Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works

[ShadowHM]

Welcome Back !

I might have known it would be a puzzle that would be the catalyst. :P

[Crystalion]

Nice try, but the interlock prevents the character from descending the (open) stairs. You raise this question later along with excellent points that I will not further spoil here.

Actually any character can go down these stairs if they are open reguardless of if they have completed the council quest. I have done it many time with characters that have not done the quest already.

This was not my recollection (and I know I've tested it previously) so I tested it again... indeed you can go down the stairs.

This means that I am in error: only 3 kills (credit) are requisite (at a minimum) to advance to nightmare (in classic... to stay there if you convert to LoD you need also to kill nm Andy first--this also means you need to kill hell andy and talk to hell act 2 Tyriel to stay in hell post-convert).

None of these kills have regen (unlike the Council). Therefore a clvl 1 character could suffice, e.g. Firebolt (by newbie staff sorc).

Hmm, here's a quote apropo of this situation...

There is no sadder sight in the world than to see a beautiful theory killed by a brutal fact.
~ Thomas Huxley

;)

[Crystalion]

But regarding the question I've been playing classic cause i need to get my expansion back from a friend.  I just got a poison shrine earlier today and it worked just like they used to.  pumped out the poison and dropped about 9 potions.

I'm not up on the mechanics of Poison Shrines, but isn't it the case that they drop the higher clvl req potions, and never the useful (for this discussion) clvl 6 req ones? Ditto on the Exploding Shrines?

[Chesspiece_face]

I'm not up on the mechanics of Poison Shrines, but isn't it the case that they drop the higher clvl req potions, and never the useful (for this discussion) clvl 6 req ones? Ditto on the Exploding Shrines?

not sure i'll check when i get a chance later. i found another shrine earlier and picked up the potions.

Edit: The potions dropped are lvl 16 required. so yeah for this discussion they are not usable. but to clarify the other point, throwing potions are droppable from shrines in CD2.

[30ftSmurf]

Thank you for the detailed reply, not that I expected anything less :) Having said that, one runs the risk of taking such things for granted, especially with spellforce taking a hold on your time!

Some responses and questions below - mainly for my amusement.

In D1 terms players occupy a 0..3 "slot" and players leaving and coming in could actually have some odd attribution effects. I wasn't certain D2 might not suffer the same quirk in some cases. However, atm, I suspect the anti-unfair-PvP tweaks to the game remove most if not all of the latitude for playing with this (poison, open wounds, rabies, etc.) Did you know, for example, that you get credit for your Rabies kills from asymetric PvP (i.e. faux foe) tranmission to monsters?

I had wondered if anyone had looked into this behaviour in D2, specifically the effects on monster AI. Such things could make the ancients much less of a strain on ranged attackers, much like leoric tracking the warrior creator of an ironman game. As you have attempted to keep your thoughts on this brief here, presumably in an attempt to stick to the task at hand, I shall do likewise.

I am convinced that there is only one truly good all-around answer as low as clvl 6. Other answers mostly work, but I wanted an answer that would work even in act 3 hell

How cruel for such elegance to be removed by the, now clarified, ability to dive down into the durance without killing the council.

Yes, as I noted in another reply, you can't have long marches opening up zones and then still expect a monster to be nearly dead when you finally show up (if the zone is fully closed down the monster will be recreated with full HPs, even if they are a "doesn't regen" act boss).

I wasn't fully aware of this when structuring my initial response, although it makes good sense. There are some questions here for another thread: how and when a zone is fully closed down, what happens to a monster lured out of its starting zone if that zone is then closed - if that zone can actually be closed whilst this is the case! One would imagine, if the monster was a part of the zone (presumably more likely with super uniques than normal monsters - although there may not be a difference at all) and so could stop zone collapse by being active away from the area of the game in which it was spawned, that the slivering effect could be preserved by luring a monster back into active areas of the game and making sure the rushee kept him active during her travels.

I may be entertaining things here which are ridiculous to those who know more about how D2 deals with 'zones' and what a zone actually is, I shall have to search the archive for more information on this.

if a player who is allowed to pop the chest (staff/amu) or kill a council member (flail, horcube), etc. etc., then the total count in game of people "live" for the quest *drop* is counted. However "live" is generally restricted to party members. In large public games people often habitually all party up, even though they aren't adventuring together. So the issue is deterministic but rather opaque, having several considerations. In any event, were Durimules not effectively "infinite" horstaves, one could indeed "farm" them for efficiency.

I understand I wasn't at all clear with my initial observation here. This was an oddity which sticks quite vividly in my mind. I'd like to reply more in-depth on this when I respond to Ruvanal.

You have some implied fuzziness on the interlocks for the Palace/AS. I suppose I'll have to write up my Durimule sometime to attempt, once again, (but in one post) to clear up some of these issues. Once you have my Durimule one of the things you can do is to take a new entrant to act2 and just walk through the act.

You have provided a few hints in your post about your Durimule creation. I have some ideas, but I'd not want to steal your thunder and would definitely appreciate the full writeup. My last sticking point here is how best to deal with the clawviper quest state on the mule (and if it actually matters). The key thing here (for me at least) being how the state of the palace guard is affected by game creation by a character who has kicked the altar vs. game rejoins by characters who haven't.

There are alot of other interesting points in your reply, I don't feel the need to expand on them here as most of them serve to either confirm, expand or correct. I seriously run the risk of heading on trips down memory lane when discussing what I'd like to see from your bank of knowledge - I fear I would rapidly become overdrawn ;) I shall part on that issue with one of many useful quotes on such subjects: "If today's the day it gets tired, today's the day we drop out".

[30ftSmurf]

For the staff and amulet, the number dropped is equal to the number of players in the a game that have not done that the Horadric Staff quest yet and needs that part. So if the rusher opens the maggot queens chest while being the only one in the game there will be no staff. The alter can only be activated by a character that has not yet completed the 'Tainted Sun' quest and you will only get 1 amulet for each character currently in the game that has not done that the Horadric Staff quest yet and needs that part.

The chest in the Halls of the Dead (or travical council member) will drop 1 cube for each character in the game that does not currently have one. If you drop your cube on the ground before opening the chest, then it will count your character as needing one also. An interesting way to 'mine' some extra cubes if everyone in the game would drop their cubes before the chest is opened.

I'd like to expand on my initial observation, I was atrociously vague. This is quite a vivid memory in my mind, I hope it achieves some of that impact in text.
I tend not to complete quests ahead of the pack in public games, I find it terribly antisocial. That said, providing a tp to horadric cubes as soon as a group of andariel killers enter act2 is usually appreciated :)
In this particular game I had been part of the andariel kill and just started on act 2. As is, unfortunately, the norm in such games, most of the party had immediately quit following entry into Lut Gholein. Some stuck around for radament but, by the time we hit the final level of the halls of the dead, just two of us remained.

I popped the chest, out came 7 horadric cubes.

Maybe my brain is playing tricks and other players had joined the game by this time. I'm not convinced this is the case as I believe I hit p, to check for players who might want a cube, and then used my friends list to see if anyone had a low lvl character in need of one.
This is what spawned the "maximum number of players that have ever been in the game at one time" comment. I guess I shall have to find another public game and investigate what I saw, as it seems to go against accepted reasoning here.

I have rather hurriedly extended this point to other quest items and, as you point out, this is not necessarily as safe as one might initially assume. I pondered whether or not the characters needed the quest based on a similar observation to yours in act 3 with the squishy parts, thankyou for clearing that point up :)

The idea of dropping ones horadric cube to get a second is actually useful for the single cd key rush on display here - stamina potions can be saved by the rusher dropping his cube in town and collecting a second from the tomb.

[30ftSmurf]

I might have known it would be a puzzle that would be the catalyst.

You know me too well - there may be consequences, be wary of any unmarked sedan ;)

[Crystalion]

Thank you for the detailed reply, not that I expected anything less :)  ...

You have provided a few hints in your post about your Durimule creation.  I have some ideas, but I'd not want to steal your thunder and would definitely appreciate the full writeup.

In the context of the *how* in this discussion I can at least give the *what* while saving time at present by not debating the *why*...

If the quests (act 2) are considered to be:
1 2 3
4 5 6

Then a "perfect" Durimule, imo, has only 2 and 4 completed, with 6 showing TToTR (icon for True Tomb). Therefore 1, 3, and 5 are completely blank (i.e. not even triggered).

Such a mule creating a game allows the following:

1. the true tomb is known upon game creation
2. the doorway in town into the palace is open
3. the doorway down to Duriel is open
4. All the goodies are available (Radament; Viper quest if you want to get TP access to AS instead of walking down; Summoner quest if you want to get TP access to Tyriel instead of walking; Tyriel for act completion).

Such a mule is created by:

1. prospective Durimule gets to act 2
2. lend them a horcube
3. give them a staff and amulet to combine (without having them involved in party if quests change state)
4. they combine them in a game (e.g. they created) in which that affects the quest state
5. walk them to Duriel's antechamber to place the staff (town to harem to palace to AS to Canyon to TToTR Orifice--without having them involved in party if incidental quests change state, such as summoner kill)

[Crystalion]

How cruel for such elegance to be removed by the, now clarified, ability to dive down into the durance without killing the council.

Well, there is usually the ability to add extra constaints to a problem to "re-vitalize" it in the face of such prima facie "waste" of clever thinking.

In this case it is somewhat interesting to ask if one can "solo" into Hell residency while being clvl 1?

Once you get to nightmare you might be home-free, because you can (softcore) die to wipe your xp... the only problem being if an act boss kill pushes you into clvl 2+ by itself.

Poison and Open Wounds are among the nicer ways to facilitate such an endeavor, because they can potentially kill a mob for you, giving you credit, without giving you xp (by virtue of the fact that you're conveniently lying on the floor, dead). And, of course, Poison Javalin is interesting for this reason, although you'd have to be clvl 6.

Firebolt and Teeth won't carry effects or poison and Smite won't carry poison. This leads us to guess that a clvl 1 Paly, who got a skill point by killing the final monstor in the Den (no need to kill more and risk leveling up), might be able to Smite Things to get OW on them. Of course the OW from a clvl 1 is probably pretty pathetic. And getting in close enough to deliver the smite before croaking is a phenomenally nasty constraint (vs. the act bosses in question).

But, whether one finds solutions or dead-ends, the journey is the reward. Id est, I find it fun to puzzle out regardless.

Since Smite is theoretically possible, but rather problematic, I'm inclined toward Teeth (slvl 1 via clvl 1 Den trick). This raises the question of whether the xp for a kill of Andy+Meph+Diablo in normal for a clvl 1 pushes them to clvl 2+. I don't know the answer to that off-hand (and calculating it is tedious, since I'd require in-game verification anyway).

Should a clvl 1 "soloist" prove possible, a Mongoesque writeup of "geez, D2 is a really easy game, here's how I beat it at clvl 1!" would be amusing, along the lines of...

"I made the scene in Sanctuary looking for action with my trusty Firebolt Staff. The Grrls there were bitchin that the land was overrun by demons--cool! I was so excited! So I walked and walked and walked and walked, but I didn't see any. Bummer. Finally I found this goth chick having a bad hair day, but one Firebolt smoked her sorry ass. Since this place was so, like, not happening, I decided to hitch a ride East, with Warriv, who says he's got a 'caravan master', which I think is, like, a tricked out SUV or something..."

[Ruvanal]

Crystalion:

This raises the question of whether the xp for a kill of Andy+Meph+Diablo in normal for a clvl 1 pushes them to clvl 2+. I don't know the answer to that off-hand (and calculating it is tedious, since I'd require in-game verification anyway).

I am not sure of what scaling factors are applied to this in D2C, but the numbers for a ladder LoD game would be:
Andariel
mlvl=12
single player Exp=1282

With a level 1 character the difference in level would adjust the experience by *5/256, so the character would get 1282*5/256=25 exp.

Mephisto
mlvl=26
single exp=10718
earned exp= 10718*5/256=209

Diablo
mlvl=40
single exp=44902
earned exp= 44902*5/256=876

Since you only need 500 exp for the level up it would be pretty hard to avoid this in LoD once you got to Diablo. While I am pretty sure that the mlvl of the boss monster is scaled down in D2C and the experience is also scaled down for all the monsters, I do not think that the amount of the scaling will be enough for a character to avoid going up in levels verses some of the act bosses. But you might be able to get to act 4 without leveling if you are careful.

[Crystalion]

Diablo
mlvl=40
single exp=44902
earned exp= 44902*5/256=876

Since you only need 500 exp for the level up it would be pretty hard to avoid this in LoD once you got to Diablo.

Actually Diablo is the least OW/poison-delayed-damage-so-you-can-be-dead requiring act boss, because he so reliably has damage "in the air" that you can walk into to suicide.

What I am saying is this:

1. static him down to nearly nothing (done by rusher)
2. rushee walks into CS from RoF waypoint
3. sets TP (since failure/retry is likely)
4. gets close to Diablo for a shot (Teeth or Firebolt, e.g.)
5. makes shot when D's Firestorm or Lightning breath is available to immediately suicide
6. if shot doesn't connect and finish off D, loop back to #3 by using TP
7. otherwise you get credit for killing D, but since you're dead, no xp
8. come back and pick up D's drops, because you *earned* them ;)

Aside from frustration (looping due to Fire Nova nailing you when D is off-screen, e.g.) the big risk here is not getting yourself killed before the shot nails Diablo. This is point favoring clvl 1 req fire throwing potions, due to their long travel time (except that we don't believe such are available in classic, atm). This point also favors faux foe (asymmetric PvP) use of Slow Missiles to slow down the missile used to kill D (except that our thought-experiment constraint does not allow two players in the game at the same time).

Since the next xp level-up is at 1500 (only 1000 more) it seems likely that you could take a clvl 1 character that had nearly leveled and get them enough xp to generate more than one level-up from a single kill (e.g. Players 2 D kill in normal... clearly there is more xp available to a clvl 1 in hell). This trivia is mildly amusing but of no practical use that I can see. It does make me wonder, though, if you can fight Players N spawn solo? That is, can you have a game with Players N in it that spawns a mob, then leave the game entirely empty, and enter with a solo player that encounters mobs pre-spawned at the higher HP/xp? I'd imagine so, subject to the usual (fuzzy as far as our current common wisdom knows atm) zone shutdown/recreate factors.