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+--- Thread: Is using stealth an exploit? (/thread-6621.html)
Is using stealth an exploit? - DarkCrown - 04-08-2005
Lately I've been running into LBRS with a group made solely of druids and rogues. We stealth past most of the mobs, using distract for the tricky bits, and position ourselves near a boss. We then take down the mobs around the boss so we have room to fight, kill the boss and then move on to the next loot-filled target.
When this is done right you can finish a run in 30 to 45 minutes. It's also great fun.
Recently several people in my guild have said they believe that this is an exploit, and against the TOS. I don't think so. I think we're using the skills the game designers gave us to run an instance. We certainly aren't making use of bugs to gain advantage over other players.
What do you all think? Is this cheating?
-DC
Is using stealth an exploit? - Gregorius - 04-08-2005
I've never heard of anyone being banned for this. Non-rogues will resent you for it, as many feel that it's cheesy. I wouldn't do it but that's just me. For me instances are all about fun, and not just killing the bosses (which is fun, but I've not been in an instance where the "trash mobs" weren't enjoyable on some level or another).
Is using stealth an exploit? - vor_lord - 04-09-2005
DarkCrown,Apr 8 2005, 03:21 PM Wrote:Lately I've been running into LBRS with a group made solely of druids and rogues. We stealth past most of the mobs, using distract for the tricky bits, and position ourselves near a boss. We then take down the mobs around the boss so we have room to fight, kill the boss and then move on to the next loot-filled target.
When this is done right you can finish a run in 30 to 45 minutes. It's also great fun.
Recently several people in my guild have said they believe that this is an exploit, and against the TOS. I don't think so. I think we're using the skills the game designers gave us to run an instance. We certainly aren't making use of bugs to gain advantage over other players.
What do you all think? Is this cheating?
-DC
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Well, I don't think it is cheating, but Blizzard might.
Can't find the threads there now (too long ago) but the basic policy is this: If you aren't using a bug, it isn't an exploit until there is a specific warning about it. That said, they considered several content bypassing techniques exploits and warned about them. If you're only having to fight the bosses, they will not be pleased with that.
Is using stealth an exploit? - Artega - 04-09-2005
DarkCrown,Apr 8 2005, 06:21 PM Wrote:Is this cheating?
-DC
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No.
Until Blizzard says something about it, it's perfectly fine. Some may call it cheesing, but you're using your class' abilties.
A GM will likely warn you if you're doing something wrong, so go nuts.
Is using stealth an exploit? - Sir_Die_alot - 04-09-2005
It isn't cheating but it's certainly exploiting an ability oversight by Blizzard. It rubs me the wrong way because (IMO) you shouldn't be able to skip such a large amount of content, hopefully Blizzard will add some stealth detecting patrol mobs to make this a little harder.
Of course this wouldn't be a problem if Blizzard hadn't added a cat form in the first place and only let druids of the claw be BEAR druids of the claw. :)
Is using stealth an exploit? - Brista - 04-09-2005
It's backwards logic
It starts from the idea that everyone is entitled to everything equally
But this of course is false
At the top end the Warriors will get the chance to main tank which other classes won't, Priests will be welcome in every raid which other classes won't, stealth classes can use stealth which other classes can't
So your druid/rogue group may be able to farm some bosses more efficiently but so too the Area Effect specialists can farm cloth more efficiently and the raid-friendly classes get more opportunities to roll on the very top items simply by being more welcome on raids
Game is pretty fair to all classes and were it not, then the class getting an advantage would get nerfed
That people in your guild are accusing you of exploiting has a social aspect of course quite irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the case. I suggest you complain to your guild leader in strong terms. If your guild leader thinks you're exploiting then either stop, keep it very quiet from now on (although guildies will be able to see whereabouts you are in the guild tab) or find another guild. Or just start a flaming row every time it happens and pull up all sorts of red herring "exploits" to accuse your accusers of. People essentially calling me a cheat in guild chat isn't something I'd put up with myself
Hope it sorts itself out, WoW is unfortunately plagued with unreasonable idiots
Is using stealth an exploit? - Swiss Mercenary - 04-09-2005
Sir_Die_alot,Apr 9 2005, 01:12 AM Wrote:It isn't cheating but it's certainly exploiting an ability oversight by Blizzard. It rubs me the wrong way because (IMO) you shouldn't be able to skip such a large amount of content, hopefully Blizzard will add some stealth detecting patrol mobs to make this a little harder.
Making rogues even less wanted in parties. :rolleyes:
Is using stealth an exploit? - kandrathe - 04-09-2005
Well, you know that you are circumventing the spirit of the instance. But, I don't think what you are doing is "wrong" to the extent that Blizzard will do anything about it. You need to deal with your guild, and if they are convinced it is not in the spirit of their sense of fair play, then you might be in the wrong guild.
I wouldn't do it, because it trivializes the game into endless "Foothills", or "Mephisto" runs to get phat lewt. Why would I pay for monotony?
Is using stealth an exploit? - DarkCrown - 04-09-2005
kandrathe,Apr 9 2005, 08:27 AM Wrote:I wouldn't do it, because it trivializes the game into endless "Foothills", or "Mephisto" runs to get phat lewt. Why would I pay for monotony?
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You really should try this first before you call it trivial. It takes skill to get past all the mobs. The rogues and the druids have to work together to get the druids past some of the sections. The boss fights are not always easy, and like any other instance run there are deaths and sometimes wipes. I can see where someone who has not done it might think it was trivial, but these runs are much much harder than the endless killing of Mephisto we saw in D2.
-DC
Is using stealth an exploit? - Alram - 04-09-2005
I think it is fine.
I have predominately soloed with my rogue. Many quests can be completed in the way you describe--sneaking past minions; it is not bypassing content. it is an alternative way of dealing with content. There is always risk and adventure attached.
Is using stealth an exploit? - Sir_Die_alot - 04-09-2005
Swiss Mercenary,Apr 9 2005, 07:05 AM Wrote:Making rogues even less wanted in parties. :rolleyes:I'm not saying make stealth unuseable in an instance because every 3rd mob is a detector, I'm saying make it impossible to walk from one end to the other stealthed. Heck, if they gave stealth a 10 minute timer that might work too (though I would be less fond of that because it makes going AFK dangerous). Making a few stealth detecting mobs seems to me like something Blizzard would do to fix this. Stealthing to the end of the instance is a cheese pure and simple, and one IMO that goes against the spirit of the game. Would I call someone who did it a cheater? No. I might even try it myself a couple times (I certainly have steathed in a few pre-instance areas to gather some quest items from select creatures), but that doesn't mean I expect it to stay a part of the game.
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Is using stealth an exploit? - Savingsupertokyo - 04-09-2005
A lot of this game content is based straight off of DND rules. Rogues have always been meant to sneak around without being seen. I don't see a problem with this, especially if the group is all rogues and druids. There really isnt any other way to go about that instance in a safer manner than stealthing around.
Is using stealth an exploit? - Brista - 04-09-2005
kandrathe,Apr 9 2005, 04:27 PM Wrote:Well, you know that you are circumventing the spirit of the instance. [right][snapback]73464[/snapback][/right]
What absolute rubbish!
It circumvents the spirit of the instance in the same way that outflanking the French Maginot Line circumvented the spirit of war
There is nothing wrong with using obvious class features. It's like calling healing an exploit because really people can't recover from injuries easily so healing circumvents the spirit of armed conflict
To me the spirit of the instance is what the OP mentioned: to have fun. That they are having fun and walking off with phat lewt is gravy
Is using stealth an exploit? - ima_nerd - 04-09-2005
Brista,Apr 9 2005, 06:35 PM Wrote:It circumvents the spirit of the instance in the same way that outflanking the French Maginot Line circumvented the spirit of war
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Haha. Had to laugh at that.
Is using stealth an exploit? - kandrathe - 04-10-2005
Brista,Apr 9 2005, 01:35 PM Wrote:What absolute rubbish!
It circumvents the spirit of the instance in the same way that outflanking the French Maginot Line circumvented the spirit of war
There is nothing wrong with using obvious class features. It's like calling healing an exploit because really people can't recover from injuries easily so healing circumvents the spirit of armed conflict
To me the spirit of the instance is what the OP mentioned: to have fun. That they are having fun and walking off with phat lewt is gravy
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I hope you know I was implying "to each their own". The instance is designed to present challenges for a team, and if this team feels that sneaking past the mobs is a challenge then "to each their own". But, I doubt that the designers intended sections of high level instances to be circumvented in that manner. Sure, there are places to jump down and skip sections, and I think that non-linearity was designed in to allow a redo of a portion that maybe someone missed. He is posting here because he senses the ambiguity, and as he states, so does his guild.
I'm just pointing out the danger of trivializing an instance run to what he had claimed was 30 minutes. If it is as challenging, then why the focus on speed? This would then lead to my next logical conclusion that someone, maybe not them, would then consider grinding the bosses only, just as some other games we know have been.
Is using stealth an exploit? - Brista - 04-10-2005
kandrathe,Apr 10 2005, 08:14 AM Wrote:I hope you know I was implying "to each their own".  The instance is designed to present challenges for a team, and if this team feels that sneaking past the mobs is a challenge then "to each their own". But, I doubt that the designers intended sections of high level instances to be circumvented in that manner. Sure, there are places to jump down and skip sections, and I think that non-linearity was designed in to allow a redo of a portion that maybe someone missed.  He is posting here because he senses the ambiguity, and as he states, so does his guild.
I'm just pointing out the danger of trivializing an instance run to what he had claimed was 30 minutes.  If it is as challenging, then why the focus on speed? This would then lead to my next logical conclusion that someone, maybe not them, would then consider grinding the bosses only, just as some other games we know have been.
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I didn't see the implication and I don't think that what you wrote quite matches what you intended to say, perhaps. If you say something like "this circumvents the spirit of the game" then to me at least it implies something underhand if not outright cheating. Moving your opponent's chess pieces while they go to the toilet, stealing from the bank when no one's looking in Monopoly, those are things that circumvent the spirit of those games. It's a limitation of this form of communication that you can't shade your statements with tone so they are open to a wide range of interpretation by the reader.
I disagree with this notion that the play is unintentional. The designers would have to be really really stupid to not anticipate people would stealth if they put stealth classes in the game. I don't think you can expect that they design content in isolation from an overall game perspective. The designers know that characters can sneak past normal mobs, just as they know that tank + healer is strong, that area effect spam can be over-powered and many other imbalances. Surely it's reasonable to expect them to have considered that players might do this - it's a basic class-defining feature, they know it's available to players
What's more I don't think they "intend" dungeons to be done in a specific way. D2 entertained both the ubers with their Windforces and the underpowered variants creeping around act 1 killing things with 30 point Firestorm. The product works better if it appeals on many levels which is why there are more viable successful approaches in WoW than there are in competing games. In EQ2 for instance you pretty much need the cookie cutter party for a lot of the content: tank healer + crowd control or damage. In WoW you can overcome challenges by cheesing it with high level help or huge raids, you can dissect it with your tactical genius with a group of like minded friends or you can just keep plugging away until you win by sheer persistence. The idea that dungeons are supposed to be done by Warrior + 2 Mages + 2 Priests or whatever is just too simplistic and boring for what is a very cutting edge group of game designers.
Another part of the reason that I object to this "not playing the game as intended" line is, in addition to the fact that I think it's false, is that there is an emotional and perjorative implication. The original poster asked "Am I cheating?" and you're saying "No, but..."
This isn't a grey area.
Warriors hit things, Healers heal and Rogues sneak around. These are class-defining features, none of which are cheating. The Rogue class is designed to bypass content. The Rogue/Thief concept in fantasy bypasses content
To imply that doing this is unethical play is offensive
I'm sorry not to take a more balanced viewpoint, I usually like to be open to both sides. But in this case I can't see any validity in any argument that stealth is unintended or exploiting. It's absolutely clear that it's deliberately built into the game at the character class level
Now there may be game design issues about the availability of drops. I'm not convinced either way. But to say X party set-up is too strong at farming Y drops is very different from saying people who use X party set-up are exploiting or taking advantage of a developer oversight. There are many mage priest teams who farm with area effect spells without being called exploiters
So I would ask posters to please bear in mind the distinction between power-gaming and exploiting. Power-gaming is legitimate and is many people's preference and is certainly an intentionally available playstyle in WoW
Is using stealth an exploit? - Guest - 04-10-2005
Its not an exploit. You are using class abilities exactly as intended according to the skill desciptions.
You are just dealing with jealous whiners.
Is using stealth an exploit? - Raven Vale - 04-10-2005
Was'nt there a big thing about this not too long ago which got some people suspended and the reason was they were skipping too much content by farming the bosses without touching anything inbetween , those instances were sorted , but I bet there will be more stealth detection added and this will cause uproar , effectively bringing yet another "nerf" into the game .
Is using stealth an exploit? - Quark - 04-10-2005
Raven Vale,Apr 10 2005, 09:04 AM Wrote:Was'nt there a big thing about this not too long ago which got some people suspended and the reason was they were skipping too much content by farming the bosses without touching anything inbetween , those instances were sorted , but I bet there will be more stealth detection added and this will cause uproar , effectively bringing yet another "nerf" into the game .
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Scarlet Monastery was the problem before (and still is if you know the other boss to hit). However, there were a few important differences. First, you only needed one rogue alone to do it. High enough level rogues could easily sneak through without even a healer. Second, there's absolutely no mob you needed to fight. The changes make it so you need to fight a few to get to the old boss. Third, I did the run once (after the items were made worthless, I spent alot of time skilling up Lockpicking in SM) and it took me like 5 minutes. Fourth, and most importantly, people talked about how easy it was. Someone even made a video showing how easy it was. So you had copycats, tons of them, running the same thing over and over. At the point where people constantly do the same thing for money, it starts to skew the economy and Blizzard has to do something about it.
Is using stealth an exploit? - BoddoZerg - 04-10-2005
DarkCrown,Apr 8 2005, 05:21 PM Wrote:Lately I've been running into LBRS with a group made solely of druids and rogues. We stealth past most of the mobs, using distract for the tricky bits, and position ourselves near a boss. We then take down the mobs around the boss so we have room to fight, kill the boss and then move on to the next loot-filled target.
When this is done right you can finish a run in 30 to 45 minutes. It's also great fun.
Recently several people in my guild have said they believe that this is an exploit, and against the TOS. I don't think so. I think we're using the skills the game designers gave us to run an instance. We certainly aren't making use of bugs to gain advantage over other players.
What do you all think? Is this cheating?
-DC
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It's not an exploit. People are jealous bitches. Blizzard made a healer that could stealth, certainly they could have anticipated all-stealth parties sneaking around to kill bosses.
Not to mention that many of the trash mobs have a % chance to drop set pieces... so it's not like you're skipping content without skipping out on any loot.
And having 4 rogues and 1 druid does not exactly make boss fights easy. I'm neither Rogue nor Druid, but I can imagine certain bosses (like Vosh, I dont think druids can dispel Frog) would be pretty challenging.