Pirates me hearties, pirates!

[--Pete]

Hi,

I thought that the pirate thing was cool and funny when I first heard about it. haha people trying to be pirates again.

You can thank your local news outlets for this misconception. It's not 'pirates again'. Piracy has been practiced continuously since antiquity. Recently, most of it was around South East Asia. It didn't make the news much because those pirates mostly focused on private vessels.

--Pete

[Kevin]

It hasn't been "ever expanding". There were a remarkable series of experiments in Athens over two millenia ago, followed by a somewhat-better mostly-worse Rome, followed by a thousand years of unfreedom. Now, sure, we've done pretty well in the last few hundred years, and the Islamic world has not. But, in the biggest of pictures going all the way back to ancient times, that's pretty recent, whereas the cultural and geographical unit of "the West" (well, Europe, really) is not recent.

-Jester

It's also tricky in that some of the ideals aren't just Western either. While it hasn't all survived, Hammurabi and Babylon date back to 1760 BC. Socrates, who Pete mentioned was was 469 BC. The Athenian democracy was 510 BC for the founding. The Babylonian empire didn't survive and shrank continually after Hammurabi died, but the Hittites and Kassites who conquered the region did adopt much of the philosophy of the rule of law. There were even provisions for trials in the code. That speaks to personal freedoms as well, if not to democracy and some of the other "Western" philosophical ideals.

How much were the Greeks actually influenced by Middle Eastern ideals that predate Islam is a question that can muddy this whole thing even more.

My original point in getting involved in this tangent was to clarify definitions, that I realize are muddy. At this point I think I can follow what Kan, Pete, and Jester all mean when they say Western (though Jester doesn't want to use the term at all). So I'm good.

But it's an interesting tangent so I'm willing to drive it a little deeper and hence this post. :)

As mentioned my history isn't the best. It was knowledge that I never received as a "package" and just got bits and pieces of from various sources so I'm enjoying tying some of those strings back together. :)

[--Pete]

Hi,

As mentioned my history isn't the best. It was knowledge that I never received as a "package" and just got bits and pieces of from various sources so I'm enjoying tying some of those strings back together. :)

History never much interested me in school. It was presented as a collection of factoids (names, dates, events) that needed to be memorized and regurgitated on demand. Reading the text was ruined because we had to 'outline' it (and about half our grade depended on that outline), a task I found unproductive (I have a memory) and boring. And, though I didn't know it at the time, what I was exposed to was more 'southern, American, Catholic propaganda' than it was unbiased (right;)) history. It wasn't till I developed a taste for historical ('hysterical' according to my history educated friends) novels that I developed a taste for history. At first it was just researching some tidbit from a novel, but it became an interest in itself.

From what I've heard from those presently enduring it, the teaching of history hasn't changed much in the interim. Sad, that such a fascinating topic is taught so poorly.

--Pete

[Tal]

From what I've heard from those presently enduring it, the teaching of history hasn't changed much in the interim. Sad, that such a fascinating topic is taught so poorly.

--Pete

I was a history major in college. Our department head always felt that memorizing dates was counter intuitive to teaching the what where and how of history - after all you could go and look up exact dates anytime you needed to. Otherwise you were expected to know the'lay of the land' so to speak for when something happened but were expected to be able to discuss, at length, what we know of how events came to unfold on demand. As you can imagine - it lead, for me, to a fuller knowledge of history. My classmates mileage may vary.;)

[Jester]

Well, I'm studying economic history.

Whether that inspires or scares you, is a matter or taste, and of opinion. :lol:

-Jester

[ShadowHM]

Well, I'm studying economic history.

Whether that inspires or scares you, is a matter or taste, and of opinion. :lol:

-Jester

*grins*

I studied economic history. It *was* a while ago, but it still colours how I perceive any news today. Why was a lot more interesting than when. :P

[kandrathe]

It also disrupts Islamic nations' trade. The pirates are, well, pirates, not Islamists. They prey on everyone they think they can make a buck from. Westerners pay ransoms, so they get high priority, but they're hardly picky about it.

I notice that Yemani ships have been attacked twice over the last ten years, and in both cases the ship was released without ransom.

Now, sure, we've done pretty well in the last few hundred years, and the Islamic world has not.

I was really only thinking of the last few hundred years, rather than the time between the fall of the Roman Empire, and the age of enlightenment which we call the Dark Ages (with good reason).

[Jester]

I notice that Yemani ships have been attacked twice over the last ten years, and in both cases the ship was released without ransom.

I also notice a couple UAE ships, a Malaysian ship, a few Iranian ships, Egyptian ships, Turkish ships, Jordanian ships, Saudi ships, Lebanese ships... if they're sparing the Islamic nations, they're doing a pretty poor job of it.

-Jester

[Kevin]

I notice that Yemani ships have been attacked twice over the last ten years, and in both cases the ship was released without ransom.I was really only thinking of the last few hundred years, rather than the time between the fall of the Roman Empire, and the age of enlightenment which we call the Dark Ages (with good reason).

Take a look at April 5, 2009. There is a Yemani ship currently still captured. It may be released without ransom again, but it might not. There is an Iranian ship being held right now, and there was another Iranian ship captured and released but they are still holding the captain for ransom. Two Egyptian boats being held right now and there was another Egyptian boat released but the captain is also still being held.

So yeah, I don't think they are sparing Islamic nations.

[kandrathe]

You can thank your local news outlets for this misconception. It's not 'pirates again'. Piracy has been practiced continuously since antiquity. Recently, most of it was around South East Asia. It didn't make the news much because those pirates mostly focused on private vessels.

Don't forget about the pirates of the Caribbean, or rather the drug smugglers who seize the boat, kill the people on board then use the ship for drug smuggling before scuttling it.

[Nastie_Bowie]

personally, I would rather we deploy the seals, rangers, or whatever tactical people we have. Kill the pirates, get the vessel back.

Rinse and repeat.

1 of 2 things will happen.

1.) Somalian people will realize that piracy sucks, and search for fixes to the problem either internally or externally.
2.) we kill all the somalians.....
I thought that the pirate thing was cool and funny when I first heard about it. haha people trying to be pirates again. Then I realized that this wasn't some movie, and it was pretty crazy. Kill em, capture em, hang em, just make it evident that piracy comes with a very steep price. Eventually the price will be too high.

Amen!

:)

My money is on Number 1. The only reason they are doing it is it is easy money. Send in the carriers and the napalm.

[eppie]

Amen!

:)

My money is on Number 1. The only reason they are doing it is it is easy money. Send in the carriers and the napalm.

Yeah that seems liek a great idea. There are marine ships of many countries patrolling the area, what if they see a vessel from some country they don't like? Destroy it and later tell everybody that they were pirates? Let's keep the discussion realistic.
I do see that there are major problems however. A dutch ship captured to pirate boats last week, and both times that had to release the pirates (and it was clear they were guilty) because there was no legal way they could hold them.


The international community should now hurry and decide on some laws that make it possible that these people can be captured and then trialed. But what to do then? You can't put them in prison in Somalia (to unstable) and if you put them in prison a few years in a western country they will probably try to stay there illegaly after they are released......for these people western type prisons are an improvement compared to their normal living standards.

[kandrathe]

The international community should now hurry and decide on some laws that make it possible that these people can be captured and then tried. But what to do then? You can't put them in prison in Somalia (to unstable) and if you put them in prison a few years in a western country they will probably try to stay there illegally after they are released... ...for these people western type prisons are an improvement compared to their normal living standards.

Maybe we should just sink their boats and drop them off with the Yemani or Ethiopian authorities then.

[Ashock]

Maybe we should just sink their boats and drop them off with rocks around their necks.

Fixed.