Is the (Shadow)Priest the better Mage in WOW?

[Artega]

Second, taking out runners. IMHO no class can stop a fleeing mob like a mage can. They have range, burst damage, and movement slowers like frost bolt and cone of cold. My mage friend contributes most of our DPS but even if he didn't, he is always the one to take down runners.
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With Curse of Recklessness, there won't BE a runner :P

I've got a warlock in her early twenties, but I got pretty bored with her; the kill-rate was too slow for me, and I despised how paper-thin my Voidwalker often seemed.

[nobbie]

I've got a warlock in her early twenties, but I got pretty bored with her; the kill-rate was too slow for me, and I despised how paper-thin my Voidwalker often seemed.
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To quote the Undead NPC's: "Remember: Patience and Discipline!" :)

Afaik, Warlocks get really good near their max. levels (50-60).

[Drasca]

Afaik, Warlocks get really good near their max. levels (50-60).
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Warlock gameplay changes radically every 5-10 levels or so. I'll pretend I am a newbie all over again.

Level 1-3: Whooo! I got an imp. This is cute. Aww he blows #$%& up.

Level 4-6: Huh. Some dots. What're these for? They take a long time to cast.

Level 8: Fear. OMG the enemy runs away ahahahaha. You can't touch me! Neener neener neener!

Hey this Curse of Agony DoT is instant... and doesn't break fear so easily. I can kite! I think I can take on the world now, and without breaking a sweat.

Maybe I'll learn that I can cast this while running in 12 hours.

Level 10: Drain soul? Healthstone? Give me a few levels to figure this all out...
Hey! A new pet! He's beefy.

Level 12-16: 6 new skills... Um. How do these work? Life drain? Life tap? What's that? I'll figure it out later. I don't need mana. Everything dies too fast. Why would I want to make myself die earlier? Recklessness... huh? I don't get it. Health funnel? Maybe I need to heal my pet sometime. SP? Why do I want half a shadowbolt? I'm used to SB.

Level 20: Ritual of Summoning... oh. So that's what everyone's been talking about... now how do I do this? Rain of Fire is kinda neat, but my dots are better for multiple targets. It doesn't steal aggro to me. I might've learned about instant corruption now. Wheeee. Dot dot dot, fear fear fear. I'm inveeencible!

Level 28: Sheesh more skills.
Banish (kinda useless right now. I like fear better).. hey demons in desolace... Oh banish is neat after all.
Eye of Kilrogg's fun. Follow the bouncing ball!
Sense demons. Neato! These satyr quests are cake.
Drain mana (toy skill, not enough mana returned, and breaks before I get all mana back while enemy beats on me),
Curse of tongues just as useless. I'd much rather have agony on it. Die fiend!
Firestone: What's this for?
What's next?

Level 30: Enslave. Drool. Cool concept. Can't really use it yet. Demons too high level. They all resist and break and kill me! Why would anyone use this?
On a side note: Drain life is neato. Same with life tap. Cast cast cast dots, send pet, life tap life tap, drain life 2x. Yay! Everything's back. No drinking needed for me!

Soulstone: Neato! Can I soulstone my pet? Soulstone myself aha! You kill me? I'm back from the dead and will kill you!

Hey I can use 1H swords. Finally discovered undercity. Its not actually underneath Ogrimmar after all...

Hellfire. Gets me killed, gets interrupted. Total waste of mana. Won't use this. Curse of elements? Curse of agony does more damage. Waste!

32-38: Hmm. Getting near top tier talents now. Might have siphon life. I kinda like this. 4 dots on a feared target baby! and one gives me life back. Useless upfront though. Detect invis,underwather breathing, and other skills still useless. Got felhunter.. he's pretty dumb to use right now. Voidwalker's my main go-to guy. I did my warlock quests... oh boy were they long and hard. I got a neato robe that'll last me forever though. +10 stam +17 int on that chest baby! All I had to do is drag myself through hell and back 7 times, develop new tactics, accomplish the impossible and make other classes look easy.

Started using RoF and hellfire in scarlet monestary. Kinda useful sometimes. Definitely not a solo skill. Health funnel's incredibly useful for tanking.

Shadowburn: Finally tried it out. Drool. Finally! Some instant damage! Just what I needed. Fighting's so slow, and frustrating... but that's been ok with me. Slow and steady, but engaging many enemies at once and coming out ahead.

Level 40: Howl of Terror... eeep! Double fear powers! yesss! I've already mastered fear. Everyone else is dreadfully afraid of me using it. No one understands me. No one wants me specifically for instances yet. Dummies. I've used this for 32 levels now. Ugh. Curse of recklessness has been useful in SM against runners.
40-50:
Curse of shadow! Now we're talking. Curse of Agony still better most of the time, but this is working for me against ogre elites in Alterac.
Enslave demon finaly working. I read abotu Curse of Shadows before enslave demon. Yep. Enslave demons doesn't work until curse.
Shadow ward: Extremely limited use. No one uses shadow. booo
Curse of Weakness... is so weak. Only good keeping people off me for a little while.
Curse of Agony still better solo.

I hate when pets die. I'm so screwed when they are. I have no way of really running away, and had none from levels 1-20. If its a close battle, I can win it. I won't run away. 1-2x adds come, I live. 3x Adds come... well. Then I die. Now... I can handle adds 1-2x at a time, sometimes. Fear rocks! Still no real running away. Sacrifice is used when available. Good voidwalker.

I got dark pact! No more mana troubles. I can fight forever now. Ok, not with the voidwalker, he uses too much mana keeping aggro, but if I keep succubus or imp out, I can!

Death coil: Oh finally an instant! Gah 10 minute cooldown. I'll practically never use this skill... just like all the rest of my niche skills.

Oh yeah! I got my felsteed. Took all of 3 talks to two NPCs. Sigh of relief for placeholder quests. I deserve it. I summon people around the world. I think that justifies having a free mount.

50-59. I have a firm mastery of everything now. I'll be running all the high level instances, and people start knowing of and wanting the power of warlocks. I've pulled off endurance and reinforcement tricks no one else can.

60: A few upgraded spells. One new spell. Doom. Neat toy. I've started on my epic dreadsteed quest... its honestly no more intensive than all the other quests and slaverings my warlock career has put up with.

Slow killing early on, insane requirements, extremely niche utility but powerful once we finally get to use it in combination with our other abilties. We're blizzard's second class citizens, driven through the dirt, and yet they fear we're overly powerful. Many untapped strengths, because this is certainly a confusing class. All skills come at awkward moments. Many of the spells don't become apparantly useful until end-game, where it isn't always possible to zerg everything. Group and Solo play abilities are radically different, and ignored through in solo play until several levels after they're obtained. Gameplay shifts dynamically as new skills make for new observations and tactics. No longer do you shadowbolt spam everything after gaining a pet, you let the pet hold aggro. Using mana efficient spells and aggro management slows the rate of killing to a crawl. Without defenisve or escape mechanisms, its either learn to manage your aggro or die.

Getting nuke happy doesn't work without DD uninterruptable (instant) spells. Our only options are life drain with maxed improved fel concentration, which still gets interrupted... Shadowburn, 11 talent points into destruction, costing us precious soul shards--so it may only infrequently be used. . . or Nightfall, which procs on chance. Death coil (instant DD) is last resort spell.

All our skills are like that. High risk. High attention factor. Life or death on the roll of a dozen dice, resist and cooldown timers we can't passively monitor. Dozens of niche skills easily forgotten. If I use this now... will it be wasted? I cannot use it again. Yes warlocks are powerful, but only the winds of fortune favor them. Warlocks are punished for screw-ups more than any class I can think of. Screw up? Make waste of your abilities? You're out of options and you're dead. You cannot defend. You cannot escape. Your pet gone? You're at less than half effectiveness. There is no 'oh #$%&' button that allows warlocks to magically escape away, snare the enemy so he cannot follow, lose aggro, or protect himself when all is lost. When all is lost, all is lost. Didn't have voidwalker out in time? Didn't get sacrifice in time? Wasted your cooldowns? Complete goner.

Its the high life all right. Your reward? You master your abilities, create the right circumstances, and you tear through whatever comes to you. Anything less than near-peak efficiency, any bit of your party making waste of your abilities, then you're simply a liability. Your debuffs get pushed off, pushing off other debuffs too, attract aggro to yourself too soon from secondary targets, panicking the tank/healers, and your off-tank / CC abilities pop early and those enemies start whacking your party healers. Oof, life as a warlock is not for carebears. Live dangerously, and exert your skills to the fullest! Then you may partially match other class abilties and pull off tricks not unique to your own class--but sometimes fantastic at a pivotal tide turning moment.

[Alram]

PvE
My Warlocks have not gone past level 30, but here goes:
I use imp only--higher DPS than a VW and a lot more fun. The kills are quick and I rarely run out of mana. A typical fight against a single target has it running back and forth between the imp and the lock. By the time it figures out who it is going to attack, it dies, and neither I nor my minion has taken much damage. I just soloed "The Weaver" quest at level 22 without dying. I did that with my mage also, but the mage died in the process. I doubt if I could solo it with a shadow specced priest, but perhaps I could solo it with a Holy priest, albeit slowly.

By the way, I have never used fear yet with this lock. I could, but it is generally unnecessary. I don'tuse the sucubus only because I have so much fun with the imp that I haven't explored it. Also the whole talent build I use is tailored around the imp. That imp is a machine gun.

In a group I feel more important with my mage. I definitely like parties better with the mage.
Now I use scorch in an instance to control mana use and not slow the group down by drinking all the time. But against a boss, I go full tilt and do not pull aggro from it. I don't know how the math works out of the mage vs. lock on DPS; they are both cool.
In a group the priest has a lot of responsibility. It is very intense and you have to enjoy it. People in your party who don't know how to play are really aggravating when you are a priest.

In summary (my opinionated view)
For solo play a warlock is tops.
In groups I like the mage.
The priest is not fun to solo, but shines as a healer.

[Skandranon]

They have the highest *effective* AoE DPS, because they can move around and deploy it instantly. Warlock AoE hits harder on each tick, but it's so much more limited in how and when you can apply it; the net effect is that a mage combining mobility + instant cast will deal out more AoE damage than any other class.

AoE is about two things. Positioning and damage. Once you've mastered positioning, mobility is not worthwhile.

You snare everything that's already coming towards you by virtue of the quick lap of IAE that started the attack. If you made that lap with an eye to the direction you're going after popping the blast wave, you probably won't get hit at all as you run out.

Blast wave, kite and IAE them for five seconds. Sure. After those five seconds, though, you can't turn or they'll catch you. You have to run off in a straight line while they die, and by the way, the mage is the only one applying damage. The tank is chasing the mobs, the rogue is chasing the mobs, the priest is chasing the mage.... And where exactly do you have that kind of space? Scarlet Bastion; Reliquary; Rookery. I just named three critical areas where there's no room to move at all. What good's the style when it only works when you don't need it?

Sorry, I don't agree. The warlock can lay down one or two hard-hitting AoE attacks per battle while the mage can zip around and land many more small attacks. The death by a thousand cuts is far more damaging to the mobs, in my experience.

Warlock ticks more frequently; they're the ones with many attacks, which also hit harder. Zipping around doesn't increase the frequency of attack.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

I think so. But please refrain from addressing me as if I have no experience ever playing a mage at all.

Again, not trying to be inflammatory, but if you're frustrated, maybe it's time to experiment with a different playstyle. Try out some AoE kiting, it might be fun.
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The assumption made here and throughout the rest of the post is that I've never ever tried it, and I'm saying it doesn't work based on no personal experience at all. Don't make it.

[Skandranon]

How would two warlocks stack hellfire without a paladin?  I'm honestly asking -- the channeled stationary nature of hellfire has to count for something against it.

Make the warlocks stand on top of each other and have them both cast Hellfire. I don't understand the problem. One warlock should start before the other in order to let the healer heal only one target.

For me, with no experience playing a mage (but plenty partying with one and a warlock), the idea that a warlock is better at AoE is very surprising to me.  A warlock can't even apply it without two kinds of help (some way to keep from being interrupted and healing).  Perhaps we just need to learn better tactics?

Mages need healing too. All warlocks need is a little assistance with the self-damage and the interruption and they're golden. The point I'm making is that nothing anyone can do can make the mage better. Even if everyone was *trying*, there's simply nothing they can do to help.

edit:  I see you have a 60 paladin.  Can you tell me what 4 things I could be best at if I knew how to better play my class?
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Paladins are best at:

1.) Party aggro control. Blessing of Salvation is one of the most powerful buffs in the game. No other class has any ability to reduce the aggro someone else puts out.
2.) Debuff removal. Nothing says debuff removal like a Cleanse: nothing else comes close.
3.) Resistances. No other class has the ability to instantly give the entire party a +60 resistance buff to whatever they're fighting.
4.) Off-tanking. In a 5-man situation, the off-tank needs to be able to hold one mob's aggro and survive with little or no attention from the party's healer. Paladins do this like no other class can.

I don't know what you were expecting, though, since I figure you do all these things while playing your class already. You probably folded them all into the heading of "can survive" but that's far too broad, especially when it's being compared against "best CC" which is a highly specific category. I ask you only to notice, while playing, the specific benefits which you bring to a party.

[vor_lord]

Make the warlocks stand on top of each other and have them both cast Hellfire.  I don't understand the problem.  One warlock should start before the other in order to let the healer heal only one target.

They'll just be interrupted. It's not the healing so much (you can use a fire protection potion and then the healing is no worse than the mage's) as the inability to use the AoE for any effective length of time. Who cares about the potential DPS of an AoE if it can't be applied?

Mages need healing too.  All warlocks need is a little assistance with the self-damage and the interruption and they're golden.  The point I'm making is that nothing anyone can do can make the mage better.  Even if everyone was *trying*, there's simply nothing they can do to help.

So because the mage requires less help to deliver his AoE he is somehow less effective at it? I'm not buying it :unsure:

Paladins are best at:

1.)  Party aggro control.  Blessing of Salvation is one of the most powerful buffs in the game.  No other class has any ability to reduce the aggro someone else puts out.
2.)  Debuff removal.  Nothing says debuff removal like a Cleanse: nothing else comes close.
3.)  Resistances.  No other class has the ability to instantly give the entire party a +60 resistance buff to whatever they're fighting.
4.)  Off-tanking.  In a 5-man situation, the off-tank needs to be able to hold one mob's aggro and survive with little or no attention from the party's healer.  Paladins do this like no other class can.

I don't know what you were expecting, though, since I figure you do all these things while playing your class already.  You probably folded them all into the heading of "can survive" but that's far too broad, especially when it's being compared against "best CC" which is a highly specific category.  I ask you only to notice, while playing, the specific benefits which you bring to a party.
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You make some good points, I think I probably take blessing of salvation for granted. All of these together in my opinion don't even add up to "best CC", with the exception I guess of some very specific places with cleanse. As you're focusing on endgame only I'll grant that cleanse is powerful. I suppose I did lump in offtanking with can survive alone. What's better though -- ability to completely and (nearly) instantly remove a target from combat, or ability to take a melee mob and possibly keep it busy?

Who'd be preferred in a party without either, a mage or a paladin? Has counterspell been mentioned in this thread? Who else can do that nearly as effectively? A priest with 21 points in the shadow tree? A warrior who must be in melee range, be correctly equipped and have sufficient rage?

Probably just my own biases from having played a paladin, but it seems to me that:

best CC + best AoE > your paladin four any day

(I'm still not buying the warlock AoE > mage AoE even though I'm not convinced by those arguing for mobility).

But I'm not at the endgame so my experience is more limited. Thanks for giving me some things to think about with respect to my paladin.

[Malakar]

They'll just be interrupted.  It's not the healing so much (you can use a fire protection potion and then the healing is no worse than the mage's) as the inability to use the AoE for any effective length of time.  Who cares about the potential DPS of an AoE if it can't be applied?

Typically there's a pally around in any raid. Concentration aura allows for hellfire to be uninterruptable. I suppose warlock AOE is much worse for horde, or in a 5 man group that has no pally.

[Malakar]

Arcane Subtlety.  It's frontloaded (20%, then 10%, then 10%)...

Frontloaded, yes, and for good reason. It has increasing returns. 60% threat means you can pump out 66% more damage for the same amount of threat. Whereas 80% threat is only 25% more.

But yes, I think this talent is lacking... simply because Arcane Missiles itself is lacking. The mana efficiency is a joke, and only brings moderate DPS. Perhaps with that item set that gives +1 second to Arcane Missiles it'd be decent.

In almost every group I'm in there's a pally that I can bug to salvation me. With salvation I can unload on bosses with fire spells, which is both higher DPS and better mana efficiency. Perhaps it's decent for horde.

[Drasca]

(I'm still not buying the warlock AoE > mage AoE even though I'm not convinced by those arguing for mobility).
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In terms of DPS, WL AoE can surpass mages.. BUT it isn't just motion, distance and speed (or lack of it) that is a problem.

There's the fact of channelling becoming interrupted. Any attack = reduced overall mana efficiency and overall damage wasted. 3 attacks and it is over. No more hellfire. 17 talent points for less interruptions? No thank you. I like demonology and afflic much better. I'm no mage. I don't want to be.

In additon, there is the huge mana cost.. 1300 mana. Can only cast that 3x maximum. I *need* to hestitate. I don't have the luxury of running aoe to test range, or spam-cast willy nilly. I have to get the timing just right, waiting for aggro, for optimum range and positioning, and if need be soul link + life tap before it... further adding and health cost to my AoE. The only standard (non talent specced) advantage is that my channeled spell isn't affected by slow cast time curses afaik.

[Xanthix]

Probably just my own biases from having played a paladin, but it seems to me that:
best CC + best AoE > your paladin four any day

Does a class need to be the best at something to be desired in groups? Some classes are good because they can fill multiple roles, even if they are not the best at an individual role. Pallies have great (if not the best) buffs, are great (if not the best) at tanking and off-tanking, have good (if not the best) healing, and can res too.

For a party I may first want to secure a tank, a healer, and some DPS, but after that I would definitely prefer a utility class to another tank/healer/DPS. I think some classes are excellent support classes, able to fill-in wherever needed to keep a party running smoothly.

[KiloVictor]

Typically there's a pally around in any raid. Concentration aura allows for hellfire to be uninterruptable. I suppose warlock AOE is much worse for horde, or in a 5 man group that has no pally.
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Definitely. If we had something that could make our warlocks' AoE uninterruptible, we could just plop him at the center of the fray and cut loose.

As it is now, hellfire's often just a good way to grab enough aggro to be first dirtnapper in the party. :)

Kv

[KiloVictor]

AoE is about two things.  Positioning and damage.  Once you've mastered positioning, mobility is not worthwhile.

I won't go so far as to categorically state it as truth, but I think mobility in combat is always worthwhile. I'm pretty sure the cliche "stand still and die" originated in combat somewhere. :)

Mobility is key to avoiding or minimizing melee damage. It cuts down on the amount of healing that my mage pal needs, and it means that he can usually take 15 seconds before the mobs have cut through PW:S, at which point I can give him another. It allows him to gather the mobs up and start the train moving. It's just a built-in part of a moving AoE tactic, although if you don't buy that moving AoE is a viable strategy, I can see why you'd make the assertion.

Blast wave, kite and IAE them for five seconds.  Sure.  After those five seconds, though, you can't turn or they'll catch you.  You have to run off in a straight line while they die, and by the way, the mage is the only one applying damage.  The tank is chasing the mobs, the rogue is chasing the mobs, the priest is chasing the mage....  And where exactly do you have that kind of space?  Scarlet Bastion; Reliquary; Rookery.  I just named three critical areas where there's no room to move at all.  What good's the style when it only works when you don't need it?

Running in a straight line isn't the way to go. Switching directions with a blink is usually preferred as it drags the mob through the same area repeatedly and our other attackers can use any AoE that they have -- it's usually only hunter volley, but we sometimes run with 'locks or shammies that can add other AoE. But the net effect is that we don't need a lot of room; in the Rookery we'll just run back and forth between Father Flame and the nearest corner.

My experience is that having mobs catch the mage is not a problem if he's shielded and has healer cover. And frost armor means that the mobs usually get a single lick at the mage, and then fall behind again.

We use all the snares we have to keep them from catching the mage. The mage has blizzard and frost nova, and we'll add shammy totems for earthbind if we have them available. Our warrior starts the whole series by working up as much aggro as he can (usually with whirlwind, cleave or sweeping strikes) then when AoE starts, he uses piercing howl and/or thunderclap on the group, and hamstrings the hardest hitter he can reach. Our hunter chips in his concussive shot on any high-damage mob and frost traps for the rest of them. When you stack these all together, and the group coordinates them so that we aren't wasting snares by stacking them, it gives us a lot of time and range for the mage to kite.

The mage never gets away untouched, but it's rare that he takes significant damage. He gets full healer attention during all this, so he can take a lot of pounding for a short time.

Warlock ticks more frequently; they're the ones with many attacks, which also hit harder.  Zipping around doesn't increase the frequency of attack.

Sorry, guess that part of my post wasn't clear. The zipping around enables him to bring the attack to the mobs, so we can make sure none of them escape the AoE. That's one of the biggest benefits he brings over having a warlock do AoE. No, it doesn't increase the frequency of attack.

As for warlock dots, corruption, agony and siphon life only proc every three seconds, so they come out about equal to a mage spamming AE -- in a longer fight, they'd probably start to pull ahead due to stacking effects. But the overhead of casting time means that the lock needs a while just to get all his dots deployed on the targets. We're going for fast and furious, so we never bother with 'lock dots. Curse of elements is usually more bang for the buck.

I think so.  But please refrain from addressing me as if I have no experience ever playing a mage at all.

The assumption made here and throughout the rest of the post is that I've never ever tried it, and I'm saying it doesn't work based on no personal experience at all.  Don't make it.
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I didn't assume that. I read your posts as saying categorically that 1) mages didn't have the best AoE damage in the game, and 2) the AoE kiting tactics that were being discussed were "of marginal utility" at best. I don't agree, that's all.

My experience is the opposite, and I'm trying to lay out the tactics my regular playgroup (which is a core of four: my priest, a hunter, our tank, and a mage) uses to max our AoE effectiveness, including specific class skill usage and party member responsibilities while we're doing it.

I'm attempting to disagree civilly and specifically. I've inferred a lot of "it won't work, don't bother" from your responses, but no "I've tried that, and here's why I don't like it". So perhaps I assumed you've never tried the tactics, but I didn't assume you've not played the mage to a high level. The fact that you have is obvious in your stickied guides and the other postings you've made here.

I just happen to play with a mage that plays all-out for aggro, and we've learned as a group to make that work for us. Rereading your guide, for instance, you write about blizzard as a closer skill to ensure you don't get aggro. My buddy, OTOH, opens with blizzard because he wants the aggro -- he wants all the mobs clustered, chilled, and coming towards him. It's part of his different style.

So I'm not saying you're not knowledgeable in the class, I'm just talking about a different playstyle. And I guess I did implicity assume that you had no experience in it, because nothing you've written to date comes from that perspective. My apologies if that comes across as condescending, it's not intended that way at all.

No offense or disrespect intended or implied. We're just talking about two different things, I guess.

Cheers,
Kv

Edit: damn typos

[vor_lord]

Does a class need to be the best at something to be desired in groups? Some classes are good because they can fill multiple roles, even if they are not the best at an individual role. Pallies have great (if not the best) buffs, are great (if not the best) at tanking and off-tanking, have good (if not the best) healing, and can res too.

For a party I may first want to secure a tank, a healer, and some DPS, but after that I would definitely prefer a utility class to another tank/healer/DPS. I think some classes are excellent support classes, able to fill-in wherever needed to keep a party running smoothly.
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I certainly don't think a class needs to be the best at something to be desired in groups. And it appears this subthread has turned into "what's better, paladin or mage?" which is in no way my intent. I think there are inherent play problems with the paladin, but that doesn't mean I'm unhappy with the class in general or feel I am not useful.

I just don't feel convinced that mages are not very useful in the end game. I guess I'll see. The comparison was incidental to the discussion of Skan's premise that the mage class is lacking for end game content.

[Skandranon]

They'll just be interrupted.  It's not the healing so much (you can use a fire protection potion and then the healing is no worse than the mage's) as the inability to use the AoE for any effective length of time.  Who cares about the potential DPS of an AoE if it can't be applied?

One of them will be interrupted. The other won't. Two warlocks is actually even more effective since the first warlock will be the only one taking damage, getting interrupted and burning mana; all the others get to AoE free.

So because the mage requires less help to deliver his AoE he is somehow less effective at it?  I'm not buying it  :unsure:

No. What I'm saying is that the max potential DPS of Warlock AoE is greater than the max potential DPS of mage AoE.

What's better though -- ability to completely and (nearly) instantly remove a target from combat, or ability to take a melee mob and possibly keep it busy?

When the mob (like all of them in Molten Core) is immune to all forms of CC, I choose the second. The best thing about offtanking is that it works on everything. You'll never run into a creature which is immune to offtanking. That makes it quite a versatile tactic.

Who'd be preferred in a party without either, a mage or a paladin?

You can't ask that question without talking about the other members of the group. If your group is warrior, priest, rogue, warlock, the obvious choice is paladin: if it's priest, paladin, druid, hunter, you might think about the mage. But in just about every case where you might want to fill the slot with a mage, a warlock fills the slot better.

Has counterspell been mentioned in this thread?

Several times. Rogues and Priests can both generate a similar effect. The Warlock's Felhunter does something which is functionally identical to Counterspell - and really, that's the biggest issue. Rogues' and Priests' versions are slightly more difficult to pull off, but the Warlock's essentially isn't.

(I'm still not buying the warlock AoE > mage AoE even though I'm not convinced by those arguing for mobility).

Well, if you won't be convinced by arguments and still won't change your mind, I don't know what else I can say. All I'll add is that it's difficult to understand the problems until you've played a mage extensively at endgame.

[Skandranon]

There's the fact of channelling becoming interrupted. Any attack = reduced overall mana efficiency and overall damage wasted. 3 attacks and it is over. No more hellfire. 17 talent points for less interruptions? No thank you. I like demonology and afflic much better. I'm no mage. I don't want to be.

Okay, that's a fair point. I should say that Warlock AoE can easily be better than mage AoE, but isn't necessarily so. If you have no points in Destruction warlocks certainly won't be able to play mage quite as well. Properly specced Destruction warlocks do better than mages, though. I've had the good or bad fortune to play alongside Lissa's Tahapenes for a long time, and Tahapenes has at least 31 in Destruction and outputs better damage than I do. You may not want to be a mage, but some warlocks do.

In additon, there is the huge mana cost.. 1300 mana. Can only cast that 3x maximum. I *need* to hestitate. I don't have the luxury of running aoe to test range, or spam-cast willy nilly. I have to get the timing just right, waiting for aggro, for optimum range and positioning, and if need be soul link + life tap before it... further adding and health cost to my AoE. The only standard (non talent specced) advantage is that my channeled spell isn't affected by slow cast time curses afaik.
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You only have 3900 mana?

That notwithstanding, a group with proper communication between all members can easily maneuver mobs such that all end up in the proper area. Correct positioning is not so hard with practice.

[Skandranon]

I won't go so far as to categorically state it as truth, but I think mobility in combat is always worthwhile. I'm pretty sure the cliche "stand still and die" originated in combat somewhere. :)

Yeah, but not combat with WoW mobs. That originated in battles with people against people, which is why mobility works in PvP. But WoW mobs, as I already stated, have so many abilities which seem to have as their sole purpose the negation of mobility as a useful force.

We use all the snares we have to keep them from catching the mage. The mage has blizzard and frost nova, and we'll add shammy totems for earthbind if we have them available.

That's a good point: Alliance has no equivalent to Earthbind totem, so I've never played with one around. That might change the equation somewhat. The only area snares available for the Alliance side are Improved Blizzard and Blast Wave, both of which have significant drawbacks.

Sorry, guess that part of my post wasn't clear. The zipping around enables him to bring the attack to the mobs, so we can make sure none of them escape the AoE. That's one of the biggest benefits he brings over having a warlock do AoE. No, it doesn't increase the frequency of attack.

In which case, your assertion that the mage has better "effective" AoE has another built-in assumption, that Warlock AoE will miss some targets without the ability to move around. That's just not true. If I can arrange it so that I always hit every target I want while standing perfectly still with IAE, Warlocks can do the same with Hellfire.

As a matter of fact, from my own extensive experiments with kiting AoE (I wanted it to work, I really did) I find that AoE while moving is far more likely to miss one, two, five, or more targets as they fall to the edge of your AoE envelope. This is not a problem endemic to AoE attacks.

I didn't assume that. I read your posts as saying categorically that 1) mages didn't have the best AoE damage in the game

169 DPS is greater than 208 DPS. As long as they always hit, mage damage isn't the best. Always hitting is *not * a problem, unless you're moving around.

Just as I'm coming from the position that AoE cannot be done while moving, you're coming from the position that it has to be done while moving. AoE missing targets is a large factor in your experience - but it doesn't have to be. Mage mobility solves a problem that mage mobility causes.

I'm attempting to disagree civilly and specifically. I've inferred a lot of "it won't work, don't bother" from your responses, but no "I've tried that, and here's why I don't like it".

Well, I'd never have made the arguments as to why it won't work without trying them out myself and finding that they didn't work. The problem with mobs is their long reach: I've been AoE kiting in Hillsbrad quite a lot, because you need to AoE guard rushes and you can't stand still or a hunter will pick you off. So I do move around and pop AEs.

My constant experience is that if a mob is too far away to hit me, it's also too far away to get hit by my AE. Mobs have an effective melee reach of up to ten yards - running just doesn't do it. I've been generous and been assuming that with another mage tossing Blizzards and perhaps with use of Blast Wave that it's even possible to hit them, but even that doesn't accord well with my experiences.

I suspect that a great deal of your "AoE kiting" is that the mage kites and hits about half of them with the AE, kiting and avoiding the hits from the rest, but also not hitting them. The assertion that the mage can hit them all and yet remain distant and unhurt I find simply unbelievable, because I've never been able to pull it off. I don't claim to be exceptionally skilled, but I do know that I'm not bad or ordinary.

I just happen to play with a mage that plays all-out for aggro, and we've learned as a group to make that work for us. Rereading your guide, for instance, you write about blizzard as a closer skill to ensure you don't get aggro. My buddy, OTOH, opens with blizzard because he wants the aggro -- he wants all the mobs clustered, chilled, and coming towards him. It's part of his different style.

The thing I object to about the tactic is that, even given all the tools to make it work, it's inefficient and disaster-prone. Yes, you're maximizing the mage's AoE output (it's questionable, but I'll give it to you). At the same time you're degrading everyone else's damage. Everyone else's stationary AEs are only having effect every now and then, and the poor melee-range fighters are having to run around chasing the mobs left and right. It seems like a mage-centric strategy at the expense of the team. In such a situation, okay, the mage will be putting out the most damage, but that's not necessarily meaningful.

And moving around - running - is one of the largest complicating factors anyone can throw into a situation. My philosophy is: things go wrong. The best way to avoid wipes is to minimize the chances for something to go wrong, which means a mostly static battlefield and heavy use of CC. Running around, forcing at least half the party to chase after you, and flinging spells around with wild abandon, to me, constitutes a massive multiplication of opportunities for something to go wrong.

Runners are hard enough to catch under normal circumstances; in the chaotic circumstances of a running AoE engagement, it's so easy to miss one or two. An alert party can miss runners even when the AoE isn't moving. And that's not the least of it: in Strat and DM you can pop boxes/pods, and in every instance in the world you run the risk of drawing patrols and other groups. I don't doubt that your team has found a way to make it work for you, but I also have no metric as to how frequently you run into problems, and I suspect you may have little metric as to how frequently teams who don't engage in that tactic have problems.

Bottom line: stationary AoE is easier to pull off, is just as effective, and is almost certainly friendlier on teammates. Warlocks engaging in this type of tactic will almost certainly outdamage mages. Mages may have access to a different kind of tactic, but it's certainly not easy to agree that it's better.

[vor_lord]

One of them will be interrupted.  The other won't.  Two warlocks is actually even more effective since the first warlock will be the only one taking damage, getting interrupted and burning mana; all the others get to AoE free.

So two unassisted warlocks > one unassisted mage because one of the warlocks, while unable to get most of his damage off, will allow the other to cast. Ok <_< I'd venture that two unassisted mages > two unassisted warlocks, and mage + warlock is better yet -- let the mage start first, then both are uninterruptable and the full AoE DPS of the warlock is applied.

No.&nbsp; What I'm saying is that the max potential DPS of Warlock AoE is greater than the max potential DPS of mage AoE.

Not in dispute.

Well, if you won't be convinced by arguments and still won't change your mind, I don't know what else I can say.&nbsp;

That is not a fair statement to make. I can always be convinced by arguments, just haven't been by the ones you've made so far on one particular point. The only point we disagree on is that I think that because mage AoE is easier to apply, it is "better", even though the potential DPS output is less. That's a pretty fuzzy line. When you consider this distinction in the context of the endgame, there will probably always be a way to avoid the interruption problem in larger groups, and then warlock AoE (assuming properly specced) is better. I'm not sure what to make of the kiting AoE dance of death mage -- that sounds like a good way to live on the edge of a wipe at all times.

All I'll add is that it's difficult to understand the problems until you've played a mage extensively at endgame.

It seems your main complaint is that even with this difference of our weighting aside, the utility of the warlock makes the warlock a better choice than a mage in most cases, especially in the end game. I will not disagree with that. Essentially I'm arguing for utility in our above disagreement over which AoE is better ;)

On this I will acquiesce to your greater experience. After all, I made your guide required reading for our budding mage :)

[Skandranon]

I certainly don't think a class needs to be the best at something to be desired in groups.
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This assumption is correct up through BRD, and in 5-mans of Strat, Scholo, LBRS. In UBRS and raids of the three previously mentioned instances, all classes distill down to the one or two things they do well. Mages are sheepbots and little more.

And getting back to the original line of thinking: Destruction specced warlocks can fill every role a mage does and more. That's an issue deserving of consideration.

[Skandranon]

I'd venture that two unassisted mages > two unassisted warlocks, and mage + warlock is better yet -- let the mage start first, then both are uninterruptable and the full AoE DPS of the warlock is applied

None of these facts are in dispute. However, two warlocks assisted by Concentration Aura > 2 mages assisted by Concentration Aura. And after you get the first caster going, all AoE casters after him get a free ride, so you gain more by adding additional warlocks, not more mages. If you don't have Concentration, you might have use for one mage, but no more.

The only point we disagree on is that I think that because mage AoE is easier to apply, it is "better", even though the potential DPS output is less.&nbsp; That's a pretty fuzzy line.

I suppose it can look that way. In my experience, once one has learned how to AoE and you're coordinated with the group puller, mage AoE doesn't become any easier to apply. And especially in a raid, the fact that mages are the only ones with moving AoEs doesn't change anything, since if you want the entire raid's AoE on one target area, you *have* to hold still since everyone else's AoE doesn't move.

The only trick I use with moving AoE is in cases where there are mixed pulls of elites and non-elites, like the two dwarf + two dog pulls in BRD. In that case, I let the tank take aggro on the elite initially, then move forward and hit AE just once to take the aggro from the nonelites but not from the tanked elite. Then I back up to a safe area and AE the nonelites. But the point of this tactic is to avoid getting the elite's aggro, and the only reason I do that is because I don't have the damage to kill the elite fast enough. When I move when applying AE, it's to make sure I don't break CC or don't hit an elite that I don't want the aggro from: it's a compensation for the fact that I don't have enough damage. Moving AE is the freedom to not hit things, but I'd rather hit them all for bigger damage.