The D1 Meet'n'Greet

[LennyLen]

because i only have Diablo as ISO, and it don´t let´s me insert my serial, don´t know why! But i´m tryin to get my cd back so i can play bnet as well.

Diablo doesn't have serial numbers.

[pmLowlandeR]

i got it from a pc magazine, there was a serial...

[Golemus]

Hi all. I am a new member and this post is just for giving me rights to create a topics.
Glad to see you, my friends.

[Elsairon]

Hi. I played a few variant games back in the day, and am currently trying to beat single player Solitare Ironman style w/ Sorcerer using full clears (including doors, chests, & barrels).

[Guest]

Anyone want to play Diablo? My username is: xgmx@uswest

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . am currently trying to beat single player Solitare Ironman style w/ Sorcerer using full clears (including doors, chests, & barrels).

Good luck. You trying normal only, or are you using the multi trick to do all three difficulties?

--Pete

[Elsairon]

Hi,
Good luck. You trying normal only, or are you using the multi trick to do all three difficulties?

--Pete

If I beat normal I'll be continuing. So far I have made it into Cats once out of 10+ attempts. About half the deaths were due to exploding barrels! (I could skip them, but the satisfaction of a full clear is worth more than the loss of 1 character in an attempt for me).

[--Pete]

hi,

If I beat normal I'll be continuing. So far I have made it into Cats once out of 10+ attempts. About half the deaths were due to exploding barrels! (I could skip them, but the satisfaction of a full clear is worth more than the loss of 1 character in an attempt for me).

Yeah, the exploding barrels, and the nova chests in caves and hell, have cost me many an immortal and ironman character. Seem unfair that the biggest challenge is some dumb trap;)

--Pete

[Nystul]

If I beat normal I'll be continuing. So far I have made it into Cats once out of 10+ attempts. About half the deaths were due to exploding barrels! (I could skip them, but the satisfaction of a full clear is worth more than the loss of 1 character in an attempt for me).

Barrel deaths are almost completely avoidable. Just make sure you have over 17 health and there is only one barrel next to you when you break it, if at all possible. IM solo mages are really tough, though. I've mostly avoided playing them, because they are so reliant on finding a purifying spring. If you can find a purifying spring before you run out of resources, and then stay alive long enough to find a mana shield book, the second half of the game might actually be somewhat easy.

But it would also be somewhat frustrating: kill a couple monsters, climb up 7 levels to the purifying spring, click it a hundred times, climb down 7 levels, kill a couple monsters... The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to stick with a warrior or rogue.

I always hit all of the chests and barrels to get the goodies, but I don't really consider it part of a full clear. Full clear means killing all of the bad guys. Barrels on levels with skeletons I might consider part of a full clear.:) Telekinesis on chests might be a good idea if you have it and a purifying spring, to avoid the buggy fire arrows or nova traps.

[--Pete]

Hi,

IM solo mages are really tough, though. I've mostly avoided playing them, because they are so reliant on finding a purifying spring. If you can find a purifying spring before you run out of resources, and then stay alive long enough to find a mana shield book, the second half of the game might actually be somewhat easy.

I just lost a solo ironman mage (that I started because of this thread) because he failed to find a book of healing, only found a few reds and heal scrolls, and got archers on level 2. He had a belt of blues left and a res scroll, but when the archers got him, what's the use? Restart in town, burn the res scroll, and go back down with 1 life?

Yep. Mages are hard to solo because at first they need some luck, and more than just a purifying spring. But with the spring, a decent fire and lightning spell, mana shield and maybe a level two or above stone curse, they should be almost unstoppable. Of course, that's pure speculation -- never even came close to that.

--Pete

[weakwarrior]

If you consider this cheating ignore this post. Since finding a purifying spring on level 1 is only a matter of time let me make it a bit easier for you. Set the year on your computer to 2039 and then start diablo. Remember, even if that's not cheating if you die and start a new game with the same year it isn't a fair way to IM.

Hi,
I just lost a solo ironman mage (that I started because of this thread) because he failed to find a book of healing, only found a few reds and heal scrolls, and got archers on level 2. He had a belt of blues left and a res scroll, but when the archers got him, what's the use? Restart in town, burn the res scroll, and go back down with 1 life?

Yep. Mages are hard to solo because at first they need some luck, and more than just a purifying spring. But with the spring, a decent fire and lightning spell, mana shield and maybe a level two or above stone curse, they should be almost unstoppable. Of course, that's pure speculation -- never even came close to that.

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

If you consider this cheating ignore this post. Since finding a purifying spring on level 1 is only a matter of time let me make it a bit easier for you. Set the year on your computer to 2039 and then start diablo. Remember, even if that's not cheating if you die and start a new game with the same year it isn't a fair way to IM.

Actually, the pseudo random number generator is seeded with the time, to the second, that the game is started. A number of people verified this by writing programs that constantly re-set the time to a value they picked and starting a game. For any given time, the games were identical if at the same difficulty. Thus, with a little experimenting, one can find a game with, say, both a purifying spring and a blood fountain, or whatever one wants, and replay that game as often as one wants to. 'Cheating' starts meaningless arguments so let's just say that that would make the game too boring to bother with.

'Clock freezing' is not cheating, per se. It is especially useful for Ironman tournaments. Since the degree of success in Ironman depends a lot on luck, having everyone play the same game (i.e., one started with the same PRNG seed) levels the playing field and makes for a fairer tournament. Also, clock freezing is useful in play, like Ironman and Immortal, where a single complete clear is called for. Since that is too much to do in a single sitting, clock freezing and a high level character allows you to stop anywhere. Simply restart the game with the same seed, use the high level character to quickly get back to where you were and carry on.

There are some other aspects of clock manipulation that others, who remember them better than do I, might want to discuss. For instance, there is a date past which the seed is always the same, and since the game fails to initialize some parameters, 'clock freezing', strictly speaking, should only work on the first game started after starting the program. Or, perhaps, it is possible to get a specific game layout by clock freezing to one time, starting a game, perhaps doing some of it (thus initializing some parameters) and then quitting, possibly changing the clock, and starting another game.

Frankly, all that messing around turns play into work, IMHO. Except possibly for tournaments, I'll just take what I get.

--Pete

[Galbraith]

Hello,

As for me messing with clock is not legit.
When someone justify "hey, let's messup with clock and we will have same chances in tournament" he opens way to thinking that other equalizing chances are also legit i.e. the same items for dueling (look at most of polish community playing with duplicates - for equal chances, and justifying - that it is for skill only) and you are not better then.
You can say - yes, but RNG is buggy, ok, but legit ones shall say - "Fate is my deciding god". Thats why they are looking for luck in randomness (searching for items, going through random levels).

If someone is playing IM of Immortal or whatever with fixed time and date - he shall speak of himself that he plays IM with fixed clock variation of variant, and not just IM.

As for me real IM is that one without reusing shrines, going back to level 1 for puryfying spring, storing items in town. But it is just my opinion. All other "tricks" are just waste of time for me (like i.e. going to town or other level to reuse some shrine) and are for pussies.

best regards
Galbraith

[LennyLen]

You can say - yes, but RNG is buggy, ok, but legit ones shall say - "Fate is my deciding god". Thats why they are looking for luck in randomness (searching for items, going through random levels).

A tournament where luck is the deciding factor isn't particularly fun though.

As for the slippery slope argument, it's been said more than once that if you want to play Diablo truly 'legit' then never take it out of the box. Let common sense rule.

[Nystul]

A tournament where luck is the deciding factor isn't particularly fun though.

Apparently you've never watched the World Series of Poker! :lol:

When every attack is a roll of the dice, fate will play some role. But luck is largely a self-made blessing in Ironman, and even more so with 3 man teams. It's all about hanging on through the tough patch until that next "lucky" item or whatever saves the day. Teams with unlimited access to a blood shrine and purifying spring wipe out more often than not, often with some unused res scrolls sitting around while everyone stares at their red screens wondering how it went sour so fast. Maybe they had a glimmering shrine and a gnarled root too. Maybe if they had stayed alive for one more room they get book of mana shield or a splint mail.

That said, if a time stamp is chosen randomly and agreed to before anyone has seen the game, and the players only see the game once and don't hear about it from anyone else, how is it different from randomly starting a game as usual? It's not different at all. So if someone wants to do a tournament by those parameters in the name of fairness (even though the fairly random choice of left or right from any stairs might decide the game), it seems just fine to me. Only if some rare and uber item pops in that game, we will start to see some raised eyebrows and pointed fingers.

But this is a heavy topic for the meet'n'greet! Hi, I'm Nystul, I used to play some Diablo every now and then...

[--Pete]

Hi,

As for me messing with clock is not legit.

Good. So don't.

When someone justify "hey, let's messup with clock and we will have same chances in tournament" he opens way to thinking . . .

Just because a door is open does not mean that you have to take it. That's what intelligent self control is all about.

. . . that other equalizing chances are also legit i.e. the same items for dueling . . .

Again, depends on how you do it. Best dueling experience I've ever had (and I admit, I haven't had many) was one where each person started a new character and fought with what they started with. Now, you might find some pretzel logic to claim that somehow this is not legit, but I'm not buying it, even if it comes with mustard.

. . . (look at most of polish community playing with duplicates - for equal chances, and justifying - that it is for skill only) and you are not better then.
You can say - yes, but RNG is buggy, ok, but legit ones shall say - "Fate is my deciding god". Thats why they are looking for luck in randomness (searching for items, going through random levels).

Sorry, too much lost in translation. Not sure what you mean by 'you are not better then', don't understand what the bugginess of the PRNG has to do with anything here, and not sure what you are getting at with the whole 'luck in randomness' bit.

If someone is playing IM of Immortal or whatever with fixed time and date - he shall speak of himself that he plays IM with fixed clock variation of variant, and not just IM.

And what, precisely, is the difference between starting the game *at* a random time as opposed to starting the game *with* a random time? Except, of course, that one is reproducible, the other is not.

As for me real IM is that one without reusing shrines, going back to level 1 for puryfying spring, storing items in town. But it is just my opinion. All other "tricks" are just waste of time for me (like i.e. going to town or other level to reuse some shrine) . . .

Sorry, you are not entitled to an opinion, because the defenition of IM is not yours to make. That has long since been made. You are free to add additional restrictions to any variant. You are free to make up your own variants. But you are a good ten years too late to redefine the existing variants.

. . . and are for pussies.

Spoken like a true childish brat (or governor of California)

--Pete

PS If a mod should pass by, would it be possible to split this sub thread off and make it a new regular thread?

[Galbraith]

First I don't want to redefine variants.
For me spirit of IM is not simulate finishing game in one session only - its where reusing of shrines came from.
Man of Iron is man which can withstand many tough situation, which can manage himself through extremal harsh circumstances. IM for me is first: survival.
Go through all, without help of town folks go there and kill, clear all not get killed.
Questions like: what to do with spare stuff, shrines that was not taken etc just complicates main rule.
The answer for me is:
Time is crucial, to beat IM you would like to have sometimes more than 10 hours.
Why then waste time to go back to bf, ps or even pepin, bottles of mana, cain?
It 1st consumes times 2nd is too easy (read for pussies). Cave-in is ofc variation of variant, but closest one to the spirit of IM.

And if you cannot realize what opening some doors in philosophy, social life (yes, D1 have communities, right?) and law (legitimacy) has effect on others I have one word for you "corruption" which shall explain what i mean.

I forgot:
Hello, I am Galbraith. I play IMs sometimes.

[Nystul]

The Ironman concept predates Diablo, and it's application to Diablo seems to have happened independently in multiple communities. Unlike any other variant at RBD, no member of that community or it's predecessors can claim to have invented Ironman. There were different sites with different tournament rules prior to those RBD rules being collated. The point is, everyone seems to have a little different take on how to do IM, and nobody can claim to be the authority on the subject. The gist of it is always the same though: you start with new characters, and once you go down into the dungeons you cannot use the town services, including restart in town. That is basically Ironman in one sentence.

Using town for storage became a matter of convenience. One could play more strictly that no return to town is allowed, and yet store items near staircases on certain levels and just have to hoof it to get to them. (Funny side note: this February, I won with a multi-solo IM rogue for the first time. About 7 levels into the game, I had so much stuff piled up in town that the item limit was exceeded and I had to move some scrolls into the catacombs!) The idea that levels should be cleared in full and then never returned to is certainly out there , but very far from universal. It used to be pretty common to skip Leoric and get a few level ups on 4, then return to 3, for example. I've even heard of people using town entrances to levels they haven't made it to yet and then working their way back!

Personally, most of my multiplayer IM games have been by the RBD standards ("relaxed fit"). For multi-solo IM, I leave the computer on and play it as one session. I clear every level before entering the next, but still allow myself to return to previous levels, including the use of town portal. I do not use res scrolls in solo games. I do not use purifying springs or blood fountains at all when playing a solo warrior or rogue. And I've never given much thought to continuing in Nightmare. But to each his own (as long as the general spirit remains true).

[--Pete]

Hi,

First I don't want to redefine variants.

But when you say things like " . . . real IM is that one without reusing shrines, going back to level 1 for puryfying spring, storing items in town." then redefining Ironman is exactly what you are doing. That you add, "But it is just my opinion." just shows that you don't understand what you are talking about. You cannot have an opinion about what Ironman is, because Ironman is already defined by a set of rules. You may have an opinion about the rules, whether you think they are too easy or too hard, or whether any of them should be modified. But if you change any of the rules, then you are no longer playing Ironman. You are playing a game that may be based on Ironman, may be a superset or a subset of Ironman, may be harder or easier. You are free to take those rules, publish them, argue them, whatever. You are free to give those rules a new name (say 'Steelman' or 'Superironman'). You are not free to say, in effect, that those that do not play by your rules are not playing Ironman, or not playing it correctly.

For me spirit of IM is . . .

No one really gives a crap. Ironman is a *game* played by a set of *rules*. It is not a philosophical system or an oriental religion. You don't have to take advantage of all the rules allow, but you cannot force your self imposed limitations on the remainder of the players.

And if you cannot realize what opening some doors in philosophy, social life (yes, D1 have communities, right?) and law (legitimacy) has effect on others I have one word for you "corruption" which shall explain what i mean.

Basically, that is the 'slippery slope' argument which no intelligent person really accepts. The reason is that it leads, inevitably, to a regress that is either infinite, absurd, or both.

Consider: A is bad. B could lead to A, so B must be banned. But C could lead to B, so C must be banned. And so fourth. In practical terms, the chain often is terminated when the absurdity reaches a high enough level (a ban on cooking a kid in its mother's milk leading to splitting a kitchen into 'meat' and 'dairy' parts).

Or, as LennyLen put it, "As for the slippery slope argument, it's been said more than once that if you want to play Diablo truly 'legit' then never take it out of the box. Let common sense rule."

You do know what 'common sense' is, don't you?

--Pete

[weakwarrior]

Well, well. And I thought you would play all your games as a mage-geezer ironman (obviously cave-in). I´m disappointed.

Personally, most of my multiplayer IM games have been by the RBD standards ("relaxed fit"). For multi-solo IM, I leave the computer on and play it as one session. I clear every level before entering the next, but still allow myself to return to previous levels, including the use of town portal. I do not use res scrolls in solo games. I do not use purifying springs or blood fountains at all when playing a solo warrior or rogue. And I've never given much thought to continuing in Nightmare. But to each his own (as long as the general spirit remains true).

Also could you post a write-up of your solo-multi im rogue win? With warriors when I lose in solo-multi I at least have some idea how I could have improved. With rogues I often have no idea. With mages I blame it on my impatience with walking back to the ps every 2 seconds:).

(Funny side note: this February, I won with a multi-solo IM rogue for the first time. About 7 levels into the game, I had so much stuff piled up in town that the item limit was exceeded and I had to move some scrolls into the catacombs!)