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Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-24-2004

I think everyone who cares is well aware that having two players in a game makes possible "easy" waypoint, TP and quest rushing of various sorts.

A month ago, when I was still playing D2 (I've been playing Spellforce lately), I went on a a trip and lost the ability I normally have to have multiple characters in one game (I normally have more than one cdkey). For grins I thought about the problem of no-twink *solo* rushing with one cdkey. I came to the conclusion that what I know about rushing can indeed be applied successfully to this oddball problem.

Naturally you'd be far better off getting a friend to help you out (or buying/setting up for two+ cdkeys) or even getting strangers in public games to grant you waypoints. But it is indeed possible to difficulty level and hellforge rush on ladder with only one cdkey with no interaction with other players (or their games).

It is probably more fun to twink or play normally, however, as some of what is necessary is rather mindless.

My rushee is clvl 8 (convenience) and in nightmare. She has never been in a game with another character. She has never been twinked.

Ironically, in her adventures, she has actually gotten a couple items I covet (that I would have taken from her for my "real" characters if I had not stopped playing).

I mention this here ala Fermat, in case any of you rushing-types care to enjoy puzzling out how this is possible (I'm pretty efficient about it, actually, with the lack of waypoint/TP granting being the only big loss compared to 2 cdkey rushing).

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - LiquidDamage - 02-24-2004

My guess would be that you create a game with the character you want to rush, burn it in, then switch to a more powerful one to kill everything on the path to the act bosses.

The one thing I can't figure out is how you get credit for things like the summoner and the high council, or the act bosses (aside from talking to tyrael for passing duriel) without killing them yourself or having someone else in the game to kill them.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Samka - 02-24-2004

Um, well Classic (obviously), and then use bnet's ability to join your own game (solo muling), and for quest kills I guess you'd just take them down to near zero life and come in with the rushee with a useful finishing ability.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - LiquidDamage - 02-24-2004

Samka,Feb 24 2004, 02:06 AM Wrote:Um, well Classic (obviously)
Whoops. Yeah, forgot about all the differences in classic. One big thing is that I hear there is no difficulty based cap on static field. You very well could finish them off with a choking gas potion, I'd imagine.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-25-2004

LiquidDamage,Feb 24 2004, 10:53 AM Wrote:Whoops.  Yeah, forgot about all the differences in classic.  One big thing is that I hear there is no difficulty based cap on static field.  You very well could finish them off with a choking gas potion, I'd imagine.
You're both on the right track, of course. But there are a number of finesses you're not considering because you're not looking at the "hard parts" closely enough. Some of the finesses rely on a better knowledge of general rushing tricks to efficiently bypass "anti-rush" than is commonly available on forums, so I have a bit of an unfair edge there.

BTW, no throwing potions exist in classic. And throwing weapons are always plain (no magic/rare/unique and so no "of piercing" ITD throwing possible).

There are a number of "useful finishing abilities" to choose from (again, classic omits Druids and, my fav, Assassins on this score) and you might find replicating my logic as to the "best one" in theory to be interesting. It did indeed work out in practice, for what it's worth.

I'm not being more specific purely because there are a number of fun puzzles here (not to mention other technical trivia than that mentioned thus far), and it seems premature to provide spoilers. :)

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - adeyke - 02-25-2004

Quote:BTW, no throwing potions exist in classic.

This is incorrect. There have been throwing potions since the beginning. They weren't introduced in the expansion.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - gekko - 02-25-2004

Well, the obvious place to begin thinking here is act 2. So, without testing, I have a few questions and a few suggestions for how to squeak through the deserts as quickly as possible.

Passing a completed act 2 staff to new characters is a relatively simple task. If having the staff (and not completing the related quests) is the requirement for entering the canyon, that's one problem solved.

Second problem, knowing which tomb. This can also be easily solved by the use of a "durimuel." Create a character who has completed act 2 up and including quest 5. Place the staff into the orifice but DO NOT kill duriel for or with this character.

If this character makes a new game, he will know the correct symbol and the tomb will be open. So, if my earlier conjecture about requiring the staff, NOT completing the quests, is true, you could create the game with a durimuel, enter with the rusher, whittle Duriel down to a sliver, enter the game with your rushee and finish him off. Obviously this requires some manner of finishing skill, but it could be done. With a fast rusher, act 2 can be completed very easily and very quickly.

Hope I solved the act 2 dilema, anyways.

gekko

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Obi2Kenobi - 02-25-2004

Even having the Staff isn't a requirement for entering the Canyon. In the expansion (not sure about classic) you need to do the 3rd quest (kick the altar) to get to the Arcane Sanctuary. Not sure if you need to actually get credit for the Summoner, or if you can just get a town portal right next to the red portal and take that one.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Wyrm - 02-26-2004

You need to be there for the summoner kill, even though you don't have to actually make it. And I'm pretty sure you can get to the arcane with just the staff, I think I've done that several times.

As for getting through at level 8... I'm trying to remember if you can still buy a high level merc at a low level... well, owell. I know you can get a bunch of jewels of envy and stick them in equipment for a rogue (3 helm, 3 armor, 5 bow) when she's still at a relatively low level (5/6 I think), and that will accomodate some very nice poison damage, enough to take out bosses provided you could keep her alive. Then again, I don't remember if that will work in classic.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-26-2004

adeyke,Feb 25 2004, 03:49 AM Wrote:This is incorrect.  There have been throwing potions since the beginning.  They weren't introduced in the expansion.
Well, what I said was "BTW, no throwing potions exist in classic."

In the context of the current discussion this is correct. No throwing potions are currently sold, on ladder classic v1.10, in shops, nor do they drop. You're welcome to investigate this or debate it based on theory, but this is my current experience, from over 100 hours of classic v1.10 ladder play.

That is the context in which I was helpfully making my comment. I am well aware, having playing D2 since v1.00, that things have been different previously.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-26-2004

Wyrm,Feb 26 2004, 04:28 AM Wrote:I know you can get a bunch of jewels of envy ...  Then again, I don't remember if that will work in classic.
Previous guesses are correct, Classic must be used because a sub 20 character can not do Baal under the restriction of one character at a time in a game, which prevents carry-along and thus makes the Ancients interlock actually work.

Jewels don't exist in Classic, sorry. I have quite a collection of D2x v1.10 ladder Envy jewels, but they never got used, because Enchant is just too easy (for me at least, being able to run multiple copies of D2 at once).

All three of you seem to be under various misimpressions as to how the act 2 quest states and interlocks work. For example, admittedly taking fragments somewhat out of context and not being overly helpful explaining them...

"You need to be there for the summoner kill"

"you need to do the 3rd quest (kick the altar) to get to the Arcane Sanctuary."

"Passing a completed act 2 staff to new characters is a relatively simple task. If having the staff (and not completing the related quests) is the requirement for entering the canyon"

The ideas behind all three of these fragments are rather misleading, imo.

I should perhaps qualify my earlier statements a bit and mention that I can also create my Durimule under the same restriction (solo, one CDkey). A Durimule is ultimately a time saver, if one intended to do such rushes often, of course. But it is not a requirement for puzzling out the overall glitches/solutions to the solo-rush problem as posed.

I'll help out a tiny bit with some organizational clarity...

Goal: rush a new character to nightmare (potentially ditto from there to hell and from there onwards, naturally) at low clvl "rapidly" (might be "slow" in some sense... what is meant is "as rapidly as possible" given the constraints). So just finding good/rapid builds that can solo to nm quickly is not the issue/puzzle here.

Constraints: realm (ladder) play, v1.10; one CDkey aka one person; never more than one character in a game; no twinking

(my clvl 8 has not died, iirc, though she is softcore... its been close a couple of times)

Puzzle clues thus far: verification that Classic is used; use of feminine pronoun

"Obvious" questions:
Act advancement past 1, 3, 4 requires a quest act-end boss kill credit, so how is that accomplished?
Act 3 Mephisto is isolated behind an anti-rush lock (on Durance) so how does one get to him efficiently?
Act 2 Tyriel is isolated behind anti-rush locks on Palace/AS and also on Canyon/Tomb/Duriel chamber, so how does one get to him efficiently?
At only one character in a game, TP/Waypoint granting isn't possible, so, in general, how one gets to where one needs to be is an interesting issue of efficiency. What is the obvious general help out M.O. here?

All of these questions have fun (YMMV) or clever (YMMV) answers (IMO).

It is, though, helpful to actually know the exact quest/advancement requirements involved, and there has been widespread confusion on these issues in "rushing" threads. Since it isn't entirely fair to ask someone to puzzle something out when they are confused about the underlying conditions I've tried to make this post as specific as I think I can on these issues without spoiling anything.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Samka - 02-26-2004

Well, you should either confirm or deny my suggestion that you used the solo-muling capabilities on bnet to take a boss down to almost zero HP and then kill with the rushee. I'd guess PMH would be involved here too.

You've also been rather vague on level constraint - do you use a level 6 skill or not? If your method can be used at level 1, then go wolf for extra speed. If level 6, then assassin for BoS. Both using some good low-level bow, maybe gemmed?

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - lemekim - 02-26-2004

10k gold for stamina pots.

A1 - Clear the way to the Andy, and take her to sliver of life. Finish with new character with help of A3 merc (Lightning mercs will be able to use charged bolt even if they are level 1. Cold merc more preferable if you can get one at higher level)

A2 - You can get the parts of staff by clearing the way to them. They are in the chests, so no actual killing required. Clear path through Palace then to Arcane, then clear the Arcane leg with Summoner, and kill Summoner. With the new character, simply walk through empty Arcane and take red TP. Go down to Canyon to get WP, swap and clear the tomb with Rusher. Kill Duriel with Rusher, and the Rushee can simply walk in and talk to Tyrael and move on to next act.

A3 - Make new game with character that has Travincal quest done, the stairs will be open. You can just take them with Rushee to Durance 3, where a properly prepared boss should fall to you (or rather your merc).

A4 - Similar, prepare Diablo and a path to him and finish off with a merc.

I am not sure on two parts there - if you can take the red Arcane TP if you did not kill Summoner (in which case you can prepare him similarly and let merc kill him, thus also granting the knowledge of the tomb sign). I am also not sure if you can just take the stairs in A3 if they are open if you don't have Travincal quest. Otherwise you might need to kill Council similar to boss killing (Which could be tough due to life regeneration). Hopefully I am not too far off with some of my assumptions, as I never attempted anything like this =\

Of course, this could all be done much faster and would be a lot easier if you just made an open game, something like "Act 1 all come", and wait for someone to join, and rush yourself and him together, using the other person as WP/TP holder. =)

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - gekko - 02-26-2004

lemekim,Feb 26 2004, 03:33 AM Wrote:A1 - Clear the way to the Andy, and take her to sliver of life. Finish with new character with help of A3 merc (Lightning mercs will be able to use charged bolt even if they are level 1. Cold merc more preferable if you can get one at higher level)
How can you use an act 3 merc to finish off andy if you haven't beaten act 1 yet?

The stamina potion (either pass gold or stamina pots) is a great idea, since we do have to run all the way from town each time.

Oh, and samka suggested the wolf or assassin skills. I guess I'll be the one to point out this is classic, and neither the druid nor 'sin characters are available.

gekko

ps otherwise, a fairly good idea... I'm curious to know if that is indeed the fastest (or something close to it)

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - 30ftSmurf - 02-26-2004

Salutations Crystalion,

I must admit that your posts on Diablo 2 quest state transition have always intrigued. Finally you've brought me out of what is close to a five year haitus from posting about diablo, whether or not this is a good thing remains to be seen.

I plan on meandering through the various questions posed here providing some food for thought. I may end up posing more questions than I answer (and my answers may be way off the optimal base you are advertising), but such is the nature of an inquisitive mind. Feel free to lend a guiding hand, or to leave questions open to the floor as you see fit. I shall attempt to keep my approach to the problem a close to the one posed as possible: Classic, single char in game, no twink, no waypoints given. However, I fear I may meander off the specifics and entertain some amusing (perhaps only to me) hypotheses.

As is obvious from your posts, there are a couple of subproblems to be dealt with here:
a) State transition itself

This includes some fun problems such as the ability to complete act2 without a single monster kill on the part of the 'rushee' (please forgive any wayward terminology, I shall at least attempt to be consistent within my own post).

State transition can, again, be split up into methods for avoiding the various anti-rush locks but there are also some questions I'll sidetrack onto here concerning how transition works across acts which you may be able to assist with. If my point is not clear here I trust it will be before I finish.

B) Class and skill choices for the rushee.

I spent some time throwing mud until it stuck on this problem last night. I was pleased to find I had reached a similar conclusion to your goodself when I saw your use of the feminine pronoun. I'm not completely convinced I reached exactly the same conclusion as to the best 'finishing skill' and have mused on the significance of your 'throwaway' comment about level 8 being a convenience.

I'm in danger of losing my structure and diving right into some of the problems already, so I'd best get on,,

State Transition
================
I shall take this on in act order, for each act I'd like to look into both the fastest way to complete the act (and thus achieve a potent 'rush) and also enquire as to how each quest can reach completion. I shall name these sections 'Rush' and 'Quest' respectively.

In most cases, unless otherwise specified, I am assuming the game has been started by the rushee (and so any quests required are open). It is, of course, possible to use a rusher who has not completed any quests and progress both through the game symultaneously.

Act 1 - Rush
------------
With no waypoints, one must accept that the rushee will be travelling, by foot (unless wariv is feeling generous) through the entire act - an obvious nit here about my use of 'entire' with so many areas off the beaten track.
Quests 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 need not be completed for a rush. The rusher can map out the route from town to each waypoint to ease the amount of time one must play at one sitting. Indeed, it is useful to at least swap in and out once to allow the rushee to run to the catacombs 2 waypoint (see below).

Access to Act 2 requires an andariel kill whilst the rushee in the game. With one character this means the rushee must make the kill. The solution for this has been suggested at the time I type this: Use the rusher to wittle the boss down to a sliver of life and rejoin with the rushee, go through the catacombs 2 waypoint and head through a cleared route to the weakened andariel. Andariel can be dispatched using a 'finishing skill', these shall be discussed in more depth below.

Act 1 - Quest
-------------
- The Den of Evil
I believe the rushee just has to be present for the last kill in the den. This can be engineered by the rusher, who then leaves the game and lets the rushee join for the final kill (at this stage any class should be fine)

- Bloodraven
The rushee has to be present for the bloodraven kill, and so must make it. This could be amusing with bloodraven's ability to 'revive' minions but should be possible with a similar technique to that used against andariel.
Aside: Does the position of the bloodraven kill matter at all for the quest reward? One would hope not - maybe she can be lured to just outside town for the purposes of the kill (although luring a monster whose AI seems to involve constantly running away is left as an exercise for the reader).

- Cain
The rusher can clear to the stony field and dark wood waypoints. The rushee need not be in the game when the tree is discovered, but can retrieve the scroll from the tree.
Question: If the game is generated with the quest incomplete can the rusher, having completed the quest previously, pick up the scroll? I'd have expected not. The rusher can, of course, also have the quest incomplete and open tristram for the rushee.
Tristram itself is just a case of running the gauntlet to get to cain and hoping one doesn't experience the same fate as the light brigade.

- The Countess
I believe the rushee has to be present for the countess kill, this can be engineered in a similar way to andariel/bloodraven.

- The Malus
The rushee does not have to kill the smith. The rusher can kill all monsters in the barracks and the rushee can use the outer cloister waypoint (previously run to following a route clear by the rusher) to grab the malus. Again, if the rushee also hasn't done the quest this can be sped up (but will then need doing twice if the rusher wants the quest too!)

- Andariel
See above.

Act 2 - Rush
------------
The fun really starts here, as one has rush locks to deal with.
As has been mentioned, a duriel mule can be used to ensure duriel's chamber is open. One can produce one of these by clearing routes to waypoints and to the staff and amulet.

Question: I believe it may actually be possible to create a duriel mule whilst rushing your first character here. Three characters making use of the same game. Here's my proposed scenario:
A. Rushee makes the game and leaves.
B. Rusher clears the way to the cube, staff and the claw viper altar, not kicking the altar. Swapping in and out for waypoints may be done here.
C. Proposed Duriel Mule joins the game and grabs cube & staff before leaving the game.
D. Rushee joins the game and kicks the altar, without picking up the amulet (is this enough to break the lock?)
E. Duriel Mule takes the amulet, creates staff.
F. Rusher joins game, clears palace and arcane, swapping in and out for wps with both other characters. Rusher kills the summoner, rushee and duriel mule walk through arcane, through portal and take canyon wp.
G. Rusher clears correct tomb (both rushee and duriel mule know which it is).
H. Duriel mule goes through canyon wp and opens tomb.
I. Rusher kills duriel.
J. Rushee goes through canyon wp and through tomb, talks to tyrael, jerhyrn and exits the act stage right.
Outcome: One duriel mule primed, one rushee rushed, one rusher smug.

Within my question above I have detailed how to clear the act, just ignore/replace duriel mule segments as appropriate.

Act 2 - Quest
-------------
-Radament
Rushee has to be present for the kill, use a similar tactic to that employed during act 1.

- Gathering the staff
Detailed above.
Aside: I believe the rusher can actually open the chest for the staff (although be unable to pick it up) as the number of quest items that drop from 'quest chests' appears to equal the maximum number of players (without the quest?) who have ever been in the game at one time. I base this purely on observation, having seen 7 cubes drop in a public 'kill andariel' game.
If this is the case, one can use such a trick to obtain multiple copies of the staff in one game by joining large act1 games and farming off quest items to all your act 2 chars (the same will be the case with the quest items in act 3).

- Claw Vipers
Rushee must kick the altar after rusher has cleared the temple.

- Arcane sanctuary.
Rusher clears the palace, rushee enters the arcane sanc (I imagine it doesn't matter who opens the portal to the sanctuary, since one gets this quest when just taking a waypoint in a two player game).

- The Summoner.
It's difficult not to kill the summoner when you're the rusher as he's weak close up, but a sliver technique, as above should work here.

- The seven tombs
Detailed above.

Act 3 - Rush
------------
Standard progression through the act by the rusher, mapping it out, swapping out for waypoints as necessary to ease progression.
If the rusher, having completed quest 5, creates a game and clears durance 1 and 2 the rushee can get the durance 2 waypoint as the entrance from travincal will be open. The rusher could also need all act3 quests, go through the act in its entirety, smash the compelling orb and open the way.
The rusher then clears out durance three and reduces mephisto to a sliver. Rushee joins and 'finishes'.

Act 3 - Quest
-------------
- The golden bird.
One can use a mid level rusher without the quest and engineer the bird drop, or he could reduce a boss to a sliver and let the rushee in for the kill.
Question: This quest is an interesting one, and I have a few questions :)
I've entered act3 with "talk to alkor" as the quest message, and so got the quest without having to kill a single monster myself. I believe this has something to do with the quest being half-completed by another character in a game I am in. If so, this provides a useful tactic for team questing:
Player A in act 2 questing
Player B in act 3
Player B finds the bird, completes up to "talk to alkor" and announces the fact to player A.
Player A exits the game.
Player B completes the quest.
Player A then has the quest at the "talk to alkor" phase in a new game he creates.

Do you have any confirmation on this? Does this happen elsewhere? There are several quests which are "complete" to the point at which other characters cannot complete them before the quest is 'finished'.e.g. if you join a game and someone has rescued cain without talking to him in town you cannot complete the quest. If you are in the game at the same time are the effects different? Can rushing chars help to set up quests to the point at which they are poised just before the final stage of the quest which signals quest completion?
Some other examples to consider:
Is it possible to have a char in act3 leave a char in act 1-2 with 'talk to ormus/ashera' required to complete the gidbinn quest, following a similar tactic to that used above for the golden bird.
Is it possible to have a char in act4 leave a char in act 1-3 with 'talk to tyrael' to clear izual.

- The gidbinn
Aside from the question above, there are some other fun points here.
If the rushee has made the game can the rusher activate the gidbinn and kill the bosspack or does the rushee have to do the activation (and swap out whilst the rushee makes the kill (and if the rushee makes the kill does the boss then drop the gidbinn). I might have to play about with this one myself :)

- Khalim's Will
Similar to the staff above.

- Lam Esen's tome.
Similar to the malus above.

- The blackened temple
I'd hope the rusher could sliver the final council member and the rushee could join and make the kill.

Quest six covered above.

Act 4 - Rush
------------
The rusher is going to have to clear through and swap in and out with the rushee for waypoints. The rusher can then clear the chaos sanctuary and sliver diablo for the rushee to 'finish'.

Act 4 - Quest
-------------
- Izual
Some musings above. Maybe the rushee doesn't have to be around for this kill and can simply talk to izual's spirit? I'd need to look into which of the quest states renders the quest "complete". If the rushee does have to be present, then slivering will work.

- The Hellforge
Similar to the gidbinn above, I'm unsure if the rusher killing hephasto will stop the hammer dropping. My experience when assisting characters to their hellforge quest drops would suggest the rusher can kill if the rushee is in the game. It would fit with chest pops mentioned above if hephasto dropped the hammer for the rusher, but diablo is rarely that simple and one can always sliver here too.

Diablo is covered above.


That covers the quests, if you've read this far you're almost as insane as I :)

Class & Skill Choices
=====================
This actually tickles my interest quite a bit more than alot of the above. I'm curious as to what character you used!
Before you used 'she' I had already decided it was a toss up between the sorceress and the amazon, based on a couple of things.

1. One wants a relatively potent attack available at level 8. This means level 1 or level 6 skills (this is where slipping in 'convenience' has caused me some pain - did you go for a level 6 skill with 3 points or a level 1 with more points?)
2. One would prefer some distance between the rushee and the bosses to avoid death :)
3. One will be too low level to really rely on AR etc. for to-hit, so most forms of physical damage are out.

The classes
-----------
The barbarian just doesn't have a great skill for this by level 8. Bash might be good early on but is probably going to fade out by act 3/4

The paladin also lacks a skill of this nature by level 8. (shame holy bolt is undead only!)

I have a hard time killing andariel at low levels with a necro as it is ;)

This leaves the amazon and the sorceress.

Skill choices
-------------
Some of this depends on how well you can sliver the boss with your rusher. I imagine one can get quite good at this with practice, but I'll not assume that.

The sorceress:
I don't believe the sorceress' lightning or cold trees do enough damage by level 8 to be comfortable. There's a similar problem with fireball.
This leaves warmth (at level 8) and inferno (at level 3) as options.
Of these, warmth won't be killing a boss anytime soon.
Inferno does reasonable damage per sec at level 3 and I'd love to think you decided to hose down enemies using this. Boss fire resistances in normal aren't too high so this should be possible. It is a bit close range, though, so I'm loathe to choose it. (YMMV)

The Amazon:
I don't believe the bow skills are up for this, and the passives are not much use either (though one could apply some points to critical strike if using a level 6 skill). This leaves the low level javalin skills.
Jab at level 8 just isn't that potent, and requires being up close and personal.
So this leaves Poison Javelin and Power Strike, both at level 3. Power strike does 1-52 lit dmg, Poison javelin does 75-93 over time.
I think I'll go with poison javelin as it can be used from range, although it does take some time to deal damage.


Well, that's about all I've got for now. I could ramble on with more questions I think, but I'll pause for breath.

Thanks for providing a problem with answers that, from the above, could not be contained in a page margin ;)

Kind Regards,
+=30ft-Smurf=+

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-26-2004

Samka,Feb 26 2004, 08:09 AM Wrote:Well, you should either confirm or deny my suggestion that you used the solo-muling capabilities on bnet to take a boss down to almost zero HP and then kill with the rushee. I'd guess PMH would be involved here too.
I "should"?! Okay, if you say so ;) (some minor spoilers follow)...

I could do what I'm doing all the way through hell. There are some kills I must make for which "auto-hit" is convenient. There is one kill I must make that is hard (being vague... you should be able to state which and why). It is indeed the case that the kills are I must make are conveniently on the brink of death already. I'm still being vague because your "guess" is not allowed... you must think it through and *know* (to receive "full credit" at least :P )

Quote:You've also been rather vague on level constraint - do you use a level 6 skill or not? If your method can be used at level 1, then go wolf for extra speed. If level 6, then assassin for BoS. Both using some good low-level bow, maybe gemmed?
clvl 8 is a convenience, clvl 6 would have done. If you correctly answer the puzzle I refused to spell out in the last paragraph you'd know exactly why I've been vague (i.e. the "level requirement" is an epiphenomenon, not a requirement per se--that is it is not a "constraint" but a consequence).

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-26-2004

lemekim,Feb 26 2004, 08:33 AM Wrote:10k gold for stamina pots.
Well, my friend is fond of saying that in D2 "money rains from heaven" so money for stamina potions is not a problem. I didn't twink anything, including cash. I do indeed find stamina potions to be very helpful.

Quote:A1 - Clear the way to the Andy, and take her to sliver of life. Finish with new character with help of A3 merc
Well, since we know we're in classic, this can't fly (hirelings don't transit between acts--indeed they permanently disappear if you merely leave the act yourself). Even in D2x this wouldn't work, in normal, because you've not passed Andy yet so you can't have gotten to act 3 to hire a merc. It is indeed fun, though, to rush a clvl 1 to act 3 and hire them a lightning (charged bolt) merc and go back to act 1.

Quote:A2 - You can get the parts of staff by clearing the way to them. They are in the chests, so no actual killing required.
Yes indeed. Creating a Duriel Mule so you don't have to do this over each time is not hard, procedurally, even with solo constraint. If this were a general rushing thread I'd probably explain why my preferred Duriel mule state is "better" than what anyone else has published, that I've read--maybe some other time.

Quote:Clear path through Palace then...talk to Tyrael and move on to next act.
Close, very close. The rusher can't kill Duriel unless either the rushee has placed the staff or you're using a Durimule. In the latter case, of course, the Durimule had to place the staff (and you can make such a mule solo, as I've mentioned). I know what you meant, but someone following your procedure like a recipe might have gotten "stuck" on this point. Further details abound here, such as providing the load of a horadric cube for the combine.

Quote:A3 - Make new game with character that has Travincal quest done, the stairs will be open. You can just take them with Rushee to Durance 3, where a properly prepared boss should fall to you (or rather your merc).
Nice try, but the interlock prevents the character from descending the (open) stairs. You raise this question later along with excellent points that I will not further spoil here.

Quote:A4 - Similar, prepare Diablo and a path to him and finish off with a merc.
Close. He'll reset to full HPs by subzone processing collapse if you do it this way. This is a technical point, so I'll "spoil" it... essentially, if you visit too many zones, old zones get fully collapsed, and any injured monster there will be recreated at full HPs when you go back. So the addition here is: clear to RoF waypoint with rusher; rushee takes wp; rusher clears to D & preps; rushee warps to RoF and walks in to finish.

Quote:I am not sure on two parts there - if you can take the red Arcane TP if you did not kill Summoner
Indeed, as I pointed out in beta, that portal is not restricted, of itself. BTW, killing the summoner has nothing to do with knowledge of the TToTR, which is, instead, triggered by reading Horazon's journal.

Quote:Hopefully I am not too far off with some of my assumptions, as I never attempted anything like this =\
Well, if you enjoy warping your mind this way, and play chess at all, you might look up Raymond Smullyan's chess puzzle books (Sherlock Holmes, Arabian Knight's). He is a logician (and friend of Martin Gardner, the infamous Mathematical Games columnist once upon a time for Scientific American). The puzzles are not traditional chess puzzles at all, but rather challenges in inductive reasoning. (Yes, I meant to say "inductive", not "deductive").

Quote:Of course, this could all be done much faster and would be a lot easier if you just made an open game, something like "Act 1 all come", and wait for someone to join, and rush yourself and him together, using the other person as WP/TP holder. =)
Very true. But some folks think there is merit in learning to start a fire by rubbing sticks together for reasons wholely apart from actually ever intending to start fires in that manner. I offered this "challenge" in that spirit. Hope you're enjoying it.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Crystalion - 02-27-2004

30ftSmurf,Feb 26 2004, 09:35 PM Wrote:I must admit that your posts on Diablo 2 quest state transition have always intrigued. Finally you've brought me out of what is close to a five year haitus from posting about diablo, whether or not this is a good thing remains to be seen.
Oh dear, oh my. Here I am, off playing Spellforce, and I'm de-lurking a long time lurker back into D2land? Tsk, tsk, I should have been more careful with my teasers! "Get well soon" is all I can say ;)

Quote:This includes some fun problems such as the ability to complete act2 without a single monster kill on the part of the 'rushee'
Indeed... act 2 has the most complexity in quest transitions that are relevant for passing through, and yet--a supreme irony!--"properly" rushed the rushee may well never even *see* a monster in act 2. :D

Quote:I was pleased to find I had reached a similar conclusion to your goodself when I saw your use of the feminine pronoun.
Well, unless adeyke renews his assualt and convinces me I've been snowblind about throwing potions (I've said they do not presently seem to exist in classic) I am convinced that there is only one truly good all-around answer as low as clvl 6. Other answers mostly work, but I wanted an answer that would work even in act 3 hell (technically at clvl 6, though, as I say, I prefer 8... after all, if you were going to really do this on a regular basis, you'd likely want to bump from 6 to 8 anyway, to qualify to claim the weenie imbue).

Quote:It is, of course, possible to use a rusher who has not completed any quests and progress both through the game symultaneously.
Ah, Ruvanal sleaze solo! What an amusing idea. (Ruvanal is famous for pointing out that carry-along offers "free" benefits for the taking to people "just doing what you would do normally"). I was actually assuming that, aside from proving this whole thing is possible, you'd want to make it repeatable at high speed ("high" relative to the solo constraints, of course). This implies understanding making a Durimule (solo) and which class/skills work "best" for the rusher as well. But I didn't actually insist on that in posing the problem, so the "Ruvanal"-esque solution is quite amusing.

Quote:With no waypoints, one must accept that the rushee will be travelling, by foot (unless wariv is feeling generous) through the entire act - an obvious nit here about my use of 'entire' with so many areas off the beaten track.
Indeed. This is why, now that I'm home from my trip and can run multiple simul copies of D2, that I abandoned the project in nightmare... walking and walking and walking ain't much fun. The Daggerfall/Might&Magic style games where you can pay for a coach or ship ride "instantly" to your destination, instead of walking, would be quite appealing here. In practice people play together and grant waypoints and TPs, so its not a problem.

Quote:The rusher can map out the route from town to each waypoint to ease the amount of time one must play at one sitting.
Very true. Since we're talking early act 1 though, and I did plan to make clvl 8, I pretty much just played "normally" (though focused on travel and bypassing the Den of Evil etc.) as the rushee to get to the Outer Cloister waypoint. I'd initially thought I might need to have the rusher clear the Underground Passage but that wasn't an issue after all. So really my "rush" only starts at this point, in terms of using a rusher.

Quote:Indeed, it is useful to at least swap in and out once to allow the rushee to run to the catacombs 2 waypoint (see below).
Yes, as I noted in another reply, you can't have long marches opening up zones and then still expect a monster to be nearly dead when you finally show up (if the zone is fully closed down the monster will be recreated with full HPs, even if they are a "doesn't regen" act boss).

Quote:Access to Act 2 requires an andariel kill whilst the rushee in the game.  With one character this means the rushee must make the kill.
Actually I questioned this back in the days when I didn't know which finesse Ruvanal was referring to but keeping hush-hush. In D1 terms players occupy a 0..3 "slot" and players leaving and coming in could actually have some odd attribution effects. I wasn't certain D2 might not suffer the same quirk in some cases. However, atm, I suspect the anti-unfair-PvP tweaks to the game remove most if not all of the latitude for playing with this (poison, open wounds, rabies, etc.) Did you know, for example, that you get credit for your Rabies kills from asymetric PvP (i.e. faux foe) tranmission to monsters? In any event, this area of technical oddity is *not* part of the challenge, and we may assume your statement is true, even if it turns out that it can be violated.

Quote: The solution for this has been suggested at the time I type this: Use the rusher to wittle the boss down to a sliver of life and rejoin with the rushee, go through the catacombs 2 waypoint and head through a cleared route to the weakened andariel.  Andariel can be dispatched using a 'finishing skill'
There is also the issue of "whittling skill" as it is inconvenient to either kill the quest mob or leave them with more HPs than the rushee finishing skill can readily cope with.

Quote:The Den of Evil: I believe the rushee just has to be present for the last kill in the den.
The Den of Evil, the "kill the doors" act 5 prisoner quest, and the act 3 Council all involve multiple kills, of which the final kill is the only one that matters. Likely this is true for the Ancients as well, should one choose to test the principle by fighting them unpartied, for example.

Quote:Does the position of the bloodraven kill matter at all for the quest reward?  One would hope not - maybe she can be lured to just outside town...
I strongly suspect that she is like Diablo, and will not move past a certain point. I've never tried pulling a Council member back to the Kurast Docks, so I don't know how far you might be able to herd that quest kill. Certainly bone walls and telekinesis might be fun to toy with here... for example, if telekinesis works on BloodRaven, since she doesn't regen, could you have Flavie kill her?!

Quote:If the game is generated with the quest incomplete can the rusher, having completed the quest previously, pick up the scroll?
iirc a non-qualifying character can neither drop the scroll by touching the tree, nor can they pick the scroll up.

As long as the rushee is clvl 8+ a rusher that hasn't given the Malus to Charsi can bring one to town for the rushee to hand to Charsi, Making that one of the easiest rushes in the game, from some point of view.

Quote:Andariel: See above.
Even on the verge of Death, Andarial outputs serious damage. One would like to nail her for sure rapidly, preferably (for style points in softcore, but mandatory in Hardcore) nailing her without dying. Once you get to doing this gig in hell, the clvl/mlvl factor is huge, so anything relying on to-hit is not a great idea.

Quote:Question: I believe it may actually be possible to create a duriel mule whilst rushing your first character here.  Three characters making use of the same game.
It is most certainly possible to create Durimules on the fly, as I've done so a couple of times at need. The solo constraint doesn't hinder this significantly.

Quote:I believe the rusher can actually open the chest for the staff (although be unable to pick it up)
iirc two completely different quest state interlocks are vying here. If the game quest state allows the viper chest to be opened, then any character that has not completed the restore-the-sun quest can open the chest. However only characters that have not completed the place staff quest can pick up staff pieces. When you complete the act you are granted credit for placing the staff, iirc (and for killing Duriel, as shown by his doorway to Tyriel being open). This is similar to the backfill in act 3 done on khalim's squishy quest. Some of these backfills actually delete (quest) items from your inventory. Nonetheless, it is occasionally possible to find yourself in possession of a quest item such that, if you drop it, you will not be able to pick it back up.

Quote:I believe the rusher can actually open the chest for the staff (although be unable to pick it up) as the number of quest items that drop from 'quest chests' appears to equal the maximum number of players (without the quest?) who have ever been in the game at one time.
afaik this is run off of the game state: if a player who is allowed to pop the chest (staff/amu) or kill a council member (flail, horcube), etc. etc., then the total count in game of people "live" for the quest *drop* is counted. However "live" is generally restricted to party members. In large public games people often habitually all party up, even though they aren't adventuring together. So the issue is deterministic but rather opaque, having several considerations. In any event, were Durimules not effectively "infinite" horstaves, one could indeed "farm" them for efficiency.

You have some implied fuzziness on the interlocks for the Palace/AS. I suppose I'll have to write up my Durimule sometime to attempt, once again, (but in one post) to clear up some of these issues. Once you have my Durimule one of the things you can do is to take a new entrant to act2 and just walk through the act. Before they talk to Tyriel you can load the game with a lot of party members in act 2 and carry them all along, "instantly" as well. While there are many ways to accelerate act 2, in practice this method is very clean, depending mostly only on rusher speed of finding/clearing in AS/TToTR. The known path down clearing the palace is typically a cakewalk, taking no time to speak of for an appropriate rusher build.

Quote:It's difficult not to kill the summoner when you're the rusher as he's weak close up, but a sliver technique, as above should work here.
In classic, apart from monsters that start with only one HP, Static Field does not accidentally kill, and takes mobs down to as little as 1 HP. Regen or recreate-at-full-HPs and whether you really need to kill the mob in question are relevant. But the basic gig is to serve up any non-lightning-immune on a silver platter.

Quote:If the rusher, having completed quest 5, creates a game and clears durance 1 and 2 the rushee can get the durance 2 waypoint as the entrance from travincal will be open.
As I noted in a prior reply, the way will be open, but the rusher will not be able to descend. I will relent enough to say that no, I did not collect Khalim's body parts for the rush, and then go back to keeping mum, to avoid spoiling it.

The Golden Bird is an odd case, and your post and mine are dangerously long, so I'll leave that discussion for another thread. The Tome of Lam Esen is trivial. The Gidbinn is amusing because the rushee must trigger the mob afaik (rusher will not be able to touch the object, iirc) but once the mob is alive, the rushee can bail and come back to retrieve the dagger dropped after the rusher either softened or killed the bugger. Leading him to a waypoint makes sense if only softened, from the regen angle. I've done the Lam Esen, of course, just for grins. The other has the technical issues you bring up, and I'd have to try it to be sure which answer is requisite.

Quote:Maybe the rushee doesn't have to be around for this kill and can simply talk to izual's spirit?
There is actually, afaik, a Ruvanalesque transition there, that is transient. So you raise an interesting point, but I suspect there is a timing dependancy. Slivering does indeed work. (Again, I did it for grins).

Quote:I'm unsure if the rusher killing hephasto will stop the hammer dropping.
Whether the hammer drops when he is killed pertains to the game state. One solution is to simply not have your rusher have claimed his/her HF rewards (ala the Malus comments earlier). There are other solutions.

Quote:That covers the quests, if you've read this far you're almost as insane as I :)
No, I'm far worse, because I did the "solo" thinking on top of what I already knew (successfully in practice, and not just in theory) about rushing purely for grins, and wasted some of my vacation time proving that I was correct. Still you get high marks for a post of crystalionesque verbosity, congrats! ;)


Quote:Before you used 'she' I had already decided it was a toss up between the sorceress and the amazon, based on a couple of things.
Also, were we not in classic, "she" would apply to Assassin Fire Blast and Wake of Fire, which are truly awesome finishers (clvl 1, clvl 12) vs. non-fire-immunes.

Quote:1. One wants a relatively potent attack available at level 8.
I was greedy, I wanted a clvl 1 auto-hit attack. Fire Bolt, Teeth and Smite all qualify. But eventually I realized AoE and psuedo-PMH were just too important in practice, esp. for the one truly hard kill (remember that my standards extend to hell, and by then it should be obvious what the only awful kill required is).

Quote:I think I'll go with poison javelin as it can be used from range, although it does take some time to deal damage.
Hmm, AoE auto-hit, decent damage per clvl, psuedo-PMH, nah, that couldn't be it. Even Slivered and making use of the regen turn-off quirk (you can easily manipulate a zone so that a monster stops regenning by leaving and coming back appropriately) you'll see regen start again as soon as the mob is damaged. This means any damage delivered that doesn't coup de grace must also stop regen. A hell Council member at 1 HP who is clvl 91 with ~90k HPs possible is hard "to-hit" and regens insanely, not to mention that he can lifesteal if you take so long as to be within his grasp. You must nail him, auto-hit, you must keep away from him at all times, you must not allow him to regen. None of this is tough, given a reasonable level character or gear. Doing it at clvl 6 is rather extraordinary. Clvl 8 is just for convenience (damage/duration, 30 more HPs to survive dinks).

Quote:Thanks for providing a problem with answers that, from the above, could not be contained in a page margin  ;)

Kind Regards,
+=30ft-Smurf=+
Efficiently doing two human multi-CDkey rushing was even more of a mental challenge. Ferengi picked up on some things I posted in Beta and we actually worked out and proved a powerful "system" for nm/H HF rushing in release ladder practice. He had to bail about a month ago (IRL issues) and I pretty much stopped playing at that time. It was all for the sake of science ;) so now I find myself procrastinating on whether to organize and give away my vast wealth, or just let it rot. :D If it hadn't been for duping we'd have been, I suppose, wealthier for time invested than any "normally lucky" person who wasn't a bot runner.

For the record, since I've been and continue to be mum about most of this, it was Ferengi's inspiration *months* ago, to explore classic for Ancients bypass. That works, of course. Ultimately I came up with a process efficiency argument for doing a hybrid of classic-no-ancients/LoD-with-Ancients rushing, but that justification is way more complicated than would fit "in the margins".

The short of it is just as my friend says, "in Diablo money rains from the sky"... its merely knowing where to run around, holding a bucket to catch it. Shared knowledge and teamwork is invaluable. Much like real life.

Glad you enjoyed the puzzle. I enjoyed reading your post (especially parts that I didn't quote back!)

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Ruvanal - 02-27-2004

30ftSmurf:
Quote:- Gathering the staff
Detailed above.
Aside: I believe the rusher can actually open the chest for the staff (although be unable to pick it up) as the number of quest items that drop from 'quest chests' appears to equal the maximum number of players (without the quest?) who have ever been in the game at one time. I base this purely on observation, having seen 7 cubes drop in a public 'kill andariel' game.

For the staff and amulet, the number dropped is equal to the number of players in the a game that have not done that the Horadric Staff quest yet and needs that part. So if the rusher opens the maggot queens chest while being the only one in the game there will be no staff. The alter can only be activated by a character that has not yet completed the 'Tainted Sun' quest and you will only get 1 amulet for each character currently in the game that has not done that the Horadric Staff quest yet and needs that part.

The chest in the Halls of the Dead (or travical council member) will drop 1 cube for each character in the game that does not currently have one. If you drop your cube on the ground before opening the chest, then it will count your character as needing one also. An interesting way to 'mine' some extra cubes if everyone in the game would drop their cubes before the chest is opened.

Quote:QUOTE 
A3 - Make new game with character that has Travincal quest done, the stairs will be open. You can just take them with Rushee to Durance 3, where a properly prepared boss should fall to you (or rather your merc). /quote
Nice try, but the interlock prevents the character from descending the (open) stairs. You raise this question later along with excellent points that I will not further spoil here.
Actually any character can go down these stairs if they are open reguardless of if they have completed the council quest. I have done it many time with characters that have not done the quest already.

An important note on just what the new 'interlock on quests' is doing, it will only prevent the character from taking town portals (blue) into the restricted areas if the portal does not belong to the character in question. The player can take a red portal or waypoint or their own tp into one of these areas without restriction.

The problem that players are having in the LoD game with the Arreat Summit access to the World Stone Keep is a hard coded check for that area from prior to v1.10. It is not due to the 'new' interlock system.

Quote:Well, unless adeyke renews his assualt and convinces me I've been snowblind about throwing potions (I've said they do not presently seem to exist in classic) ...
The throwing potions will not drop in D2C (confirming your point). Curious though, have you seen any of the Poison Shrines or Exploding Shrines? My short run in testing did not show any eve though I would have usually seen 2 to 4 in the amount of area that the test character covered. Also it looked like there may have been a dispropotionate number of Experience Shrines around, but the sample size was too small to be sure if they were replacing the missing shrines or just that they are one of the more prevalent shrines if you take those two out the possible shrines.

Also a side note on that testing, forcing a monster to try to drop the throwing potions only resulted in their droping Long Swords (low, normal, hiq and socketed) intead. Also the TC in question had unique=1024 (drops would normally be unique or x3 durability rares) which makes the quality of the drops even more unusual. :blink: Other weapons included in the drop did come out as failed uniques.

Quote:afaik this is run off of the game state: if a player who is allowed to pop the chest (staff/amu) or kill a council member (flail, horcube), etc. etc., then the total count in game of people "live" for the quest *drop* is counted. However "live" is generally restricted to party members. In large public games people often habitually all party up, even though they aren't adventuring together. So the issue is deterministic but rather opaque, having several considerations. In any event, were Durimules not effectively "infinite" horstaves, one could indeed "farm" them for efficiency.
For the staff pieces, the nmber dropped is for all the character in the game that need the parts, partied or not.

For the flail pieces it is a little different. You can have the squishy pieces dropping even for characters that have completed the quest, but I do not recall if they need to be in the party or not. I have on many occasions helped some players through these areas and could see that the number dropped also included one for my character even though I had long before completed all of the act 3 quests. IIRC, the flail only drops for the number of characters that actually need it to complete the quest. Nice and inconsistent is not?

Quote:QUOTE 
Maybe the rushee doesn't have to be around for this kill and can simply talk to izual's spirit? /QUOTE
There is actually, afaik, a Ruvanalesque transition there, that is transient. So you raise an interesting point, but I suspect there is a timing dependancy. Slivering does indeed work. (Again, I did it for grins).
Yes there is a timing issue in that the spirit will quickly dissappear if there are no characters that stay near it. Besides the quest will show as not possible if the character was not near or partied in 'town' with character that needed to get credit that was present for the defeat. But I have seen some quests that are listed this way and can still be completed (A2Q6 for example), so I do not hold this to a firm restriction without further testing.

Single cd-key solo play Ladder HF rushing works - Chesspiece_face - 02-27-2004

Quote:have you seen any of the Poison Shrines or Exploding Shrines?

I've haven't played D2 for a couple years now and didn't know the lounge was back up! woot.

But regarding the question I've been playing classic cause i need to get my expansion back from a friend. I just got a poison shrine earlier today and it worked just like they used to. pumped out the poison and dropped about 9 potions.

Edit: I only saw one in the last 3 days of playing though.