FIrst official 3.1 preview

[LochnarITB]

Mage

* Improved Water Elemental – this talent has been removed and replaced with a new talent that grants Replenishment (similar to Shadow priests).

Thank you, sir, may I have another? Nerf deep frost mages because we are so overpowered now. :angry:

[NiteFox]

Hunter

* Consumable ammunition has been removed from the game. Arrows and bullets no longer stack, but are not consumed. Ranged attack speed bonus gained from quivers and ammo bags will be preserved in a different capacity.

I'm thinking (or at least hoping) that they add a second "relic" slot to the Hunter paperdoll (Or even for Warriors and Rogues, I don't begrudge them getting a little ranged haste, *Snicker*) and make the existing ammo pouches and quivers fill in these slots. Each container "relic" will offer the equivalent ranged haste rating.

This is the basic idea. Clearly, it would need more work: Ranged haste on quivers (I'll just use that term from here on out) caps out with the PvP quivers bought with Honor and AV marks (Harpy Hide and Gnoll Skin, +15%) with the only difference between the following quivers being bag size.

The only difference between the +15% PvP quivers and the top-level Leatherworking quivers is 12 slots and a level difference of 20. Perhaps some Hunter-only bonuses should apply, random procs and the like.

For what it's worth, Leatherworkers can craft eleven quivers, and are the only source of the highest-level quivers for both ammo types (Dragonscale Ammo Pouch and Nerubian Reinforced Quiver, 28 slots, +15% HR). It's fair to say that selling quivers was a profitable pastime for Leatherworkers (Almost as profitable as selling Riding Crops in TBC. Still bitter about that half-assed change).

To be honest, it would be a huge boon to Leatherworkers if they made it only so that crafted quivers confer specific bonuses. Still, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard just removes the quiver patterns and leave Leatherworkers with nothing but a significant hole in our bank accounts to show for it.

[Rinnhart]

Paladin

* Blessing of Kings – this spell is now a base ability trainable by all paladins.
* Exorcism – this spell now causes damage to all types of enemy targets. However, it always critical strikes undead or demon targets. This change should make sure paladin damage doesn't drop when going from Naxxramas to later tiers of content.
* Shield of the Templar now causes your Avenger's Shield and Shield of the Righteousness to silence targets for 3 sec. The old damage bonus of this talent has been folded into Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield, and Shield of the Righteousness.
* Ardent Defender, Improved Hammer of Justice, One-Handed Weapon Specialization and more have had their ranks reduced.
* Guarded by the Light – no longer reduces the mana cost of shield spells, but now has a 50/100% chance to refresh Divine Plea duration.
* Judgements of the Just – now also reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Justice by 10/20 seconds and increases the duration of the Seal of Justice stun effect by 0.5/1 second.

* Blessing of Kings - this spell is now a base ability trainable by all paladins

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the rapture. For when we log in, we shall be taken up into paradise, and delivered unto the bosom of the Lord. And He shalt nerf the SA and BoS (and possibly retribution DPS) TO THE GROUND.

[Tal]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the rapture. For when we log in, we shall be taken up into paradise, and delivered unto the bosom of the Lord. And He shalt nerf the SA and BoS (and possibly retribution DPS) TO THE GROUND.

:lol:

[Kevin]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the rapture. For when we log in, we shall be taken up into paradise, and delivered unto the bosom of the Lord. And He shalt nerf the SA and BoS (and possibly retribution DPS) TO THE GROUND.

Did you notice they didn't say what that 5 point talent will be replaced with?

It also means they are designing everything with the idea that everyone has 10% more stats now. That doesn't matter too much I don't think, but that is what it means.

Of course I'm happy about the change. Feeling I had to spend 5 points no matter what spec I was, to get that talent kinda sucked. Of course the assumption that I would be the only paladin in the 10 man was incorrect nearly every time in our paladin crazy guild. But I do prepare myself to be able to tank, heal, or DPS whatever content we are working on and I've succeeded as far as Naxx and Sarth are concerned. I'm not quite up to Malygos standards for tanking yet. Of course tank gear is my 3rd set right now even though I was a jerk and took a helm that I should have let another pally have because I admit I got loot blinded. :)

[shoju]

Paladin

* Blessing of Kings – this spell is now a base ability trainable by all paladins.

Finally! I'm a Ret Paladin. I tanked for the majority of my TBC experience (Terenas Lurkers know, I went ret right before we dropped Kael in the Eye)

As a prot paladin in TBC, you were EXPECTED to have kings. After 3.0, Ret was EXPECTED to have Blessing of Kings. Now, this means that there will be a HUGE overhaul to the prot tree, but it was needed, and should free up another 5 points for ret to get some fun stuff.

I will say, with this being changed, the Prot tree is going to need some serious stuff, and it might be time for Prot to finally get a 1 point talent at the 11th talent point slot.

* Exorcism – this spell now causes damage to all types of enemy targets. However, it always critical strikes undead or demon targets. This change should make sure paladin damage doesn't drop when going from Naxxramas to later tiers of content.

Ok..... While I like this change, we are going to see lots of crying about Ret having to much damage potential now. I mean, I am in mostly crafted + badge gear with a weapon from Naxx (I don't count the chest since it can be purchased with emblems) and I'm hit capped with 3k ap and 32% crit unbuffed. Giving me another source of damage is going to be nice, and appreciated, but I have a feeling that people are going to scream about it.

* Shield of the Templar now causes your Avenger's Shield and Shield of the Righteousness to silence targets for 3 sec. The old damage bonus of this talent has been folded into Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield, and Shield of the Righteousness.

Shield bash, and a ranged shield bash on a 30 second cooldown? That will be nice. I know that the DR on silence effects will keep it from being OP in PVP, but watch out for the crying.

* Ardent Defender, Improved Hammer of Justice, One-Handed Weapon Specialization and more have had their ranks reduced.

So in having their ranks reduced are they going to lose come effectiveness? or are they just taking them from 5/3 TP to less TP and keeping the same effect?

* Guarded by the Light – no longer reduces the mana cost of shield spells, but now has a 50/100% chance to refresh Divine Plea duration.

So, if you have DP up, it has a chance to refresh it? Seems a little odd, but I guess if they are talking about this, then you should expect to see a sanctuary nerf.

* Judgements of the Just – now also reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Justice by 10/20 seconds and increases the duration of the Seal of Justice stun effect by 0.5/1 second.

meh, I don't care. HoJ was never a tool I relied on when tanking. As a paladin, you needed the mana from getting healed, that getting beat on was more important. I guess having a short CD stun might be ok, and putting it so deep in a tree will make sure ret can't abuse it in pvp.




I like the changes that they have shown so far. I'm really curious what the new prot tree is going to look like. By my esitmation, they are going to need to add 4 talents to keep the tree from being too skinny by cutting BoK and reducing the points in other talents. This would mean

2 tier 1 talents, 1 11point talent, and 1 talent down near holy shield I think.

[Lissa]

Ok..... While I like this change, we are going to see lots of crying about Ret having to much damage potential now. I mean, I am in mostly crafted + badge gear with a weapon from Naxx (I don't count the chest since it can be purchased with emblems) and I'm hit capped with 3k ap and 32% crit unbuffed. Giving me another source of damage is going to be nice, and appreciated, but I have a feeling that people are going to scream about it.

People are already screaming about Ret Damage being out of control even with the Bubble nerf. Case in point, I had a Ret Pally jump my Hunter in Wintergrasp. With full health, I was killed by said Pally 2 seconds after the HoJ stun dropped and I couldn't do a damn thing to the Paladin cause he was Bubbled at the time and there's no way for a Hunter to remove it (and he was Bubbled when he did the initial HoJ). When you can do almost 19k damage in 8 seconds when you're damage is cut in half and the target has 40% DR, there's something pretty wrong.

[Kevin]

People are already screaming about Ret Damage being out of control even with the Bubble nerf. Case in point, I had a Ret Pally jump my Hunter in Wintergrasp. With full health, I was killed by said Pally 2 seconds after the HoJ stun dropped and I couldn't do a damn thing to the Paladin cause he was Bubbled at the time and there's no way for a Hunter to remove it (and he was Bubbled when he did the initial HoJ). When you can do almost 19k damage in 8 seconds when you're damage is cut in half and the target has 40% DR, there's something pretty wrong.

You realize that 19K damage in 8s is only 2375 DPS. OK so that would be 4750 without the half damage penalty. Your 40% mit means just about nothing because most of that damage you took wasn't physical anyway. Judgement is holy, hammer of wrath is holy (and I'm sure you took one), seal of command damage is holy and in PvP I'm pretty sure the pally was using command and for you to take that much damage it had to proc, crusader strike is holy damage. So you mitigated 40% of the 2 or 3 physical swings that hit you. 5K DPS sustained for 5-10 seconds is not out of the reach of other classes either. Of course I wonder if he really was bubbled when he hammered you. Was it his bubble or was it the sacred shield effect that looks somewhat similar and in the heat of PvP can be mistaken. It doesn't make a lot of sense to bubble that early, bubbling near the end of the duration sure, but that would mean the DPS needed was even lower if even 2 sec of that time was not divine shield but sacred shield (the reactive healing spell).

Now I'm not saying it isn't a problem. The real problem with paladins in PvP has always been the bubble the stun has been an issue from time to time, but it's only a problem if they have enough burst damage. They now have enough burst damage if spec'd for it so that is a problem as well. If you can do 2-3K DPS (which many classes can) and you can stun someone for 6s then you can safely do 12,000 to 15,000 damage. Rogues have had issues like this as well, though it generally took a bit more skill to keep the opponent locked down while you killed them while helpless.

That is the frustrating thing in PvP regardless of how it happens. If any class can kill you or nearly kill you while you have no control of your toon it sucks. Fear nerfs happened because skilled warlocks could kill people in PvP while that person was completely helpless due to the fear and the DoTs ate them. As mentioned stuns got diminishing returns because rogues could do way to much to a helpless opponent. Hunter burst was nerfed because the essential one shooting of many toons, mostly to do with aimed shot + multi and mostly in the pre-TBC days. Mages had things taken away because of crazy burst combos as well. Other examples can be cited. So yeah I don't disagree with you. It's the most unfun part of PvP. Dying without a chance to do anything. Healers are really feeling it right now as well, the unfun part.

I don't think the issue is really burst damage. I think the issue is burst damage + control for rets right now. And while that pally that killed you was in a lot of trouble if anyone else with any skill attacked him (since he had no bubble, no stun, no real control options, though depending on lay on hands state he still might have had escape options) that still doesn't make it a satisfying experience. It's also hard to tell if that pally had any skill or just got lucky and that sucks too. Losing to a high skilled player who doesn't let you do much to them doesn't bother me too much.

Part of why I didn't mind TBC druids that much, they frustrated me, but it did require some skill to do what was needed to survive forever, there were plenty of resto druids that were only so-so that my hunter was able to dispatch. Not as fast as some other healers that I killed with him, but if the druid didn't have skill I could kill them.

Anyway just some ramblings on it. The bubble is still a problem and I could still live with it being removed and replaced with some other escape mechanism that wasn't quite as foolproof. I have used it a few times in PvE to save my butt, and wouldn't want any option, but not something so powerful.

[shoju]

You realize that 19K damage in 8s is only 2375 DPS. OK so that would be 4750 without the half damage penalty. Your 40% mit means just about nothing because most of that damage you took wasn't physical anyway. Judgement is holy, hammer of wrath is holy (and I'm sure you took one), seal of command damage is holy and in PvP I'm pretty sure the pally was using command and for you to take that much damage it had to proc, crusader strike is holy damage. So you mitigated 40% of the 2 or 3 physical swings that hit you. 5K DPS sustained for 5-10 seconds is not out of the reach of other classes either. Of course I wonder if he really was bubbled when he hammered you. Was it his bubble or was it the sacred shield effect that looks somewhat similar and in the heat of PvP can be mistaken. It doesn't make a lot of sense to bubble that early, bubbling near the end of the duration sure, but that would mean the DPS needed was even lower if even 2 sec of that time was not divine shield but sacred shield (the reactive healing spell).

slight nitpick. Crusader strike is physical damage.

Now I'm not saying it isn't a problem. The real problem with paladins in PvP has always been the bubble the stun has been an issue from time to time, but it's only a problem if they have enough burst damage. They now have enough burst damage if spec'd for it so that is a problem as well. If you can do 2-3K DPS (which many classes can) and you can stun someone for 6s then you can safely do 12,000 to 15,000 damage. Rogues have had issues like this as well, though it generally took a bit more skill to keep the opponent locked down while you killed them while helpless.

That is the frustrating thing in PvP regardless of how it happens. If any class can kill you or nearly kill you while you have no control of your toon it sucks. Fear nerfs happened because skilled warlocks could kill people in PvP while that person was completely helpless due to the fear and the DoTs ate them. As mentioned stuns got diminishing returns because rogues could do way to much to a helpless opponent. Hunter burst was nerfed because the essential one shooting of many toons, mostly to do with aimed shot + multi and mostly in the pre-TBC days. Mages had things taken away because of crazy burst combos as well. Other examples can be cited. So yeah I don't disagree with you. It's the most unfun part of PvP. Dying without a chance to do anything. Healers are really feeling it right now as well, the unfun part.

I don't think the issue is really burst damage. I think the issue is burst damage + control for rets right now. And while that pally that killed you was in a lot of trouble if anyone else with any skill attacked him (since he had no bubble, no stun, no real control options, though depending on lay on hands state he still might have had escape options) that still doesn't make it a satisfying experience. It's also hard to tell if that pally had any skill or just got lucky and that sucks too. Losing to a high skilled player who doesn't let you do much to them doesn't bother me too much.

Part of why I didn't mind TBC druids that much, they frustrated me, but it did require some skill to do what was needed to survive forever, there were plenty of resto druids that were only so-so that my hunter was able to dispatch. Not as fast as some other healers that I killed with him, but if the druid didn't have skill I could kill them.

Anyway just some ramblings on it. The bubble is still a problem and I could still live with it being removed and replaced with some other escape mechanism that wasn't quite as foolproof. I have used it a few times in PvE to save my butt, and wouldn't want any option, but not something so powerful.

Wintergrasp and BG's, IMO, are a very inaccurate PVP sampling. The Ret Paladin could have been in COMPLETE PVE gear. That means he could have been in complete 25 man gear. I can guarantee that he was in better than blues + heroics gear, and at least FULL 10 man gear to achieve that kind of DPS while using SoC.

Sure, stunned, you are VERY prone to the full assault of a ret paladin. in PVE gear they are going to be monsters. Because it was 1v1, there is no way to tell if it was OP or not. BLizzard has time and time again said that they DO NOT balance PVP around 1v1 matchups.

Ret isn't OP. I know, you are going to say "WHAT!?" but it's not. The thing that is OP across the board right now is burst damage. Look at the class that people are yelling about.

1.) ret paladin
2.) arcane mage

Both classes/specs have tremendous burst damage. They have tried to fix the paladin bubble. the only thing that is going to fix it? Make it so you can't attack while bubbled. that's the only fix.

If blizzard could find a way to smooth out the damage flow, pvp'ers would be a lot happier.

But then again, on my end, this is mostly theory. I read, I look at numbers, I try to interpret the data. I don't pvp. I despise pvp. I suck at pvp.

[Lissa]

You realize that 19K damage in 8s is only 2375 DPS. OK so that would be 4750 without the half damage penalty. Your 40% mit means just about nothing because most of that damage you took wasn't physical anyway. Judgement is holy, hammer of wrath is holy (and I'm sure you took one), seal of command damage is holy and in PvP I'm pretty sure the pally was using command and for you to take that much damage it had to proc, crusader strike is holy damage. So you mitigated 40% of the 2 or 3 physical swings that hit you. 5K DPS sustained for 5-10 seconds is not out of the reach of other classes either. Of course I wonder if he really was bubbled when he hammered you. Was it his bubble or was it the sacred shield effect that looks somewhat similar and in the heat of PvP can be mistaken. It doesn't make a lot of sense to bubble that early, bubbling near the end of the duration sure, but that would mean the DPS needed was even lower if even 2 sec of that time was not divine shield but sacred shield (the reactive healing spell).

Now I'm not saying it isn't a problem. The real problem with paladins in PvP has always been the bubble the stun has been an issue from time to time, but it's only a problem if they have enough burst damage. They now have enough burst damage if spec'd for it so that is a problem as well. If you can do 2-3K DPS (which many classes can) and you can stun someone for 6s then you can safely do 12,000 to 15,000 damage. Rogues have had issues like this as well, though it generally took a bit more skill to keep the opponent locked down while you killed them while helpless.

That is the frustrating thing in PvP regardless of how it happens. If any class can kill you or nearly kill you while you have no control of your toon it sucks. Fear nerfs happened because skilled warlocks could kill people in PvP while that person was completely helpless due to the fear and the DoTs ate them. As mentioned stuns got diminishing returns because rogues could do way to much to a helpless opponent. Hunter burst was nerfed because the essential one shooting of many toons, mostly to do with aimed shot + multi and mostly in the pre-TBC days. Mages had things taken away because of crazy burst combos as well. Other examples can be cited. So yeah I don't disagree with you. It's the most unfun part of PvP. Dying without a chance to do anything. Healers are really feeling it right now as well, the unfun part.

I don't think the issue is really burst damage. I think the issue is burst damage + control for rets right now. And while that pally that killed you was in a lot of trouble if anyone else with any skill attacked him (since he had no bubble, no stun, no real control options, though depending on lay on hands state he still might have had escape options) that still doesn't make it a satisfying experience. It's also hard to tell if that pally had any skill or just got lucky and that sucks too. Losing to a high skilled player who doesn't let you do much to them doesn't bother me too much.

Part of why I didn't mind TBC druids that much, they frustrated me, but it did require some skill to do what was needed to survive forever, there were plenty of resto druids that were only so-so that my hunter was able to dispatch. Not as fast as some other healers that I killed with him, but if the druid didn't have skill I could kill them.

Anyway just some ramblings on it. The bubble is still a problem and I could still live with it being removed and replaced with some other escape mechanism that wasn't quite as foolproof. I have used it a few times in PvE to save my butt, and wouldn't want any option, but not something so powerful.

It was definitely bubble cause I put my pet on him while stunned and was seeing Immune pop up every time the pet hit. So yes, he was bubbled from the start and still did almost 5k DPS without raid buffs, that's a bit crazy.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Resilience is surprisingly effective at neutering ret.

[Artega]

People are already screaming about Ret Damage being out of control even with the Bubble nerf. Case in point, I had a Ret Pally jump my Hunter in Wintergrasp. With full health, I was killed by said Pally 2 seconds after the HoJ stun dropped and I couldn't do a damn thing to the Paladin cause he was Bubbled at the time and there's no way for a Hunter to remove it (and he was Bubbled when he did the initial HoJ). When you can do almost 19k damage in 8 seconds when you're damage is cut in half and the target has 40% DR, there's something pretty wrong.

Get some Resilience, and get some HP. If you're getting instagibbed and you're wearing PvE equipment, you have no leg to stand on. PvP is balanced around the idea that you'll be sporting a decent amount of Resilience and the higher Stamina that comes from gear with Resilience on it.

Retribution Paladins are virtually a non-threat for me now. They lack the ability to consistently interrupt my heals (HoJ and Repentance, and they can't attack through Repentance), and once you get a decent amount of Resilience and HP, their burst isn't so crazy anymore.

By the way, might want to trinket the stun next time. Weren't wearing your trinket? Well, there's half your problem right there. Don't get into PvP outfitted for PvE and expect to live very long.

[Lissa]

Get some Resilience, and get some HP. If you're getting instagibbed and you're wearing PvE equipment, you have no leg to stand on. PvP is balanced around the idea that you'll be sporting a decent amount of Resilience and the higher Stamina that comes from gear with Resilience on it.

Retribution Paladins are virtually a non-threat for me now. They lack the ability to consistently interrupt my heals (HoJ and Repentance, and they can't attack through Repentance), and once you get a decent amount of Resilience and HP, their burst isn't so crazy anymore.

By the way, might want to trinket the stun next time. Weren't wearing your trinket? Well, there's half your problem right there. Don't get into PvP outfitted for PvE and expect to live very long.

He did the equivalent of 40k damage in 8 seconds Artega, he was bubbled when he did that. Think about that again. This is not 19k damage at full damage, this is 19k damage at half damage, ie 38k damage. This is no buffs outside his own and he pulled off the equivalent 5k raid DPS (which normally takes full raid buffs). This is why people are screaming about Ret Pallies and Arcane Mages.

[TheDragoon]

Of course tank gear is my 3rd set right now even though I was a jerk and took a helm that I should have let another pally have because I admit I got loot blinded. :)

That's ok, I think said paladin nabbed healing gear for his 3rd set since he was a jerk, too. :)

[TheDragoon]

This is no buffs outside his own and he pulled off the equivalent 5k raid DPS (which normally takes full raid buffs).

I imagine that 5k dps over a short burst isn't too far out of the realm of possibilities for a lot of classes. Just get a nice string of crits combined with dumping a full set of cooldown abilities and this sort of thing could probably happen with almost any player from a relatively bursty class who is geared up and knows what they are doing, they just have to get lucky. So what ends up happening is that people get totally blown away in one instance and then don't have near as much trouble in the next. And, of course, with anecdotal accounts like this people will fixate on the first rather than the second even if it happens rarely.

Talking about "damage per second" over 8 seconds and then comparing it to raid dps output is comparing apples and oranges since raid dps output is averaged over some relatively long time interval (like one boss fight or an entire instance). When you get down into a really short time interval, it's not too horribly surprising to see a large deviation.

Of course, none of this is to say that there isn't something that should be done, I just think that people exaggerate these sorts of things because they stick in their mind a lot more than what happens most of the time. :)

[Artega]

He did the equivalent of 40k damage in 8 seconds Artega, he was bubbled when he did that. Think about that again. This is not 19k damage at full damage, this is 19k damage at half damage, ie 38k damage. This is no buffs outside his own and he pulled off the equivalent 5k raid DPS (which normally takes full raid buffs). This is why people are screaming about Ret Pallies and Arcane Mages.

Ret Pallies are Arcane Mages aren't huge problems for me anymore. Sometimes there's nothing I can do - I ate a 10378 Arcane Blast on top of a 9k PoM-Frostfire Bolt and died instantly, but the mage had his stacks of Arcane Blast and he had to blow a cooldown to do it. In an arena setting, you'd simply not let him get the Arcane Blast stacks by pillarhumping and interrupts. In a Battleground, same thing... or just stay away from him.

Burst is out of control right now, sure, but so is burst healing; with only 1700-ish SP, I can drop 14-17k Holy Light crits that fill up someone's HP from almost nothing to almost full, and I can do it in under one second if I've got Light's Grace and Infusion of Light running on top of base Haste and Judgements of the Pure.

PvP as a whole needs a thorough examination, and I'm pretty sure that's what they've been doing for all of season five. I personally feel people need more HP in order to make up for the high burst DPS and healing, but Blizzard might not feel that way. It's Wait and See™ time.

[Swiss Mercenary]

He did the equivalent of 40k damage in 8 seconds Artega, he was bubbled when he did that. Think about that again. This is not 19k damage at full damage, this is 19k damage at half damage, ie 38k damage. This is no buffs outside his own and he pulled off the equivalent 5k raid DPS (which normally takes full raid buffs). This is why people are screaming about Ret Pallies and Arcane Mages.

Crits happen. Resilience makes the above extremely unlikely. I can't say I've ever experienced a 8-second 38K damage burst from a ret paladin. Then again, 800 resil (And the fact that the paladin would have to be wearing paper to hit that hard) may have something to do with that.

I can drop 14-17k Holy Light crits that fill up someone's HP from almost nothing to almost full, and I can do it in under one second if I've got Light's Grace and Infusion of Light running on top of base Haste and Judgements of the Pure.

Wouldn't it be nice if shamans had competitive healing throughput... But I suppose that'd be too much to ask for.

[Artega]

It'd also be nice if Paladins had ranged interrupts and slows. If wishes were fishes and all that.

[Tuftears]

Glyph of Exorcism makes Exorcise an interrupt.

... Exorcism will work on non-undead/demon targets in 3.1, it will just auto-crit against demons/undead.

[NiteFox]

Glyph of Exorcism makes Exorcise an interrupt.

... Exorcism will work on non-undead/demon targets in 3.1, it will just auto-crit against demons/undead.

An instant interrupt once every fifteen seconds?

Like hell that's not going to be nerfed at a future date.