Warlocks Getting Buffed

[vor_lord]

Believe Lissa is talking about Blessing of Protection. And I agree our options for escape situations blow.
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I see, BoP for 10 seconds (not 6). Not useful vs. casters but now I understand. So that means they have to follow for 22 seconds before they can finish us off, not 12 ;)

Perhaps in the vicinity of some guards this is viable.

[KiloVictor]

Both Fear and Howl of Terror have 1.5 second cast timers. The priest's Pyschic Scream and the Mage's Frost Nova and Blink are all instant cast spells. The cast time means we can't use them on the run, and they can be interupted by hits. We're also terribly excited about the anti-fear trinket available to some classes.
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Yes, but we can sac a void and casts are uninterruptible while the shield holds. And we can chain-cast fear as much as we want.

We also typically have a ton of HP, which means that we can take a fair bit of a beating while we're chain-casting fear. After the PvP trinket has been used once, fear kiting is a viable strategy for escape or for laying a whuppin' on your opponent.

No argument that warlocks are not the best at fleeing, but we have enough other tools that we can stand and fight just fine.

Kv

[savaughn]

Why should warlocks have any better escape tools than any other class?
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My point entirely. Chainable fear, seduce, instant cast dots to drop runners, the ability to summon unstoppable horrors in the middle of mass combat... clearly no PvP options here.

Based on the threads on this board, apparently, 'locks want a mage's escape mechanism and mages want the 'lock's AoE dps. I'm waiting for the thread about how they should both get plate....

[Treesh]

I'm waiting for the thread about how they should both get plate....
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Noob! Plate is going to be for priests. Everyone knows that. :P

[vor_lord]

LOL I can list at least 3 escape options for all. Let's assume 1v1 PvP first.

Paladins: Ranged stun, 3 Invincible bubbles, self heal of damage, magic, and all snare effects.

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Oh noes, I must have forgotten to buy a couple of invincible bubbles! There's one invincible bubble on a 5 minute timer. There's another one which only works against physical damage, also on a 5 minute timer (protection paladins may have reduced this cooldown). I'll check the trainer for a third :P

[Lissa]

And Psychic Scream has a 30 second cooldown time and trinkets have a 5 minute cooldown. Meanwhile, warlocks can cast fear over and over again.  Anti-fear trinkets mean nothing when a warlock can just cast fear again.

Mongo, you've obviously have never seen what it's like for an Alliance Warlock to face an undead with this trinket. Let me give you a little in on this...

First Cast of fear...Will of the Forsaken...haha...no fear for you for 20 seconds, now I proceed to butcher you. Oops, you lived more than 20 seconds, you can fear, I hit trinket, try it again. Ooooh, you cast fear, I feared, FOR 2 SECONDS! Now I finish you off while I'm immune to your fear. Let's throw in something else, I end up hitting you with damage which makes you fear take even longer to cast.

Listening to the complaints, it seems like what you want is a "warlock wins all fights" button no matter how many opponents you're up against.  Thank God the developers don't listen.  I often team up with a warlock friend in PvP, and we just destroy everything in our paths.  And, oh man, in those big zerg fights in Hillsbrad, we can dot everything and watch everything die all around us.  Only those teams who actually employ dispellers give us any problems, and even in those cases, a healthy dose of fear and dps usually take care of things.

No, we want to be able to survive. Look at what happens when a mage gets jumped on either side, they FN, Blink and then proceed to kite the attacker. What happens when a Priest or Warlock get's jumped, we basically have no way of getting away with the new anti-fear trinkets, it hurts Priest more granted, but it still screws both classes. Atleast the Shadowpriest has a viable snare (Curse of Exhaustion is total crap as a snare...we get 12 seconds at a 70% reduction in speed or 50% if we use amplify curse, which is on a 2 minute timer, meanwhile Mind Flay can be spammed and is very mana efficent and is doing damage).

Look, warlocks are damn annoying in one-on-one fights.  You just have to learn the appropriate tactics to use to deal with different classes and know how to use your pets in PvP situations.  And if you're complaining about how you lose if you're being attacked 2-on-1 or more, all I can say is, "duh."  That's the way it's supposed to be.
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Warlocks are annoying in one on one fights when they're prepared. An unprepared Warlock is easy pickings.

[Lissa]

My point entirely.  Chainable fear, seduce, instant cast dots to drop runners, the ability to summon unstoppable horrors in the middle of mass combat... clearly no PvP options here.

Based on the threads on this board, apparently, 'locks want a mage's escape mechanism and mages want the 'lock's AoE dps.  I'm waiting for the thread about how they should both get plate....
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Uh, what? Chainable Fear/Seduce, you're kidding right? 3 Fears and/or Seduces and you're immune, and with the various fear removal items out there, our longest lasting Fear/Seduce is wiped. Then you have to deal with possibly 5 seconds if you don't have another Anti-fear option available and then the maximum time you can be Feared/Seduced before immunity is 2 seconds...wow...a whole two seconds. Meanwhile we have other classes out here doing various snares, roots, and stuns that last far longer. Chain fear died when diminishing returns were put in and Fear/Seduce died with the 1.4 patch, it's not viable for a Warlock in PvP.

In all honesty, go play a lv 60 Warlock or Priest in PvP and see how you feel after a while when you become the HK award for whatever passing class runs into you. Warlocks and Priests have been severly scrwed by the anti-fear trinkets.

[Icebird]

And Psychic Scream has a 30 second cooldown time and trinkets have a 5 minute cooldown. Meanwhile, warlocks can cast fear over and over again.  Anti-fear trinkets mean nothing when a warlock can just cast fear again.

Howl of Terror has 40 second cooldown. Fear can be cast again and again, but is subject to diminishing returns. It's a very powerful skill in pvp, or the anti-fear, anti-charm, anti-polymorph trinket wouldn't exit.

Listening to the complaints, it seems like what you want is a "warlock wins all fights" button no matter how many opponents you're up against.

I think what we want is an "oh crap, get me the hell out of here" button.

I don't play on a pvp server, and I haven't done much PvP myself, so maybe I'm not qualified to comment on the warlock's ability in pvp. On the other, playing with warlocks or against warlocks is slightly different from actually playing a warlock yourself. For instance, I'm curious about how many soul shards your friend carries around, and how long he spends farming them.

Chris

[mjdoom]

What happens when a Priest or Warlock get's jumped, we basically have no way of getting away with the new anti-fear trinkets, it hurts Priest more granted, but it still screws both classes. 
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That stupid trinket is just one more way to hurt priests and warlocks in PvP. I think I don't sympathize as much because I'm getting screwed just as much (if not more in the case of no WotF, not everyone has it and you can still recast faster). Basically we both get screwed and as a priest I have lost my one and only "oh crap" button.

meanwhile Mind Flay can be spammed and is very mana efficent and is doing damage).
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Being a disc/holy priest I don't have mind flay any more but that's probably not as common if you want to PvP (consider me a glutton for punishment). Still, flay is channeled so it is only viable as a snare if you are trying to stay and fight. It does you no good if you are attempting to run in any capacity.

Most of my experience is with group PvP (as 1v1 is almost non-existant on normal servers other than dueling which is a different beast). I generally try to stay near the pack because the instant I get seperated I'm dead. The combination of my low life and lack of instant saviors (desperate prayer can maybe save me once per half hour) means that if psychic scream fails for any reason (resist, immune due to one of various reasons, stupid trinket) I'm done. I don't know that it is much better for a 'lock, but at least you might have a chance to refear a player when they catch you 1v1 away from the main battle. I'm just as helpless 1v1 as I am against multiple enemies.

Please understand, I've never played a 'lock and don't know for sure how hard they have it. I must say I don't see too many 'locks out on the battlefield fighting back and forth at XR or TM or any of the other usual PvP spots. I'm just saying that from my perspective I have some of the same issues and a shield/renew is not as useful against a human opponent as it is against your standard-issue mobs.

In the end I think this is ok though. It probably sucks a lot more on PvP servers where you can be caught off guard more easily and more often, but I think the more prepared player will always have an advantage. It has been admitted that a prepared warlock is very hard to kill. If I can prepare I am also in a better situation (be certain IF is up, get a preshield on myself, etc.). I'm not sure where it is unbalancing that some classes can't easily get away. If anything mages just have the best set of options so we all want them. Well, they still go down quickly if you properly surprise them (Without experience I'd guess that a silenced mage= a dead mage when caught off guard). Still, if anything I think it should be balanced more toward not being able to easily wriggle out of disadvantageous positions (although rogues still should be able to do things like vanish, it is a central part of their skillset). We are all more effective when we dictate the direction and pace of a battle and it should be hard to turn the tides in your favor if the other player gets the jump. Maybe I'm just crazy...

- mjdoom

[Phoenix]

Oh noes, I must have forgotten to buy a couple of invincible bubbles!  There's one invincible bubble on a 5 minute timer.  There's another one which only works against physical damage, also on a 5 minute timer (protection paladins may have reduced this cooldown).  I'll check the trainer for a third  :P
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As for the "ranged stun", it's a whopping 10 yards. Wow. Talk about MASSIVE! :rolleyes: And at level 54, it last 75% as long as a level 10 Frost Nova.

And if Warlocks and Priests can complain about anti-fear trinkets, then Rogues and Paladins can complain about anti-stun trinkets. Mages can complain about anti-poly trinkets, Druids about anti-immobilizing trinkets etc. Trinkets messed up all the classes standard PvP methods. Adapt instead of complaining.

[mjdoom]

And if Warlocks and Priests can complain about anti-fear trinkets, then Rogues and Paladins can complain about anti-stun trinkets. Mages can complain about anti-poly trinkets, Druids about anti-immobilizing trinkets etc. Trinkets messed up all the classes standard PvP methods. Adapt instead of complaining.
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As far as I understand it the anti-caster trinket as I call it is the most common. Still, if you look at mages they can always repoly (I know of no other ways to stop poly, unlike fear which already had some ways to stop it prior to the trinket). The anti-stun trinkets only work sometimes and the classes that get stunlocked most by rogues don't have them anyway. I just see it that clearly my best, if not ONLY option in some cases to turn the tide of battle has been rendered moot. I will most likely not be alive 30 seconds later to try to scream again. I don't think a rogue instantly loses a battle if a single stun is resisted; it can certainly make a difference but it's not guaranteed to do so.

- mjdoom

[MongoJerry]

Atleast the Shadowpriest has a viable snare (Curse of Exhaustion is total crap as a snare...we get 12 seconds at a 70% reduction in speed or 50% if we use amplify curse, which is on a 2 minute timer, meanwhile Mind Flay can be spammed and is very mana efficent and is doing damage).

Mind Flay only has a 20-yard range, and the priest has to stand still to get it to work. If the target is running away, you'll get at most one mind flay off before the target is out of range. The only use for it as a snare is to a) slow the target down just enough so that hopefully a partymember can catch up and do one of their snares or b) slow an approaching melee character down on their approach just a little bit. It's an ineffective attack if the priest is actively being hit, so the only time a priest can effectively spam it is if the priest is fighting a caster at close range or if enemy players are stupidly attacking someone nearby other than the priest.

[MongoJerry]

And if Warlocks and Priests can complain about anti-fear trinkets, then Rogues and Paladins can complain about anti-stun trinkets. Mages can complain about anti-poly trinkets, Druids about anti-immobilizing trinkets etc. Trinkets messed up all the classes standard PvP methods. Adapt instead of complaining.

Mages can recast poly and druids can recast vines. The anti-stun trinkets are nice, but they only effectively remove a couple seconds off the stun. The anti-fear trinkets remove far more seconds off the fear -- both in the time that the person is actually feared and the time it takes for the person to get back to and attack the caster. Anti-fear trinkets hurt priests and to some extent warlocks far more than other classes get hurt by similar trinkets.

[Kevin]

I thought diminshing returns on fear went something like this, assuming it isn't broken by damage or just quits early like they do.

You cast fear, if they are feared again in 15 seconds it is diminished. So with Trinket you get a 1 or 2 second fear before they break it, in which time you fear again for 5 seconds. So now you stop fearing and they beat on you for 10 seconds. Now you fear them and you get the full 10 seconds now since the dimishing returns timer is reset. As soon as it breaks you can get them with a 5 second fear again, that they could probably break with the trinket, with your DoT's still working them over and they still can't use their charm. So you should still be able to fear them for around 15-18 seconds out of every 30 and if you let them beat on you for a bit (and since they were feared away some of that time is spent getting back to you) they won't ever be immune.

I know I haven't played with it, but the theorycraft, unless I misunderstood the diminshing returns, still makes it seem pretty usable to fight and to escape with.

Edit: You can't mount in combat. Sorry wasn't thinking there....

[Tal]

I see Paladins charge a 20-man raid and get away completely unharmed.  Granted, they don't really do much of anything (usually a Consecration or something else to annoy and scatter people), but they have NO problem getting away.

I've seen then bubble, mount, and ride off.

Don't tell me you can't get away when you want to :P
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If I've dropped a consecration or attacked anyone I won't be bubbling and mounting to get away. In combat = not able to summon mounts. I've heard a LOT from the horde about paladins who run in, consecrate and then either hearth out or run away. And I have to wonder why the horde doesn't designate mages to sheep them on the way in if they're that worried about the piddily damage a consecration can do.

[Raelynn]

I thought diminshing returns on fear went something like this, assuming it isn't broken by damage or just quits early like they do.

You cast fear, if they are feared again in 15 seconds it is diminished.  So with Trinket you get a 1 or 2 second fear before they break it, in which time you fear again for 5 seconds.  So now you stop fearing and they beat on you for 10 seconds. Now you fear them and you get the full 10 seconds now since the dimishing returns timer is reset.  As soon as it breaks you can get them with a 5 second fear again, that they could probably break with the trinket, with your DoT's still working them over and they still can't use their charm.  So you should still be able to fear them for around 15-18 seconds out of every 30 and if you let them beat on you for a bit (and since they were feared away some of that time is spent getting back to you) they won't ever be immune.

I know I haven't played with it, but the theorycraft, unless I misunderstood the diminshing returns, still makes it seem pretty usable to fight and to escape with.

Edit:  You can't mount in combat.  Sorry wasn't thinking there....
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I thought the reset timer for the DR was much longer....closer to 30 seconds, but I haven't done extensive testing. As for the "let them beat on you comment", most PvP fights last about 10 seconds total, unless you're fighting a smart paladin or a lucky warlock so letting them hit you isn't much of an option.

[Kevin]

I thought the reset timer for the DR was much longer....closer to 30 seconds, but I haven't done extensive testing.  As for the "let them beat on you comment", most PvP fights last about 10 seconds total, unless you're fighting a smart paladin or a lucky warlock so letting them hit you isn't much of an option.
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Well not stand still, you move around you run from them so they are chasing you while the 15 second timer is running, etc. You can get them in the wrong facing or get out of range in PvP. I was being loose with my terms.

From the patch notes:

Spells must be used on the same target within 15 seconds of the
  *end* of the duration in order to be diminished. In other words, if a
  target hasn't had a slowing spell active on them for more than 15
  seconds, the next slowing spell will have full effect.

So I'm still not sure. The first sentence makes it sound like what I described above, the diminishing returns timer starts when the first effect hits them. The 2nd sentence makes it sound like the diminishing returns timer starts to run at the end of the effect of the first cast. I love patch notes. :)

Again I could be way off on the diminishing returns thing. But if it works like I think it does, it isn't as bad for locks as I think they make it out to be, though against udead with a trinket it gets pretty ugly regardless. But since their immunity is 20 seconds you are out of the diminishing returns regardless of how it works after they use that. It also gets a bit uglier against a dwarf priest but that is a much smaller set than all undead.

[Icebird]

As far as I understand it the anti-caster trinket as I call it is the most common.  Still, if you look at mages they can always repoly (I know of no other ways to stop poly, unlike fear which already had some ways to stop it prior to the trinket). 
- mjdoom
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I believe druids can break poly by shapeshifting (or at least they're supposed to be able to). The Felhunter's Devour Magic ability eats Poly for lunch. (I made a macro that targetted my player so the pet would unsheep me instead of eating an Arcane Intellect buff). Instant cast, and only an 8 second cooldown. It is one occasion where warlocks have a defensive option not available to other classes. Theoretically Spellstone could also dispell it although I've never tested in practice.

Edit: My understanding is that a target must be free of fear effects for 15 seconds for it to reset. Prior to the most recent patch, you could keep a target seduced until the fear timer reset, then start chain-fearing them again. Now the two skills are on the same timer.

Chris

[Raelynn]

Yes, but we can sac a void and casts are uninterruptible while the shield holds. And we can chain-cast fear as much as we want.

We also typically have a ton of HP, which means that we can take a fair bit of a beating while we're chain-casting fear. After the PvP trinket has been used once, fear kiting is a viable strategy for escape or for laying a whuppin' on your opponent.

No argument that warlocks are not the best at fleeing, but we have enough other tools that we can stand and fight just fine.

Kv
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Last I tried that, they were interruptable. Hits were slowing the cast and much like the priest shield, stuns and kicks go right through.

[lemekim]

If I've dropped a consecration or attacked anyone I won't be bubbling and mounting to get away. In combat = not able to summon mounts. I've heard a LOT from the horde about paladins who run in, consecrate and then either hearth out or run away. And I have to wonder why the horde doesn't designate mages to sheep them on the way in if they're that worried about the piddily damage a consecration can do.
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You can run in with Blessing of Freedom on, Consecrate, then shield and run away - and you can't stop that because shield breaks sheep, fear, stuns, anything.

As for Warlocks, they have a lot of escape/defense options, the biggest problem I think is that they have to be ready for it, and they require lots and lots of shards to be most effective. Healthstone, Deathcoil, Sacrifice, even Soulstone can be used as "oops" spells and help to beat someone who got the jump on you. Affliction specced warlocks can use Amp Curse + CoE to snare someone and get away from them, and a lucky Nightfall proc can absolutely destroy whoever is attacking you. Demonology specced warlocks can activate Soul Link to last much longer, and recast Voidwalker or w/e pet they want in .5 sec. Destruction warlocks don't have as many escape options, although with Curse of Shadow they can get some pretty nasty Shadowburn crits, in addition to surviving longer through above means.

With all that said, I do think Warlocks need something - maybe a castable shield similar to druids Barkskin, or a talent that reduces chance to interrupt Shadow spells (including fear).

And if all fails, there is always engineering =) Goblin Rocket Helmet = guaranteed 30 seconds of mez. Discombobulator ray to slow them down. Bombs =)