Blizzard announces WOW faction-class crossovers

[Lissa]

Because they have frosaken the light (or feel they were forsaken by the light). It's part of the reason for the name.

If that were true, why can they be holy priests?

[oldmandennis]

It also lets them cut out half of their in-house raid play-testing.

I LOLed. 1/2 of nothing is nothing.

[Monkey]

If that were true, why can they be holy priests?

Your question reminds me of this Penny-Arcade:
http://www2.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/02/07

[Artega]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...&tmp=1#blizzard

I don't know what to think about that. If it's true... Wow... just wow.

edit: link got changed, should work now.

Blizzard rakes in uncounted millions (billions?) of USD every year off of WoW alone, yet they take the easy way out.

Guess Rob Pardo decided he needed a new Ferrari.

Anyway, I detest this idea. It robs all semblance of uniqueness in gameplay from the two factions, beyond minor things like racial abilities and racial spells for classes that have them.

Just one more stake in the coffin for WoW, and another reason I'm going to be watching the upcoming Warhammer MMOG closely.

[Kevin]

If that were true, why can they be holy priests?

The Light != Holy. At least that is how I always figured it. Blood Elves had priests too but even by the bad lore they had to capture something to get the power of The Light.

The Light may manifest it's powers as holy based but it isn't the same thing.


Edit: Or at least that explanation is as good as the rest of the Blizzard lore now.

[Warlock]

Looks like Bliz was so pleased with the response to Magic Demon Space Paladins that they're doing it again.

Shaman I can more or less accept as a class option for the Dranei, though I'm still not keen on the race or backstory.

Blood Elf Paladins by stealing the power of the Light? That crashing sound you can hear is my immersion having a train wreck. If Bliz HAS to give every faction access to every class (bleh) there are better choices than BE's.

[JustAGuy]

I find it interesting that so many people don't know how to play their classes properly in the first place. That statement applies across the board, but especially for Shaman and Paladin.

A lot of Shaman in particular, don't know what they're doing most of the time. The good Shaman players are usually guilded and actively raiding. Same situation for Paladins I would assume, but I stopped playing mine ages ago. If you're on the horde, and you join a pick up group for a UBRS or something, watch the Shaman. If he's unguilded, it's likely he's a noob.

There are only so many good players on any given server. My guild is really feeling that truth because we lost a few key people over time and have been unable to replace them with new recruits. In the expansion, recruiting a few noob Paladins just because we need to fill raid spots with Paladins wont help the raid if they need to l2p.

So the alternative is to have some of our knowledgable players re-roll Paladin. Personally, I've been wanting to get my Human Paladin in a raid, but I can't really leave my Hordies behind, especially considering how much work I've put into the guild and the toon. Considering I'm the Shaman class leader, I doubt I'll get a chance to re-roll. It would inappropriate anyway; my full tier 2 Shaman would greatly outperform any noob blue Paladin that would be the alternative.

This introduction of Horde Paladins and Alliance Shaman really further reduces the amount of good players per class. We have one more class, but the amount of good players remains the same. This might not be a problem for some guilds, but others, it likely will.

[Concillian]

There are only so many good players on any given server. My guild is really feeling that truth because we lost a few key people over time and have been unable to replace them with new recruits. In the expansion, recruiting a few noob Paladins just because we need to fill raid spots with Paladins wont help the raid if they need to l2p.

Teach them.

I can think of a couple examples of players I played with that were horrible, wipe the group / raid if they're there kind of bad, players who have improved to the point of being solid and contributing members.

It's not the ideal option, but some players can actually l2p... if they have some guidance. The solo game is very different from the raiding game, especially so for certain classes.

There are still some real winners out there who are beyond help, but I think they're more the exception than the rule.

[Monkey]

Blood Elf Paladins by stealing the power of the Light? That crashing sound you can hear is my immersion having a train wreck. If Bliz HAS to give every faction access to every class (bleh) there are better choices than BE's.

YA RLY.

Better choices include the Forsaken (discussed earlier in this thread) and....Orcs! Why Orcs, you might say? Well, at least one famous paladin sees honor among the orcs: http://www.wowwiki.com/Tirion_Fordring

Realizing that the orc had saved him, Tirion set out and retraced his steps back to the tower. The orc, Eitrigg, told Tirion that before the coming to Azeroth, the orcs had been a noble society rooted in shamanism. After the war, he had left the corrupt Horde. Tirion, seeing great honour in Eitrigg, promised to keep his existence a secret, returning to his people and informing them that the orc had been dealt with and was not a threat.

Tirion goes on to not only bust Eitrigg out of an alliance prison but also heal the orc with the powers blessed by the light when things go sour. Maybe Thrall asked Eitrigg to go find Tirion and bring back knowledge of the light. Eitrigg's a believer because the light saved him in his darkest hour, and Tirion (now running the Brotherhood of Light to combat the Scourge) needs more honorable paladins to aid his cause, so he teaches Eitrigg in the Way of the Light and sends him to teach others.

You know, it kind of ticks me off when I can spend 5 minutes on WoWwiki and find a piece of lore that smoothly integrates things. Feels like Blizzard's not even trying.

[MongoJerry]

Hehe now we will complain that most raiding shamans will be pressured to roll paladins :P

Judging from the number of people in The Core eagerly signing up to become paladins in the expansion, that's not going to be a problem. Interestingly, it's not all healer classes wanting to do it. A couple of rogues want to switch to paladins -- and very badly.

The Horde might lose a priest slot in the expansion, because paladins can take over dispelling duties, but I think it'll mostly be shaman who lose slots, unless the whole totem system gets reworked. Despite claims to the contrary, shaman aren't as good of healers as priests either in healing power or mana generation and efficiency. Plus, many incredibly powerful spells like Prayer of Healing and PW:Shield are grossly underrated by non-priests. A priest who only Flash Heals is a complete noob. Besides, all those new Alliance players who thought how great Shaman are will find out that the only decent shaman build is 30/21 elemental/restoration (or the equivalent level 70 version). They'll have fun pew-pew'ing in battlegrounds, but in raids, they'll be even more gimped compared to holy priests than they would be if they were full resto.

I think the new raid healing setup will end up being:

5 Priests
4 Paladins
3 Shaman
3 Druids

Unless something massive happens to class roles and abilities.

[Porcupine]

A couple of rogues want to switch to paladins -- and very badly.

I think the new raid healing setup will end up being:

5 Priests
4 Paladins
3 Shaman
3 Druids

Delurking...

Your rogues want to switch to paladins for the same reason mages might want to switch to shamans -- and very badly.

5 priests, 5 druids, some mixture of 5-6 shamans/pallies.

Your crusade over the supposed faction imbalance has blinded you to a few simple truths.

Most notably, paladins aren't very good healers. This is something that horde never really seem to grasp. This is probably because of pvp healadins, who are admittedly quite sexy, but not because of their raw healing power. In a raid paladin survivability is wasted, much like shaman dps. The overstated paladin advantage over shamans does not translate to paladins replacing shamans AND druids. They just don't have the healing output. Three pallies are perfectly capable of applying all the blessings a raid wants without sacrificing the benefits of the two unquestionably superior healing classes.

[MongoJerry]

Delurking...

Your rogues want to switch to paladins for the same reason mages might want to switch to shamans -- and very badly.

5 priests, 5 druids, some mixture of 5-6 shamans/pallies.

Your crusade over the supposed faction imbalance has blinded you to a few simple truths.

Most notably, paladins aren't very good healers. This is something that horde never really seem to grasp. This is probably because of pvp healadins, who are admittedly quite sexy, but not because of their raw healing power. In a raid paladin survivability is wasted, much like shaman dps. The overstated paladin advantage over shamans does not translate to paladins replacing shamans AND druids. They just don't have the healing output. Three pallies are perfectly capable of applying all the blessings a raid wants without sacrificing the benefits of the two unquestionably superior healing classes.

Paladins have excellent mana efficiency. Their healing, though, will need to be directed properly to take advantage of their healing abilities. A raid of 16 paladins would not make a good healing team, but having BoL on tanks while paladins spam FoL on them basically mana free will allow them to heal very well while at the same time freeing other classes to heal non-tanks, which they can do better than paladins.

For the record, The Core's raid leaders have tentatively decided on this general purpose healing raid makeup for the expansion:

5 Priests
4 Paladins
4 Shaman
3 druids

And in general, "In the expansion, our ideal raid makeup will probably shift to around 3-4 shm, 3-5 pals, 3-4 druids, and 5-6 priests."

Currently, our raids are typically 6-7 priests, 6 shaman, and 3-4 druids.

[Lissa]

The Light != Holy. At least that is how I always figured it. Blood Elves had priests too but even by the bad lore they had to capture something to get the power of The Light.

The Light may manifest it's powers as holy based but it isn't the same thing.
Edit: Or at least that explanation is as good as the rest of the Blizzard lore now.

The problem is GG, most people take the stand that you do, that the freed undead are no longer part of the light, but the real reason they took the name Forsaken, as based on the lore, is because everyone initially wanted to kill them. The Scourge wanted them dead because they weren't under the control of the Lich King anymore and their friends and family believed them to still be under the control of the Lich King and something to be destroyed.

If they were truly forsaken by the Light, they wouldn't have Priests.

I did finally find an answer as to why no Paladins became Undead, and it makes sense. Paladins are immune to the Scourge Plague, thus no Paladins fell to the scourge plague and thus no Undead Paladins exist because of it.

[Porcupine]

Methinks actual game experience will make them reevaluate that mix. No raid I've ever been in has lamented having only 3 pallies as long as there were priests and druids to take those spots. In fact, having only two pallies just meant having to make decisions on blessings: one for might or wisdom, one for kings or salvation.

Why have four pallies spamming FOL when one pally and one greater heal specced priest accomplish the same thing? Much is said of paladin's efficiency, but that advantage becomes moot with gear: I don't think many shamans will complain about mana when they're sporting Earthshatter.

Really, the thing that drains healer mana much more than any mob is that hideous invention, the Emergency Monitor. And lord knows, no one abuses it more than FOL spamming paladins. You will learn this :P

[Malakar]

There are still some real winners out there who are beyond help, but I think they're more the exception than the rule.

Your confidence in humanity is frightening.:D

Joking aside, I agree that there are a good amount of people that can learn how to play a certain way, but simply have no motivation to experiment/research how to do it on their own.

[Malakar]

Wait, I just realized this will later be used as a tool to help balance factions, because it will allow for significantly simpler cross faction transfers (alliance --> horde and vice versa)

If they did allow this, I think we'd see the Alliance Warlock population take a major hit and transfer to undead.

That being said, I support the ability to change decisions made at the beginning of the game. Requiring noobs to make permanent decisions in a game that's about time investment is a big mistake.

Not only would racial changes be nice, but name/sex changes would be nice, too. I might actually feel like getting some gear on my Human Male mage if he were female and wouldn't look like a clown.

[MongoJerry]

Really, the thing that drains healer mana much more than any mob is that hideous invention, the Emergency Monitor. And lord knows, no one abuses it more than FOL spamming paladins. You will learn this :P

That's so funny. Is this whole "Emergency Monitor" facination a recent invention? It was only two weeks ago that the a discussion of it came up -- and it came up when one of our guild's rogues was bringing up his priest alt and said that he used EM to help heal. The response of all our healers was, "What the hell is Emergency Monitor?" Ever since then, I've seen so many references to it, with most people decrying its use. Is this something that people have been using for a long time? I turned it on recently to see what it's like. Seems OK, but maybe only as a fourth option after my MT's, party, and the warriors, mages, and rogues are taken care of, I might throw a flash or something on people who are low on the EM.

Even without having raided with paladins, I can say that if paladins are FoL'ing anyone without BoL, they should be shot.

[Porcupine]

That's so funny. Is this whole "Emergency Monitor" facination a recent invention? It was only two weeks ago that the a discussion of it came up -- and it came up when one of our guild's rogues was bringing up his priest alt and said that he used EM to help heal. The response of all our healers was, "What the hell is Emergency Monitor?" Ever since then, I've seen so many references to it, with most people decrying its use. Is this something that people have been using for a long time? I turned it on recently to see what it's like. Seems OK, but maybe only as a fourth option after my MT's, party, and the warriors, mages, and rogues are taken care of, I might throw a flash or something on people who are low on the EM.

Even without having raided with paladins, I can say that if paladins are FoL'ing anyone without BoL, they should be shot.

haha...*chuckle*...BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh sheltered child...so blissfully unaware. Let me educate you my son.

Ever wondered how a two hander wielding 31 ret specced "I dps first and heal second in pvp" meleeadin tops healing meters for an entire 40 man instance? Probably not, what with being horde and all.

Emergency Monitor.

Ever seen a mage take 1500 points of damage and receive 15,000 points of healing as a result? You can bet somebody's healers were paying attention to their...

Emergency Monitor.

Ever wound up a 2.5 second Gheal on a party member who just took a little damage only to watch their life bar shoot up to full at the 1.5 second mark?

You know what I'm getting at.

Sure Mongo, you looked at EM and decided it was more a less a toy. Others (oh, so many others) use it like they never figured out the difference between a lifetapping warlock and a main tank. I'd venture to say that had your guild's healers discovered the wretched thing in their formative raiding days it would have seriously affected your end game progress.

[oldmandennis]

I don't know, I use EM alot. It's a tool, and it helps in situations. It's certainly no worse then damage meters. Some fights I just use it, some fights I just heal assigned tanks, some fights I configure EM to show only classes/groups I'm interested in.

It was handy for Dr. Weivle tonight.

[Zarathustra]

"LOL, Lore!"

Indeed.

Anyone care to explain how Blood Elves, suckling at the teat of demonic energies, are going to be Paladins?


*ahem*

Lore issues aside, I think we can all see this for what it is. Blizzard has given up faction balance and will be making the two sides more or less even on every encounter. No more Horde/Alliance advantage on X boss. It makes me wonder whether they plan to further homogenize things.

I also expect 90% of the Draenei created to be shaman.