Pirates me hearties, pirates!

[kandrathe]

I believe it is time to show the Somali pirates the USA's better side. Sure, some people wince at the thought of confronting those scurvy buggers, but it's time to say "Damn the AK-47's! Four bells. Cmdr. Castellano, go ahead! doggy, full speed!"



I'd say a few dozen of these babies patrolling up and down their coast with the occasional broadside for effect would help.

Pirates yell "Arggggggg, blast ye devil dogs."

I bet the Port of Eyl pales in comparison to the Caribbean Port Royal. No rum, no sweet bonny lasses, and no revelry till wee hours of the morn.

[librarian]

Heiho,

sure thing, bomb all of Somalia away. We've all seen in the recent past what good this'll do.

For anyone interested
http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news6585.php

[--Pete]

Hi,

sure thing, bomb all of Somalia away. We've all seen in the recent past what good this'll do.

Mostly, it's their country, their internal problems. As far as I'm concerned, they can either get some civilization or they can kill each other till there's none left. Either way, problem solved.

But when they start messing with other nations and their shipping, then that part of it becomes the world's problem. Piracy has its risks. So bomb them, torpedo them, machine-gun them. And if any should be captured, hang them -- right there, right then.

Sunken ships and dead pirates means no more piracy.

--Pete

[Drasca]

Piracy has its risks. So bomb them, torpedo them, machine-gun them. And if any should be captured, hang them -- right there, right then.

Sunken ships and dead pirates means no more piracy.

'Course, their own people might hang them if they fear Navy will blow them up. Really though, it takes an order from the President to actually attack these guys. Down my grapevine, a lot of fellow current active duty sailor are very very very very very frustrated over tailing and not being allowed to shoot down these pirates, and after seeing very clear evidence against them. We can't shoot them!?? Why not?! Just follow, and follow and follow. Not about ability, even a regular watchstander with a M16 can take these pirates with RPGs down, more about permission than anything else.

I'm ecstatic to hear about the headshots against the pirates. Certain fools need to be taken down before they become more trouble to everyone else.

[[wcip]Angel]

I read an article stating that these pirates and others are disenfranchised fisherman who have lost their livelihood due to huge commercial companies invading their terrirotory and stealing all their fish. To avoid starvation, they turn to local warlords (who basically control the country) who supply them with weapons and order them to take control of foreign-owned ships. When the pirates get their payday, these warlords take a large chunk of the 'loot', while letting their pirates keep enough to make it worth while. In so doing, the warlords create a dependency on this type of work, thus continuing the cycle.

This is what I read.

It was published in a Norwegian newspaper, but I'm sure if the story holds true, it should also be available in international news media as well.

Assuming it is true, would it be so outrageous to expect the international community to help alleviate this situation in Somalia rather than bombard the country to pieces? Not looking to justify the callous and criminal actions of pirates, but if they're not responsible for their own misery, are we then morally in the right in condemning and killing them?

[--Pete]

Hi,

I read an article stating that these pirates and others are disenfranchised fisherman . . .

The soviet union rolled over and played dead in the late '80s. The physics technology group (read 'weapons') at Boeing went from over 400 people down to 20. As far as I know, none of those unemployed scientists, engineers, and technicians took up bank robbery. Instead, they found other jobs. That's how it is done in civilized countries.

. . . they turn to local warlords . . .

Yep. Ignorant, primitive, tribal people living in the stone age with 20th century weapons. They gladly accept the lethal products of Western civilization, but not the Western mentality that, to some extent, mitigates the danger of those products. Concepts such as loyalty beyond the tribe, justice, democracy, etc. are totally foreign to them. As usual, the people get the government they deserve.

It was published in a Norwegian newspaper, but I'm sure if the story holds true, it should also be available in international news media as well.

The truth of the story doesn't matter. Even if it is true, it doesn't excuse their actions. And, especially if it is true, then it is a strong argument for invasion.

Assuming it is true, would it be so outrageous to expect the international community to help alleviate this situation in Somalia rather than bombard the country to pieces?

Right. Leaving aside the morality of invading a country to 'fix' its internal problems (something I abhor but my government seems to like), just why do you think this problem can be fixed from the outside? Short of taking over the country and running it as a subdued colony, what do you propose be done. Point any case in the last hundred years where justice, decency, democracy have been successfully imposed on a nation.

Not looking to justify the callous and criminal actions of pirates, but if they're not responsible for their own misery, are we then morally in the right in condemning and killing them?

We aren't condemning them and killing them because of their misery, but because of the solution they chose to alleviate their misery.

--Pete

[Jester]

They gladly accept the lethal products of Western civilization, but not the Western mentality that, to some extent, mitigates the danger of those products.

When asked what he thought of "Western Civilization," Gandhi is purported to have replied "I think it would be a good idea." Probably apocryphal, but rather pointed.

How many tens of millions have "Westerners" killed with these weapons, notwithstanding their mitigating "Western mentality"?

-Jester

[kandrathe]

How many tens of millions have "Westerners" killed with these weapons, notwithstanding their mitigating "Western mentality"?

About the same number as the easterners.

[kandrathe]

sure thing, bomb all of Somalia away. We've all seen in the recent past what good this'll do.

For anyone interested
http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news6585.php

Oh,no. I saw Black Hawk Down, this time we just shoot the bad guys with cannons (and maybe cruise missiles and lasers).

[Jester]

About the same number as the easterners.

Not that I doubt the history of the "East" is every bit as blood-drenched as anywhere else, but, to whom are you referring when you say "Easterners"?

(For that matter, to whom is anyone referring when they say "Westerners"? But that's an age old debate.)

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . to whom are you referring when you say "Easterners"?

New York, Connecticut, Virginia, Gawgah (both of them), and the rest of them 'right coast' states.

For that matter, to whom is anyone referring when they say "Westerners"?

Washington, Oregon, California. Maybe Hawaii. Alaska, I think, was misplaced -- easy to get lost in the Great Northern Waste. Some would include Idaho, but that's kinda Easterly. I'd limit it to Pacific, American, and Palin free.

:w00t:

In the words of Justice Stewart, "I know it when I see it."

But, kidding aside, if your culture's philosophy doesn't trace back to Socrates, then it ain't Western. Eastern? Too broad, too many cultures. Some are superior, some inferior (and I use the yardstick in *my* pocket to measure that, it's demarcated only with rationals -- no irrationals nor imaginaries need apply).

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

Not that I doubt the history of the "East" is every bit as blood-drenched as anywhere else, but, to whom are you referring when you say "Easterners"?

(For that matter, to whom is anyone referring when they say "Westerners"? But that's an age old debate.)

-Jester

While a bad habit, consider how many westerners have been killed by such advances.

A bullet don't care where you were born, nor where you learned how to shoot or hide. Funny old thing, the westerners seemed to try them weapons out on one another before applying them elsewhere, being that local squabbles tend to come first.

The one big exception? The atom bomb. A well constructed test, that was. People of wit learned a great deal from that, for less human cost than the flu epidemic of 1918-1920.

We (if I may refer to mankind collectively here, which I prefer not to do) got off cheap on that one ... so far.

When the Pakistanis drop their first nuke on someone, Jester, will they have morphed into "westerners" all of a sudden?

I wonder.

As to pirates: they are a symptom of the land based problem. Killing them on the high seas solves a symptom, not a disease. Follow the money, and kill the crime lords of Somalia, and their bankers in whatever country they hide their money.

Funny, we have not done that with the drug war in Mexico, so the odds of taking that tactic with Somali kidnap for profit scum is low.

This "civilized" world is falling into the common D & D paladin trap: lawful good = stupid.

No way to run an asylum.

Occhi

[--Pete]

Hi,

As to pirates: they are a symptom of the land based problem. Killing them on the high seas solves a symptom, not a disease.

The disease is their disease. When the *people* of Somalia (ditto Afghanistan, China, most of the Balkans, pretty damned near all the rest of Africa, etc.) want to solve it, then we should be ready and willing to help them. Until they do, all we can do is make it worse. If there's a secret recipe for making it better, then history tells us it remains secret.

The symptom, on the other hand, is our problem. And it is a problem we can do something about, given leadership with guts and commitment. The price may be some hostages, but there's no profit in being a dead pirate. As we did two hundred years ago, so should we now -- speak to them in the only language they understand.

--Pete

[Jester]

But, kidding aside, if your culture's philosophy doesn't trace back to Socrates, then it ain't Western.

You'd probably hit all the targets marked "Western" with that, but that's probably a little too much definitional firepower: you'd hit Somalia!

-Jester

[Occhidiangela]

Hi,
The disease is their disease. When the *people* of Somalia (ditto Afghanistan, China, most of the Balkans, pretty damned near all the rest of Africa, etc.) want to solve it, then we should be ready and willing to help them. Until they do, all we can do is make it worse. If there's a secret recipe for making it better, then history tells us it remains secret.

The symptom, on the other hand, is our problem. And it is a problem we can do something about, given leadership with guts and commitment. The price may be some hostages, but there's no profit in being a dead pirate. As we did two hundred years ago, so should we now -- speak to them in the only language they understand.

--Pete

Agreed. Thus, while it may be good sport to shoot them at sea, such expenditure of firepower will stop nothing. Killing ashore is the course of action I had in mind. Where's Presley O Bannon when you need him, eh?

I noted in the news today that various Somali trash talking filth were threatening to harm Americans since some of their brethren were shot in the course of a kidnap for profit operation.

That some piece of crap in the media gave them a microphone irritates me. They feed the

'bleeds and leads'

juxtaposition for their own profits and personal glory. Mercenary bastidges, the lot of them.

Back to "problem solving" as it were. Warlords and their bankers. Send them a lead telegram. Whoever is handling that ransom money has blood on his hands. Or hers. Or both.

It is necessary to disincentivize this kidnap for profit bit. In Somalia, and in Mexico, for that matter.

Occhi

[--Pete]

Hi,

You'd probably hit all the targets marked "Western" with that, but that's probably a little too much definitional firepower: you'd hit Somalia!

Interesting. Mind elaborating? While I'm aware that the Arabs and Islam were preservers of the classical Greek culture which was 'misplaced' in much of the West, I've always felt that that culture was foreign to the Islamic mindset. That their social norms and mores came more from the traditional behaviors of Arabia, with strong influences from the Middle East and not from the West. But if you have a story to tell of how the classic Greek culture influenced the Arab world, I'd be very interested to learn it.

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

Hi,
Interesting. Mind elaborating? While I'm aware that the Arabs and Islam were preservers of the classical Greek culture which was 'misplaced' in much of the West, I've always felt that that culture was foreign to the Islamic mindset. That their social norms and mores came more from the traditional behaviors of Arabia, with strong influences from the Middle East and not from the West. But if you have a story to tell of how the classic Greek culture influenced the Arab world, I'd be very interested to learn it.

--Pete

FWIW, the Persians had a hell of a lot more to do with Arab/Islamic world cultural baseline than their imperial rivals of antiquity, the Greeks. They also lasted a bit longer, as an Empire.;) Seems they didn't pose as ripe an offering for the Turks.

The mix of influences on the Islamic world are almost as interesting as the mix of influences on the Christian world.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Not that I doubt the history of the "East" is every bit as blood-drenched as anywhere else, but, to whom are you referring when you say "Easterners"?

West is West, and the rest is East, right? Actually, technically we should say Oriental, but that term is out of vogue. I'd say the largest Western kill was entirely unintentional. It was when they traveled to the new world bringing their diseases to the natives who had no resistances. I can't think of a culture (Eastern or Western) historically without any blood or repression on its hands. As an example, even Mr. Gandhi will have heard about the Conquest of Kalinga. That meager battle pales in comparison of what has been wrought in the Orient during the past few centuries.

I'm consciously not buying into your self loathing. We are at the present, and what we can do relates to now. Because you are a product of the excesses of the British empire doesn't mean the repentant thing to do is to offer up your booty to Somalia pirates.

[kandrathe]

Agreed. Thus, while it may be good sport to shoot them at sea, such expenditure of firepower will stop nothing. Killing ashore is the course of action I had in mind. Where's Presley O Bannon when you need him, eh?

I noted in the news today that various Somali trash talking filth were threatening to harm Americans since some of their brethren were shot in the course of a kidnap for profit operation.

That some piece of crap in the media gave them a microphone irritates me. They feed the

'bleeds and leads'

juxtaposition for their own profits and personal glory. Mercenary bastidges, the lot of them.

Back to "problem solving" as it were. Warlords and their bankers. Send them a lead telegram. Whoever is handling that ransom money has blood on his hands. Or hers. Or both.

It is necessary to disincentivize this kidnap for profit bit. In Somalia, and in Mexico, for that matter.

I was struck by the fact that there just happened to be an AP reporter in Eyl ready to get the reaction. Blood suckers, the lot of them.

[Jester]

Hi,
Interesting. Mind elaborating? While I'm aware that the Arabs and Islam were preservers of the classical Greek culture which was 'misplaced' in much of the West, I've always felt that that culture was foreign to the Islamic mindset. That their social norms and mores came more from the traditional behaviors of Arabia, with strong influences from the Middle East and not from the West. But if you have a story to tell of how the classic Greek culture influenced the Arab world, I'd be very interested to learn it.

--Pete

Not so much that Islamic culture has a special affinity, as no culture (not even and perhaps even especially the Greeks themselves) have kept the culture of golden age Greece from antiquity to present. If you're drawing the lineage chain back, the Islamic world is on it, the closer to the Mediterranean the better. But it's silly to pretend that, say, Britain, or the US, derives their culture directly from the Greeks. If anything, it's closer the other way around.

-Jester