The D1 Meet'n'Greet

[Galbraith]

Hi,
But when you say things like " . . . real IM is that one without reusing shrines, going back to level 1 for puryfying spring, storing items in town." then redefining Ironman is exactly what you are doing.

Yes, read carefully: "I don't WANT TO redifine" -my second post to that topic, kinda erratum

You cannot have an opinion about what Ironman is, because Ironman is already defined by a set of rules

look at Ironman rules on RealmsBeyond lets say , and count how many rules are common or uncommon, or clarified by someone who didn't create them, you will recognize many of which I wrote about. Yes It is about feeling the rules, and choosing which ones fit me well. If I am playing cave-in IM without buying in town (waste of time) I am still playing IM.
And if you want to play IM with fixed clock - you can say about yourself that you are playing IM, but of course special one, which fits you well. But we are not playing the same IM. That's why it have to be described as IM smth, or IM with or without smth. (i.e. just like duels with dupes -entire different competition, which often cannot be played with 'normal' character).

And as Nystul wrote:

The Ironman concept predates Diablo, and it's application to Diablo seems to have happened independently in multiple communities.

I remember Ironman in ADOM (it's rougelike) but probably it is older than ADOM..

You may have an opinion about the rules

thank you for permision... you know my opinion about some rules.

And about Legit things: I am guidin myself through that like this: To be legit is to not cheat (we can discuss what is cheat, we cannot discuss what is legit) I.E if both players play duels with dupes, and agreed to that rules they don't cheat each others in competition, but cheat in-game rules using bugs, or smth else.

Basically, that is the 'slippery slope' argument which no intelligent person really accepts

"While the logic in a slippery slope argument is invalid, its conclusion may still be true."

Nevermind, I just wanted to say that switching time in generating d1 games to fixed kills randomness of it and it can be considered sumkinda cheating, ya know.

But a Tournament with such dates which are revealed to teams just before start is interesting new way of such competitions in IM. Obviously cannot be confused with 'normal' 'common' IM tournament because organization and gameplay uses smth that totally change way of view for that.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Nevermind, I just wanted to say that switching time in generating d1 games to fixed kills randomness of it and it can be considered sumkinda cheating, ya know.

Again, depends. Consider what we'll do after the date that the clock will no longer give random games. Will we quit playing? Will we play the same game over and over? Or will we pick some earlier time at random to give us a random game?

I reiterate; clock freezing is not cheating, but it can be used to cheat. Like backing up character files, it depends on how it is used and what it is used for. I don't believe I can make my position any clearer.

But a Tournament with such dates which are revealed to teams just before start is interesting new way of such competitions in IM. Obviously cannot be confused with 'normal' 'common' IM tournament because organization and gameplay uses smth that totally change way of view for that.

First, since the technique has been used for about ten years, it is hardly an "interesting new way".

Second, the competitors do not need to be told the clock setting. A tournament 'official' can start the game on his computer which is set for the desired time. The contestants join, the official leaves to start a game for another bunch of contestants. Same thing on restarts.

Third, what specific "change way of view for that" are you thinking of? Except that it eliminates the luck factor of what is in the dungeon, it changes nothing else. If you think that it is preferable to have the tournament determined by the luck of getting an easier layout and monsters rather than by the skill of the players, then I don't understand your reasoning, but, again, you are entitled to that opinion.

--Pete

[Galbraith]

Hi,
Again, depends. Consider what we'll do after the date that the clock will no longer give random games. Will we quit playing? Will we play the same game over and over? Or will we pick some earlier time at random to give us a random game?

computer gaming have around 35 years history, And which games from beginning are still played? Diablo will stop generate random in next 20 years. 2 possible things - someone will take care of that. And more probably way - to play that game you will have to emulate windows from another version and have to use drivers and other helps to run. Like today games in DOS or games from older computers (like apple II) - emulator.
Today many games require frame limiters or processor killers to run and ofc some program which will emulate different date for running diablo with randoms. In next 20 years you will have to use more things to run d1. What about BN? probably Diablo will disappear or generating games will be fixed. Choose for yourself, probably, you can't change its fate.

First, since the technique has been used for about ten years, it is hardly an "interesting new way".

I never heard of tournaments with locked date.. is there some trace of that in web? I thought that time-locking and using it to regenerate same games was 'invented' a lot later than 10 years ago..

I reiterate; clock freezing is not cheating, but it can be used to cheat. Like backing up character files, it depends on how it is used and what it is used for. I don't believe I can make my position any clearer.

Someone could says exactly same for dupes..

Except that it eliminates the luck factor of what is in the dungeon, it changes nothing else.

It is that. For me it is major factor for Ironmans, that they don't know what is lurking around the corner, but if they are good - they can handle everything. And If i generate game at locked time, I can simple regenerate same game - it is not same playing anymore, cause i can replay something, do something better at another time etc.
If noone knows the date before start playing - that's acceptable - but ofc it is a new vision of that, becouse everyone can see and compare skills of players. And you will never know is someone replays game or not.

Good idea about one creator for all teams. - but it would require LAN games with all teams. (or time-locking works for BN? nah)

[LennyLen]

I thought that time-locking and using it to regenerate same games was 'invented' a lot later than 10 years ago..

It's definitely been done for a long, long, time.

Someone could says exactly same for dupes..

No, as there's no other reason for duping other than cheating. There is of course f accidentally activating the duping bug, in which case simply not using the duped item should be enough to stop even the most extreme purist from crying foul.

For me it is major factor for Ironmans, that they don't know what is lurking around the corner, but if they are good - they can handle everything. And If i generate game at locked time, I can simple regenerate same game - it is not same playing anymore, cause i can replay something, do something better at another time etc.

We're talking about a tournament here where everyone plays the same dungeon once, so there is no replaying the same layout by one person more than once (provided they don't know the seed in advance, which is what Pete was referring to by having one person set the seed for the other players).

but it would require LAN games with all teams. (or time-locking works for BN? nah)

Of course it's possible on bnet. You just don't modify the seed generation code until after validation checking has been done.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I never heard of tournaments with locked date.. is there some trace of that in web? I thought that time-locking and using it to regenerate same games was 'invented' a lot later than 10 years ago..

Your google-fu is weak. A search with diablo tournament "clock freeze" turned up a few hits, including this from May 16, 1999.

It is that. For me it is major factor for Ironmans, that they don't know what is lurking around the corner, but if they are good - they can handle everything.

In clock frozen tournaments, the players don't f***king know what's around the the next corner.

And If i generate game at locked time, I can simple regenerate same game - it is not same playing anymore, cause i can replay something, do something better at another time etc.

Again, in a well run tournament you don't know the seed, so you can't do this.

I understand not following the discussion the first time because of language difficulty. Maybe twice. But after something has been explained multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple ways, then another cause for the lack of understanding must be assumed. Any suggestions for what that may be?

If noone knows the date before start playing - that's acceptable - but ofc it is a new vision of that, becouse everyone can see and compare skills of players. And you will never know is someone replays game or not.

What is 'ofc'? And you cannot replay the game if you don't know the TIME (not just date) used to randomize the seed. Glad that you finally consider what I've been saying is not cheating all along is acceptable to you.

Good idea about one creator for all teams. - but it would require LAN games with all teams. (or time-locking works for BN? nah)

Yes, it does if you've got the brains to do it. It'll never be a concern for you.

--Pete

[Galbraith]

Tal's edit: Yes Pete was rude. You, however, crossed the line.

[Tal]

I'm not happy about having to enforce civility on the Lounge forums - especially when a friend is involved. Please, lets keep it PG-13 and civil Pete.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I'm not happy about having to enforce civility on the Lounge forums - especially when a friend is involved. Please, lets keep it PG-13 and civil Pete.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

OK. Sorry. I might have failed in civility, but where did I cross the PG-13 line? Not arguing, but I really want to know since I've just rescanned my posts and don't see it. On the basis of I can't fix it if I can't see it, please point it out so that I can avoid it.

Thanks.

--Pete

[Tal]

Hi,
OK. Sorry. I might have failed in civility, but where did I cross the PG-13 line? Not arguing, but I really want to know since I've just rescanned my posts and don't see it. On the basis of I can't fix it if I can't see it, please point it out so that I can avoid it.

Thanks.

--Pete

Thanks for your understanding Pete. Here is the relevant (that doesn't look like the right spelling despite what the dictionary says) passage:

In clock frozen tournaments, the players don't f***king know what's around the the next corner.

Aye its masked due to the forum software but I've seen you express a similar concept without it.;)

[--Pete]

Hi,

Thanks for your understanding Pete. Here is the relevant (that doesn't look like the right spelling despite what the dictionary says) passage:
Aye its masked due to the forum software but I've seen you express a similar concept without it.;)

OK. I've seen that used in the Lounge before by others (as well as myself) and haven't seen any complaints. But consider it purged from my Lurker Lounge vocabulary.

BTW, the '***" were from me, not the forum software, which would have changed it to '#$%&ing'. (I tested it;)).

--Pete

[Tal]

BTW, the '***" were from me, not the forum software, which would have changed it to '#$%&ing'. (I tested it;)).

--Pete

Hmmm knowing that may have swung the vote t'other way. I must ponder this more...

[--Pete]

Hi,

Hmmm knowing that may have swung the vote t'other way. I must ponder this more...

OK, I know I'm going way off topic, but you got me curious. So I checked the movie ratings out. I was surprised to find out just how strange they are. Thought I'd share. :whistling:

--Pete

[weakwarrior]

Thanks for your understanding Pete. Here is the relevant (that doesn't look like the right spelling despite what the dictionary says) passage:

In clock frozen tournaments, the players don't f***king know what's around the the next corner.

Clearly he meant freaking. It is a testament to Pete´s class that he didn´t even want to put a word like freak on this forum.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Clearly he meant freaking. It is a testament to Pete´s class that he didn´t even want to put a word like freak on this forum.

Thanks, now I know what blowing tea out of my nose feels like. Coulda warned me. :lol:

--Pete

[Tal]

Hi,
Thanks, now I know what blowing tea out of my nose feels like. Coulda warned me. :lol:

--Pete

Hot or cold? Because I know what hot feels like. :wacko:

[--Pete]

Hi,

Hot or cold? Because I know what hot feels like. :wacko:

Warm. I fix it in a 20 ounce Starbucks cup and sip on it for about an hour. That way I get the full spectrum;)

--Pete

[Galbraith]

No, as there's no other reason for duping other than cheating.

I would not agree.

clock freezing is ok for tournaments, where not-randomly generated games are played once, and only once - TO MAKE EQUAL CHANCES AND SKILL FACTOR DECIDE.
It can be abused to generate some expected items, dupes or smth else at replays.

dupes are bad all people know about it
but using dupes in duels, when both players agree to such rule - it is acceptable and there is no cheat of each other - TO MAKE EQUAL CHANCES AND SKILL FACTOR DECIDE.

I am usually against dupes in normal games, as against clock freezing in normal games. And I am not using them. But I wrote this to clear the idea.

And to Pete:
I answered your post, but I crossed some limits, you know. And believe it is not about your "freaking" or whatever word. Discussion with you is ended, because all you can is insulting others, and I don't want to discuss with destroyed ambitions guy, that thinks he ate all minds, because you are simply rude one. (ask Tal if anyone is interesting what I wrote about.)

Btw - I cannot see all posts in hi-fi version. Please fix it. (especially last ones)
And it will be good to move that time-about discussion somewhere else.

[Tal]

And to Pete:
I answered your post, but I crossed some limits, you know. And believe it is not about your "freaking" or whatever word. Discussion with you is ended, because all you can is insulting others, and I don't want to discuss with destroyed ambitions guy, that thinks he ate all minds, because you are simply rude one. (ask Tal if anyone is interesting what I wrote about.)

No folks shouldn't ask me what you wrote. Your post was moderated because you broke the rules of the forum. It defeats the purpose of moderating the post if readers can just find out from me what you wrote.

[Galbraith]

No folks shouldn't ask me what you wrote. Your post was moderated because you broke the rules of the forum. It defeats the purpose of moderating the post if readers can just find out from me what you wrote.

I can live with that.

[maht1]

Hello everyone,

A few people here will probably know me from the pvp tournament i entered (http://freshmeat-blog.de.tl/Call-To-Arms-2009.htm). My account names are maht1 and eW.TezZa. I have been playing casually since 2003, mostly on us west (ahh the days of paranoia and avoiding the pk heheh). Since 2008 i have been occasionally hanging around in channel diablo le at us east.

I usually play coop, but don't mind the occasional pvp duel. Before finding out about the us east community i usually gamed with friends on us west. We usually play starcraft on us west but once in awhile 3 or 4 of us get a coop going (most of the time trying to get someone in diablo usa-1 to host for us heheh).

Nice meeting you all.