Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW?

[Treesh]

If I can poly it, chances are it can be sapped and MCed, too.  The only difference between poly, sap and MC is that poly hits beasts as well as humanoids.  You know how many elite beasts there are in the four endgame instances and Dire Maul?

One.

The spiders in LBRS are it.  That's "so many targets" compared to sap and MC? 
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And there is much more to the game than just the endgame instances and Dire Maul. Since sometime after Gnomeregan, Aleri has had two mages with her group for most instances. Having two sheepers who know how to work together has made many instances run so much easier. We almost never wipe and only on rare occasions do I have to completely hunker down and go into absolute heal bot mode. Having run Razorfen Downs and not being able to have more than one sheep or sap was much trickier and riskier. We also didn't have a priest with us to shackle (I was playing my rogue, not my priest). We only really managed to do it well because we had an overlevelled mage and warlock with us simply because of their AoEs. My rogue shut down the casters (Cheap shot, kidney shot, and improved kick) while they AoEd everything beating the crap out of the tank.

Anyway, after all that rambling, my main point is that there is so much more to the game than level 57-60. You cannot discount the usefulness of classes for the rest of the game simply because of how things work at the end game stuff.

[Drasca]

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Not true. Firstly minor speed increase to boots enchant (increased run speed) is a godsend, secondly your party has many snare abilities. Earthbind, crippling poison, curse of exhaustion, ice/freeze traps, etc. Frost nova is to put range between you while your party focuses on one, not anything else. It buys time. That's important. With the various snares, aoe and otherwise, its very useful to kite.

The 'bring enemy to tank' cannot always apply. That depends specifically on number of enemies and if an AoE taunt is viable. If they're too far spread out and distant, it is advisable to kite overrun past your tank, but you may still run. Simply standing still = death, or at very least does not take advantage of snares, immobilizers, and range.

Tanks cannot hold aggro on every target at all times. There will be run aways, ones out of range, ones not tab-targetabble, mobs too numerous and too spread out. In those cases, harassing the enemy through kiting is extremely important--and those cases do show up. Run in one direction? No. Circle around the party, and pass the tank every so often, yes.

As for your second point about burst damage - yes, it's perfectly useful when the enemy's already been worn down to 5% health and

Not 5%. Seeing that the rate of health going down will result in 5-10 seconds signals everyone to go all out, thus bringing the mob down whether its at 50% health or 5%. Just getting to the 'last lap' psychological point is extremely important.

There's a spot...

Yes and it takes time to setup the spot. Time is the most precious resource of all, and I don't like having to waste it. Mages are a lot more flexible in this regard. It matters more in PvP, that'd be digressing.

Are you still talking about the Rivendare encounter?  After four shots of IAE (that's three seconds of Hellfire) all the skeletons are dead. 

No, not for warlocks. They're too spread out with the aggro going nuts everywhere. 4 seconds of hellfire = 2000 mana cost mininum. 1300 for the spell itself, 4 * 212 health costs.

You don't need to frost nova, blink, run in circles.

That's for saving healers and other encounters.

The comparison, by the way isn't poly vs. fear, but poly vs. fear/seduce/banish/enslave.  You can't use them all the time, but mages have literally nothing else.

Almost all instances have sheepable targets. Do you see banish/enslave being any use in Strat? UBRS?

The only difference between poly, sap and MC is that poly hits beasts as well as humanoids. 

Hardly. Poly is far more reliable, with its longer duration, less chance to resist, and ability to pre-buff poly. I cannot pre-buff fear (new nerf), charm cannot be prebuffed, sap cannot be re-buffed, and MC? Ha! Do you want a dead primary healer? Sure its great when it works, but its too darn risky sometimes. Freeze trap? Um. Cannot directly choose target with that. Ranged CC that can keep the enemy out of the entire battle? Only the mage can do that. Saps break and cannot be refreshed. Succubus charm breaks intermittently, and succubus may die if not careful.

Poly is the only fire and (mostly) forget CC. All other forms split the attention of the caster. You only need to remember refreshing after every kill or two.

Drasca, because you play the single most powerful PvE class in the game.

I concede this. Warlocks can work wonders PvE no other class can match... just that the game isn't all PvE. Blizzard's end-game perpetual time suck depends on PvP, and given that model, its unavoidable.

Even your suggested Poly/doom combo is only interesting because of CoD: sap and freeze trap work just as well.

I've done it with sap before. Doesn't work quite as well. Takes more attention, and I need to charm the target when it becomes unsapped. I don't think it works with freeze traps, as I couldn't curse enemies frozen by a hunter's trap last time.

Sap + CoDoom works well enough, but works better with poly'ed targets. It is also a matter of which targets get sapped. I prefer melee targets sapped so we may kill casters first, while I generally like the most dangerous casters poly'ed until the end of battle.

Additonally, Parties tend to kill the sapped/unsapped targets while ignoring the CoD. They don't pop sheeps so readily.

Sidenote:
I can only be effective if my debuffs aren't pushed off, or if the mobs aren't killed too fast. The rest? Just goes to waste. Direct damage is king in raids.

I have seen firsthand how *not* having a mage makes very little difference.  It boiled down to one less humanoid CCed.

I've played in 5-man non-standard parties too, and in high level instances. In DM, every bit of AoE, and ranged control mattered--excluding DM east, which is an introductory instance.

I wish more mages used their detect magic ability. It was extremely useful against rattlegore to know when to dispel/purge/devour magic. I'd imagine against other bosses and casters as well. I have to guesstimate when to devour magic on other mobs otherwise.

Oh btw: Hunters minimum range makes them innately less useful for consistent damage. Can't shoot on the run? Must run off just to shoot? Ugh! Frustrating.

IIRC, Druids and Mages are the only ones able to remove curses. Detect magic, and Curse removal do add to unique utility of mages.

As for counterspell... so much more useful to safely pull casters with counterspell. A few items can silence, but not many. Equipment can't be relied on. I like my felhunter's spell lock, which shuts down a school of magic from range for 8 seconds if they're casting, but that's no counterspell. If our priset has points into shadow for silence that's fantastic, but most high end instance priests are holy specced. Again, not reliable.

The traits important to me are reliability, mobility, time and attention effiency. Mages have all of that.

Maybe you're used to playing tanks, or alongside tanks a lot. Sure they're nice, but I've played 5 man instances without warriors or obvious tanks too. Mobility matters. Moreso in PvP, but here too. I have to stand around being interrupted by attacks directed toward my direction. Mages have no such limitation. They can consistently burst on the run, or fight without being interrupted. I have to wait for a 10 minute cooldown, nightfall proc, or spend a soul shard that takes minutes to farm. Ugh ugh ugh. Instants are an absolute must for mobiilty. Mages have got them. Ignore your mobility strengths and you're ignoring the value of magi.

The level of anxiety changes greatly without a good mage around. Are warlocks replaceable too? Can their abilities by outstripped by other classes individually? Let's see... Uh. YEAH. Rogues get frontloaded damage, Hunters/Mages ranged damage, Priests get a better dps DoT, Warriors tank better than voidwalkers, Mages better ranged CC than Charm. What's unique to warlocks? Chain fear, Soulstones? (applies to alliance only, shamans an reincarnate and rez all, druids can combat rez priest before they die, waits for party to wipe and priest combat rezzes after aggro is lost), Banish! . . but where are the elementals. BRD? DM. Yay... right? Many 'elementals' are immune to banish.

Enslave? Oh boy. So easy for it to turn on you at the worst possible moment. Takes a minimum of 7 seconds to enslave. One second to cast curse of shadows, another lag time and to be sure curse of shadows stuck, 4 more seconds plus a minimum of one second's worth of interrupts while enslaving. . . all the while taking damage and aggro.

[Drasca]

I party regularly with a fire/arcane mage, and his combination of quick-cast snares, immobilizers, and burst damage is incredible. A quick chain of flamestrike, IAE spam, blast wave, frost nova, blink, and blizzard leaves a whole lot of mobs standing there ready to be knocked over with a feather. Which he does with cone of cold, if need be.
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Ha! That's exactly the kind of mobility I think of. Thanks KV! I've seen good.... nay, great and godly mages duel. My favorite mage is 3rd in standing in PvP contribution. He has both time and skill to do it. The top two are rogue and shaman, and they party together... but Veet... he dances better than almost everyone. Oh and guys, when I was talking about men who had thousands of kills and tens of thousands (quickly approaching hundreds of thousands) of contribution points, this is the guy. He dances, he keeps mobs mesmerized with his quick and practiced steps.

As an aside: I've only pvp'ed moderately while questing, and spent only one day actually pvp'ing. Still much more than what I saw in stormrage. My contribution is around 8-9k with a 300 odd kills, and a 356 standing. Some of those alliance in Stormrage have barely 2-3k contrib and much higher standing... eww. They wouldn't make past scout, maybe grunt on my server.

The mages dance of death is what makes a mage great. Thinking he must stand around stiff... just kills the mage potential. Mages aren't warriors. They aren't pawns. They're knights and bishops that swoop in fast at range and swoop out. They play with instants, range, momentum and enemy speed.

Skan, if you don't wish to dance, don't come to the party, but don't deny others can dance and spectacularly.

I should've caught this earlier:

Teleports for convenience, but that doesn't really apply in combat.

I assume here you mean Blink.

Here's where you're missing out. PvP and Duels particularly hone your mobility skills, and sadly on a PvE server you seem to have been able to completely ignore them. Without said dance of death, mages would seem utterly bland in comparison.

[Skandranon]

That said, I'd have to say that nothing does mass damage like a mage -- they're pure AoE kings. Mage DPS is only marginal when it's single-target DPS; stacked against multiple targets it becomes incredible.

We've heard it directly from the Blizzard CMs. Mages are supposed to specialize in AoE damage. And yet, strangely, they don't have the highest DPS AoE.

Simply changing IAE to inflict 300-330 damage per cast would do a lot to make mages at least slightly closer on the usefulness scale to the warlock.

Um, respectfully disagree on that one. Blastwave, anyone?

Blast wave doesn't count. You can't select what you want to snare with it, the snare is 5 seconds against a 45 second cooldown, and the fact that it's AoE and does serious damage means that it's going to cause aggro problems left and right. Technically, I was wrong, but not practically.

I party regularly with a fire/arcane mage, and his combination of quick-cast snares, immobilizers, and burst damage is incredible. A quick chain of flamestrike, IAE spam, blast wave, frost nova, blink, and blizzard leaves a whole lot of mobs standing there ready to be knocked over with a feather. Which he does with cone of cold, if need be.

Against masses of non-elites...yes, except that the Blizzard at the end doesn't do a whole lot. You can chew up hordes of non-elites with that, except that Warlocks can do it with more damage and higher efficiency.

It's like marvelling at warrior damage with MS + Arcanite Reaper. Is it good? Certainly. Is the damage output the best? Not in any way. I'm not denying that second place can look good and be good, but first place is still better.

That kind of mobility and instant-cast ability makes him *way* more powerful when it comes to AoE attacks than any warlock could ever dream of being. The warlock just doesn't have those tools, it's a key in the class design. The mage is all about low HP and big damage, moving and staying out of reach is the key tactic, and so the class gets a ton of instant-cast abilities.

Except that having low HP gets you chewed up no matter how much you move. Mobility, by itself, isn't an attribute unless it has concrete effects. Your implication here is that the mobility and instant casts result in the mage getting hit less, which is simply not the case.

What better way to bring things back to the tank than by snaring and kiting them back? No better class for that than the mage, with the ability to grab aggro using moving AoE, combined with the snare/root effects of frost spells and/or blastwave.

AoEing in any situation which isn't an AoE situation is begging for massive aggro issues as every mob but one suddenly comes loose from the tank and goes after you. Yes, you can grab aggro from the tank that way, kite them around a bit and bring them back to the tank. But there's no virtue to doing that; why not leave the mobs on the tank and bring back the breakout? Your solution works, but it's for a problem you create. If you don't AoE inappropriately in the first place, it turns out that you don't need to kite.

Again, I have to disagree. The ability to keep doing magework while moving is what makes mages unique. It's late, and my thinking abilities are impaired, but other than shammy totems, I can't think of a class that has the ability to run and gun anywhere close to a mage. It's a fundamental feature of the class.

That's both true and irrelevant. Being able to run and gun is a PvP advantage - not a PvE advantage. Run and gun in Molten Core and see how far that gets you.

Even a two-mage party in a regular instance is pretty crazy when the mages work well together -- stacked IAE and blizzard is just fearsome.

Fearsome? If you say so. But fearsome or not, two mages stacking IAE and blizzard are doing 25% less damage than two warlocks stacking Hellfires. I'm not saying mage AoE isn't good. But how about, say, having the class that's supposed to be best at AoE actually, you know, be best at AoE? Is this such a novel concept?

On top of that, polymorph is the gold standard in CC. For some reason, my warlock's mez will break two or three times before the average sheep pops up. Dunno if that's a bug or by design, but it's annoying.

No disagreement, but why is it that everyone must bring this up? It's like the free mount argument for Paladins. "It's okay that everything else you have is second rate, because you have one thing you can do well."? Never mind that every other class has at least four things that they're the best at.

All things considred, I'd say that mages have it better than warlocks on most things. They're certainly less bugged and more complete as a class, which eliminates a bunch of frustration in playing them.
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The frustration only comes after months at level 60. It's not something that's apparent immediately.

[Skandranon]

Anyway, after all that rambling, my main point is that there is so much more to the game than level 57-60.  You cannot discount the usefulness of classes for the rest of the game simply because of how things work at the end game stuff.
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Agreed. All my previous and future comments in this thread should be amended to note that I am addressing only the rapid tail-off of mage usefulness at levels past 56. It is an issue, and 57+ is more than 5% of the game, but it is not, and I shouldn't have implied that it is, the case for all levels and all places.

[Skandranon]

Not true. Firstly minor speed increase to boots enchant (increased run speed) is a godsend, secondly your party has many snare abilities. Earthbind, crippling poison, curse of exhaustion, ice/freeze traps, etc. Frost nova is to put range between you while your party focuses on one, not anything else. It buys time. That's important. With the various snares, aoe and otherwise, its very useful to kite.

I strongly disagree that kiting is a strategy with more than marginal application. You can't seriously say that you see mages kiting every battle.

Simply standing still = death, or at very least does not take advantage of snares, immobilizers, and range.

Consider the implications of this. In other words, upon getting a breakout, I should FN/CoC, and start running in circles while pitching Frostbolts. Let's look at the implications of such a tactic.

Employing this basically gives up any chance of the tank retaking aggro. After all, if I've got aggro, I've clearly dealt more damage than I should. This prescription involves dealing even more damage, compounding the problem, and dealing more and more damage just to keep it snared while I run. Meanwhile, the tank, especially if it's a paladin, is having more and more difficulty getting aggro back, because I keep building it. He also has to chase the mob which is chasing me, which means that the other mobs are chasing him and he's likely getting chain-dazed. The priest has to keep track of a moving target, we're going round and round and could easily pick up patrols or another group as adds. I start moving, now everyone has to start moving and the opportunities for things to go wrong increase exponentially.

Of course, I could always pick a mob out and go kite it on my own while the rest of the party handles the rest of the mobs. Of course, now I'm out of mutual support range and one of the DPS roles is off doing their own thing and not concentrating on the primary target.

The alternative? I stand still, put up mana shield and wait for the tank to grab aggro back. After a suitable pause, I go back to attacking the main target. Every mob continues to attack the tank, who has the best armour and defence. We dispatch the enemies one at a time in a measured fashion.

Tanks cannot hold aggro on every target at all times.

This is true. However, they can hold aggro on every target most of the time, and much of the remainder of the time breakouts will be singles. Talk to any tank player - one of the hardest times for them to do their job is when the player starts running, which starts the mob running. It's hard enough for tanks to target and take aggro from every creature. Fleeing and running in circles just makes it that much harder.

Not 5%. Seeing that the rate of health going down will result in 5-10 seconds signals everyone to go all out, thus bringing the mob down whether its at 50% health or 5%. Just getting to the 'last lap' psychological point is extremely important.

I'm not quite up to including "warm glowy feeling" in the list of mage advantages. That said, it's not as simple as you say. No class, including mages, can put out enough burst damage to take down a 61 elite from 50% health. Mages can try, but they'll take aggro almost immediately, and if they continue to pour on the damage they'll just be sealing the mob to them. Death in ten seconds.

No, not for warlocks. They're too spread out with the aggro going nuts everywhere. 4 seconds of hellfire = 2000 mana cost mininum. 1300 for the spell itself, 4 * 212 health costs.

It takes a fraction of a second to locate the correct spot to stand and to get there. I do move during the Rivendare encounter, but only to back out of the aura when he's not summoning skeletons. Warlocks can feel free to stop channelling Hellfire and do the same thing when all the skellies are dead.

I've spent a lot of time learning the art of applying AoE, and can usually identify the right spot to go to in every encounter that requires it. However, I do realize this is a function of experience. Once it's learned, however, it takes a great deal less time than you realize. Much of the advantages of moving, such as being able to rein in additional targets that you didn't get initially due to poor positioning, disappear.

Almost all instances have sheepable targets. Do you see banish/enslave being any use in Strat? UBRS?

Not much use there, true. Of course, you can't forget Dire Maul. And this little place called Molten Core.

See my response to KV's thoughts on the subject. I don't deny that Poly is the best CC out there. I deny that it's so good that every other part of the mage can be second-rate. And if it is, then I support the removal of Polymorph as a skill to enhance mages' capabilities overall.

Detect magic, and Curse removal do add to unique utility of mages.

In the same sense that Water Breathing and Beast Lore are unique warlock and hunter abilities, I suppose. Curse removal is important, but non-critical and certainly not something that helps mages execute what's supposed to be their primary role.

Maybe you're used to playing tanks, or alongside tanks a lot.

Neither of these statements is true. I have a 60 paladin, but I've spent far more time on my mage. I've played her since the very day of release. As for alongside: I've run instances all the way up to ST with a party that was hunter, warlock, mage, mage, priest. I did the Sharpbeak quest with a 3-man party of mage, mage, priest, and recently went to see Haleh in Mazthoril with the same party. I have extensive experience in all things, and one of those things is non-standard situations and I still don't see advantages to moving around that aren't outweighed by its disadvantages.

Furthermore, just what kind of endgame instance run is done with mages and no form of tank at all? By the endgame, you basically have one or you're toast. I tried rogue, mage, warlock, priest, hunter in Stratholme and it was very difficult indeed. Not to say I couldn't have done it, but these situations are in no way common enough to declare the potential usefulness of mages in them a significant positive.

Mages have got them. Ignore your mobility strengths and you're ignoring the value of magi.

You keep saying this, but mobility doesn't have inherent value. What does mobility do for me? You can claim that it lets the mage get hit less, but this is categorically untrue. Take a character - any character, they all run the same speed - and plunk yourself down next to a mob that aggros you. Then turn and start running. In the next ten to fifteen seconds, you will get hit the same number of times as if you'd just stood there, even if you don't get dazed. You can blink to move out ahead, but then you're out of IAE range, and if this isn't an AoE situation, see previous thoughts on why kiting is overly complicated.

Are warlocks replaceable too? Can their abilities by outstripped by other classes individually? Let's see... Uh. YEAH.

Sure, but that's a matter of replacing a warlock with four other players to cover all the capabilities. The mage problem isn't so much with power level of abilities (though it is that, too) but with scope. There simply isn't a large variety of things for mages to do that are effective.

Seduce isn't as good as poly. But you can pull it out when you see a humanoid. When you see an elemental, you can reach for banish, when you see anything in a room without other mobs in it you can hit fear. On any enemy you can stop its spells, dispel its magic effects, keep it distracted with an off-tank, keep it from running or reduce its resistances. You can give your party lots of stamina and soulstone or summon them for ultimate wipe recovery. And of course, you dish out the best AoE damage in the game and respectable single-target damage, third behind rogues and hunters, and easily sustainable by way of HRB + Life Tap. That's not even getting close to everything.

In comparison. Mages can stop spellcasters. They can buff intellect. They have the best humanoid CC. They can do second-rate AoE damage and fifth-rate single-target damage, with the least sustainable damage of any class (including paladins if you designate battles of 20 min or over). They can remove curses.

I can make up a list like this for every class. Even leaving aside the power issues, mages have a short list indeed. When, as a party leader, I wonder what I'm getting in exchange for using up one of my party slots, I find mages don't offer a lot. Rogues have a similarly short list, which leads to their oft-discussed problems with usefulness in the endgame. The rogues' case is widely accepted: I'm not sure why the mages aren't heard, too.

You have options where mages don't; something is better than nothing. And as a party leader, options are the most valuable thing you can have. It's part of what makes the warlock so good. I'm not asking for the warlock's capabilities to be curtailed, but especially when your arguments all come down to polymorph and mobility, it's hard not to see that mages have very little relative variety. I obviously don't ask for the warlocks' range of capabilities, but the mage's is very small right now.

[Tal]

This is true.  However, they can hold aggro on every target most of the time, and much of the remainder of the time breakouts will be singles.  Talk to any tank player - one of the hardest times for them to do their job is when the player starts running, which starts the mob running.  It's hard enough for tanks to target and take aggro from every creature.  Fleeing and running in circles just makes it that much harder.
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I'm a very bad tank. If someone pulls aggro and then proceeds to run away from me while adding threat tends to die under my care. I simply cannot risk losing all aggro by trying to top the threat a kiter makes. It is much better, if you get aggro, to follow Skan's strategy of popping mana shield and coming nearer the tank for me to resteal aggro. I played with a mage the other night on Shalandrax. I ended up using taunt the most against a single non-boss mob than I ever had before. She opened up with Pyroblast and I taunted it back to me. Before I got the rage for a shield block, demo shout or sunder she hit it with a fireball, when the timer was up I taunted again and used my other threat generating skills to no avail. She alternated between fireball pyroblast and arcane missiles. She got an add and began running in circles trying to AoE to kill both. She died quickly and I finished off the two mobs. She then proceeded to berate me for not keeping her safe. :rolleyes:

[Skandranon]

Skan, if you don't wish to dance, don't come to the party, but don't deny others can dance and spectacularly.

I don't deny that they can dance and that it might be spectacular. I deny that they can dance and that it will be effective. Spectacular doesn't equal effective. Spectacular makes its greatest impact on people who don't play mages, and is least interesting to people who do. Spectacular but not effective is your complaint about the Infernal, so I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Mobs have a number of safeguards built into them to ensure that clever players can't befuzzle them. One of them is that you can't really run away from them; they'll keep scoring hits from some distance away. You can't keep mobs mesmerized by dancing: they can and will turn instantaneously and without breaking stride to follow you, blink or not. Without blink you can't really run from a mob. You can run in the sense that you can easily reach the edge of their chase radius and send them back to their spawn point in evade mode, but you can't run in the sense that you can buy space to cast or avoid a single hit. I can move around and blink and toss instants and whatnot, and I'm sure it'll be a good show. But they just aren't going to care.

Here's where you're missing out. PvP and Duels particularly hone your mobility skills, and sadly on a PvE server you seem to have been able to completely ignore them. Without said dance of death, mages would seem utterly bland in comparison.
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I move around plenty in PvP. In duels, I'm all over the place, and I ruthlessly abuse blink, FN, even the little snare provided by Frost Armor. In mass PvP I'm always in and out, looking for people to pick off, occasionally blinking in for AoE runs. That's because mobility matters in PvP. I have well-developed movement skills; they just don't matter in PvE. Mobs ignore most of the benefits of moving and instance design emphasizes the negatives. Mobs don't have that moment of frozen action when I blink out and they realize that I could be virtually anywhere; they don't run in circles frantically trying to catch sight of me. Their spells don't fail because they don't have the proper facing; their melee attacks don't miss because they're five yards away.

The issue is not conflating PvP combat with PvE instances. Mobility's value is unquestioned in PvP: even warriors and rogues hop around when fighting point-blank. But just as aggro control is worthless in PvP, mobility's advantages vanish faster than most might expect in PvE. The game is just designed that way.

[Skandranon]

One last thing. I'd like to apologize to nobbie for hijacking his thread, but I hope the discussion here has been useful and educational, as all threads in this forum aspire to be. I know I've learned a lot about warlocks. I hope others have learned things as well.

[Quark]

I don't deny that they can dance and that it might be spectacular.  I deny that they can dance and that it will be effective.  Spectacular doesn't equal effective.  Spectacular makes its greatest impact on people who don't play mages, and is least interesting to people who do.
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Agreed. The first few times I was grouped as a mage, if I got aggro I would FN, Blink, and keep going trying to stay away from the enemy. It's fun, maybe, but not particularly effective. The mobs still got to me and hurt quite a bit, actually. Now, I just try to not get aggro. If I do, I stand there and take the hits, maybe throwing up a Mana Shield.

Players moving around b/c they have aggro is not only not that effective, it makes it that much hard for others to get aggro. I've played without a tank and taken it upon myself as a Rogue to save Priests. One of these Priests would run around like a maniac when being attacked. I would end up doing something like a 1 point Kidney Shot (what a waste) to keep the thing still for 2 seconds so I could actually attack it and get some aggro myself.

[Quark]

...Ranged DPS ...
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I'm not sure where the best spot for this is, it's a point I thought of later, so I'll just start here.

Skan mentions in other areas Mage DPS being lower sustained than others realize. I'd like to talk about this a little more, though I'll ignore classes I don't know well enough. For my Rogue, if I'm playing without a true tank, I'm only holding back a little bit. Sure, I'm casting Feint more, but it's basically there as a precaution (pre-Eviscerate), and as a backup (post crit Evis). But because of Feint, I'm still attacking at nearly the same rate. There's also Vanish, but I don't like using Vanish to get rid of aggro, unless that aggro really means I'm going to die.

For Hunters, they have Disengage and Feign Death. Now, I haven't used those skills myself, but I watch Hunters regularly do a crit Aimed Shot (tons of damage), use one aggro-reducing skill, then go right back to fighting normally. So, it seems to me, they're not really losing any DPS for a group.

Now, Mages. Aggro reducing skills? Nope. Talents? Arcane Subtlety. It's frontloaded (20%, then 10%, then 10%), so I have 1 point into it. That point will probably be gone eventually. It helps Arcane Missiles, IAE, and maybe Polymorph? For Arcane Missiles, I try only casting that on clearcasts in groups. In groups I'm frequently spamming Scorch hoping for clearcasts and increasing mana efficiency. So AM isn't helped too much, since it's hard to get aggro spamming Scorch. Getting Subtlety for IAE is a joke as I see it - what's the benefit of 1 mob out of 8 not attacking you? Polymorph anger is not that hard to deal with, from what I've seen.

So Mages are left with pretty much nothing for reducing aggro. As stated before, I don't think doing anything offensive, besides maybe FN, when you get aggro is a good idea. It's another reason the first rank of Frost Nova is the best - you're getting less aggro on the mobs. Thus Mages, more than other DPS classes, have to be highly concerned with their aggro. You may learn to skirt the curve really well, and be doing just as much damage as you can without getting aggro, but you'll get burned. You'll do something stupid, or get an (un)lucky crit, and you've got aggo. Take a few hits from a particularly damaging mob, and you learn to hold back on the damage even more.

This makes it pointless to compare raw spell damage of Mages to other DPS classes. They have escape mechanisms to hit when they go too far, Mages don't. So a well played Mage loses more DPS going from solo to group play than most other classes. I say well played because the poorly played Mage will do plenty of damage, but will end up dead himself.

[KiloVictor]

Disclaimer: I can't actually execute the tactics we're talking about, I just play with people that can.

We've heard it directly from the Blizzard CMs.  Mages are supposed to specialize in AoE damage.  And yet, strangely, they don't have the highest DPS AoE.

They have the highest *effective* AoE DPS, because they can move around and deploy it instantly. Warlock AoE hits harder on each tick, but it's so much more limited in how and when you can apply it; the net effect is that a mage combining mobility + instant cast will deal out more AoE damage than any other class.

Simply changing IAE to inflict 300-330 damage per cast would do a lot to make mages at least slightly closer on the usefulness scale to the warlock.

I think they haven't done this simply because IAE at that level would be insanely overpowered in the hands of a mage playing the "dancer" style.

Blast wave doesn't count.  You can't select what you want to snare with it, the snare is 5 seconds against a 45 second cooldown, and the fact that it's AoE and does serious damage means that it's going to cause aggro problems left and right.  Technically, I was wrong, but not practically.

You snare everything that's already coming towards you by virtue of the quick lap of IAE that started the attack. If you made that lap with an eye to the direction you're going after popping the blast wave, you probably won't get hit at all as you run out.

Having aggro is not the problem; standing still while you're at the top of the hate list is the problem. A mage needs to be Most Hated™ for a kiting AoE attack to be effective.

Against masses of non-elites...yes, except that the Blizzard at the end doesn't do a whole lot.  You can chew up hordes of non-elites with that, except that Warlocks can do it with more damage and higher efficiency.

Sorry, I don't agree. The warlock can lay down one or two hard-hitting AoE attacks per battle while the mage can zip around and land many more small attacks. The death by a thousand cuts is far more damaging to the mobs, in my experience.

As for the effectiveness of blizzard coupled with other mage AoE, I suggest you try it out in-game. Take three mages, a tank, and a healer into Scholomance. Shield the tank, charge the mobs, and work an AoE/chilling/kiting attack. Don't bother with the non-elites, tackle a 3-4 mob elite group. It's incredibly effective.

Except that having low HP gets you chewed up no matter how much you move.  Mobility, by itself, isn't an attribute unless it has concrete effects.  Your implication here is that the mobility and instant casts result in the mage getting hit less, which is simply not the case.

My contention is exactly that: mobility is key for a mage. Not getting hit is the best kind of healing. :)

I play the healer for the groups in question. The mage gets a shield and a renew, and I spend my time worrying about the rest of the party. We're obviously never going to agree on this point, but I do encourage you (or anyone else reading this) to try it out.

AoEing in any situation which isn't an AoE situation is begging for massive aggro issues as every mob but one suddenly comes loose from the tank and goes after you.  Yes, you can grab aggro from the tank that way, kite them around a bit and bring them back to the tank.  But there's no virtue to doing that; why not leave the mobs on the tank and bring back the breakout?  Your solution works, but it's for a problem you create.  If you don't AoE inappropriately in the first place, it turns out that you don't need to kite.

Any situation can be made an AoE situation if you have a group that's practiced in the tactics. Ok, not any situation... but AoE kiting tactics really take DPS per mana expended to a new level, so if you have it in the tactical toolbox, it becomes the quickest way to deal with a lot of encounters.

I think the disconnect here is the idea that mages shouldn't draw aggro. On big single tartget battles (i.e. boss fights), I agree. But drawing aggro is a key part of AoE kiting tactics, so in this case, it's a feature.

The obvious danger in using these tactics is that you let the mage start something that he or she can't finish. If the mage runs OOM, or gets silenced, or goes LD, you will likely wind up with a dead mage. Fortunately the tank can quickly get aggro again and the mobs will be much easier to put down, so losing the mage doesn't necessarily mean a wipe.

That said, timing is everything with these tactics. Don't start too soon, or blow all your mana at once, or get caught without a snare ready to fire, and it should all be OK.

That's both true and irrelevant.  Being able to run and gun is a PvP advantage - not a PvE advantage.

Again, this is the crux: the reason that mages are AoE kings is that they can take the AoE to the target, and therefore deploy their (admittedly weaker per attack) AoE to a much greater net benefit than the warlock. It's equally true in PvE as PvP, it may in fact be more important in PvE because there are so many fewer things such as silence/counterspell in a PvE fight that will counter these tactics effectively.

Run and gun in Molten Core and see how far that gets you.
Fearsome?  If you say so.  But fearsome or not, two mages stacking IAE and blizzard are doing 25% less damage than two warlocks stacking Hellfires.

Firelords + Lava Spawn. Best way to burn 'em down quick is to tank the spawn close to the spawner and dump blizzard and IAE over the whole area. That doesn't mean *all* the mages in our raids go AoE, some stay on single-target DPS too.

However, the idea of attacking fire elementals with hellfire seems tactically suboptimal at best.

I'm not saying mage AoE isn't good.  But how about, say, having the class that's supposed to be best at AoE actually, you know, be best at AoE?  Is this such a novel concept?

I know I'm getting tediously repetitive, but I still think mages are the most effective AoE class in the game by far, simply because they can deliver AoE on the run. I think the mobility more than counters the theoretically heavier hit of the warlock's AoE.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

The frustration only comes after months at level 60.  It's not something that's apparent immediately.
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Again, not trying to be inflammatory, but if you're frustrated, maybe it's time to experiment with a different playstyle. Try out some AoE kiting, it might be fun.

Cheers,
Kv

[Xanthix]

What do mages bring to a group?[right][snapback]75614[/snapback][/right]

I can see that all of you posting here have brought up very good points, but I'd like to add a few reasons why I appreciate mages.

First, curse removal, which has been mentioned. There are some bad curses in instances, plus extremely bad ones in raid content. As a priest, it is my pet peeve that I can't remove these, so I like having a mage who can.

Second, taking out runners. IMHO no class can stop a fleeing mob like a mage can. They have range, burst damage, and movement slowers like frost bolt and cone of cold. My mage friend contributes most of our DPS but even if he didn't, he is always the one to take down runners.

Third, counterspelling. I (and most instance-friendly priests) do not have silence, so the mage having a ranged silencer is priceless.

Then of course there are all the things like poly, dps, arcane intellect, water, detect magic, and portals, but you've discussed those. :)

[vor_lord]

Fearsome?  If you say so.  But fearsome or not, two mages stacking IAE and blizzard are doing 25% less damage than two warlocks stacking Hellfires.  I'm not saying mage AoE isn't good.  But how about, say, having the class that's supposed to be best at AoE actually, you know, be best at AoE?  Is this such a novel concept?

How would two warlocks stack hellfire without a paladin? I'm honestly asking -- the channeled stationary nature of hellfire has to count for something against it.

No disagreement, but why is it that everyone must bring this up?  It's like the free mount argument for Paladins.  "It's okay that everything else you have is second rate, because you have one thing you can do well."?  Never mind that every other class has at least four things that they're the best at.
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I think to know a classes weaknesses you must play it. I think you would be extremely hard pressed to find 4 things that _any_ single class is best at, let alone each one of them. Those that play those classes will be quick to give an argument as to why they aren't the best.

The paladin for example -- I would have to say that they are the hardest to kill when alone. Nothing else comes to mind. There might be something else, but three more things? I would say mages are the best at CC and AoE -- but I am not focused on their weaknesses like someone who has played one so much.

Naturally as you have probably more experience with a mage than most anyone (reaching far back into beta iirc?) you have become frustrated with their weaknesses. I would have to say the same about my own class. Isn't this why so many have altitis?

For me, with no experience playing a mage (but plenty partying with one and a warlock), the idea that a warlock is better at AoE is very surprising to me. A warlock can't even apply it without two kinds of help (some way to keep from being interrupted and healing). Perhaps we just need to learn better tactics?

edit: I see you have a 60 paladin. Can you tell me what 4 things I could be best at if I knew how to better play my class?

[KiloVictor]

So Mages are left with pretty much nothing for reducing aggro.  As stated before, I don't think doing anything offensive, besides maybe FN, when you get aggro is a good idea.  It's another reason the first rank of Frost Nova is the best - you're getting less aggro on the mobs.  Thus Mages, more than other DPS classes, have to be highly concerned with their aggro.  You may learn to skirt the curve really well, and be doing just as much damage as you can without getting aggro, but you'll get burned.  You'll do something stupid, or get an (un)lucky crit, and you've got aggo.  Take a few hits from a particularly damaging mob, and you learn to hold back on the damage even more.

Agreed that they can't shed aggro. However, if they can keep the angry mob at range and continue dumping damage into the mob until it croaks, it's not a problem. Admittedly, it's very tough to do, and that's why it's all the more impressive when you see it done well.

This makes it pointless to compare raw spell damage of Mages to other DPS classes.  They have escape mechanisms to hit when they go too far, Mages don't.  So a well played Mage loses more DPS going from solo to group play than most other classes.  I say well played because the poorly played Mage will do plenty of damage, but will end up dead himself.
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Yep, playing a mage takes judgement as to when you can open up and go flat-out on the damge. Too soon, and you're going to have an injured angry mob pounding on your sad little OOM hide.

But I don't think a mage has to despair of getting a high DPS output in a group; I think a group that's ready for AoE kiting tactics actually allows the mage to be many times more effective than he or she could be solo. The multiplication effect of hitting many targets with each cast is a huge lever for increasing DPS, it's just risky... as it ought to be.

I'd agree that an average mage has to tone down the DPS in a group, but I think a really good mage has a chance to kick it up a notch, knowing that there are healers and other attackers to support and compliment the mage's unique attack capabilities.

Kv

[savaughn]

She died quickly and I finished off the two mobs. She then proceeded to berate me for not keeping her safe. :rolleyes:
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I am, myself, a fairly big fan of the "tough love" approach to pulling aggro. :wub: Tal, your solution was perfect - inform her that your job is to control aggro, not keep her safe. If she prevents you from controlling aggro, then ... :shuriken:

[Phoenix]

I don't have anything specific to say about this thread, but I do want to note that I've learned a LOT of stuff. Best thread in a long time, IMO.

[Lissa]

Simple question, but probably not so simple answer:

Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output -  that could convince me to play a Mage instead of a Priest with his self-healing ability and buffs?
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To answer your original quest about the Shadowpriest, yes, the Shadowpriest is one of the best soloers out there, almost as good as a Warlock on what they can take on. During beta, I played a Shadowpriest all the way up to 60 and never respected after going Shadow. I was able to act as primary healer in the high end instances without ever switching to Holy or Discipline, I wasn't as efficient, but I could effectively heal and keep people alive, so don't ever let someone say that you can't be an effective healer while Shadow speced, you can, it just takes more work on your part to know when to use which healing spells.

But back to the issue at hand, the Shadowpriest can do things that only a Warlock can do, take on high level Elites solo with a high probability of success in winning (Ori was constantly out playing with the dragonkin and giants along with other elites out in the wilds). The reason why the Shadowpriest can pull this off is three fold, the mana efficency of Mind Flay combined with the power of Psychic Scream and the damage reduction and damage boost of Shadowform. These three powers will allow a Shadowpriest to devestate mobs that other classes can't hope to solo with a high probability of success. During Beta, Ori would take on lv 54 and 55 elites with ease, with the recent changes that have made Elites a little easier, a Shadowpriest might even be able to successfully solo lv 56 and 57 elites with a high probability of success, especially if you are willing to look at Eagle gear or other cloth armors with good amounts of Int and Stamina (because you are casting the entire time, Spirit is useless in the actual fight and only useful after the fight concludes with spirit tap to get your mana back up quickly).

In truth as well, I don't think there is a way to convince someone that wants to go Shadow on a Priest to take a Mage over said Priest. A Shadowpriest has just as good, if not better DPS than a Mage if properly setup. PWF lets you stay in the fight longer than AI. PWS is better than Mana Shield for keeping damage off you. The only downside is you have to buy drinks instead of being able to make your own.

[Bolty]

I don't have anything specific to say about this thread, but I do want to note that I've learned a LOT of stuff. Best thread in a long time, IMO.[right][snapback]75701[/snapback][/right]

Huge second on this. These are the threads that make this site great, and we can always use more of them. I guess all we need are arguments to get them!

-Bolty

[LochnarITB]

Huge second on this.
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Might as well jump on the bandwagon. I have read this thread with great interest. I have a request/suggestion for Drasca and Skan. If you get the itch to start another alt, if you haven't already done so, would you each start one of the opposing class? Push them to near cap and then revisit this thread. I would love to see the analysis the two of you could then make.