D3's difficulties get CNN coverage - again.

[ViralSpiral]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/tech/gamin...index.html

Interesting that things have gone this far. How the mighty have fallen.

[Hammerskjold]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/tech/gamin...index.html

Interesting that things have gone this far. How the mighty have fallen.

Maybe it's just me, but when I read this I feel maybe the reference was not about the Icarus myth, but the 8-bit NES game, "Kid Icarus".

Other players go the other route, thinking the game is "broken" because it is simply too hard. Forum poster "Themaceguy" describes what he called "Icarus hard," a reference to pushing the game's limits and being punished for it, like the Greek mythological figure who fell to his death after flying too close to the sun. It's an acceptable approach for him.

"Diablo III" is not Icarus hard, he said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Icarus

Then again it's CNN covering a video game. Reminds me of the time when a talking head seriously asks who is this 'Anonymous' haxx0r group, and are they aligned with the Taliban.

[Mavfin]

Then again it's CNN covering a video game. Reminds me of the time when a talking head seriously asks who is this 'Anonymous' haxx0r group, and are they aligned with the Taliban.

That was my first thought. CNN are such video game experts...

[ViralSpiral]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/tech/gamin...index.html

Interesting that things have gone this far. How the mighty have fallen.

Maybe it's just me, but when I read this I feel maybe the reference was not about the Icarus myth, but the 8-bit NES game, "Kid Icarus".

Other players go the other route, thinking the game is "broken" because it is simply too hard. Forum poster "Themaceguy" describes what he called "Icarus hard," a reference to pushing the game's limits and being punished for it, like the Greek mythological figure who fell to his death after flying too close to the sun. It's an acceptable approach for him.

"Diablo III" is not Icarus hard, he said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Icarus

Then again it's CNN covering a video game. Reminds me of the time when a talking head seriously asks who is this 'Anonymous' haxx0r group, and are they aligned with the Taliban.

Yeah, multiple people in their comment section pointed out the Icarus thing. Still, one has to wonder how much had to be going wrong before CNN got dragged into this.

[Jester]

Interesting that things have gone this far. How the mighty have fallen.

Is it just me, or have gamers become spoiled, entitled little brats? I've bitched plenty about various games in the past, but recently, it's been absurd. DIII. ME3. When Valve tried putting out Left 4 Dead 2, fans raised a big stink because they feared they'd no longer make loads of free content for the game they already have. Even Bioshock, a video game masterpiece, has somehow become more famous for what people found wrong with it. Games are getting metacritic bombed more and more.

Are we becoming impossible to please? Or am I just noticing it more?

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

Yeah, multiple people in their comment section pointed out the Icarus thing. Still, one has to wonder how much had to be going wrong before CNN got dragged into this.

Judging strictly from that article, it's more likely IMO, it's a slow news day at CNN.com.

The article reads to me only a shade better than the equivalent of sticking a microphone on the street and asking people what they think of the -insert local sports squadron- and their chances of winning the -big shiny series\trophy-.

Even then that might be pushing it. If this was the news hour, this article would probably be in the last 5 minutes in the 'fad\human interest\funny kitten youtube clip' section.

After the sports and weather, but before the last banter of the anchors and the final announcement of 'and that's the news for today, stay classy San Diego.'

[Tal]

Is it just me, or have gamers become spoiled, entitled little brats? I've bitched plenty about various games in the past, but recently, it's been absurd. DIII. ME3. When Valve tried putting out Left 4 Dead 2, fans raised a big stink because they feared they'd no longer make loads of free content for the game they already have. Even Bioshock, a video game masterpiece, has somehow become more famous for what people found wrong with it. Games are getting metacritic bombed more and more.

Are we becoming impossible to please? Or am I just noticing it more?

-Jester

This is just my opinion - but no I don't feel that's the case for me. I loved Diablo II. Never noticed a lot of the bugs, frustrations or cheese in the game until I started reading the forums on Yeggs Tavern and here. I just played the game because it was fun. It never felt impossible.

Diablo III comes along and...things feel a lot harder than I think they should be. I solo'd much of the game until Hell and then grouped up with folks like Bolty, Dragoon, Quark and Lissa. They got me through Hell and into Inferno. Bolty congratulated me and said something along the lines of "The true game begins".

The next morning I launched Inferno and started playing. While I got through the beginning quests - the first champ pack I ran into beat me down like I owed it money. I corpse ran a bit until I needed to repair and promptly logged out. That evening Bolty and a few of his buddies I'd played with in WoW helped me through to (I think) Skeleton King in Act 1.

At every stage of the game I felt like a hindurance to the party and that I wasn't carrying my weight. When rares dropped they were useless - even to classes that were in Hell difficulty. Bolty and others gifted me with some upgrades (of which I am grateful) but my survivability in Inferno and more importantly, my dps, remained the same. I felt like I couldn't carry my weight and was being boosted through.

That night I logged off and while I had fun playing with Bolty and others...I realized I just wasn't enjoying Diablo III. Every fight I felt like I was in over my head - even in late Act 4 Hell. I couldn't solo effectively, and I hated being the lowest dps in the party on top of the guy that needed to be resurrected after every boss fight - to which there were no useful upgrades. The time/frustration vs fun/reward just wasn't there for me.

So I essentially quit. Occasionally I fire up the game and log in. Then I run into a bullshit combo on my DH like vortex/extra health on something that hits like a truck and I die a few times before killing it. And that's not fun. So I log back out - go over to WoW and either level another character, do dailies, or pvp for a bit. There I can piddle around for 30 minutes and progress on something.

Even when I go up against something that counters my class in pvp (hallo thar mr frostmage) - it doesn't match the frustration of many of the champ/elite packs in D3. I still have fun doing it and sometimes I can win.

[Elric of Grans]

Maybe it's just me, but when I read this I feel maybe the reference was not about the Icarus myth, but the 8-bit NES game, "Kid Icarus".

No, I read that original thread. The poster was using the legend. They were describing the difficulty of the previous games as getting as close to the sun as you could without dying. In other words, taking on as many enemies as you could without being killed.

[Archon_Wing]

Article was alright, but then it started quoting battle.net forum posts. And umm, yea.

[Hammerskjold]

No, I read that original thread. The poster was using the legend. They were describing the difficulty of the previous games as getting as close to the sun as you could without dying. In other words, taking on as many enemies as you could without being killed.

You're right, thanks for the correction. (Had to F5 b.net forum a couple of times, but it finally loaded for me.)

Just my own bias again though, when I think of Icarus the myth, my first image is him plummeting to the ground covered in melted wax and feather. Not kiting a high temperature range where his wax will still hold his wings together.

Or maybe I just played too much Kid Icarus.

[FireIceTalon]

Is it just me, or have gamers become spoiled, entitled little brats? I've bitched plenty about various games in the past, but recently, it's been absurd. DIII. ME3. When Valve tried putting out Left 4 Dead 2, fans raised a big stink because they feared they'd no longer make loads of free content for the game they already have. Even Bioshock, a video game masterpiece, has somehow become more famous for what people found wrong with it. Games are getting metacritic bombed more and more.

Are we becoming impossible to please? Or am I just noticing it more?

-Jester

This is just my opinion - but no I don't feel that's the case for me. I loved Diablo II. Never noticed a lot of the bugs, frustrations or cheese in the game until I started reading the forums on Yeggs Tavern and here. I just played the game because it was fun. It never felt impossible. DH was my first class also and it left a sour taste in my mouth about the game overall, but the other classes were fun to play before Inferno.

Diablo III comes along and...things feel a lot harder than I think they should be. I solo'd much of the game until Hell and then grouped up with folks like Bolty, Dragoon, Quark and Lissa. They got me through Hell and into Inferno. Bolty congratulated me and said something along the lines of "The true game begins".

The next morning I launched Inferno and started playing. While I got through the beginning quests - the first champ pack I ran into beat me down like I owed it money. I corpse ran a bit until I needed to repair and promptly logged out. That evening Bolty and a few of his buddies I'd played with in WoW helped me through to (I think) Skeleton King in Act 1.

At every stage of the game I felt like a hindurance to the party and that I wasn't carrying my weight. When rares dropped they were useless - even to classes that were in Hell difficulty. Bolty and others gifted me with some upgrades (of which I am grateful) but my survivability in Inferno and more importantly, my dps, remained the same. I felt like I couldn't carry my weight and was being boosted through.

That night I logged off and while I had fun playing with Bolty and others...I realized I just wasn't enjoying Diablo III. Every fight I felt like I was in over my head - even in late Act 4 Hell. I couldn't solo effectively, and I hated being the lowest dps in the party on top of the guy that needed to be resurrected after every boss fight - to which there were no useful upgrades. The time/frustration vs fun/reward just wasn't there for me.

So I essentially quit. Occasionally I fire up the game and log in. Then I run into a bullshit combo on my DH like vortex/extra health on something that hits like a truck and I die a few times before killing it. And that's not fun. So I log back out - go over to WoW and either level another character, do dailies, or pvp for a bit. There I can piddle around for 30 minutes and progress on something.

Even when I go up against something that counters my class in pvp (hallo thar mr frostmage) - it doesn't match the frustration of many of the champ/elite packs in D3. I still have fun doing it and sometimes I can win.

It is very rare that me and you agree, but in this case, my experience overall has been the same when it comes to Inferno. Normal-Hell is fine.

I've managed to overcome the brick wall that was Inferno Act 2 (had to have some help at the end from Archon with ZK, but I did the beginning up until then ENTIRELY on my own), but it wasn't really fun for me either. It was quite tedious. Now, I'm at Act 3 which is an even bigger wall, and though I suppose I could sludge through it and eventually beat it, I really have no desire to. It will be much more of a chore than it is fun. I've made huge gear upgrades in the last couple weeks, but I'm really in no place to do so anymore for a while, in either AH. OFC, it is sad that I have to even use a AH to begin with to improve my character. I wouldn't mind using it here and there for a slot that I wasn't having luck with, but almost all my gear on my Wiz is AH purchased except for a few slots, because drops are really bad, and crafting is too random and expensive to be of any use. Now, even for a small upgrade, it would cost a fortune, because the items I use now are fairly high quality but the game is still outrageously tedious at this point.

I think you should try and roll a different class besides DH, though. DH is flawed and very difficult to play even on nightmare and hell, but everything else has been fairly balanced before Inferno (Barb actually feels OP, Monk, WD, and Wiz are just about right).

[LochnarITB]

The last paragraph hit home for me. I am having fun. I don't care that Inferno hands me my butt early on with nasty affixes on the baddies. I pound at it until I can't afford to anymore and I go back and farm for more gear and gold. Then I do it again.

I don't expect it to be WoW. I don't expect an "end game" that is anything more than running different classes or doing different areas better or even self limiting a toon (read variant), although I don't think I will go so far as hardcore.

I try to keep myself from reading all the back and forth about what is wrong and how it isn't being fixed fast enough, if at all. I do end up reading them, though, and I realize something. There is so much passion because people see something they want to love but it has disappointed them and they can't get past it. They want it to come around so that they once again can love it enough to ignore any remaining faults.

I also relate my feelings about it to real life. Have you ever been with someone you just loved being around? You know they have rough edges but you see fun times while doing your best to work through those rough edges. Everyone around you keeps telling you what is wrong with them and they wonder why you keep hanging around. It makes you a bit sad and it weighs on you but you are loyal and you hang in there and you hope the rough edges smooth out so others can see what you see.

I see fun and I sincerely hope things come around so you all can have fun too.


[edit] As I was posting this, Final Jeopardy was asked. The clue was "In 1989 he said 'You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.'" The answer was Steve Jobs but I think Blizzard did just that, they gave customers what they thought the customers said they wanted and then the customers wanted something different when they finally got it.

[ViralSpiral]

I don't ever remember asking for WoW's original level cap, WoW's enrage timers, or WoW's cooldowns in my Diablo games. I don't remember any of us asking for these things. Actually about the only thing in D3 I remember anyone asking for was instanced loot.

[Jester]

This is just my opinion - but no I don't feel that's the case for me. I loved Diablo II. Never noticed a lot of the bugs, frustrations or cheese in the game until I started reading the forums on Yeggs Tavern and here. I just played the game because it was fun. It never felt impossible.

Quite right: DII was very easy. Maybe that's one of the big differences, what I call the Heroes of Might and Magic effect. People really like doing repetitive, easy things that give them shiny rewards. Ramp up the difficulty too much, and you lose that constant stream of satisfying rewards. I think this is a large part of WoW's appeal.

That night I logged off and while I had fun playing with Bolty and others...I realized I just wasn't enjoying Diablo III. Every fight I felt like I was in over my head - even in late Act 4 Hell. I couldn't solo effectively, and I hated being the lowest dps in the party on top of the guy that needed to be resurrected after every boss fight - to which there were no useful upgrades. The time/frustration vs fun/reward just wasn't there for me.

That sounds like two things: First, you can progress further than your gear can support on skill, which then leads you to unfun challenges. The answer should be to go back to where it was easier and grind some gear, but perhaps that doesn't appeal?

Second, its' the relative difference between you and other players ... was that not a feature of other Diablo games, if you were playing with someone with overwhelmingly better gear than you? Without squashing the power curve, Blizzard can't eliminate the differences between players in a progression game. Perhaps the exponential curving of power is contributing to this - is there too much power to be gained from the synergies on high level gear?

-Jester

[BellaStrega]

I don't agree that gamers are "too entitled." I am actually more concerned about how many people feel that asserting "I am not satisfied with this product" is an act of unearned entitlement. I never agreed with "the customer is always right" but I think this other complaint swings too far the other way.

And I disagreed with many of the complaints about both Diablo III and ME3.

[Quark]

I don't agree that gamers are "too entitled." I am actually more concerned about how many people feel that asserting "I am not satisfied with this product" is an act of unearned entitlement. I never agreed with "the customer is always right" but I think this other complaint swings too far the other way.

And I disagreed with many of the complaints about both Diablo III and ME3.

Emphasis mine, this isn't our point. People made death threats to BioWare employees. People said they were going to sue Blizzard. That is hardly "I am not satisfied". They are going much, much further than you allow for what, at its core, gives you fun for at least 60 hours.

[FoxBat]

Emphasis mine, this isn't our point. People made death threats to BioWare employees. People said they were going to sue Blizzard. That is hardly "I am not satisfied". They are going much, much further than you allow for what, at its core, gives you fun for at least 60 hours.

I agree with the ridiculousness above. It's even continuing in this very thread. The point of CNN isn't whether or not D3 surpasses D2, it's why so much gamer rage (not just dissatisfaction) is generated by an otherwise decent game falling short of sky high expectations. The ME3 endings were exactly the same.

On the other hand, I think this is what companies deserve for relying on tried and true IPs to push out sequel after sequel. The same game stamped with a different name and developer wouldn't have caused a stir at all... it also likely wouldn't have sold half as many units.

[Tal]

Quite right: DII was very easy. Maybe that's one of the big differences, what I call the Heroes of Might and Magic effect. People really like doing repetitive, easy things that give them shiny rewards. Ramp up the difficulty too much, and you lose that constant stream of satisfying rewards. I think this is a large part of WoW's appeal.

Some times you just wanna go through an area killing everything you see.

That sounds like two things: First, you can progress further than your gear can support on skill, which then leads you to unfun challenges. The answer should be to go back to where it was easier and grind some gear, but perhaps that doesn't appeal?

I would have no problem doing so if the drops weren't so maddeningly random and in many cases useless. Like getting a barbarian weapon with Intellect on it.

Second, its' the relative difference between you and other players ... was that not a feature of other Diablo games, if you were playing with someone with overwhelmingly better gear than you? Without squashing the power curve, Blizzard can't eliminate the differences between players in a progression game. Perhaps the exponential curving of power is contributing to this - is there too much power to be gained from the synergies on high level gear?

-Jester

It wasn't as noticeable in D1 and D2. If I got separated from my friends I could still kill things before they killed me - not so much in D3 Inferno.

Perhaps I'm not made of stern enough material. I know the skill level is there but the idea of going and grinding for awhile in a previous act just isn't attractive to me.

[LochnarITB]

I don't ever remember asking for WoW's original level cap, WoW's enrage timers, or WoW's cooldowns in my Diablo games. I don't remember any of us asking for these things. Actually about the only thing in D3 I remember anyone asking for was instanced loot.

Sorry, I never got the memo that you had been selected as spokesman for all gamers interested in D3. My apologies.

In fact, the big noise, even pre-beta, was "too easy". Blizzard's interpretation and reaction was rightfully, "fine, we'll give you harder". This gets you a thrown on, next to impossible, Inferno and mechanics such as enrage timers. The customers' reactions have clearly been "no, no, no, that's not what we wanted."

Cooldowns? How do you keep skills from being ridiculous when spammable? Necessity, IMHO. And level cap. I don't like it but it does make sense. A level cap allows for future content, with associated raising of the level cap, without that content being already "too easy". And there we come back around to what gamers did say.

[FireIceTalon]

Blizz has made it clear before that they do not intend to raise the level cap. But then again, it is Blizz, so that isn't saying much. Either way, the level cap is of little concern to me, so I'm indifferent to it regardless.

Cooldowns. I'm pretty mixed on these. As I stated in another thread, I think super powerful abilities like WotB, Archon, or Fetish Army should have cooldowns (perhaps shorter than what they are, though I find myself using these skills for only the nastiest of opponents anyway). My problem with the CD's in D3 though, is that ALMOST EVERYTHING has one. It is quite annoying. CD's should only be reserved for the most powerful abilities that would otherwise make a player invincible or close to it if they were able to spam them. Monsters on the other hand, have no CD on spamming their traits, and this is based on a design philosophy of "monsters over powered, players underpowered", and that has never what Diablo has been about. Nor should it be, in my opinion. While monsters should be able to easily kill players (with the difficulty ramping up as you progress, as in previous Diablo games), they should never actually be MORE POWERFUL than the players relative to where they are, and in D3 they are. It's just a fundamentally bad design philosophy. Reason is, most gamers, especially in this genre, like the feeling of having powerful chars (at least in the endgame), and that is pretty removed from D3's Inferno. When I played Hell/Hell on D1 with my chars, I knew I could still easily die even with top notch gear (it was rare, but possible) if I wasn't careful, but I never felt that monsters were actually more powerful than I was. It was mostly their sheer numbers and ability to inflict big damage that made them dangerous. This is a good formula, and D3's dev team really needs to go back to the drawing board and take notes from what the old Blizz North team did.

I really don't care for most of the monster traits in this game, but if they must be there, balance them! And I dont just mean not allowing some affixes to spawn with others (like Vortex not spawning with Arcane Sentry), but give the monsters in Inferno a more varied difficulty with them. Champions should be limited to 2 affixes, Purples get up to 3 affixes, and only Rares get 4. Or something along those lines. I don't went every single elite I come across to have 4 traits and be a 10 min fight. Also, certain monsters that have natural abilities with their base monster type shouldn't spawn with certain affixes - this means Spiderlings, Soul Lashers, Imps, and Leapers cannot spawn with the "fast" trait.

Everyone here should know my thoughts about enrage timers by now, heh.