D3's difficulties get CNN coverage - again.

[Quark]

Monsters on the other hand, have no CD on spamming their traits

Why is it that every time I see one of your posts, I read until I see some inane false statement and give up reading in frustration?

[ViralSpiral]

I don't ever remember asking for WoW's original level cap, WoW's enrage timers, or WoW's cooldowns in my Diablo games. I don't remember any of us asking for these things. Actually about the only thing in D3 I remember anyone asking for was instanced loot.

Sorry, I never got the memo that you had been selected as spokesman for all gamers interested in D3. My apologies.

In fact, the big noise, even pre-beta, was "too easy". Blizzard's interpretation and reaction was rightfully, "fine, we'll give you harder". This gets you a thrown on, next to impossible, Inferno and mechanics such as enrage timers. The customers' reactions have clearly been "no, no, no, that's not what we wanted."

Cooldowns? How do you keep skills from being ridiculous when spammable? Necessity, IMHO. And level cap. I don't like it but it does make sense. A level cap allows for future content, with associated raising of the level cap, without that content being already "too easy". And there we come back around to what gamers did say.

Right, because I claimed to be a spokeperson, aside from the fact that I immediately said "I don't remember -any- of us asking for those things."

What amuses me is the amount of overt hostility and snippiness on these forums which was rarely a trait of the old days, except when we had a flood of goofballs during the LoD beta. You can tell people are on edge here, it reflects in lots of posts now.

Anyhow, sure, it might have been too easy, but there is more than one way to increase difficulty. I DON'T CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR ANYONE ELSE, but I would have personally preferred a challenge more based on strategy, tactics, nuanced and skilled play, skill selections, use of terrain, and cerebral engagement then just using really huge numbers (Inferno numbers, both player and monster), and fake difficulty by taking options off the table (Jailer while you're caught in a damage pool that just instantly opened up under your feet) - unavoidable damage, one-shots, and other lazy decisions.

Maybe this isn't the genre for that kind of tactical engagement, but you could certainly achieve an equilibrium like that in D1 and 2, even if it required self-imposed restrictions in order to bring player power down to the level where tactics against enemies are actually useful. We don't get that here - it's almost entirely gear checks and aside from a few new elite affixes on higher difficulties, nothing changes except bigger numbers flying around. Things are tougher, stronger, or faster because of some bigger numbers somewhere. There's not new AI routines - and in fact some enemies get easier because they don't use the abilities they have intelligently; they'll knockback you out of damage pools or wall you off from their minions and thus actually save you from incoming damage. Vortex you close to them out of their mortar range.

It's feast or famine gameplay; either you have the gear and come up against easy/dumb opponents, or you get smashed with little to nothing you can do about it. It's not interesting, there's no variety, and once you have the gear to make it to the end, there's nothing to do but start new toons or farm gear you don't need because you already beat everything. I'll probably get every class to sixty just to say I did, if my patience holds out. Maybe there will be more to do by then, and maybe not. PvP's not really an option unless I get much better internet, though, so I'll need something else.

[FireIceTalon]

Monsters on the other hand, have no CD on spamming their traits

Why is it that every time I see one of your posts, I read until I see some inane false statement and give up reading in frustration?

Because the truth hurts? *shrugs*

Its a given fact that monsters spam their traits in Inferno - this is self-evident if you have ever played there.

[Quark]

Okay, prove it. Show me a video of one monster spamming abilities. Note: one monster. A pack of champions is not "one monster".

[FireIceTalon]

Um, what else was I possibly referring to besides elite packs? Cause yes, I can easily prove this a thousand times over - but it would be silly for me to do so, since you can see for yourself by making a game.

[Archon_Wing]

When people praise old school games for difficulty. It was mostly the kind that had unforgiving mechanics but provided precision control and intuitive gameplay so that every time you died, it was your fault. If you could beat the game on your first try, no matter how unlikely it was, it was a fair challenge.

However, it should be noted that only a minority of these games actually did that and get remembered, while the rest were just thrown into the trash bin because of inspid, poorly thoughtout design. It is not enough that a game should be challenging, but the challenge should be well thought out. You can't have this when you don't test said challenge out. Even if the designers can't beat it, they should have at least visualized concepts. So just making the game "harder" isn't going to solve the "easy" problem. Any random person can add an extra dight to everything and call it a day. That's not a particularly exciting concept, especially if the numbers aren't balanced.

[Elric of Grans]

Um, what else was I possibly referring to besides elite packs? Cause yes, I can easily prove this a thousand times over - but it would be silly for me to do so, since you can see for yourself by making a game.

Red, you are making an idiot of yourself. They do have cooldowns, and this is a very well known fact. Their cooldowns are quite short compared to most player ones, but still present. If you pay even the slightest attention, you will notice there is a consistent gap between one use of the ability and the next. Blizard have also made comments about `Elite ability cooldowns' as further, indisputable proof. You know that adage about not speaking lest you prove yourself a fool?

[Lissa]

I don't agree that gamers are "too entitled." I am actually more concerned about how many people feel that asserting "I am not satisfied with this product" is an act of unearned entitlement. I never agreed with "the customer is always right" but I think this other complaint swings too far the other way.

And I disagreed with many of the complaints about both Diablo III and ME3.

Emphasis mine, this isn't our point. People made death threats to BioWare employees. People said they were going to sue Blizzard. That is hardly "I am not satisfied". They are going much, much further than you allow for what, at its core, gives you fun for at least 60 hours.

Yes and no. Death threats close the line by a large margin, but litigation not so much if the product does not contain what the company said it contains (false advertising). This is why the BBB said that consumers had a possible case for ME3 due to BioWare claiming that your actions up to the ending affected the ending (which was seen that it really didn't, even the updated ending). So, litigation should be a possiblity when the producer of the product says the product has something and really doesn't (false advertising).

[ViralSpiral]

When people praise old school games for difficulty. It was mostly the kind that had unforgiving mechanics but provided precision control and intuitive gameplay so that every time you died, it was your fault. If you could beat the game on your first try, no matter how unlikely it was, it was a fair challenge.

However, it should be noted that only a minority of these games actually did that and get remembered, while the rest were just thrown into the trash bin because of inspid, poorly thoughtout design. It is not enough that a game should be challenging, but the challenge should be well thought out. You can't have this when you don't test said challenge out. Even if the designers can't beat it, they should have at least visualized concepts. So just making the game "harder" isn't going to solve the "easy" problem. Any random person can add an extra dight to everything and call it a day. That's not a particularly exciting concept, especially if the numbers aren't balanced.

Ninja Gaiden flashbacks...oh man...oh man...that game was unforgiving of mistakes. It could be done, of course, but yeah, it wasn't very buggy or anything. Any time you messed up was your fault. I don't mind dying to my own fault. That's what happens when I screw up. Dying because other people are bad at maths/lag/bugs is something else though.

[FireIceTalon]

Um, what else was I possibly referring to besides elite packs? Cause yes, I can easily prove this a thousand times over - but it would be silly for me to do so, since you can see for yourself by making a game.

Red, you are making an idiot of yourself. They do have cooldowns, and this is a very well known fact. Their cooldowns are quite short compared to most player ones, but still present. If you pay even the slightest attention, you will notice there is a consistent gap between one use of the ability and the next. Blizard have also made comments about `Elite ability cooldowns' as further, indisputable proof. You know that adage about not speaking lest you prove yourself a fool?

And you are making a tool of yourself. Because everything Blizz says is the gospel, right? Speak for your fucking self before calling anyone else an idiot homie.

I'm pretty sure Frozen and Waller don't have cooldowns, since I have seen them chain cast it and spam it countless times on Inferno. And EVEN if there IS a CD, it is completely meaningless to the point that it makes a shit bit of difference on the game mechanics. Therefore, you can slice it anyway you like - but my ultimate point still stands, and there is NOTHING you can say to refute it, because I am RIGHT. You are not. It is that simple.

---

When people praise old school games for difficulty. It was mostly the kind that had unforgiving mechanics but provided precision control and intuitive gameplay so that every time you died, it was your fault. If you could beat the game on your first try, no matter how unlikely it was, it was a fair challenge.

However, it should be noted that only a minority of these games actually did that and get remembered, while the rest were just thrown into the trash bin because of inspid, poorly thoughtout design. It is not enough that a game should be challenging, but the challenge should be well thought out. You can't have this when you don't test said challenge out. Even if the designers can't beat it, they should have at least visualized concepts. So just making the game "harder" isn't going to solve the "easy" problem. Any random person can add an extra dight to everything and call it a day. That's not a particularly exciting concept, especially if the numbers aren't balanced.

Ninja Gaiden flashbacks...oh man...oh man...that game was unforgiving of mistakes. It could be done, of course, but yeah, it wasn't very buggy or anything. Any time you messed up was your fault. I don't mind dying to my own fault. That's what happens when I screw up. Dying because other people are bad at maths/lag/bugs is something else though.

NG1 was a bitch! I remember wanting to throw the game system against the wall, after taking a sledge hammer to it, trying to beat that game, and others. I get the same feeling playing Inferno on D3, ironcially enough....ah wait, thats because both games rely on the same bs, cheezy mechanics/artificial difficulty. But D3 is probably even worse for a variety of reasons and circumstances, though it has nothing on Ghosts N' Goblins - quite possibly the worst video game in the history of video games.

[Hammerskjold]

And you are making a tool of yourself. Because everything Blizz says is the gospel, right? Speak for your fucking self before calling anyone else an idiot homie.

I'm pretty sure Frozen and Waller don't have cooldowns, since I have seen them chain cast it and spam it countless times on Inferno. And EVEN if there IS a CD, it is completely meaningless to the point that it makes a shit bit of difference on the game mechanics. Therefore, you can slice it anyway you like - but my ultimate point still stands, and there is NOTHING you can say to refute it, because I am RIGHT. You are not. It is that simple.

And behold, The Crimson Comrade has spoken!

Oh wait, I mean, jackassery has been reeee-ported.

Yeesh. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Archon_Wing]

They most certainly have a cooldown. However, because there are multiple members of the same mob, they can and will make it look like a near infinite chain.

The worst offender is nightmarish since it lasts a bit and is a proc apparently.

[FireIceTalon]

And what is the cooldown for each monster? 1, MAYBE 2 seconds tops? ROFL.....that hardly can be called a CD, as they still spam the ever-loving shit out of it to the point where you want to go through the screen, grab the monsters by their necks and say "stop it, now!!!!", and then do the same thing to the dev team afterward....by the time one monster's cooldown starts, another's has finished, so they can just keep chain casting you in a endless pattern - effectively making any CD they might have utterly pointless. Pure cheese and lazy mechanics. Their CD's should be as long or longer than ours - this goes back to my original point that monsters should not be more powerful than the gamers char is.

I find Frozen to be the worst overall, because you can't do ANYTHING when that happens (you cant even use a potion). Nightmarish and Waller are quite bad too, especially if they are together.

[FireIceTalon]

And you are making a tool of yourself. Because everything Blizz says is the gospel, right? Speak for your fucking self before calling anyone else an idiot homie.

I'm pretty sure Frozen and Waller don't have cooldowns, since I have seen them chain cast it and spam it countless times on Inferno. And EVEN if there IS a CD, it is completely meaningless to the point that it makes a shit bit of difference on the game mechanics. Therefore, you can slice it anyway you like - but my ultimate point still stands, and there is NOTHING you can say to refute it, because I am RIGHT. You are not. It is that simple.

And behold, The Crimson Comrade has spoken!

Oh wait, I mean, jackassery has been reeee-ported.

Yeesh. This is why we can't have nice things.

LMAO. Woe is me, I'm shaking in my boots. I guess I'm supposed to put my caring face on now, right? My bad... Report it, copy and paste it, hell, take a freaking picture if you like and hang it on your wall, I couldn't care less. You seriously can't be any older than 7 - and thats being generous......"waaaaaaaaahhhhh, Red you are so mean, I'm telling my mommy on you!!!!". Loser. You have much growing up to do, podna^^

[MongoJerry]

I find Frozen to be the worst overall, because you can't do ANYTHING when that happens (you cant even use a potion). Nightmarish and Waller are quite bad too, especially if they are together.

My understanding is that every class has at least one ability that can be used when Frozen and/or can break Frozen. In the Wizard's case, you can use Diamond Skin to absorb damage while you're Frozen and Mirror Images to break Frozen, if you wish.

And that's how the game should be. It's fine to have difficult mechanics, provided that the player is armed with tools to counter or combat those mechanics. The game should expect that every player has 2-3 active defensive skills plus some sort of aura/armor and 2-3 offensive skills to cycle through depending on the situation. However, it may be that the skill counters versus mob mechanics balance isn't there, yet. It sounds like the Wizard has the best selection of useful defensive abilities (Diamond Skin, Teleport, Frost Nova, Mirror Images, Wave of Force) that counter mob mechanics. Other classes (especially Demon Hunters) should have their defensive skills improved to match that kind of defensive skill selection. Also, elite packs should probably have their cooldowns on their special abilities increased a little to take into account the fact that they spawn in large packs. Or perhaps packs should have some kind of "pack global cooldown" triggered when a member casts a special attack.

[Archon_Wing]

Despite RR's hyperbole, the point was that the cooldowns, as present, are not worth a damn, and need to be longer. Whether or not there are cooldowns or not atm isn't really the point. They can and will outpace your own counter cooldowns.

He could have just added "virtually" and we wouldn't have to delve into these "no u" arguments.

No trait in itself is impossible. The interaction between the base monster and other traits though, is what's causing the problem.

[FireIceTalon]

I just tried the Diamond Skin vs Frozen at Captian Daltyn - the Diamond Skin WILL absorb the damage as normal, but it didn't break the freeze either. Although the DS lasts longer than Frozen does, the fact you can be chain casted on means the DS will only save you so much - and keep in mind, Frozen STACKS...so if more ice bombs explode while you are frozen, you will get immobilized again. I agree that Wiz probably has the best overall defensive abilities to counter these mob traits (Barb and Monk are pretty decent here as well), but there is still a huge imbalance here. The fact I am outnumbered at least 3-1 per mob (sometimes 4-1), and the fact most of these mobs have insane damage and a asinine amount of health on top of them just having the traits is a challenge in itself. Not bitching and moaning here, just telling it like it is. I want a genuine challenge in combat - not to be cheezed. Of course, some of the traits are the opposite problem - they are too easy. I mean, if I come across vampiric, jailer, electrified, and missile dampening...I can't help but laugh, as the only way such a pack would be hard is if the base monster type is a difficult one (like Soul Lashers, if I'm playing a ranged char, then ANY elite pack of these will be difficult). But usually, it is the former problem - though neither is really preferable over the other.

We are kidding ourselves if we think Inferno will ever be tuned properly though. Blizz wants it very hard and tedious because that 15% cut in the AH is more important than how much fun their customers are having with their product. Snide as this comment may be, it is the truth.

[MongoJerry]

In the Wizard's case, you can use Diamond Skin to absorb damage while you're Frozen and Mirror Images to break Frozen, if you wish.

I just tried the Diamond Skin vs Frozen at Captian Daltyn - the Diamond Skin WILL absorb the damage as normal, but it didn't break the freeze either.

Reading comprehension is a good skill to learn.

By the way, another counter to Frozen is to teleport to a safe spot so that you don't get Frozen in the first place.

[Bolty]

LMAO. Woe is me, I'm shaking in my boots. I guess I'm supposed to put my caring face on now, right? My bad... Report it, copy and paste it, hell, take a freaking picture if you like and hang it on your wall, I couldn't care less. You seriously can't be any older than 7 - and thats being generous......"waaaaaaaaahhhhh, Red you are so mean, I'm telling my mommy on you!!!!". Loser. You have much growing up to do, podna^^

Stop. You're digging your own grave here and looking foolish, to boot.

[FireIceTalon]

Hardly. I'm not the one running around the forum tattle tailing because someone made a post I didn't like. Guess I just have thicker skin than that

Also, I think Elric can reply and/or report me on his own if he has a problem with me, he doesn't need Hammer to be his PR tool.