid leader awards the item to the person who bid the most points. A time window is placed on accepting bids to keep things moving (30 seconds or so)

Advantages:
- Simple, items go to those most willing to spend "points"
- Priorities are automatically determined, no secondary priority system is necessary. If a warrior wants to MT, he will offer his points on tanking gear, while a warrior more tending towards DPS will bid low or not at all on tanking gear. Priority works itself out automatically.
Disadvantages:
- Less popular, but still useful items can often be disenchanted because people are hoarding points for later/better gear.
- Possible to collude within a class for class items, so more points are available for multi-class drops like weapons and jewelry.
- only one person sees the bids so corruption is also possible
- inflation is possible, meaning if someone joins and gets started, they might have to raid 2 or 3 weeks before they have any chance at all to get a drop.

I like option 1 best. It's a simple system. It requires members mature enough to not need behavior rewards such as points for attendance and such, but I think we fit into that category.


Once a system is chosen there are still other things to address:

- Point assignments.
Basically if some item drops that is usually of questionable use, it should also cost fewer points than an item very useful to several classes.

Where does SR get the point values for their system?

The Nurfed guild has published NDKP, that they use for their guild. Some people use these point values without the full ruleset they use. (DKP is a term used for points that stands for 'Dragon Kill Points')

- How to deal with miscellaneous items like
Hakkari-foo (coins, bijous, paragons)
shards / nexus crystals
valuable other items (souldarite, bloodvine, core leather, fiery cores, etc...)

Various options exists here, but they all boil down to one important decision:
- points are generated and spent for these items
- points are NOT generated or spent for these items

- Loot priority
Can someone be allowed to never spend points on early gear so when we eventually get to MC / BWL or whatever they end up with every useful for a while?
or
Do we force people to upgrade if the item is an upgrade and they top the points for the people who can use the item?
or
Do we incorporate the system in such a way that spending points on the lesser items is beneficial?

This is a case that NDKP addresses by incorportating the cost of the lesser item into the cost of the superior item. When a Tier 2 item drops, you don't pay the Tier 2 price if you already have the Tier 1 item of that type... you pay the difference between the two. This gives a disadvantage to a hoarder. A spender will gain use of the Tier 1 item while essentially having a 'downpayment' on the Tier 2 item.

I'd appreciate SR comments on how they deal with this issue as well.

I'm willing to be the Lurker appointee to managing the point system. I was kind of unwilling to participate in the other things because of my tendency to be later than everyone else, but this is a case where I think that matters less, as long as someone else can keep records for the time I'm not there.

Edit:
I see it took so long to write this up that GG responded with SR info before I even posted, heh.

The SR rules appear to be a variation of #2 on my list with a weighting for attendance of 0% and for loot 100% so that you still end up with just one point system.

[Kevin]

Well I did post a link to the SR rule set.


We use the 1b system. See rule 15 in our system. We track attendenance on learning runs and then divide that out over attendance shares. So say 2 failed Luci runs followed by a successful run. Conc makes 2 of the runs, Duramabar 3, Marn is only one, Mogo is on all 3. Luci drops 27 points of loot. Conc earns 6, Durambar 9, Mogo 9, Marn 3. Same deal as you mentioned.



Points are determined by the council which has 3 people each from all 4 of the guilds in the alliance. We started it with the points Tich Basin used. We then modified them based on the itemization formulas Blizzard used and comparitive analysis. Rarity of items is factored in, on a human level to an extent. More desirable items will end up being a bit more valuable less desirable will be worth a bit less. Points have been adjusted on the fly a few times, all changes are retroactive. For example Core Forged Greaves had started at 40 points. They are now 75 points and people who had originally purchased them at 40 were later adjusted to spending 75 and other participants got a few more points for it. If Blizzard changes an item to make it more or less valuable people don't get hosed on this.


Most items are compared to the T1 and T2 set items and adjusted based off those. Set items are generally a bit more expensive for similar stats because of the set
bonuses you can get.


We have upgrade rules for T2 items, and we are looking at using upgrades for some other items right now as well. Upgrades are of course lower priority requests that needs. If I have the helm of might and Ony drops the helm of wrath, I can choose to spend full points to make sure I get it, or I can see if any other warriors put in for it and if they don't I can then purchase it as an upgrade for 30 points. Similarly if I have the T2 helm and the T1 drops and no one else wants it I can get it for free as a downgrade to keep it from being DE'd. Keep in mind that we have point values for nexus crystals so the raid benefits more from a DE than from a downgrade but well if you have 2 pieces of your T1 set and the T2 helm drops it's nice to be able to get it that for the set bonus that you many only want every now and then (for my druid only when casting thorns or as an FR helm) without spending a lot of points for something you will hardly ever wear.


But again we generally just start with the item budget value and hand adjust. Any raider can bring up concerns on the points and we will do adjustments on them if we think they need to be adjusted.


As always all loot distribution is at the RL's discretion though. We have made calls for items to go to the MT to help the entire raid, it puts that person more negative but well when you are trying to get an MT to 255 unbuffed FR sometimes that's the only way to do it. But of course we rotate tanks the gearing is really only important for learning runs. Once you learn it and know what to do people with less gear can usually do the job just fine as well. Or a blue/green equiped tank with purple equipped healers can do it or what not.


Did I miss any other questions?

[Concillian]

a note, be careful planning anything on Saturday, looks like your AQ gates open that day.
[right][snapback]102008[/snapback][/right]

Wow, Terenas moved up like 15 slots or something in the last few days. Last I looked we were at 30 something and we end up 20th? We must have had our items well distributed so that the Blizz help helped us more than on other servers.

[VoiceMan]

I will have to leave the points system to those of you who enjoy crunching numbers. I'm enough of an artist that numbers are ugly horrible things to me, and the whole thought of a points system for loot has always annoyed me, and all I've ever heard is how much stress it causes. I guess I see the need for it, but I don't understand them. I'm not smart enough for that. All I will ask is that the number-crunchers help keep me in line, :blush: as I likely will not remember how it works, etc. My brain doesn't work along those lines. Just be prepared to have to baby-sit me through the process. :blink:

[Alram]

We will not implement a point system this coming Friday, 2/17. Time is too short to hash everything out.

Obviously any system we implement will be a joint decision with LS.

Why do we need a point system at this juncture?

[Kevin]

We will not implement a point system this coming Friday, 2/17. Time is too short to hash everything out.

Obviously any system we implement will be a joint decision with LS.

Why do we need a point system at this juncture?
[right][snapback]102034[/snapback][/right]

We don't but we might. No harm in early discussion. And while it will be a joint effort if we can come to an agreement amongsts ourselves early it could speed up and smooth discussions with LS.

Also Stormrage went with a point system because there were issues because we didn't have one. People that were on 15 raids not having won any loot and people that were on their first or second raid getting loot. There were long and at times heated discussions and the point system was the best loot system for our alliance. That may not be true for Terenas. It might be better for us to use something else.

I also had no intentions for a point system for Friday. Just want to make sure we have clarified loot rules so that people don't have small issues that blow up into large issues when they shouldn't.


Also there are pros and cons to a point system for a 20 man. If you use a single point system that covers 20 and 40 mans you avoid the issue of, well this gear that I can get in a 20 man for no points is as good as or better than something that is expensive points wise in the 40 man why do I spend points on that when I can get as good or better for "free". But of course you add over head and cumbersome stuff to deal with and make things feel more clinical and about loot. Any loot system just by it being in place makes loot seem more important.

Oh well I honestly don't care that much what we do. I just like to play with you guys and have fun, and get loot when I can (I would be a big fat liar to say I don't want better gear). I'm just opinionated and like to discuss stuff. :)

[Concillian]

Why do we need a point system at this juncture?
[right][snapback]102034[/snapback][/right]

We don't necessarily...
What we need is an agreement about how to distribute loot.

It doesn't matter if it's a point system or not, it matters that the guilds agree. If the agreement is that we are best suited by not having a point system for now, then that's great.

However, if we grow to the point of doing MC, seeing 4 pieces of loot drop in a week for 40 people showing up, you start needing a system to ensure fairness instead of a situation like GG described, where people show up several raids in a row with no loot, while new people start getting lucky rolls.

The need arises when you have a low loot - to - player ratio.

On 5 mans this isn't really a problem as you kilil 5-10 bosses, people can at least leave with a shard or quest completions. But the raid instances are such that you can EXPECT to get nothing for a couple trips in a row, so you need something to track things so you don't inadvertently give someone preference that someone else deems unfair.

Perhaps the best example is the infamy of Durambar and myself rolling against each other on warrior gear. I have had a pretty lucky streak on heads-up rolling. This can be seen as unfair by Durambar. A point system would alleviate the radomness and potential for these kinds of 'streaks', which may keep Durambar from feeling frustrated and me from feeling any guilt.

I am of the mindset that for at least a couple weeks of ZG we can do without a point system, but if it becomes a regular thing, then it might be a good idea to implement one.

If we're going to implement something, it's not going to happen overnight, so early discussions don't hurt.

Personally, I don't really care at this point. I'm not going to say that loot doesn't matter, but it's not a big deal to me right now. If we have a system that works without points, it's great. Just that with a guild alliance there is a danger that someone could inadvertently show preference that would cause an issue between the guilds.

I think when dealing with a maturity level as high as we have in our guild, and that I've seen from LS, the issue is not purposeful preference, but inadvertent preference.


-------- Separate subject -------


At the very least we should come up with a system for bijous/coins/paragons for Friday.

My suggestion would be a guild roll on the first of each type of BoEs (one for coins, one for bijous and one for voodoo dolls). Alternate guilds from then on out... guilds can sort them out individually later. This way one designated person rolls need from each guild on the first one, and everyone else passes. Then on the 2nd drop, the person who lost the last roll hits need and everyone else passes. This allows the in-game loot system to take care of everything and hopefully will help speed things along.

Paragons should be addressed same as normal blue/purple BoP drops, however we are handling those. Probably a separate "need" from normal items? Last week we only listed three classes that could use the paragon that dropped, but there are usually four for each paragon, three for an item, and one for a ZG enchant. The exception are items which are usable by pally, only three then, as we are guaranteed not to have a pally with us. I'm pretty sure we did not include the enchant class last Friday.

We might consider giving preference to classes who can use paragons at friendly rep (enchants are friendly) as these will be of most immediate use. Not much point in giving a paragon we get now to a class that can't use it until they get revered with Zandalar. As people gain faction with Zandalar this can be adjusted.

Paragon uses (friendly enchant, friendly item, honored, revered):

Code:

Paragon     Enchant      Friendly           Honored            Revered

Bindings    Dru       Hunt, Mage
Stanchion   Hunt      Dru, Prst, Warl
Girdle      Mage                         Rog, Sham, Warr        
Shawl        --                          Hunt, Mage
Tabard      Prst                                             Druid, Shaman
Kossack     Rog                                              Mage, Warl, Warr
Sash        Sham                         Dru, Prst, Warl
Armsplint   Warl      Rog, Sham, Warr
Aegis       Warr                                             Hunt, Prst, Rog

I left Pally out of the matrix, which makes it look unbalanced.

[Alram]

We don't necessarily...
What we need is an agreement about how to distribute loot.

It doesn't matter if it's a point system or not, it matters that the guilds agree.  If the agreement is that we are best suited by not having a point system for now, then that's great.

However, if we grow to the point of doing MC, seeing 4 pieces of loot drop in a week for 40 people showing up, you start needing a system to ensure fairness instead of a situation like GG described, where people show up several raids in a row with no loot, while new people start getting lucky rolls. 

The need arises when you have a low loot - to - player ratio.

On 5 mans this isn't really a problem as you kilil 5-10 bosses, people can at least leave with a shard or quest completions.  But the raid instances are such that you can EXPECT to get nothing for a couple trips in a row, so you need something to track things so you don't inadvertently give someone preference that someone else deems unfair.

Perhaps the best example is the infamy of Durambar and myself rolling against each other on warrior gear.  I have had a pretty lucky streak on heads-up rolling.  This can be seen as unfair by Durambar.  A point system would alleviate the radomness and potential for these kinds of 'streaks', which may keep Durambar from feeling frustrated and me from feeling any guilt.

I am of the mindset that for at least a couple weeks of ZG we can do without a point system, but if it becomes a regular thing, then it might be a good idea to implement one. 

If we're going to implement something, it's not going to happen overnight, so early discussions don't hurt.

Personally, I don't really care at this point.  I'm not going to say that loot doesn't matter, but it's not a big deal to me right now.  If we have a system that works without points, it's great.  Just that with a guild alliance there is a danger that someone could inadvertently show preference that would cause an issue between the guilds. 

I think when dealing with a maturity level as high as we have in our guild, and that I've seen from LS, the issue is not purposeful preference, but inadvertent preference.
-------- Separate subject -------
At the very least we should come up with a system for bijous/coins/paragons for Friday. 

My suggestion would be a guild roll on the first of each type of BoEs (one for coins, one for bijous and one for voodoo dolls).  Alternate guilds from then on out... guilds can sort them out individually later.  This way one designated person rolls need from each guild on the first one, and everyone else passes.  Then on the 2nd drop, the person who lost the last roll hits need and everyone else passes.  This allows the in-game loot system to take care of everything and hopefully will help speed things along.

Paragons should be addressed same as normal blue/purple BoP drops, however we are handling those.  Probably a separate "need" from normal items? Last week we only listed three classes that could use the paragon that dropped, but there are usually four for each paragon, three for an item, and one for a ZG enchant.  The exception are items which are usable by pally, only three then, as we are guaranteed not to have a pally with us.  I'm pretty sure we did not include the enchant class last Friday. 

We might consider giving preference to classes who can use paragons at friendly rep (enchants are friendly) as these will be of most immediate use.  Not much point in giving a paragon we get now to a class that can't use it until they get revered with Zandalar.  As people gain faction with Zandalar this can be adjusted.

Paragon uses (friendly enchant, friendly item, honored, revered):

Code:

Paragon     Enchant      Friendly           Honored            Revered

Bindings    Dru       Hunt, Mage
Stanchion   Hunt      Dru, Prst, Warl
Girdle      Mage                         Rog, Sham, Warr        
Shawl        --                          Hunt, Mage
Tabard      Prst                                             Druid, Shaman
Kossack     Rog                                              Mage, Warl, Warr
Sash        Sham                         Dru, Prst, Warl
Armsplint   Warl      Rog, Sham, Warr
Aegis       Warr                                             Hunt, Prst, Rog

I left Pally out of the matrix, which makes it look unbalanced.
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I appreciate all this feedback and discussion. A point system is new to me so I like understanding the pros and cons, ins and outs.

With regard to bijous/coins/ for Friday, I think this rule already established with LS addresses it:

9. Orb's and other Rare items will be kept for the guild and a list of ppl for enchants kept, Crusder etc.
Initially everyone passes. Then how about a guild roll on all reagents, books, patterns? One rep from Lurkers, one from Lost Souls? This way those nice reagents (and patterns) can still build guild professions etc. without worrying about unfairness between guilds. The guild that wins the roll will then handle the distribution  within  the respective guild.  If one guild seems to be winning all the rolls they will then defer to the other guild until a balance has been struck.

.It is fundamentally the same as you propose, Concillian; I think. If last Friday was any indication, then the majority of people should be able to get a coin or bijou. If anyone in our guild didn't get one last week, then they should receive one this week.
I think, as you say, Paragons should be treated like normal blue/purple BoP drops.

I have a problem I need help with that relates to grouping with LS.
I have sent them 9 emails. (Everything of importance, fortunately has been replicated here in the forum.) I use Thunderbird v1.02. I created a subfolder to my Sent folder entitled Sent to LS. I dragged and dropped all 9 sent items into the subfolder, and now when I open them they are totally blank. How can I retrieve those emails? I am not closing Thunderbird just in case.

[bonemage]

If anyone in our guild didn't get one last week, then they should receive one this week.
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I think it complicates things needlessly by involving a run with another guild(s) into this week's loot distribution, and I'm not sure if that's fair to LS to do so. If the players of the Lurkers that didn't get anything last week are given preference for coins/bijous, how is that fair to the LS members? If LS members that didn't get anything last week (they weren't there) are given preference on drops this week, how is that fair to the Lurkers, especially those that didn't get anything but rep? We as a guild did well last week for only killing one boss, and I think what is fairest to both is leaving that as a seperate run. Last week is done and gone, and that's from someone who only got a green coin he doesn't have a use for. Both guilds will benefit from our experience in ZG last week, and the couple drops we got will just result in less competition for those items when they drop again.

I like Concillian's idea of a guild bank and guild rolls for the BoE coins and Bijous, and let the guilds sort those out. I'm sure we can address it by way of discussion as we've done with other things. I do think a rule should be set in place that the coins/bijous are kept within the alliance, perhaps traded between the guilds, but not sold/traded to anyone outside the guild alliance.

I am having second thoughts about needing a point system, because the loot to person ratio is FAR superior for 20 people in ZG than 40 in MC. ZG was easier than I thought, considering that I thought the raid was more PUG than anything last week. I have full confidence in our success with LS. There are half as many people, and the various drops with numerous boss kills per run should keep loot chances similar to 5 man or a UBRS run. Sometimes you get something cool, sometimes you get only rep.

One thing that still has me concerned is the epics. Much more desired than the blues, and with much smaller drop percentages. We at least need a guideline on these to be sure that Conc doesn't have every warrior epic drop in the entire instance before Durambar gets his first. (No, I'm not traumatized by the past, I just have a healthy respect for it's lessons...) <_< The epics are different from other drops (we've never had a realistic shot at a BoP epic before) and so we need some consideration for those beyond what we have in place. Perhaps just "I've already got one, I'll pass to those that haven't gotten a ZG epic drop yet."

There is potential for drama with or without a point system. Having read up on a number uf different systems, there are pros and cons to each, and having one isn't really better than not having one, if the people are good, and the guidelines are fair. Most systems deal with many more players, with some of questionable ethics than what we have to deal with. There needs to be something in place, and both guilds need to agree on it. Lurkers and the Lost Souls have proven to be mature, reasonable people, so we can figure it out. So perhaps we refine our current list of guidelines to address coins, bijous, epics, and BoP reagents. Then we see how we do for a few weeks. If things go OK, we continue with what we have, if we find that players are unhappy, we need to look at this again. There is still a good chance we can work this out fairly with maturity and cooperation, which is probably the most preferred. That is, provided that Conc takes pity on Durambar now and then... :whistling:

[Concillian]

I think it complicates things needlessly by involving a run with another guild(s) into this week's loot distribution, and I'm not sure if that's fair to LS to do so.
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I think he meant among the stuff that went to the Lurkers. He was taking one step further from initial roll and talking about distribution within our guild.

Also the guideline he quoted differed only from my suggestion in mechanics. The end result would be the same.

[Alram]

QUOTE(bonemage @ Feb 14 2006, 08:11 PM)
I think it complicates things needlessly by involving a run with another guild(s) into this week's loot distribution, and I'm not sure if that's fair to LS to do so.
*
I think he meant among the stuff that went to the Lurkers.&nbsp; He was taking one step further from initial roll and talking about distribution within our guild.

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Concillian is correct.
And bloodvine should be a guild roll and guild banked.

BTW, we did a 5 man into ZG this evening and once we got the hang of it we began to do a good job killing trash mobs. Those whirling axe throwers are immune to stun once they start their spin. We killed 11 mobs and got 1 thorium lockbox, 1 bloodvine and 1 coin. Each mob killed gave 4 rep.

I got the prerequisite quest completed to summon the Fish boss, Gahz'ranka. Now I only need to fish up 5 Zulian Mudskunks to complete the lure to summon him. My first stab at it has shown me that it is easier said than done.

[VoiceMan]

Just by way of an F.Y.I., I had a very short chat with Mistique last night from LS, and he assured me he's been busy organizing things for ZG on Friday, and they're looking forward to it. It appears that we'll have a good class mix, better than our last attempt at ZG, which will help. I also suggested to him that if any of the LS folks were having trouble with TS to give one of us a holler. Just thought I'd pass along my impression that everything looks good for Friday. :D

[Alram]

I have a problem I need help with that relates to grouping with LS.
I have sent them 9 emails. (Everything of importance, fortunately has been replicated here in the forum.) I use Thunderbird v1.02. I created a subfolder to my Sent folder entitled Sent to LS. I dragged and dropped all 9 sent items into the subfolder, and now when I open them they are totally blank. How can I retrieve those emails? I am not closing Thunderbird just in case.
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:D I got the mail back thanks to a suggestion on the Mozillazine forum.

[Klaus]

I pointed out that gaining 1 level per day was possible, but then it was pointed out to me that given the amount of time Klaus can play vs. my play time it was improbable.
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My play time doesn't come anywhere close to Alram's. :)

I expect that I will still be 56 on Friday. 57 is possible, but it depends on what happens on wednesday and thursday. Either way, if you end up with 19 and would rather fill a slot with a 56 instead of leaving it empty, I'd be happy to come along. If you feel this would be a liability instead and don't want me along, I fully understand that too (and I in no way expect to have a place - getting one would be a bonus).