Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW?

[Malakar]

I see their point, however: If the "Uber Minions" (Infernal, Doomguard) shall be limited in their usage because of their extreme power, then the Warlock's "best" standard minion - the Felhunter - should combine the "best of both worlds" of the Voidwalker and the Succubus in a satisfying fashion, which is unfortunately not yet the case.

I think the intention of the felhunter is simply to be an anti-spellcaster summon, serving a unique purpose like the other summons. It seems it's Blizzard's intention for all of the summons to remain useful throughout the game, and I think they did a good job of that in my limited experience.

[Drasca]

Can you elaborate a bit on that? :)
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Sure thing. As others have described, mages are the 'burn out' caster class who can do a lot of damage in short time with multiple snare and escape abilities. Priests can be very difficult to kill so long as they have mana, or aren't interrupted, but somewhat limited escape abilities and low damage overall.

Warlocks... warlocks are different from all of them. Many backloaded damage spells best over time, a pet-class, generally 'escape' skills. Very few 'on the run' instant cast spells that are direct damage, defense orientated, or recastable. High mana cost and long preperation times on skills. Pet takes 10 seconds and approx 1/3-1/2 current mana, armor spell takes 1/2 mana, one healthstone 1/4 mana pool. Soul shard farming takes long long minutes. There are also insanely long cooldowns. Its also very easy to lose anything we prepare instantly. All that 'prep' time, and no escape skills makes us victum to being very vulnerable when battles are decided in mere seconds.

In "PvP" servers where you're always flagged except in horde territory, you make a big target for all. You'll be killed over and over, until you get good. . . even then, you're a bigger target than priests. Yes priests. Why do warlocks take higher priority? Considered easier targets to kill, can frustrate the enemy better (fear/dots cause panic), considered more contribution points, and poorly protected by other party members. High priority and perceived ease to kill, low priority to protect.

However... that said, warlocks are extremely strong PvE, especially in longer battles. Warlocks never truly run out of fighting juice. Where other classes have generally limited opporunity to self bandage, to regain mana, warlocks create opporunity.

You can engage multiple targets without attracting aggro to yourself (until too late for them), do very steady damage at low mana cost, be mana postitive throughout battles while healing yourself and do damage to enemy, regularly defeat elites above your level, and generally solo the impossible with skill, talent and grace. At your best, you are a one-man demon god.

Pet attack, Curse, DoTs, life tap, life drain cycles to be mana positive during active combat. Its efficiency improves with affliction talents improved life tap, life drain, shadow mastery, dark pact and increased shadow/magical effects equipment. You can effectively fight forever, gaining both mana and health back through time (albiet at a slow steady pace).

Your choice of pets is dynamic, able to fulfill support, off-tank, crowd control, damage dealing, and debuffing roles on your command. Succubus can deal damage or crowd control humanoids. Voidwalker is an excellent tank especially when supported by health funnel. Felhunter removes enemy buffs and debuffs off friends, stops casters, and may reduce enemy attack power in PvE. In PvP felhunter really shines as enemies depend on buffs and stealth--both advantages the felhunter can reduce or remove entirely. It is truly a mage-killer, and a priest killer too, as removing the 'bubble of love' PW:Shield elimates priest ability to sustain damage. Felhunters work great against bosses too, especially ones with aoe debuffs, powerful casting abilities which can be locked down or reduced. Your tank frozen by a magic buff? Feared? Priest busy too? No problem! Target your warrior and Devour magic.

Need to remove a humanoid for periods out of battle? Charm him with your succubus. Enemies too numerous, too strong, battle too hectic? Bring out the voidwalker. He'll be your bodyguard, intercept aggro off your priests and fellow casters before they can touch you, and keep'em busy while your party can focus. Imp? That's for your go-to guy when you have no shards, and when you're feeling lazy. He has limited burst damage that can't be ignored, good party buffs, and doesn't cost the all precious soul shard.

Given the need for slow steady damage (rather than aggro stealing burst damage), pet/damage/aggro management, life + mana health cycle management, long preperation times... means for long long battles against difficult multiple targets with many restrictions and pieces of information to keep mindful of. That's frustrating for most. Played well however, your abilities as a warlock are nothing less than astounding. I've fought add after add of mobs solo, engaged multiple and higher level targets, taken down whole sections of instances of equivalent level solo, and commit no less than astonishing feats of battle.

As a warlock, you are born to engage, control, weaken and defeat multiple and numerically stronger targets with patience and skill. Mages and Priests are limited by overall mana, and very limited spirit/equipment and talent mana regeneration. Warriors by health. Rogues by their cooldowns and ability to lose aggro through stealth mid battle and pop back up refreshed before mobs auto-run and heal. Shamans by their damage done before their mana runs out through healing or attack spells, similarly with druids. Warlocks? No such limitations. We may become both mana and health positive through a long-lasting battle against single targets.

Who else can regularly apply first aid while actively engaging a mob? Who else takes 5 minutes to battle one target otherwise impossible for other classes solo?

Fear is the warlock's signature ability, but PvE soloing is where Warlock is king. Warlocks are also great at many other roles, and though not best at them, are among the few that can and the only which can do it all. One of two pet classes, one of two high damage AoE classes, one of the few true crowd controllers, a competitive ranged damage class (sometimes able to out burst damage mages, though not consistently), and has abilities unique to the class--particularly summoning players across continents and instances. Rezzers dead, path to entrance entrance repopped? So long as warlock and two others are alive, there is no true wipe. Summon reinforcements.

All these wonderful abilities however, are double or triply penalized. That is why a warlock is a masochist. Spells less powerful than mages? Fine. We have pets that contribute to damage, that makes sense. 10, 15 minute cooldowns too? Ehhh? Long cast time, lower damage, and costs a soul shard (which takes minutes to farm).. umm? Pets take long time (opening up for interrupts by attack, stun, silence), large mana cost, and are lost by path finding issues and mounting up. Ohhh... greeaaat. Life drain. Channeled, interruptable, low dps, requires remaining stationary while facing target, and is dispellable? Um. The first four, are ok... but dispellable? That's stinky cheese.

Powerful end-game pets? Suuure... when they do work. The cost? High mana, costly reagents, 1 hour (yes one hour) cooldowns, low chance to pop and keep, and extreme chance to turn on caster within seconds. So what? Can't use them because can't keep them after long time, shard farming, monetary and invenotry space preperation costs, and on top of that they're most dangerous to the caster himself. Can they be banished and feared easily? Yes. Too easy to counter, while all the costs and dangers are on the caster.

Have I used them to turn the tide of battle occasionally? Very rarely, but yes. I loved summoning an infernal on top of both priest and paladin alliance while my fellow horde charged for shock value. I was hoping I'd be lucky enough to summon near the priest, and possibly stun him. That utterly broke alliance ranks. . . that one time. I was lucky enough to have a doomguard spawn and a party who communicated in a recent 5 man LBRS run too. He was very useful through a boss battle against Halcyon the giant wolf. However, that's under very controlled conditions and with a very lucky spawn. He'd be feared, banished and tapped by my own allies so I couldn't enslave/reenslave otherwise. Or, when he'd turn on me I'd be obliterated by my own pet with allies too busy to support me (if I had any), and enemies all too ready to finish me. Any one of these penalties alone are balancing, summed together, they are devastating to the warlock class.

[Skandranon]

Firstly, I think this was a good post about the warlock's exceptional strengths in PvE, as well as the many aggravating issues which make warlocks less fun to play.

I'd like to take issue with one point, however.

Spells less powerful than mages? Fine.
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I've made the point before, but I'll make it again. Factor in curses and most warlock spells are at par or better than their mage equivalents. And warlock AoE is simply better; the highest DPS AoE in the game.

Yeah, I went there. Everyone always holds up Instant Arcane Explosion as the state of the art of AoE. IAE supposedly has 253 dps vs. the 208 dps of hellfire - clearly better, right?

It would almost be right. But that statement hangs on one critical assumption: that the global spell timer is 1.0 seconds. It isn't. It's 1.5s. IAE can only be fired at most every 1.5s, even though it's instant cast, which puts IAE's damage down to 169 dps. Hellfire, however, correctly pulses once a second, scoring 208 dps.

Yes, that's right. Mages, the class that specializes in AoE damage, don't have the highest DPS AoE in the game. IAE is also less efficient then Hellfire. Yes, Hellfire has drawbacks, but add a fire protection potion and a Concentration aura and mix well to get rid of those. In contrast, there's virtually nothing that a party member can do to make IAE better.

At least there's something warlocks can do besides DPS. Mages are supposed to do it, and yet, somehow, they don't.

[Drasca]

Yeah, I went there.  Everyone always holds up Instant Arcane Explosion as the state of the art of AoE.  IAE supposedly has 253 dps vs. the 208 dps of hellfire - clearly better, right?
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For sheer dps (which doesn't really matter in a raid setting), hellfire can easily be upped to 242 from demonic sacrifice, and potentially another 10% from destruction talents. However, it is easily interruptable, has a high base mana and health cost (which is mana to the warlock), and requires staying still.

In addition, channeled spells like this do not crit.

The advantage isn't in DPS or mana efficiency, its in mobility. Running AoE >> channeled standing.

Warlocks can out-dps mages in certain situations, but normally that's a horrible waste of mana or talent most of the time.

[Lissa]

Yes, that's right.  Mages, the class that specializes in AoE damage, don't have the highest DPS AoE in the game.  IAE is also less efficient then Hellfire.  Yes, Hellfire has drawbacks, but add a fire protection potion and a Concentration aura and mix well to get rid of those.  In contrast, there's virtually nothing that a party member can do to make IAE better.

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Big problem though is convincing the Pally to switch to concentration while you hellfire. Most Pallys outright refuse even if you explain why because they would rather have Devotion up instead of seeing the Warlock do 3000+ damage to each mob within the radius. I have only had one Pally I asked ever switch to concentration.

[Bolty]

Drasca,

That was flat-out one of the best posts I have EVER read that describes what it is to be a Warlock. I often state that Warlocks are the most challenging yet most rewarding classes in the game, but can never seem to explain why. The joy of wiping out a whole camp of mobs in one solo fight vs the annoyance of being obliterated by a particular mob/player because you weren't set up for it. The sheer pleasure of feeling like a general the way you can control the flow of a whole battle with your pet, curses, and crowd control, followed by the pain of being killed in 2.5 seconds by a rogue or being unable to provide any significant damage to a target *quickly* like other classes can.

Warlocks are truly unique, but they weren't ready for release in beta and they still aren't ready. But thanks for this excellent post that sums it all up so well!

-Bolty

[Icebird]

Great post Drasca. Warlocks are an incredibly adaptable class, able to switch tactics depending on the needs of the battle. But for all the cool things we can do, there are still numerous frustrations with the class: the need for large quantities of soul shards for effective PvP, the unreliability of the end game pets, the frequency with which pets vanish during long rides and so on.

Chris

[KiloVictor]

I see their point, however: If the "Uber Minions" (Infernal, Doomguard) shall be limited in their usage because of their extreme power, then the Warlock's "best" standard minion - the Felhunter - should combine the "best of both worlds" of the Voidwalker and the Succubus in a satisfying fashion, which is unfortunately not yet the case.
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Well, I agree that "best" should go in quotes, but I don't think there is a "best" pet for the 'lock. I think that's part of the class utility that they're trying to build, and I think that's what keeps the class interesting.

Personally, I'm an imp fan. Improved imp for DPS, Dark Pact so I can use him as a mana battery, fear to keep us from being hit -- that's my standard solo M.O. But I switch pets a lot, depending on what I'm doing and who I'm grouped with.

No revelation here, but the pets break out with great uses for each: Imp for damage, Void for tanking, Sexybus for damage (just shy of an imp) and CC, and Felhunter for magic-heavy encounters (debuff eater, stealth detector, and caster-killer). Once of the coolest things about the warlock is that they can go from DPS and group buff to CC to debuffer and dispeller just by whipping up a new pet. In a party, this makes you one of the most valuable classes around, because you bring a lot of utility.

However, the downside is that there's no "best" pet, there's just a pet that's situationally better than the others. I'm sure that Infernal and Doomguard will fit into this model, I just don't think that the players yet understand where they fit. I'm hopeful (but not convinced) that Blizzard has a design for them that just hasn't quite been executed properly yet. And once it's implemented, we will still need to figure it out.

That's why I think a lot of the B.net folks have their knickers in a twist over this; they're working from a mental model that says each new pet must be "better" than the last, 'cause it only becomes available at a higher level. I think more players would love the class if they adjusted their pet perceptions just a bit.

Kv

[Drasca]

I'm sure that Infernal and Doomguard will fit into this model, I just don't think that the players yet understand where they fit.
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The infernal is a shock-trooper. Timed right, and with a little luck, he'll stun the enemies he's summoned (hint, launched) on top of for 2 seconds, then start whacking immediately. He breaks ranks, and causes enemies to lose their nerve--especially when there isn't another warlock around to banish. He's immune to fear. May be immune to stun... not sure. Either way, he scares the <insert expletive here> out of enemies, and their whole party will stop to attack it.

Last time I summoned him, I immediately sent him to attack an enemy dwarf priest whose party generally soaked damage. . . and ran quickly northward to ogrimmar gates. I actually lost control of the infernal, but by then the alliance were committed to attacking him... and I actually lost aggro! Aha! They kept on attacking the infernal after I lost control of it. No way for them to know, except that it was no longer attacking the original target and start heading toward me. It is battle chaos, and infernal aoe keeps hurting everyone. There was no way I was going to walk out there to reenslave. Uh uh. No way. No how! That's no-man's land. . . I lost control and expected to be killed by the infernal... instead... Aha I lost aggro to the alliance! Hilarious!

The doomguard however... My god. He's a beast! Cripple reduces movement to 30% for 20 seconds, attack and casting time down to 60%... and a 30 sec cooldown! That's effectively 2/3 of the battle, plus its autocast! Manual if you want but still. Cast that on a priest, and use the delicious dispel magic ability with no cooldown on the doomguard. End-game warlock demons truly strike fear in the hearts of your enemies. They're used so rarely but, that only adds to the mystery.

Played well, the warlocks are among the best duelists around. Fight and defeat any class. However some talent builds are better for solo 1v1 fighting, and others for group fighting. My build is for group combat and melee surviveability. Some will have intensely more instant damage options, some better crits, some better shadow bolts, some shard dependent... which is painful. However, I am proud to say I can consistently defeat mages, rogues and match par for well equipped warriors. Well equipped warriors who attack for 800-1k damage take some lucky nightfalls, or a death coil / fel domination cooldown to assure victory though. I must admit their newfound weapons are painful to absorb.

Shadow priests... that depends on the priest. I haven't fought good ones in a while. The rest... die.

Warlocks are simply gods... with many an achilles heel.

[Tal]

Big problem though is convincing the Pally to switch to concentration while you hellfire.&nbsp; Most Pallys outright refuse even if you explain why because they would rather have Devotion up instead of seeing the Warlock do 3000+ damage to each mob within the radius.&nbsp; I have only had one Pally I asked ever switch to concentration.
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Ask me and ye shall receive. :)

[vor_lord]

Big problem though is convincing the Pally to switch to concentration while you hellfire.&nbsp; Most Pallys outright refuse even if you explain why because they would rather have Devotion up instead of seeing the Warlock do 3000+ damage to each mob within the radius.&nbsp; I have only had one Pally I asked ever switch to concentration.
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Does this really help all that much? Unless talented (and I don't think it's a very popular talent) it's just a 35% chance to not be interrupted. I assumed that meant it wasn't worth much with channeled spells.

Our group uses two AoE tactics: If both the mage and the warlock are doing it, let the mage pop a few off first so he holds aggro while the warlock hellfires. If just the warlock is there, I give him blessing of protection.

If concentration aura is enough to make AoE with a warlock usable more often I will have to try that.

[Lissa]

Does this really help all that much?&nbsp; Unless talented (and I don't think it's a very popular talent) it's just a 35% chance to not be interrupted.&nbsp; I assumed that meant it wasn't worth much with channeled spells.

Our group uses two AoE tactics:&nbsp; If both the mage and the warlock are doing it, let the mage pop a few off first so he holds aggro while the warlock hellfires.&nbsp; If just the warlock is there, I give him blessing of protection.

If concentration aura is enough to make AoE with a warlock usable more often I will have to try that.
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It helps a great deal. With Intesity 2/2 (70% to avoid interruption) and Concentration (35% to avoid interruption) it means that I can get every tick out of Hellfire because the aura and talent add, not one is choosen over the other. With 5+ mobs beating on me, even with the 70% from Intesity, Hellfire drops quickly, with Concentration and Intensity, all the Healer has to do is keep me alive for the spell to have full effect. A lot of Paladins, even though you explain this to them, seem to think that it is better to have Devotion up to give everyone a 5 to 7% reduction in damage and don't realize that me doing 3k+ damage to all mobs in my radius will reduce the damage taken to everyone by way more than 5 to 7% (because I have ALL the agro, mobs don't like 3k damage in 15s and my damage will out do the agro that the Healers would get by keeping me alive while I'm Hellfiring).

[vor_lord]

It helps a great deal.&nbsp; With Intesity 2/2 (70% to avoid interruption) and Concentration (35% to avoid interruption) it means that I can get every tick out of Hellfire because the aura and talent add, not one is choosen over the other.&nbsp; With 5+ mobs beating on me, even with the 70% from Intesity, Hellfire drops quickly, with Concentration and Intensity, all the Healer has to do is keep me alive for the spell to have full effect.&nbsp; A lot of Paladins, even though you explain this to them, seem to think that it is better to have Devotion up to give everyone a 5 to 7% reduction in damage and don't realize that me doing 3k+ damage to all mobs in my radius will reduce the damage taken to everyone by way more than 5 to 7% (because I have ALL the agro, mobs don't like 3k damage in 15s and my damage will out do the agro that the Healers would get by keeping me alive while I'm Hellfiring).
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Ah, there is a warlock talent to make up the difference! Thanks for explaining. I don't know if bonemage has this talent.

I've always wanted to use concentration aura to help out the party but never found a use for it beyond soloing multiple mobs (to give myself 100% uninterruptable heals). Maybe not enough other people even know about the aura to ask for it when it would be useful.

[Skandranon]

The advantage isn't in DPS or mana efficiency, its in mobility. Running AoE >> channeled standing.

The ability to run is worthless in PvE, where you'll be AoEing standing still anyway.

Warlocks can out-dps mages in certain situations, but normally that's a horrible waste of mana or talent most of the time.
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Warlocks out-dps mages just by cursing and applying attack spells. I'm not sure how that's a waste of mana or talents. Warlocks that are Destruction specced to at least 21 can do it with CoS + Shadowbolt, warlocks that are all the way to 31 can CoE + Immo + Conflag.

[Skandranon]

Played well, the warlocks are among the best duelists around. Fight and defeat any class. However some talent builds are better for solo 1v1 fighting, and others for group fighting. My build is for group combat and melee surviveability. Some will have intensely more instant damage options, some better crits, some better shadow bolts, some shard dependent... which is painful. However, I am proud to say I can consistently defeat mages, rogues and match par for well equipped warriors. Well equipped warriors who attack for 800-1k damage take some lucky nightfalls, or a death coil / fel domination cooldown to assure victory though. I must admit their newfound weapons are painful to absorb.

Shadow priests... that depends on the priest. I haven't fought good ones in a while. The rest... die.

Warlocks are simply gods... with many an achilles heel.
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Completely agree. Which is why I personally cannot support the removal of the Achilles' heel until the godlike part is toned down. Warlocks are so, so close to being the most powerful class in the game. Actually, for PvE work, I would say that they already are.

You don't deserve to have your issues looked at. Not until the other classes get fixed. If I were Blizz, I'd put Warlocks on the bottom of the list. Thankfully, that's what they seem to be doing.

[Drasca]

The ability to run is worthless in PvE, where you'll be AoEing standing still anyway.

I'm not sure how that's a waste of mana or talents.

Warlocks that are Destruction specced to at least 21 can do it with CoS + Shadowbolt, warlocks that are all the way to 31 can CoE + Immo + Conflag.
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You show your wet ears.

In general, you do *not* want to be hit (though there are times I want to steal aggro and soak damage, instead of my party healers). When fighting, your party has many snare and immobilizing effects to the enemy. Secondily, aoe has a limited range, you may not hit all of them in the first attempt--and for warlocks every attempt is extremely costly. A mobile aoe'r has a far greater chance to survive through mobile action out of enemy attack range, and manage to attack all the enemies, than a standing one. No, healers are not always an option. In a crunch, there was only myself and a mage surviving baron rivendale (I think I accidently soulstoned the mage that time) in a raid party. He managed to survive and aoe skeletons through active running aoe.

Secondarily, CoS + Shadowbolt is not innately more burst damage. Both fire and arcane options give more dps, and aren't interruptable (unint channeled Arcane missles, instant fire blast, and other instant options). In PvP, if you're just trading burst dps blows, you deserve to die.

Over the course of 10 minutes, when mana becomes a concern, warlocks do better steady damage.

Skan, play a lock on a PvP server before you think these issues are negligible.

I've seen other players and classes at their best, and they're nothing short of amazing too. Warlocks have an option to step up and shine too, but its too easy to kick the footing out from under them.

[Skandranon]

You show your wet ears.

This is an unnecessarily inflammatory comment, especially since I have a great deal more PvE experience than you do. Don't talk to me like that, Drasca. I respect your viewpoint; please respect mine.

In general, you do *not* want to be hit (though there are times I want to steal aggro and soak damage, instead of my party healers).

I like how you talk down to me as if I don't know this. Except that I don't really like it at all.

A mobile aoe'r has a far greater chance to survive through mobile action out of enemy attack range, and manage to attack all the enemies, than a standing one. No, healers are not always an option. In a crunch, there was only myself and a mage surviving baron rivendale (I think I accidently soulstoned the mage that time) in a raid party. He managed to survive and aoe skeletons through active running aoe.

Strongly disagree. I've been primary AoE through every instance in the game, and in no case has movement ever worked to enhance survivability. More to the point, you don't want to play for your own survival in a group situation. Rivendare is immune to all stuns and snares, and will never be stopped from landing a hit through simple movement - he'll always catch up in time to hit, even with blink. The correct place to AoE, even for a mage, is standing right next to him, since that's where the skeletons congregate. Even in the worst-case scenario, being able to move gains you nothing. I don't doubt the mage in your example survived, but there's no way that running could have had any effect on it.

In my experience, when you AoE, you stand still.

Secondarily, CoS + Shadowbolt is not innately more burst damage. Both fire and arcane options give more dps, and aren't interruptable (unint channeled Arcane missles, instant fire blast, and other instant options).

Shadowbolt + CoS at level 60 is about 250 dps counting only the talent Bane. Fireball, in comparison, is 212 counting Improved Fireball, and 234 counting five points in Fire Power. It's not better burst - I never claimed that - but it is superior damage.

Burst damage isn't a virtue. In an instance, if a mage does any kind of burst damage they get aggro and get shredded. I can go Fireball, Fireblast, CoC for burst damage, and then I die and do no damage for the rest of the fight.

Skan, play a lock on a PvP server before you think these issues are negligible.

Screw PvP servers. Screw PvP.

The grand majority of this game is PvE. If it's a choice between PvE balance and PvP balance, PvE balance is more important, in my opinion. I've conceded warlocks have issues on PvP servers and that's all I have to say on the subject. You cannot, however, argue that warlocks should retain their godly PvE powers based on PvP weaknesses. It just doesn't work that way.

If you're going to answer this, answer to it in PvE terms. You win the PvP argument, I'm not going any further there. But do not, anywhere, assert that just because you play on a PvP server that your attitudes are in any way better, more valid, or more relevant than mine. Apples and oranges. I'm not touching your oranges, so talk apples or get out.

I've seen other players and classes at their best, and they're nothing short of amazing too. Warlocks have an option to step up and shine too, but its too easy to kick the footing out from under them.
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I'd like to talk specifics. Seriously. Warlocks bring DPS, a pet, various forms of CC, dispels, AoE, soulstones and summonings to an instance group. In at least AoE, soulstones and summonings, they are either the best at what they do or do something no other class can do.

What do mages bring to a group?

We don't have the best DPS (rogues) or even the best ranged DPS (hunters, warlocks, shadow priests). We have the absolute WORST sustained DPS; we get a mana gem and evoc and then we go dry. We don't even have the best AoE DPS (warlocks).

Our main strengths are burst damage and *running away*, both of which are beyond worthless in any kind of instance. In solo PvE, the first is necessary to win before you get chewed to death and the second is only if you make a bad pull.

The mage's role in an instance right now is to provide the worst DPS of any "DPS class". And to vend water and turn things into sheep (and people can buy mana biscuits).

This is not balance. And until we have it, I have no sympathy for warlocks.

[Drasca]

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All right. I didn't notice you only considered PvE.

What do mages bring to a group?

Plenty. Extended rebuffable CC, AoE, Ranged DPS, Buffs that extends battle, snares, immobilizers, ability to keep enemy busy.

We don't have the best DPS (rogues) or even the best ranged DPS

PvE, all most hold back, or use alternate skills (not damage) if they want to play teamwork. Rogues won't be using combo points for damage until finishing... they'll be kicks, cheap shots, eye gouge, kidney shots, crippling poisons, etc.

Our main strengths are burst damage and *running away*, both of which are beyond worthless in any kind of instance.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Running battles are among the most important ones. Yes there are pawns which hold the line, but enemies move. When (not if) there are stray enemies which will chase your healer, or caster, you must do make a kiting skirmish. I've seen mages dance around skeletons, bugs, rats, ogres, lizards, and keep their attention while the rest of the ranged attacks pound on the enemy. In addition, that zap zap zap power is just what's needed to eliminate any non-boss mob fast enough to get 'out of combat' to drink again.

In solo PvE, the first is necessary to win before you get chewed to death and the second is only if you make a bad pull.

Only if? That's a matter of when. Body pulls happen. Bugs spawn. Rats spawn. Skeletons spawn. They don't always go for the Baron, they go for the healers in back too. I'm completely jealous of the zap zap zap of running AE while I have to run to position, hestitate to check if I can attack it all, spend oodles of mana and health to potentially finish off the skeletons while mainly just getting myself killed. I'd much rather zap zap zap, frost, steal aggro, blink, zap zap some more after gaining range advantage, all the while running with minor speed increase enchant on my boots.

The mage's role in an instance right now is to provide the worst DPS of any "DPS class".&nbsp; And to vend water and turn things into sheep (and people can buy mana biscuits)

Ha! No one wants more than one warlock in their party here (unless they're nuts or a very organised 40 man raid). Not even me half the time. There are just too many stinky warlocks. In a large scale raid... there's no holding back from damage. In 5 man, everyone holds back until the enemy is finished. I don't CoS + Shadowbolt spam until the mob is going to be dead in 10 seconds. Why would a mage open all out? That's just gets the pyro's kicked out of groups.

I think you underestimate the value of that poly ranged long duration CC in PvE. There's only one place warlocks get to use their primary CC (fear) consistently in instances, and that's by General Drakkar's bodyguards.

Do rogues get to sap all the time? No. Priest MC? No. Hunter Freeze Trap? No. Druid sleep beast? Do I try to use it all in Dire Maul north if I have a party, or making a party? YES! How important is that Poly of yours? Extreme. Useable on so many targets... and there's a synergstic effect I use with poly/saps. I curse of doom sheep'ed targets. Especially with sheeped casters who have low hit points, by the end of battle. A minute later, that last sheeped caster is at half or lower health and easily polished off by your party even at low health / mana yourself.

You underestimate your mage and its place in party's Skan. There's this and many other synergistic tricks to combine skills and own PvE. Poly/Doom is just the freshest to come to mind.

[Skandranon]

Plenty. Extended rebuffable CC, AoE, Ranged DPS, Buffs that extends battle, snares, immobilizers, ability to keep enemy busy.

Of these, only the first item is something unique to mages or done primarily well by mages. Everything else is done better by someone else, and so doesn't belong in this kind of list. Paladins add some "damage" to a group, too, but you don't add paladins for damage because it's not a role they're good at. Yes, mages add DPS, but we're fifth on the list. If I want ranged DPS, I'll go find a hunter, who comes with his own off-tank and has far superior aggro control.

The last four things you listed are basically the same thing. We have one root: Frost Nova, which has better than a 50% chance to break on the first point of damage inflicted to it, and which is on a 25-second cooldown. Non-frost mages don't get snares without driving their DPS into the dirt. Extending battle and keeping enemies busy...not sure where you're going with that, aside from frantic kiting, which can be done by a number of classes and has extraordinarily limited application.

PvE, all most hold back, or use alternate skills (not damage) if they want to play teamwork. Rogues won't be using combo points for damage until finishing... they'll be kicks, cheap shots, eye gouge, kidney shots, crippling poisons, etc.

Excellent point! Let's look at what alternate skills mages can employ.

Polymorph. Counterspell.

Wow, that was long.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Running battles are among the most important ones. Yes there are pawns which hold the line, but enemies move. When (not if) there are stray enemies which will chase your healer, or caster, you must do make a kiting skirmish. I've seen mages dance around skeletons, bugs, rats, ogres, lizards, and keep their attention while the rest of the ranged attacks pound on the enemy. In addition, that zap zap zap power is just what's needed to eliminate any non-boss mob fast enough to get 'out of combat' to drink again.

In my experience, the worst thing to do in the case of a breakout is to start kiting. You bring it back to the tank, who takes the aggro back and ends the breakout. If you're getting mass breakouts, you need to find a better tank. Going kiting when things go wrong is a surefire recipe to making sure other things go wrong.

I don't doubt that you've seen mages dancing around, but I do argue that it was in no way an advantage or better than just standing still. You cannot avoid getting hit by movement - mobs are just as fast as you are.

As for your second point about burst damage - yes, it's perfectly useful when the enemy's already been worn down to 5% health and I want to start drinking a couple seconds earlier. Excuse me if I'm not overly enthused.

Only if? That's a matter of when. Body pulls happen. Bugs spawn. Rats spawn. Skeletons spawn. They don't always go for the Baron, they go for the healers in back too.

And how does escaping help this situation at all? The responsibility of the mage in the three latter situations is to go there and AE, which is 1) moving there 2) stopping near them 3) AEing. As for the first, fleeing like a madman is far less preferable than bringing it to the tank.

In any case, if the party sets up properly, even if they go for the healer, your AE will catch them and bring them in. There's a spot you can place yourself for maximum effectiveness in this regard, which moves depending on how the party's set up. But it's there.

I'm completely jealous of the zap zap zap of running AE while I have to run to position, hestitate to check if I can attack it all, spend oodles of mana and health to potentially finish off the skeletons while mainly just getting myself killed. I'd much rather zap zap zap, frost, steal aggro, blink, zap zap some more after gaining range advantage, all the while running with minor speed increase enchant on my boots.

Are you still talking about the Rivendare encounter? After four shots of IAE (that's three seconds of Hellfire) all the skeletons are dead. You don't need to frost nova, blink, run in circles. Mages who do that aren't doing their job. Even granted that mages are better in this one encounter, which I don't necessarily agree with...one encounter out of the whole game is a pretty poor record.

Ha! No one wants more than one warlock in their party here (unless they're nuts or a very organised 40 man raid).

I agree that this is true, but only because most people underestimate warlocks. I personally can't see a reason to include more than one mage in a raid.

I think you underestimate the value of that poly ranged long duration CC in PvE. There's only one place warlocks get to use their primary CC (fear) consistently in instances, and that's by General Drakkar's bodyguards.

I don't underestimate polymorph's value at all. I don't agree, however, that its usefulness somehow makes up for the fact that the mage basically can't do anything else well. The comparison, by the way isn't poly vs. fear, but poly vs. fear/seduce/banish/enslave. You can't use them all the time, but mages have literally nothing else.

Do rogues get to sap all the time? No. Priest MC? No. Hunter Freeze Trap? No. Druid sleep beast? Do I try to use it all in Dire Maul north if I have a party, or making a party? YES! How important is that Poly of yours? Extreme. Useable on so many targets...

If I can poly it, chances are it can be sapped and MCed, too. The only difference between poly, sap and MC is that poly hits beasts as well as humanoids. You know how many elite beasts there are in the four endgame instances and Dire Maul?

One.

The spiders in LBRS are it. That's "so many targets" compared to sap and MC?

You underestimate your mage and its place in party's Skan. There's this and many other synergistic tricks to combine skills and own PvE. Poly/Doom is just the freshest to come to mind.
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I think you overestimate mages, Drasca, because you play the single most powerful PvE class in the game. You have a multiplicity of capabilities, and, despite the problems, a number of situations in which they can be applied. Mages have poly, counterspell, and many damage spells with poor DPS. I don't think you can fully understand how limited mage capabilities are. Your earlier post showed me just how many things warlocks can do: I didn't know you could also dispel magic by way of your felhunter. Even your suggested Poly/doom combo is only interesting because of CoD: sap and freeze trap work just as well. Without the warlock the mage's contribution is minimal.

While I was leveling my paladin to 60, I played in quite a few 5-man instance parties that didn't include a mage. I have seen firsthand how *not* having a mage makes very little difference. It boiled down to one less humanoid CCed. You need a whole class for...that?

[KiloVictor]

Ok, it's pretty clear from the previous post that you have strongly-held opinions on this, so please remember that this is not a reflection on you as a person, or your chosen style of play. Just a few observations, no offense intended or offered. :)

That said, I'd have to say that nothing does mass damage like a mage -- they're pure AoE kings. Mage DPS is only marginal when it's single-target DPS; stacked against multiple targets it becomes incredible.

Non-frost mages don't get snares without driving their DPS into the dirt.

Um, respectfully disagree on that one. Blastwave, anyone?

I party regularly with a fire/arcane mage, and his combination of quick-cast snares, immobilizers, and burst damage is incredible. A quick chain of flamestrike, IAE spam, blast wave, frost nova, blink, and blizzard leaves a whole lot of mobs standing there ready to be knocked over with a feather. Which he does with cone of cold, if need be.

That kind of mobility and instant-cast ability makes him *way* more powerful when it comes to AoE attacks than any warlock could ever dream of being. The warlock just doesn't have those tools, it's a key in the class design. The mage is all about low HP and big damage, moving and staying out of reach is the key tactic, and so the class gets a ton of instant-cast abilities.

The warlock is totally different, due to the life tap ability that converts HP into mana as needed. High stam/int is the way to go, so the warlock will usually have the second-highest or even sometimes highest HP in a party, and be able to take a hit or two as a result. So the class designers give them suicidal AoE attacks like hellfire, or the gimpy rain of fire which doesn't damage you, but really doesn't hit the mobs that hard either. In no case can you move, you stand there and take your hits. Sure, you can crank out big single-target hits, but you can't match the mage in HP/sec removed from a group.

In my experience, the worst thing to do in the case of a breakout is to start kiting.&nbsp; You bring it back to the tank, who takes the aggro back and ends the breakout.&nbsp; If you're getting mass breakouts, you need to find a better tank.&nbsp; Going kiting when things go wrong is a surefire recipe to making sure other things go wrong.

What better way to bring things back to the tank than by snaring and kiting them back? No better class for that than the mage, with the ability to grab aggro using moving AoE, combined with the snare/root effects of frost spells and/or blastwave.

I don't doubt that you've seen mages dancing around, but I do argue that it was in no way an advantage or better than just standing still.&nbsp; You cannot avoid getting hit by movement - mobs are just as fast as you are.

Again, I have to disagree. The ability to keep doing magework while moving is what makes mages unique. It's late, and my thinking abilities are impaired, but other than shammy totems, I can't think of a class that has the ability to run and gun anywhere close to a mage. It's a fundamental feature of the class.

I personally can't see a reason to include more than one mage in a raid.
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We take as many mages as we can get for instance farming. Stacked AoE makes so many things trivial en route to the blue-dropping bosses that it's the only way to go. Pre-patch Scholo, it was pretty much the only way it was feasible in a reasonable amount of time. Even a two-mage party in a regular instance is pretty crazy when the mages work well together -- stacked IAE and blizzard is just fearsome.

On top of that, polymorph is the gold standard in CC. For some reason, my warlock's mez will break two or three times before the average sheep pops up. Dunno if that's a bug or by design, but it's annoying.

And finally there's counterspell, which is incredibly valuable. Other than priests, mages are the only class that can instantly compell casters to melee range. And the cooldown on counterspell is much shorter than a preist's silence ability.

All things considred, I'd say that mages have it better than warlocks on most things. They're certainly less bugged and more complete as a class, which eliminates a bunch of frustration in playing them.

Kv