The Double-Dip Mentality

[Occhidiangela]

As a personal aside, and while I do not remember who it was that published the list, God bless Larry Flint. No man is more responsable for making me laugh like a maniacal madman than Flynt and his wacky antics.
[right][snapback]100118[/snapback][/right]

Too bad he had to use a gash magazine to get on stage. :P Whatever gets ones foot in the door, eh? Perhaps the ends justifies the means of becoming a voice in the public harangue, if you want it badly enough.

Occhi

[Doc]

Too bad he had to use a gash magazine to get on stage.  :P  Whatever gets ones foot in the door, eh?  Perhaps the ends justifies the means of becoming a voice in the public harangue, if you want it badly enough. 

Occhi
[right][snapback]100124[/snapback][/right]

Don't get me wrong, I can't stand him. I hate him. Really, truly don't like him at all. But I admire him, respect him, and would gladly stand beside him for what he does to promote free speech. I don't agree with a lot that he has to say, but he has a right to say it.

I find him to be completely and utterly repulsive, the worst kind of scum, but I think he is a real laugh riot.

But I did like the movie they made about him with Woody and Courtney. It was very sad.

[Fragbait]

Hi,

It might be fine to make a single backup things you bought for loss prevention

You can, by my logic, make an infinite amount of backups.

You may not let friends of yours use these backups temporarily

It's perfectly ok to do that, in my opinion. I see the difficulties in getting the things back in time, but there's nothing that speaks against lending your friend a cd for a short time, when you want to listen to that exact album at the same time.

You may not gain profit from the usage of your backups by others

We agree here.

You may utilize some authorized conversion agency(record store) to obtain a legal conversion from one format to another

No. In my perfect illusion, you can convert your commodities whenever you like in whatever format you wish. You don't need to go to a 'conversion agency'-cum-nanny. You also don't buy exactly only the software - you buy the software on one specific medium (mostly the cd for music). And if you find out that you need another medium, that's perfectly right for me. Furthermore don't tell me you think that one should buy one cd for the car, one for your home, one for work and one for your cottage. I don't think so, really.



Greetings, Fragbait

[Doc]

WHOOPS!

The people hunting pirates just committed piracy.

Oopsy-doodle!

[Doc]

If Pete wasn't ignoring me, and could see this, I wonder what his take would be. I'd like to see his verbal wrangling to defend this somehow considering his stance on piracy.

Would be interesting to say the least.

[Occhidiangela]

If Pete wasn't ignoring me, and could see this, I wonder what his take would be. I'd like to see his verbal wrangling to defend this somehow considering his stance on piracy.

Would be interesting to say the least.
[right][snapback]100132[/snapback][/right]

Look like you'll just have to keep wondering.

Occhi

[Artega]

I think it's cute  :D

For the record, people in my corner of the globe call carbonated beverages "pop".
[right][snapback]99977[/snapback][/right]

They do here, too. I just refuse to conform to their standards :)

[whyBish]

They sign willingly because they know that if they don't, they will never have the kind of success that the big companies can provide them with.  However, in doing so they frequently sign contracts giving away far more of their rights than they should (this is not only true with musicians, but they are one of the most common groups targeted in this way).
gekko
[right][snapback]100107[/snapback][/right]

"more rights than they should"? 'Should' according to who? If they willingly sign up, to get access to the valueable services of big companies, knowing the rights they give up in exchange, then why is there a 'should' at all? They have made their decision on the value of such rights in signing the contract.

[Fragbait]

In the music industry though, there is usually a person like Brittany Spears who does earn much more than her team mates because without her there is no product period.
[right][snapback]100112[/snapback][/right]

Hi,

Seems like you finally got convinced. Woohoo!

Also note that even today not all musical 'acts' are artificial mass-tuned products like the product Britney, or Backstreet Boys. While the pre-selecting of group members and the image implanting definitely is on the rise, there are certain groups / artists that don't fit into that scheme. Some rappers and many a rock group, and also musicians of the electronic music branch spring to mind. And to be sure: these artists don't get one-tenth of a percent more than 'artificial'* groups, in spite of no (or less) image consultants and less promotion agents working for them. And don't be blue-eyed, while there may be many people working on a product like Britney, the major hump of money still get the bosses of the label. (I don't say that that's a bad thing - if you're the boss!)

*: Whereas artificial is arguable, too. If you fire your guitarist because he's on dope all the time, which compromises his performance and the image of the band as such, ain't that, you know, artificial?


Greetings, Fragbait

[kandrathe]

Seems like you finally got convinced. Woohoo!
...
[right][snapback]100185[/snapback][/right]

Of what? Don't read too much into it.

What I am convinced of it that our society is way out of whack with values and compensation. Just ask yourself who should be better compensated, the latest group of musicians promoting gun violence, whoring, demeaning and degrading women, and chemical excess? Or, teachers, brain surgeons, engineers, or even Joe line worker at the Ford plant?

Our society puts too much value on entertainment in all its forms. That is TV, movies, sports, and even video games.

Postman sees television's entertainment value as a "soma" for the contemporary world, and he sees contemporary mankind surrendering its rights in exchange for entertainment. Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (1985), by Neil Postman

In essence what I believe about media and news in particular is described best by the following;

As a result, with its powerful visual appeal in the broadcast media, the tsunami that killed 150,000 has been enormous news for weeks, yet  the fact that 4,500,000 children every year from obsolete diseases due to lack of access to inexpensive medicines that could prevent and treat them, has received almost no attention in the broadcast media. And the media were likewise unable to galvanize any action in response to the known threat of genocide in Rwanda in 1994, which killed five times as many as the recent tsunami, nor has it yet galvanized action in the current ominously similar situation, which will yield almost inevitably similar results in Darfur. These dramas built up to crisis too slowly, and were far too subtle and complex to capture in thirty-second 'stories' and quick photo collages. The atrocities at Abu Ghraib only became news when photos were smuggled out, and it was the photos -- the media coverage of the atrocities, not the atrocities themselves or their complicated, inexplicable cause -- that were 'news'. how to save the world --  blog by Dave Pollard 1-10-2005

Do I think Brittany Spears deserves her wealth and fame? No. On two levels, her talents are common and mediocre, and she is a packaged product of pop pablum. When you look at the music industry or the movie industry, you might believe that the most talented people rise to the top. It ain't so. It's usually the ones who have some talent, are "discovered", and are willing to sell their souls for wealth and fame.

I do not weep at all with the prospect of the RIAA, or Music Industry crashing and burning, or thousands of the labeled artists being de-emphasized to indie status where *real* talent and hard work make the difference. But, I'm not so blinded by disdain for Hollywood, or the Music Industry that I would condone piracy in hastening their demise. The Indies will need enforceable copyright laws to protect their ability to get just recompense for their efforts to be able remain in the industry at all.

[kandrathe]

Hi,
You can, by my logic, make an infinite amount of backups.
It's perfectly ok to do that, in my opinion. I see the difficulties in getting the things back in time, but there's nothing that speaks against lending your friend a cd for a short time, when you want to listen to that exact album at the same time.
We agree here.
No. In my perfect illusion, you can convert your commodities whenever you like in whatever format you wish. You don't need to go to a 'conversion agency'-cum-nanny. You also don't buy exactly only the software - you buy the software on one specific medium (mostly the cd for music). And if you find out that you need another medium, that's perfectly right for me. Furthermore don't tell me you think that one should buy one cd for the car, one for your home, one for work and one for your cottage. I don't think so, really.
Greetings, Fragbait
[right][snapback]100130[/snapback][/right]

Your logic is wrong. You misread (and largely ignored) my post. An infinite number of backups are not backups, they are just copies. One copy for backup purposes is a backup, if it is archived for loss prevention.

You can lend, give, or sell your original property to a friend, but not a copy (or backup copy).

As for transfering mediums. In the perfect world people would be honest, but in the real world there needs to be controls and enforceability of laws. What I believe about the way it should be is that the contract we enter into with the Artist for a product should be for the virtual album not just the cheap piece of plastic with a recording on it. That way, if I had purchased the original Pet Sounds album in 1964, then I should have the right to listen to it in any subsequent media format. The vinyl disc was the technology of that day, but as technology advanced my ability to replay my album would not be diminished. The sad reality is that you really only own the piece of plastic with a recording on it, and when the format changes or it wears out you must replace it with another piece of plastic.

[gekko]

As for transfering mediums.  In the perfect world people would be honest, but in the real world there needs to be controls and enforceability of laws. 
[right][snapback]100192[/snapback][/right]

Apple computers uses neither copyright protection nor online assurances that copies of iLife and iWork (their two primary software bundles) are not being installed on multiple computers. And yet iWork has recently passed Corel into the #2 spot for retail sales of word processors in the US.

People are going to steal music, they are going to steal programs, they are going to steal money. I personally would be inclined to buy far more music and programs than I do (I get by just fine without any CD put out by SONY) if the company did not treat me like a thief for purchasing their product.

gekko

[kandrathe]

Apple computers uses neither copyright protection nor online assurances that copies of iLife and iWork (their two primary software bundles) are not being installed on multiple computers.  And yet iWork has recently passed Corel into the #2 spot for retail sales of word processors in the US.

People are going to steal music, they are going to steal programs, they are going to steal money.  I personally would be inclined to buy far more music and programs than I do (I get by just fine without any CD put out by SONY) if the company did not treat me like a thief for purchasing their product.

gekko
[right][snapback]100194[/snapback][/right]

When I worked in the packaged software market our company philosophy was that a simple copy protection scheme was adequate, since dedicated crackers would eventually figure it out. What we tried to prevent was the average user from easily making a copy. We also had a policy of shipping the software with a backup, and a free disk replacement policy if the software wore out or the disk was damaged.

Do you leave your money on your front door step, do you put it in your sock drawer, or do you put it in a bank vault?

[Fragbait]

Hi,

For reasons I don't understand, Firefox refuses to show my latest replies to this thread. Only by searching for my name can I read your answers, Kandrathe.
Anyway:

Your logic is wrong. You misread (and largely ignored) my post. An infinite number of backups are not backups, they are just copies. One copy for backup purposes is a backup, if it is archived for loss prevention.

You can lend, give, or sell your original property to a friend, but not a copy (or backup copy).

As for transfering mediums. In the perfect world people would be honest, but in the real world there needs to be controls and enforceability of laws. What I believe about the way it should be is that the contract we enter into with the Artist for a product should be for the virtual album not just the cheap piece of plastic with a recording on it. That way, if I had purchased the original Pet Sounds album in 1964, then I should have the right to listen to it in any subsequent media format. The vinyl disc was the technology of that day, but as technology advanced my ability to replay my album would not be diminished. The sad reality is that you really only own the piece of plastic with a recording on it, and when the format changes or it wears out you must replace it with another piece of plastic.

Backups are backups, no matter how many there are. Only when used do they become what you call 'copies'. However, they have been copies all the time, it's just a definition. You copied something. But because you did this to back something up, they are backups. Example? Emergency shutdown systems are often back-upped on every pc of the chain. Not just once. Another example? The Mountain heli rescue has more than one backup heli, for sure. 'Nuff said.

As I said, my statements were meant the way that they represented my imagination. And in my imagination, I can lend my friend whatever the heck I want for sometime, even backups. As long as I don't give them to him permanently, and he doesn't copy them, that's just fine, and no theft or whatsoever.

I agree that it would be perfect to buy the right to use the music (or media) in whatever way you like instead of a 'cd'. But sadly, and back to the original topic, the other way round, they can make a hell of a lot more money.

Greetings, Fragbait

[kandrathe]

...
Backups are backups, no matter how many there are. Only when used do they become what you call 'copies'. However, they have been copies all the time, it's just a definition. You copied something. But because you did this to back something up, they are backups. Example? Emergency shutdown systems are often back-upped on every pc of the chain. Not just once. Another example? The Mountain heli rescue has more than one backup heli, for sure. 'Nuff said.
[right][snapback]100232[/snapback][/right]

You don't lend your Emergency Shutdown system to a friend to see if he likes it. You don't lend your backup helicopters to friends for weekend skiing trips. The backup has a purpose as an insurance policy. Making multiple backups only makes sense when the risk or consequences of failure are high. With the internet and advent of electronic distribution, backups are unneccesary, in fact, I often return to my original purchase software sites for updates or re-download if I lose the original installation .exe. If only online music were as handy.

As I said, my statements were meant the way that they represented my imagination. And in my imagination, I can lend my friend whatever the heck I want for sometime, even backups. As long as I don't give them to him permanently, and he doesn't copy them, that's just fine, and no theft or whatsoever.
...
[right][snapback]100232[/snapback][/right]

In my imagination the world is fair, and people are honest. In my imagination hard work is rewarded, taxes are low, and most any famous person would be a good role model for children. I imagine a world where religions who preach love are not a source of hate and destruction, people are tolerant and work out their differences instead of blowing each other up suicidally. I imagine a world where teachers, engineers, and scientists are the most famous people, politics is a citizens duty and entertainment is a past time.

So in my imagination, you are violating copyright laws and are in big trouble for all those shared "backups" your friends are using.

[Occhidiangela]

In my imagination the world is fair, and people are honest.  In my imagination hard work is rewarded, taxes are low, and most any famous person would be a good role model for children.  I imagine a world where religions who preach love are not a source of hate and destruction, people are tolerant and work out their differences instead of blowing each other up suicidally.  I imagine a world where teachers, engineers, and scientists are the most famous people, politics is a citizens duty and entertainment is a past time.
[right][snapback]100253[/snapback][/right]

I'd like some of those mushrooms on my pizza. :whistling: Order six billion servings.

Occhi

[Artega]

In my imagination, people actually use condoms so that they don't have two kids with a third on the way before they're 20.

[whyBish]

What I am convinced of it that our society is way out of whack with values and compensation.  Just ask yourself who should be better compensated, the latest group of musicians promoting gun violence, whoring, demeaning and degrading women, and chemical excess?  Or, teachers, brain surgeons, engineers, or even Joe line worker at the Ford plant? 
[right][snapback]100187[/snapback][/right]

Yes, we should lobby the govt. to set up a commission that determines the appropriate pay rates for the various endeavours. :mellow:

[gekko]

--double post--

[gekko]

For those using threaded view: I'm replying here merely as an alternative to starting a new thread. My reply is not aimed directly at anyone. I just found this article which made me a little bug-eyed.

Link. Only important points: 7 people plead guilty to copying Star Wars Episode III before its release. They now "face a maximum penalty of a $100,000 (£56,000) fine and one year in jail when sentenced. $100,000? Is that just slightly ridiculous to anyone else? Why are the penalties for illegal copy so much worse than the penalties for phsically stealing a movie? Those numbers are just plain obscene. There is no reason for such ridiculous punishments.

"Revenge of the Sith went on to take $848.5m (£474.6m) at the global box office."

gekko