Is using stealth an exploit?

[Drasca]

I wouldn't do it, because it trivializes the game into endless "Foothills", or "Mephisto" runs to get phat lewt.  Why would I pay for monotony?
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Why indeed? Why pay for monotomy of killing the same mobs over and over which you can easily do in a balanced raid?

Stealth is more exciting when there's skill involved. Mjdoom cries foul at me using my class abilities to their fullest when it comes to solo-ing demon elites, but priests are cabable of other extraordinary feats that he's simply overlooking. Demonic mastery is warlock's signature feature. It can't be used everywhere, but when it can... oh boy does it shine.

Stealth can't be used against patrols that eat stealth -- i.e. the dogs in Dire Maul, but I'm simply jealous, not crying foul, of druid/rogue (or invisibility potion/nifty stopwatch) combinations that skilled players can do this. Sneak in, assasinate, sneak out. Why not? That's what rogues and druids are built for!

Until the drops are better, some of this assasination may be necessary.

[kandrathe]

I thought I made it clear that is was not cheating, but that grey area in circumventing the spirit of the game. An exploit that shortcuts to "winning". I recall blizzard has acted before in a prior nerf to stealth due to people bypassing intended content, and the recent limitatons on raid size to limit zerging. It's not like stealing money from the bank in monopoly, but perhaps more like having the psychic ability to know what the cards are before they are flipped over.

If they want to stop it they will add flare popping patrols in those "skipped" areas to prevent stealth, much to the consternation of those classes that rely on stealth.

We disagree.

[Quark]

If they want to stop it they will add flare popping patrols in those "skipped" areas to prevent stealth, much to the consternation of those classes that rely on stealth.
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Every time I see a dog in BRD or Dire Maul, I get frustrated. Rogues have the only CC (If I'm remembering correctly) that can't be applied in battle. And those damn dogs prevent us from applying it. You can use opening moves in battles with stealth-seers, but it's quite annoying because you have to let all the mobs aggro first, then position afterwards.

[Occhidiangela]

I thought I made it clear that is was not cheating, but that grey area in circumventing the spirit of the game.  [right][snapback]73553[/snapback][/right]

I find your and Sir Die a lot's using "spirit of the game" argument to be inverted logic. Spirit of the game seems to me that each class has its strengths and its weaknesses. In some settings, less brute force and more stealth is how one solves the problem.

Besides the matter of controlling the interface to ensure the Stealth features are used without gooning it up, it seems to me right and proper that players who can access Stealth abilities are able to sneak deep into the heart of enemy territory to assasinate a boss . . . in some scenarios, not all.

Think role playing - ish, and consider what an Assassin is? What is a cat burgler? What can a beast master do to get the most out of his shapechanging ability? The rogue in many RPG's, and in this one, is the base class for the assassin sub specialty. But every class has multiple skill trees. No one is a one skill wonder.

Can the Rogue-Druid team sneak into all raids, and in all cases? In all instances?

If the feeling is that the loot is "unbalanced" for the challenge, . . . it may be in that setting, and maybe Blizz would adjust the Drop rates if this gets abused. We shall see.

I don't think Blizz, or anyone, can "perfectly" balance a game. Any game. Appealing to the spirit of the game strikes me as the position to be on contra your argument. Sometimes, sneaking is the right answer. Take it from a long time D & D thief class player. Sometimes, sneaking comes up short, and the Hammer is needed. :)
Occhi

[Guest]

"Spirit of the game" is a meaningless catch all phrase. Its allows devs to make a rule against anything if they feel the need.
But as long as the devs are focusing on quality game play play its important they have a way to stop something that hurts the game over all quickly especially for problems that are hard to program out of the game.


My point is "spirit of the game" a good tool for devs but a ridiculous arbitrary argument basis for a gamer to use.

[kandrathe]

I agree that "Spirit of the game" is vague. I'll try to be clearer in what I mean.

The instances are designed to be a team oriented challenge taking a certain amount of time resulting in a just reward. I'm afraid messing with the balanced formula will result in game design consequences that no one will like. I would love the designers to craft instance scenarios for thiefs where sneaking is rewarded, making the thief useful more for their craftiness. As far as I can tell the only "designed" instance use of stealth is for delivering sap or backstab. There are some rogue quests that require non-brute force, but the bulk of the game still comes down to shoot, loot and scoot.

I just see this as another beginning of the "players find and abuse exploit / game designers nerf " cycle that transformed Diablo II from a game I enjoyed to one I will probably never play again.

[Occhidiangela]

I agree that "Spirit of the game" is vague.  I'll try to be clearer in what I mean.   

SNIP

There are some rogue quests that require non-brute force, but the bulk of the game still comes down to shoot, loot and scoot.

I just see this as another beginning of the "players find and abuse exploit / game designers nerf " cycle that transformed Diablo II from a game I enjoyed to one I will probably never play again.
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Loot and scoot. Aye.

As for D II, it can still be enjoyed, but to do so IMO one has to enter the Dark Side and become Variant Scum™. Beware the dark side! :rolleyes:

Occhi

[Sir_Die_alot]

People seem to be taking my position to be that rogues should not have stealth because sneeking is bad. On the contrary, if this was just a party of rogues I think that would be fine, because a party of rogues would really have their hands full and need some real teamwork to kill the bosses that would give them a useable drop. As I said in my original post I belive the problem is with druids being able to stealth. With this, you can sneak a tank a healer and a damage dealer into any area and bypass everything else. The ability to slip the "holy trinity" to the end of an instance is what I belive is against "the spirit of the game", not simply that a class can stealth around.

On a side note multiple people, some who I respect, have gotten rather defensive to the point of personal attacks on a topic that easily could and should have stayed civil. Attacking things like using the term "spirit of the game" just on the merits that it is a trite statement is feebler than I have come to expect from the LL. I've been reading the official WoW forums lately for the few gems that pop up and this reads a little too much like the average shaman forum post.

Occhi was the only one to try to have a rational counter debate so here is my reply to that.

I find your and Sir Die a lot's using "spirit of the game" argument to be inverted logic. Spirit of the game seems to me that each class has its strengths and its weaknesses. In some settings, less brute force and more stealth is how one solves the problem.

This is mine and (I think) kandrathe's point however, this isn't a "some settings" issue it is a much more flexable "I win" one. Remember druids can do more than heal. They can also tank effectively, especially when it's a single mob (IE bossfight). Blizzard has already done some changes to avoid other (IMO even more cheesy) meathods used to skip fighting from one end of the instance to the other, so I don't think saying that "the spirit of the game" is that you should need to kill most things between the start and finish is so extreme.

But then I thought Pindle and Mephisto runs were also cheesy, and while not cheating, against "the spirit of the game." *shrugs* :rolleyes: :whistling:

[Gurnsey]

... As I said in my original post I belive the problem is with druids being able to stealth. With this, you can sneak a tank a healer and a damage dealer into any area and bypass everything else. The ability to slip the "holy trinity" to the end of an instance is what I belive is against "the spirit of the game", not simply that a class can stealth around....
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I don't have enough experience with it, but I have the feeling that it's a LOT harder to sneak a druid through an instance than a rogue. Plus, if even one mob sees you on the way in, you're all dead - since the rest of the mobs haven't been cleared, you have nowhere to move and you are stuck with whatever bad situation you are in. I'm not sure how this figures into the overall question of 'is it right', but, if it's hard to sneak one druid in, and you need two (tank and healer), it's even harder, and at some point you might as well have just fought your way in, making the whole question of sneaking in more of a 'you could do it, but why?'

This whole discussion is quite interesting and I hope that it continues (civilly of course). It would make a good topic for a morals/ethics/philosphy/psychology paper, as I believe MMOG's are in general a good topic for this type of discussion - after all, it's a social interaction without any physical (visual/auditory) contact or physical consequences; not something you see in 'real life'.

[Treesh]

I don't have enough experience with it, but I have the feeling that it's a LOT harder to sneak a druid through an instance than a rogue. 
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Druids are generally detected earlier than rogues are, but if your rogue knows how to use distract properly, you can get that druid in anywhere a rogue can go. And if you can get one druid in that way, you can get two in. ;)

[Brista]

I don't have enough experience with it, but I have the feeling that it's a LOT harder to sneak a druid through an instance than a rogue.
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My druid is only level 36 so I can't speak about the higher end

Lower level dungeons are pretty easy to sneak through. I've gone through Wailing Caverns, Razorfen Kraul and Blackfathom Deeps to solo quests.

The basic rule of thumb for both Rogues and Druids seems to be that stuff higher than your level + your 0-5 ranks in the stealth-boosting talent has a chance of spotting you but otherwise things only actually break your stealth if you bump into them or go so close it's hard to be sure whether you bumped them or not

I did discover on one occasion that stealthing in an instance after an evening at the pub is unwise :blush:

[Occhidiangela]

Occhi was the only one to try to have a rational counter debate so here is my reply to that.
SNIP
But then I thought Pindle and Mephisto runs were also cheesy, and while not cheating, against "the spirit of the game." *shrugs*  :rolleyes:  :whistling:
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The ability to slip the "holy trinity" to the end of an instance is what I belive is against "the spirit of the game", not simply that a class can stealth around.

On point one: Thanks. :D

On point 3, I call it good tactics. /military talk on. Consider METT-T. Do an IPB on the enemy, and apply an asymmetrical approach to his strengths to hit the Center of Gravity, Decisive Point, or the High Value Unit with as little loss to yourself as possible. If Blizz changes the instances or skills, new IPB and METT-T analysis is required, then up with the best tactics you can to beat the High Value Unit. What I see you and kandarthe arguing is a cookie cutter approach to most instances, based on an attrition combat model with a combined arms combat team/task force. The Rogue-Druid more like a Special Forces infiltration. Light forces who, if detected, are toast, but who can apply a lot of combat power if they choose the nature of the engagement. Combined arms, and sustainability, are part of any smart tactical plan. /end military talk.

Apologies if I misunderstood your position.

On point 2: I am tempted to dig up the old thread where we discussed "what game are you playing?"

Once through every instance, and NO MORE, per character? Is that the Spirit of the Game? Or, this yet another case of "fun is where you find it?"

Item farming. What MMORPG is without it? I thought Pindle Runs were cheesy as well, but I would now and again do one while waiting for friends to meet me on a team game night, or if I had only 10-15 minutes to play. As Sirian used to cmment "Hit the Piñata, see what candy falls out." :) Of course, that was after I had spent a year and a half on a Rogue Variant Assassin going all the way through the game, bit by bit, "once through." IIRC, you and I did Hell Ancients together. It was the one quest that I had run out of patience with to do solo. :D

What about "end game" content? The game specifically adds instances. And will add instances, all with promises of better loot.

The game goes on forever, the END, unlike Diablo, never arrives by the Killing of Arthas, or what have you.

As I read it, the spirit of the game is to build your character, find the best stuff you can, and join in your Faction's forces to go scrap with the other faction. In military talk, train and equip the Militia with the best arms you can get your hands on, and send them to war, since the world is at war. The leveling and other bits are processes aimed toward that end.

Occhi

[Brista]

The ability to slip the "holy trinity" to the end of an instance is what I belive is against "the spirit of the game", not simply that a class can stealth

I am absolutely convinced that you and Kandrathe are simply wrong about "the spirit of the game"

The spirit of the game is that different people should be able to enjoy it in different ways. That's what attracts and sustains a large player base, what makes the game so appealing to the very diverse audiences in different countries

Most people find some way of getting satisfaction from this game that many other people would not particularly enjoy. Whether it's zerging, farming, pvp, or tactically perfect instancing people enjoy the game in different ways, as I'm sure the designers intended

Think back to D2. D2 is on the face of it a very similar game to WoW, but people never approached tactical challenges with a tank, healer, crowd control set-up: the holy trinity of everquest. Where do you get the idea that WoW has strict design intentions about group composition and tactics? It seems utterly contrary to good game design and broad appeal

[Tal]

I am absolutely convinced that you and Kandrathe are simply wrong about "the spirit of the game"

The spirit of the game is that different people should be able to enjoy it in different ways. That's what attracts and sustains a large player base, what makes the game so appealing to the very diverse audiences in different countries

Most people find some way of getting satisfaction from this game that many other people would not particularly enjoy. Whether it's zerging, farming, pvp, or tactically perfect instancing people enjoy the game in different ways, as I'm sure the designers intended

Think back to D2. D2 is on the face of it a very similar game to WoW, but people never approached tactical challenges with a tank, healer, crowd control set-up: the holy trinity of everquest. Where do you get the idea that WoW has strict design intentions about group composition and tactics? It seems utterly contrary to good game design and broad appeal
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You used to be able to bypass large (almost all) portions of Zul'Farrak by climbing the outside mountains and then walking across the tops of the walls and dropping down to just fight the mobs you wanted to fight. Blizzard has since removed this option citing that it wasn't how they designed instances to be done by groups. I imagine soon we will find mobs that have a greater chance to detect stealthed characters added to instances.

[Brista]

You used to be able to bypass large (almost all) portions of Zul'Farrak by climbing the outside mountains and then walking across the tops of the walls and dropping down to just fight the mobs you wanted to fight. Blizzard has since removed this option citing that it wasn't how they designed instances to be done by groups. I imagine soon we will find mobs that have a greater chance to detect stealthed characters added to instances.
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Is that it?

They tweaked an instance once, from which people are deriving that stealth is an exploit?

That's plain daft

Every instance I've been in so far allows groups to jump to cut corners. Every group I've been in has done this. So they tweaked Zul'Farrak because you could walk past every monster. Fair enough. Because, perhaps, it's unfair on characters with the stealth advantage that characters who don't have stealth should get the perk without having the ability

[Tal]

Is that it?

They tweaked an instance once, from which people are deriving that stealth is an exploit?

That's plain daft

Every instance I've been in so far allows groups to jump to cut corners. Every group I've been in has done this. So they tweaked Zul'Farrak because you could walk past every monster. Fair enough. Because, perhaps, it's unfair on characters with the stealth advantage that characters who don't have stealth should get the perk without having the ability
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In all honesty they tweaked Scarlet at least twice in Beta because of folks using Stealth to sneak past and just kill the bosses. In fact the problem was so bad that it necessitated the wiping of all gold and items on every character on the Beta realm. Blizzard talked about making the Monks see through stealth, and from what I understand had Mograine call for assistance if attacked.

My point is that there is a precedence that Blizzard has set that they don't want folks bypassing large sections of the Dungeon's content just to get to the Boss loot.

For that they want you to use a raid. :rolleyes: ;)

P.S. I'm not saying I believe stealthing to the end of an instance is an exploit or not. Simply pointing out that Blizzard has at times changed encounters so that content can't be skipped.

[Occhidiangela]

In all honesty they tweaked Scarlet at least twice in Beta because of folks using Stealth to sneak past and just kill the bosses. In fact the problem was so bad that it necessitated the wiping of all gold and items on every character on the Beta realm. Blizzard talked about making the Monks see through stealth, and from what I understand had Mograine call for assistance if attacked.

My point is that there is a precedence that Blizzard has set that they don't want folks bypassing large sections of the Dungeon's content just to get to the Boss loot.

For that they want you to use a raid.  :rolleyes:  ;)

P.S. I'm not saying I believe stealthing to the end of an instance is an exploit or not. Simply pointing out that Blizzard has at times changed encounters so that content can't be skipped.
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The normal direction this conversation now takes is

How big is the latest loophole that players have found to leap through, and should Blizzard do something about it?

The answer lies with Blizzard, as it has in each of the other games.

Anyone remember the early Warcraft III Beta exploit with Zepplins? Dropping a whole buncy of catapults/ballistas in someone's base in a Zepplin Rush? :lol: Game design will tend to show its loopholes over time.

WoW is maturing.

Occhi

[Sir_Die_alot]

On point 3, I call it good tactics.

I don't think that is in contention. I think its the whole point of the debate. It is good tactics, a tad too good. Remember, exploiting the manashield bug in d1 is also a good tactic when your goal is "I win."

What I see you and kandarthe arguing is a cookie cutter approach to most instances, based on an attrition combat model with a combined arms combat team/task force.

IMO when you have the balanced group (not a bunch of rogues, but a tank, healer, ect) this is what you should be doing. The sneak attack isn't something I would want obliterated from the game, but limitations on its viability I think is a good idea lest that become the way.

The Rogue-Druid more like a Special Forces infiltration.  Light forces who, if detected, are toast, but who can apply a lot of combat power if they choose the nature of the engagement.  Combined arms, and sustainability, are part of any smart tactical plan. /end military talk.

Special forces don't haul in a full med and heavy armor support unit do they? ;)

Apologies if I misunderstood your position.

I don't think we disagree so much on the points as the points of view. :) I see this is a cheesy exploit of Blizzard's lack of foresight, but again- NOT CHEATING. To use your Sirian analagy, I think this way is like whacking at the Piñata without the blindfold, or being spun around a few times, or whatever. Just a cheesy "I win" scenario. B)

[Brista]

In all honesty they tweaked Scarlet at least twice in Beta because of folks using Stealth to sneak past and just kill the bosses. In fact the problem was so bad that it necessitated the wiping of all gold and items on every character on the Beta realm. Blizzard talked about making the Monks see through stealth, and from what I understand had Mograine call for assistance if attacked.

My point is that there is a precedence that Blizzard has set that they don't want folks bypassing large sections of the Dungeon's content just to get to the Boss loot.

For that they want you to use a raid.  :rolleyes:  ;)

P.S. I'm not saying I believe stealthing to the end of an instance is an exploit or not. Simply pointing out that Blizzard has at times changed encounters so that content can't be skipped.
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Ah ok, thanks Tal, that makes a lot more sense to me now

I still don't think that stealth classes using stealth is an exploit but I can see how the debate arose

[Occhidiangela]

I don't think that is in contention. I think its the whole point of the debate. It is good tactics, a tad too good. Remember, exploiting the manashield bug in d1 is also a good tactic when your goal is "I win."

IMO when you have the balanced group (not a bunch of rogues, but a tank, healer, ect) this is what you should be doing. The sneak attack isn't something I would want obliterated from the game, but limitations on its viability I think is a good idea lest that become the way.
Special forces don't haul in a full med and heavy armor support unit do they? ;)
I don't think we disagree so much on the points as the points of view. :) I see this is a cheesy exploit of Blizzard's lack of foresight, but again- NOT CHEATING. To use your Sirian analagy, I think this way is like whacking at the Piñata without the blindfold, or being spun around a few times, or whatever. Just a cheesy "I win" scenario. B)
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1. Special forces bring their medics with them, and everyone on the team is medically competent to some extent. Probably don't bring a surgeon very often though, on an assassination mission. :) As to firepower, they bring a radio. That makes all kinds of heavy hitting available, just like casting a spell. *Flash to the Afghanistan instance . . . summon B-1 full of 2,000 lb bombs* Talk about an AoE spell . . . well aimed AoE. :lol:

2. While I understand your position, "How much cheese on the WoW burger, Sir?" I am also frequently found in the company of Variant Scum™. Dithering about in loopholes is part of the fun. Or can be. Is an All Rogue Team or an All Druid Team were a valid approach? All Rogue May be possible, though hard, others may wish to comment on that. "The Thieves Guild leads the way!!!"

I imagine a five Druid party, if build emphasis varied, would be able to handle a lot of instances due to their flexibility. Does everything HAVE to be Min Max? Does your "balanced team" model have to be the only model? I confess that I do like the designed theme requiring teamwork, rather than five players playing alone together . . . :)

Maybe what I am asking is: Does the archetype from old school D & D have to sustain? Ya know, the old "Fighters up front, Clerics in the Middle, Mages in the REar, and oh yeah, first off, Send In The Thief/Rogue! He'll find and disarm the traps . . . all while hiding in shadows without having to cast an invisibility spell."

"Hey Thiefy, what's with the rosary beads? Sorry, those are your percentile dice, the prayer on your lips confused me . . . what, you say you might MISS the traps roll? Sucks to be you." :rolleyes:

Occhi