The Paladin and the Shaman

[Artega]

Because I've refused to play Alliance, I can't comment on how Shaman are in PvP at the later stages of the game, but I do know that they can frontload some incredible damage.

However, I have a major gripe with Paladins. Frankly, I think they're ridiculously overpowered in PvP for a number of reasons:

Hammer of Justice: At rank 3, which is acquired at Lv.40, this is a ranged stun that stuns for five seconds. Comparing Paladins with Warriors, the only way we can get a five-second stun is by delving 21 points into the crappy Protection tree for Concussion Blow. The difference is that Concussion Blow does not have a ten-yard range, is next-melee and not instant, and has a 45-second cooldown instead of a one-minute cooldown. I wouldn't mind this skill if it required talents to make it really useful. Perhaps give it a casting time (2.0s maybe), and add a talent to reduce said casting time, or give it a flat 3s stun, and give it talents to increase that stun duration. But getting a ranged five-second stun for free is crap, especially when other classes have to invest talent points to get an instant ranged stun.

Divine Protection: This skill is utter bull#$%&, pure and through. Unlike Power Word: Shield, there is no way to counter this shield, and they can cast spells completely uninterrupted while shielded. In addition, it dispels all snares and other effects active on them, making them more than able to run back to the town guards after ganking someone who was simply fighting mobs. And I thought Paladins were supposed to be brave Holy Warriors. Bastards. Combine this with Blessing of Protection (which says "friendly target", which I'm assuming means it can be cast on self), and you have a bunch of cowardly Holy Warriors who do nothing but run away with their tails between their legs whenever they start losing a fight THEY started.

Seal of the Crusader: Just looking at this skill makes me think "Flurry and Rockbiter Weapon for free", but since the skill description isn't very good at describing the damage penalty, I'm just gonna have to go on my bias here :)

Frankly, I think the various Auras are a bunch of crap, too. Shaman get party-benefit effects, too, but they have to plant a stationary totem that costs mana and can be destroyed. The only way to remove an aura is to destroy the Paladin, and when they have their little coward-skills like Divine Protection, and if they haven't used Lay on Hands yet (I have yet to see this used on a party member in PvP; they always save it for themselves.) For the love of whatever is held dear, give auras a duration and a mana cost.

[Zarathustra]

Sounds like someone got killed by a Paladin.

I've partied up with a Paladin for much of my Druid's career, and I don't see them as being overpowered at all. Even the video that's circulating supposedly showing the "power of the Paladin" only demonstrated to me that it takes more than two seconds to kill them in PvP.

Paladins are stout, but it gives them the flavor they need for PvE to be a tank and actually different from a Warrior. I don't see how to nerf a Paladin for PvP without throwing things out of wack in the PvE aspect.

[Artega]

It's actually generally a stalemate for Paladin vs. Warrior, from my experiences. We both wear Plate, we both hit pretty hard, and we both have special stunts we can pull ever now and then.

What pisses me off is that Paladins are often ganking, or attempting to gank, people and when they turn to chase them off or anything of that nature, they simply hit their little protection crap, and run off to the nearest guards. I wouldn't have a problem if the pussies stayed and actually fought, but instead they run to the guards like the cowards they are.

Yeah, I don't like Paladins, just like I'm sure plenty of Alliance scum don't like Shaman, but at least Shaman don't have an impenetrable invulnerability spell.

[Malakar]

Seal of the Crusader: Just looking at this skill makes me think "Flurry and Rockbiter Weapon for free", but since the skill description isn't very good at describing the damage penalty, I'm just gonna have to go on my bias here :)

While this skill reduces damage, it's counteracted by the Attack Power increase. At level 10 I did roughly the same damage, with 40% faster swing speed. I believe my friend who has a 35 pally said he's actually getting damage increases from it now.

[SwissMercenary]

Yeah, I don't like Paladins, just like I'm sure plenty of Alliance scum don't like Shaman, but at least Shaman don't have an impenetrable invulnerability spell.
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Yeah... Shamen don't. But they do have their ever-lovely wolf form that they just love to abuse when ganking lowbies.

[Tal]

What pisses me off is that Paladins are often ganking, or attempting to gank, people and when they turn to chase them off or anything of that nature, they simply hit their little protection crap, and run off to the nearest guards.  I wouldn't have a problem if the pussies stayed and actually fought, but instead they run to the guards like the cowards they are.
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Every class has the ability to gank, or attempt to gank people. They also all have some built in ability to escape situations as well. It would seem to me, and I may be wrong in this, that you're likening the activities of an entire class to the worst aspects of the PvP server when every class has bad apples such as what you are describing. Chain polymorph gangs, rooftops snipers, chain warlock/priest fear anyone? Hell one reason why Mortal strike was nerfed for warriors because in PvP group action a couple of warriors could change the tide of the battle by using it.

I'll have you know that not all paladin's are cowardly pussies who run for the town guards everytime things go south. You're looking at one.

Fact is that a warrior will out DPS my paladin. With protection talents I can out tank a battle-stance warrior but not a protection warrior. I can maybe get 3 heals off before I'm OOM. My aura's are nice but have never been a deciding factor in any battle. If a mage counterspells me when using the holy tree then I'm out of luck and taking a dirt nap. I'm not immune to fear effects like a warrior, can be easily kited by a smart PvP'er and my heals interrupted. Once I use my divine shield and protection seal then I'm outta tricks for 5 minutes. If I use Lay of Hands I cannot use it for an hour. Yes we're tough to kill but I have yet to find this mythical "I win" button on any of the pally trainers. :rolleyes:

But warriors do need some more love to bring them back up to where they should be to fufill their dps/tank role. Nerfing the paladin and shaman aren't going to fix that however.

[Artega]

I've never had issues with chain Fearing because of the diminishing returns effect. And if I have 15 Rage, I simply return with Intercept to teach them why Fear can be a bad thing.

Because warriors generally aren't the first targets to be sheeped in PvP, I've never been sheeped.

And I still think Divine Shield and the Seal of Protection is crap. Complete invulnerability in a game with a heavy lean on PvP is just plain stupid. Power Word: Shield can be brought down by bashing on it or even with Purge, yet Paladins get a friendly-target complete invulnerability spell? Can I have some of what Blizzard was smoking when they decided to put that in?

[Bolty]

Chain polymorph gangs, rooftops snipers, chain warlock/priest fear anyone?
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From what I hear, the new hot griefing move on the PvP servers is endless polymorph. Two mages can cast sheep on someone for hours by switching off, and there isn't a damn thing the abused can do about it.

-Bolty

[Malakar]

From what I hear, the new hot griefing move on the PvP servers is endless polymorph.  Two mages can cast sheep on someone for hours by switching off, and there isn't a damn thing the abused can do about it.

-Bolty
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This still work after sheep was nerfed down to 15 seconds max in PVP? Cause if you get sheeped too many times in a short amount of time, you become immune to it for a bit, but I don't know how that works with two mages on one target.

[Tal]

I've never had issues with chain Fearing because of the diminishing returns effect.  And if I have 15 Rage, I simply return with Intercept to teach them why Fear can be a bad thing.

Because warriors generally aren't the first targets to be sheeped in PvP, I've never been sheeped.

And I still think Divine Shield and the Seal of Protection is crap.  Complete invulnerability in a game with a heavy lean on PvP is just plain stupid.  Power Word: Shield can be brought down by bashing on it or even with Purge, yet Paladins get a friendly-target complete invulnerability spell?  Can I have some of what Blizzard was smoking when they decided to put that in?
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I'm surprised that Divine shield hasn't been made purgeable since the Horde push.

[Artega]

I'm surprised that Divine shield hasn't been made purgeable since the Horde push.
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Given the fact that none of the Shaman I've ever played with (or any Priests, for that matter) ever use Purge or Dispel Magic, they very well could have made it purge-able since the push, but that would make "complete invulnerability" not quite right, wouldn't it?

[Artega]

From what I hear, the new hot griefing move on the PvP servers is endless polymorph.  Two mages can cast sheep on someone for hours by switching off, and there isn't a damn thing the abused can do about it.

-Bolty
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You can always bail out of WoW and go spend fifteen minutes doing real-life things like taking care of the dog, eating, and so on.

[Taeme]

I am very unsure on this, because while I have heard Paladins are broken and "a cut above" the other classes, I have killed so many of them over my PVP career that I really have no idea what makes them a cut above. They are one of the two classes I'm least worried to fight in PVP.

The invulnerability shield is annoying, but it seems to only ever delay the inevitable.

The idea of endless polymorph does not amuse me anywhere near the 'sheep can't swim' tactic does. For shame!

[Artega]

The only paladins that have beaten me are ones that are generally ten or fifteen levels above me - ones near my level usually fall to the overwhelming power of a spear and crits.

The thing is, when you compare the Shaman to the Paladin, the Paladin is clearly better. Shaman CAN frontload like nothing I've ever seen, but they die much more quickly than Paladins because of their lighter armor, and so many of their party-friendly abilities rely on (killable) totems.

[Tal]

The only paladins that have beaten me are ones that are generally ten or fifteen levels above me - ones near my level usually fall to the overwhelming power of a spear and crits.

The thing is, when you compare the Shaman to the Paladin, the Paladin is clearly better.  Shaman CAN frontload like nothing I've ever seen, but they die much more quickly than Paladins because of their lighter armor, and so many of their party-friendly abilities rely on (killable) totems.
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Oh I dunno - Shaman seem to do well enough the times I've run across them. Their heals seem to be much more effective and take less time than my own and while I spend time destroying his totem's he's busy putting lightning up my bum. ;) Shaman, priests, and warlock's are the classes I dread to PvP against. :)

[Occhidiangela]

You can always bail out of WoW and go spend fifteen minutes doing real-life things like taking care of the dog, eating, and so on.
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I risk starting a Sirianesque thread with this reply, but that option probably does not appeal to quite a few people who are anti-grief. It is tatamount to caving in to griefers. That said, I confess it is the kind of response I tended to advocate in D2, along the lines of sit in town and bore him to death while I get a cup of coffee, or crack jokes at his expense if the mood strikes. Simply put, griefing is not completely preventable. Coping methods have to be deveolped, if the game developer comes up with a "good enough" prevention scheme.

Town kill and scroll hack type loopholes need to be closed, for sure, but a dedicated pair of arses will come up with ways to annoy people no matter how much time and money a game company pours into attempts at legislating behaviour modification rules a la "I will make you play nice!"

I'd say "it's a people thing" per the excellent article Mongo Jerry linked to about the four types of on line game players in MUD/MMORG venues.

Occhi

[Artega]

Oh I dunno - Shaman seem to do well enough the times I've run across them. Their heals seem to be much more effective and take less time than my own and while I spend time destroying his totem's he's busy putting lightning up my bum. ;) Shaman, priests, and warlock's are the classes I dread to PvP against. :)
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I haven't directly compared the Paladin's heals versus the Shaman's heals in terms of how much they heal, but AFAIK, they both have a long heal and a short heal, and both lack an instant DoT heal.

I've never really had issues with Warlocks, but Priests scare the hell out of me. Even with fear immunity abilities, they're still damned scary. I currently have 20 Shadow Resistance, though, so they're starting to become a little less scary :)

[Rinnhart]

Because I've refused to play Alliance, I can't comment on how Shaman are in PvP at the later stages of the game, but I do know that they can frontload some incredible damage.

However, I have a major gripe with Paladins.  Frankly, I think they're ridiculously overpowered in PvP for a number of reasons:

/sigh

Hammer of Justice:  At rank 3, which is acquired at Lv.40, this is a ranged stun that stuns for five seconds.  Comparing Paladins with Warriors, the only way we can get a five-second stun is by delving 21 points into the crappy Protection tree for Concussion Blow.  The difference is that Concussion Blow does not have a ten-yard range, is next-melee and not instant, and has a 45-second cooldown instead of a one-minute cooldown.  I wouldn't mind this skill if it required talents to make it really useful.  Perhaps give it a casting time (2.0s maybe), and add a talent to reduce said casting time, or give it a flat 3s stun, and give it talents to increase that stun duration.  But getting a ranged five-second stun for free is crap, especially when other classes have to invest talent points to get an instant ranged stun.

A five second stun, at level 40, with a minute refresh. I'll trade you this for shield bash.

Trade ya a few combat buffs for hamstring, too.

Divine Protection:  This skill is utter bull#$%&, pure and through.  Unlike Power Word: Shield, there is no way to counter this shield, and they can cast spells completely uninterrupted while shielded.  In addition, it dispels all snares and other effects active on them, making them more than able to run back to the town guards after ganking someone who was simply fighting mobs.  And I thought Paladins were supposed to be brave Holy Warriors.  Bastards.  Combine this with Blessing of Protection (which says "friendly target", which I'm assuming means it can be cast on self), and you have a bunch of cowardly Holy Warriors who do nothing but run away with their tails between their legs whenever they start losing a fight THEY started.

I like Divine Shield more, personally.

Blessing of Protection only blocks physical damage.

And discretion is the better part of valor. Most of your cow brothers in STV seem to agree.

The average warrior's going to be playing with himself for a few seconds while we heal up using our shielding abilities. How about you bust out a bandaid? There's a thought. Runecloth bandages heal the same as our biggest (level 54) heal.
Or take a few steps back and whip out a gun for a little free damage when we're done.

Seal of the Crusader: Just looking at this skill makes me think "Flurry and Rockbiter Weapon for free", but since the skill description isn't very good at describing the damage penalty, I'm just gonna have to go on my bias here :)

Currently bugged in such a way that it doesn't reduce the weapon's damage at all if you equip a weapon while the spell is active.

But - you can do equal/better/vaguely similar damage with several other paladin abilities.

Warriors will still kick us into the ground on raw DPS.

Frankly, I think the various Auras are a bunch of crap, too.  Shaman get party-benefit effects, too, but they have to plant a stationary totem that costs mana and can be destroyed.  The only way to remove an aura is to destroy the Paladin, and when they have their little coward-skills like Divine Protection, and if they haven't used Lay on Hands yet (I have yet to see this used on a party member in PvP; they always save it for themselves.)  For the love of whatever is held dear, give auras a duration and a mana cost.

Sure, as soon as I get my mana regen, resist, damage shield, group proc, stat buff, ae dd/dot, heal, and damage reduction auras that stack (and I might have missed a few), I'll happily accept a mana cost and duration.

What the #$%&. Seriously, what the #$%&. Did you even look at paladin auras and shaman totems before posting? #$%&, a majority only have token mana costs!

Lay hands has an hour refresh and drains all our fricken mana. You're right, unless the #$%& really hits the fan, we don't use it on group members. Guess why while I go spam some heals that don't use all my mana, and will nigh fully heal a cloth or leather class of similar level, over there in the corner.

[Malakar]

/sigh
A five second stun, at level 40, with a minute refresh.
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Just wondering, have you tried using the 5 second stun to heal up twice?

[Rinnhart]

Just wondering, have you tried using the 5 second stun to heal up twice?
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Honestly? No. Generally I use it to delay runners/interrupt casters.

I will now, though.

Edit:

I'd still love a "counter-spell" effect.

Further edit:

How are you getting two heals out of a five second stun? Or are you saying "twice" as "in addition to using your shielding spell"?