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+--- Thread: Warlocks Getting Buffed (/thread-6406.html)
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Quark - 05-10-2005
Since I'm getting ready to head to bed after finishing my 2nd to last thing to do till I graudate, I figured it's a good time to scoop MongoJerry again :)
Eyonix has posted upcoming Warlock Changes, the current listed changes being for the Demonology tree.
Quote:
- Improved Voidwalker - This talent will now increases all Voidwalker spells including Sacrifice by 10/20/30%.
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- Improved Succubus - Placing points in this talent will now improve Succubus spells by 10/20/30%.
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- Master Summoner - In addition to decreasing casting time of summoning the Imp, Voidwalker, Succubus and Felhunter, it now reduces mana cost by 20/40%.
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- Demonic Sacrifice - This ability Is now instant cast.
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- Improved Firestone - This talent will now also improve the bonus Fire spell damage when a Firestones is equipped by 15/30%.
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- Improved Enslave Demon - In addition to reducing the attack and casting speed penalty of enslaved demons, chance to resist is now reduced by 2/4/6/8/10%.<>
[st]
That and the Infernal is guaranteed to not turn for at least 5 minutes. So how do warlocks feel about these changes? I don't know enough about the class to say how this would modify things.
Oh, and as Eyonix said later, this isn't the only warlock changes. It's just what they got done first and finalized for the next patch already.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Raven Vale - 05-10-2005
Looks like they changed all the wrong stuff except for Enslave demon being a guaranteed 5 minutes . Maybe the major issues will get dealt with one day :P
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Raelynn - 05-10-2005
Quark,May 10 2005, 03:46 AM Wrote:Since I'm getting ready to head to bed after finishing my 2nd to last thing to do till I graudate, I figured it's a good time to scoop MongoJerry again :)
Eyonix has posted upcoming Warlock Changes, the current listed changes being for the Demonology tree.
That and the Infernal is guaranteed to not turn for at least 5 minutes. So how do warlocks feel about these changes? I don't know enough about the class to say how this would modify things.
Oh, and as Eyonix said later, this isn't the only warlock changes. It's just what they got done first and finalized for the next patch already.
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The changes look to be moving in the right direction. I would've liked them to touch on some of the other big problems a bit sooner, such as the escape spell and the soul shard issues. I haven't used the enslave demon much, but in terms of it being useful, if the subsequent enslaves have little to no duration and frequently resist (costing a shard still), then the 5 minutes guaranteed is just fluff. 5 minutes is no length for a pet. We need to be able to somewhat reliably hold him for longer than that given the shard cost to maintain the spell.
I've actually liked some of the ides about pets, such as keeping the pet guaranteed, but requiring a soul shard to be "fed" to the pet every 5 or so minutes, or in decreasing durations. One guy even suggested permanent durations for an non-elite enslave because they have been shown to be not significantly more powerful than hunter pets.
On that note, the demons themselves need a slight buff while enslaved to make the reward a bit closer to the risk. They also didn't make note of the bug that comes with these summons, being the "going blue and despawning" bug.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - bonemage - 05-10-2005
Well, it's a definite start. I cast inferno to summon an infernal for the first time over the weekend. Together we quickly dispatched 1 non-elite mob in 10-15 seconds or so, he then promptly turned on me and killed me after he resisted both attempts at curse of shadow, and then both attempts at enslave demon. He was in my service for less than 30 seconds. I really only needed him for 5 minutes, so the upcoming fixes will help some. I was seriously disappointed as to how useless the infernal was. This helps some, and as I was already considering a demonology respec, this just might cement it...
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Icebird - 05-10-2005
I'd say they are all steps in the right direction which is a good thing.
Improved Voidwalker - Definitely a nice improvement. Better Sacrifice is the obvious benefit, but improved Consume Shadows and potentially better Taunt / Suffering are also nice.
Improved Succbus - Hmmm - Would this improve Seduction length or effectiveness? Obvious benefit is more damage from Lash of Pain, although to get the most benefit you would need the Improved Lash of Pain destruction talent, which reduces the cooldown.
Master Summoner - Nice change, especially in situations like PvP where you might have to rapid cast pets often.
Improved Firestone - Buffed, but who uses them? The rarely seen melee warlock? (Hmm - I have a Charstone Dirk in my bank, maybe I'll try it sometime).
Improved Enslave Demon - What everyone really wanted was an increase in the length of enslavement time. From this we can surmise that Blizzard is happy with the current enslavement times. Until its tested its hard to know whether the 10% lower resist to Enslave would make a significant difference. If it made the Doomguard worth the inconvenience I might consider it.
Chris
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Lissa - 05-10-2005
Quark,May 10 2005, 12:46 AM Wrote:Since I'm getting ready to head to bed after finishing my 2nd to last thing to do till I graudate, I figured it's a good time to scoop MongoJerry again :)
Eyonix has posted upcoming Warlock Changes, the current listed changes being for the Demonology tree.
That and the Infernal is guaranteed to not turn for at least 5 minutes. So how do warlocks feel about these changes? I don't know enough about the class to say how this would modify things.
Oh, and as Eyonix said later, this isn't the only warlock changes. It's just what they got done first and finalized for the next patch already.
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How do I feel...meh...bordering on angry...
The Devs are pulling a bait and switch again. I would rather have a fix for being able to reset the enslave timer on the end game demons instead of having a guarenteed 5 minutes on the Infernal (I can guarentee 5 minutes on a Doomie just by using CoS first and then enslaving on the first enslave). Likewise, they didn't even hit the talents that are broken in the tree, like improved healthstone. They still haven't truly addressed the problems of the Warlock in PvP, like the fact we have NO escape skill or that getting shards in PvP is impossible (and that we still suck in PvP without shards), or that Soul Link can be dispelled. Simply, the Devs just don't get it.
Simply put, the Devs just aren't listening to the true concerns of Warlocks and it's getting very, very annoying.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - savaughn - 05-10-2005
Lissa,May 10 2005, 10:30 AM Wrote:They still haven't truly addressed the problems of the Warlock in PvP, like the fact we have NO escape skill or that getting shards in PvP is impossible (and that we still suck in PvP without shards), or that Soul Link can be dispelled.You have fear. Want to complain about no escape skill in PvP, please get in line behind the Paladins, Warriors, Hunters...
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Warlocks Getting Buffed - Icebird - 05-10-2005
savaughn,May 10 2005, 10:55 AM Wrote:You have fear. Want to complain about no escape skill in PvP, please get in line behind the Paladins, Warriors, Hunters...
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Both Fear and Howl of Terror have 1.5 second cast timers. The priest's Pyschic Scream and the Mage's Frost Nova and Blink are all instant cast spells. The cast time means we can't use them on the run, and they can be interupted by hits. We're also terribly excited about the anti-fear trinket available to some classes.
Being self-absorbed spell casters we assume the mail and plate wearers can take a beating and have less pressing need for escape skills.
The Healthstone issue does mystify me, since it must have been mentioned at least every other post in the feedback thread. (The talent currently does not improve healthstones given to other people).
Warlocks will be able to gain soul shards from players in the 1.5 patch, but it will still be an issue until they give us another way of earning shards than by using Drain Soul. (Taking away the shard cost from Shadowburn would be a great move IMO)
Chris
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Lissa - 05-10-2005
savaughn,May 10 2005, 10:55 AM Wrote:You have fear. Want to complain about no escape skill in PvP, please get in line behind the Paladins, Warriors, Hunters...
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You have no idea how useless Fear is in PvP now, no idea.
Let me give you a list of how bad Fear is...
1) Trinkets that now wipe fear and you only need to be rank 3 to get them.
2) Warriors have an invulnerability that they can activate, fear of no use.
3) WotF for the Alliance Warlocks.
4) 1.5s cast time that quickly turns into 3+ seconds against a fast attack melee.
Let's look at what Pally has
1) Invulnerability shield for 12 seconds, 6 seconds on the self cast, 6 seconds on any target.
2) Ability to heal.
3) A easy to use stun that is gotten early and is instant.
Let's look at Warrior has
1) Hamstring
2) If I could remember the power right now, I would list it, but it does a stun.
3) If I played my Warrior more, I may have other options.
Let's look at Hunter has
1) Disengage...drop a trap and hit AotC and run a bit, then jump on your mount.
2) FD...drop a trap and hit AotC and run a bit, then jump on your mount.
3) Wingclip to snare and then run.
4) Concussive shot and then run.
Also, last time I checked, Warrior, Mages, and Rogues were the primary top people for HKs while Warlocks and Priests were the bottom rungs. Simply put, Warlocks have been screwed every patch since live concerning PvP. Every patch the Warlock's Fear and Seduce has been nerfed, yet we see nothing being done about the overpowered classes in PvP.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Darian - 05-10-2005
Lissa,May 10 2005, 02:31 PM Wrote:Let's look at Warrior has
1) Hamstring
2) If I could remember the power right now, I would list it, but it does a stun.
3) If I played my Warrior more, I may have other options.
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2) Concussive Blow, Intercept.
3) Shield Bash and Pummel act as Silence, which screws your fear. I'm also not sure whether it works in PvP or not, but there's Intimidating Shout, which IS fear...
I'm on your guys' side here; Warlocks have some issues. That said, try and remember that the fixes announced were just the "easy" ones they could get in on the next patch, and more appear to be coming.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - vor_lord - 05-10-2005
Lissa,May 10 2005, 11:31 AM Wrote:Let's look at what Pally has
1) Invulnerability shield for 12 seconds, 6 seconds on the self cast, 6 seconds on any target.
2) Ability to heal.
3) A easy to use stun that is gotten early and is instant.
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This is totally orthogonal to warlock fear problems (which I fully acknowledge), but none of the above are usable as an escape mechanism. A paladin has one escape option: shield, /rude and hearthstone. Six seconds (either repentance or Hammer of Justice) is not enough even to escape from mobs let alone in PvP (same goes for concussive blow). The 12 seconds of shield can be used to escape from mobs due to their reset radius, but not in PvP as you have no way of slowing down your opponent while you are trying to run (i.e. any kind of snare).
Not sure what you mean by six seconds on the self cast and six seconds on any target -- do you mean using the shield to heal up and get one free swing on the enemy (assuming they stood in front of you while you healed)? Even so that does not an escape skill make.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Tal - 05-10-2005
vor_lord,May 10 2005, 03:08 PM Wrote:Not sure what you mean by six seconds on the self cast and six seconds on any target -- do you mean using the shield to heal up and get one free swing on the enemy (assuming they stood in front of you while you healed)? Even so that does not an escape skill make.
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Believe Lissa is talking about Blessing of Protection. And I agree our options for escape situations blow.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-10-2005
savaughn,May 10 2005, 12:55 PM Wrote:You have fear. Want to complain about no escape skill in PvP, please get in line behind the Paladins, Warriors, Hunters...
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LOL I can list at least 3 escape options for all. Let's assume 1v1 PvP first.
Paladins: Ranged stun, 3 Invincible bubbles, self heal of damage, magic, and all snare effects.
Hunters: feign death (yes it does work on players), wing clip, scatter shot, ice trap, aspect of pack
Warriors: Intimidating fear, hamstring, damage mitigation, charge/intercept when applicable
Let's see... each of them a wealth of abilities to draw from.. snaring or removing snares, ability to stun or break out of it, ability to move faster, abilities to mitigate or remove damage.
Nah. They can escape.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Artega - 05-10-2005
Tal,May 10 2005, 03:13 PM Wrote:Believe Lissa is talking about Blessing of Protection. And I agree our options for escape situations blow.
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I see Paladins charge a 20-man raid and get away completely unharmed. Granted, they don't really do much of anything (usually a Consecration or something else to annoy and scatter people), but they have NO problem getting away.
I've seen then bubble, mount, and ride off.
Don't tell me you can't get away when you want to :P
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-10-2005
Lissa,May 10 2005, 01:31 PM Wrote:Also, last time I checked, Warrior, Mages, and Rogues were the primary top people for HKs while Warlocks and Priests were the bottom rungs. [right][snapback]76813[/snapback][/right]
This doesn't really apply for the really dedicated warlocks. Some of them are top contenders for contrib... However, they're the exception that proves the point, rather than goes against it. Warlocks are the big red target, and rogues/etc brag about killing warlocks in the field. Some of us are still tougher nuts to crack, but its a lot tougher for us to pull off. Warlock learning/power curve is greatly disproportionate compared to rogues, mages, warriors etc. While other classes only need mastery at the upper end of skill levels, Warlocks need to master at lot more for comparable results.
It ain't easy, even when you're good, while other classes get results even when players aren't good.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - MongoJerry - 05-10-2005
Icebird,May 10 2005, 11:10 AM Wrote:Both Fear and Howl of Terror have 1.5 second cast timers. The priest's Pyschic Scream and the Mage's Frost Nova and Blink are all instant cast spells. The cast time means we can't use them on the run, and they can be interupted by hits. We're also terribly excited about the anti-fear trinket available to some classes.
And Psychic Scream has a 30 second cooldown time and trinkets have a 5 minute cooldown. Meanwhile, warlocks can cast fear over and over again. Anti-fear trinkets mean nothing when a warlock can just cast fear again.
Quote:Simply put, the Devs just aren't listening to the true concerns of Warlocks and it's getting very, very annoying.
Listening to the complaints, it seems like what you want is a "warlock wins all fights" button no matter how many opponents you're up against. Thank God the developers don't listen. I often team up with a warlock friend in PvP, and we just destroy everything in our paths. And, oh man, in those big zerg fights in Hillsbrad, we can dot everything and watch everything die all around us. Only those teams who actually employ dispellers give us any problems, and even in those cases, a healthy dose of fear and dps usually take care of things.
Look, warlocks are damn annoying in one-on-one fights. You just have to learn the appropriate tactics to use to deal with different classes and know how to use your pets in PvP situations. And if you're complaining about how you lose if you're being attacked 2-on-1 or more, all I can say is, "duh." That's the way it's supposed to be.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - Drasca - 05-10-2005
The changes are really minor, except improved enslaved demon.
Icebird,May 10 2005, 10:36 AM Wrote:Improved Voidwalker - Definitely a nice improvement. Better Sacrifice is the obvious benefit, but improved Consume Shadows and potentially better Taunt / Suffering are also nice.[right][snapback]76791[/snapback][/right]
Very minor benefit. Consumed Shadows/ Taunt / Suffering only gain minor bonuses to what they have now. Improved sacrifice is a nice little bonus... but 600 one time damage absorption at level 60 for 30 seconds is... only marginally useful. . . especially with the current soul link bug eating damage through the shields.
Quote:Improved Succbus - Hmmm - Would this improve Seduction length or effectiveness?
Improved length is effectiveness. Only marginally improved from current.
Quote:Master Summoner - Nice change, especially in situations like PvP where you might have to rapid cast pets often.
Lower mana costs are nice, but the cast time is why we get this skill.
Quote:Improved Firestone - Buffed, but who uses them? The rarely seen melee warlock? (Hmm - I have a Charstone Dirk in my bank, maybe I'll try it sometime).
Oh good warlocks can use this quite a bit. I wish I picked thrash blade as a quest reward from inner mara instead of resurgeance rod though. That would be best for melee-lock.
Quote:Improved Enslave Demon - What everyone really wanted was an increase in the length of enslavement time.
Reduced resists *IS* a increase in enslaved time. It might be worth it now. I actually use enslaved demons quite a bit in group pvp, and instances with demons abound. I'm considering respeccing to get this now. Only problem is the other talents are much more useful all the time, instead of just enslaved demon time.
Warlocks Getting Buffed - KiloVictor - 05-10-2005
Raelynn,May 10 2005, 06:38 AM Wrote:The changes look to be moving in the right direction. I would've liked them to touch on some of the other big problems a bit sooner, such as the escape spell and the soul shard issues. I haven't used the enslave demon much, but in terms of it being useful, if the subsequent enslaves have little to no duration and frequently resist (costing a shard still), then the 5 minutes guaranteed is just fluff. 5 minutes is no length for a pet. We need to be able to somewhat reliably hold him for longer than that given the shard cost to maintain the spell.Enslave demon is one of those tricky things to balance; I'm not sure they'll ever get it right.
I've actually liked some of the ides about pets, such as keeping the pet guaranteed, but requiring a soul shard to be "fed" to the pet every 5 or so minutes, or in decreasing durations. One guy even suggested permanent durations for an non-elite enslave because they have been shown to be not significantly more powerful than hunter pets.
On that note, the demons themselves need a slight buff while enslaved to make the reward a bit closer to the risk. They also didn't make note of the bug that comes with these summons, being the "going blue and despawning" bug.
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In one of the previous patches (1.3 or so), we ran BRD with a 'lock that was able to hold his demon pretty much permanently. Every 4 minutes or so, he'd park the demon, back up, wait for enslave to break, cast CoS really quickly, and reenslave. This was a huge pain -- it disrupted the flow of the party so consistently that I thought this was more than enough price to be paid for the damage done by his demon doggie. His pet did ~130 DPS if I remember correctly, which was more than he'd get out of any other pet at that level, so it was still worth the pain.
Fast forward to today, and enslave as it currently sits is pretty much not worth using. Given that Things Go Wrong™ all on their own, there's no point in introducing a cantankerous pet into the mix, regardless of what sort of damage it might do.
Somewhere in between is a balance point which I'm starting to despair of ever seeing. Maybe the idea of a semi-permanent pet and a "feed pet" type of skill would be the best. Given pet performance like a hunter, it only seems reasonable that we shouldn't have to work too much harder than a hunter to manage our pets. Maybe Warlocks should have the ability to enslave one demon and keep him as a "custom" pet, similar to the Hunter ability to train the beasts that they find in the wild. That would mean that you could dismiss and re-summon the demon, and you would have to somehow manage the happiness of your demon just like a hunter. Using shards as food seems like a reasonable approach.
I still think though that Infernals and Doomguards should be on a higher level than "pets", and a lot of players still have the expectation that they should just summon one up and have it follow them around happily. I'd personally still like to see it as a higher risk/higher reward thing than just another pet.
Kv
Warlocks Getting Buffed - KiloVictor - 05-10-2005
MongoJerry,May 10 2005, 02:04 PM Wrote:Listening to the complaints, it seems like what you want is a "warlock wins all fights" button no matter how many opponents you're up against. Thank God the developers don't listen.That's my big frustration with the official forums of course, the kids there seem to want a really user-friendly high-power class, and I don't think that's what the game needs.
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The idea of an escape mechanism is one really good example of this. A 'lock that is properly prepared (i.e. has the right pet out at the moment) has a bagful of tricks to escape a given situation. A 'lock caught unawares is easy pickings, which IMO is how it should be. Why should warlocks have any better escape tools than any other class?
There clearly are issues with the class, and I think it must have more skill/talent bugs than any other class, but I'm sure glad Blizz isn't going with majority rule in fixing it. Now if we could only get the developers to give up the assinine concept of a shard bag...
Kv
Warlocks Getting Buffed - vor_lord - 05-10-2005
Artega,May 10 2005, 12:38 PM Wrote:I see Paladins charge a 20-man raid and get away completely unharmed. Granted, they don't really do much of anything (usually a Consecration or something else to annoy and scatter people), but they have NO problem getting away.
Pfft. A paladin can get away back to the protection of his own lines in these kinds of situations, but the same is accomplished by a mage backing up five yards. At least the mage can do some damage before he does so.
Quote:I've seen then bubble, mount, and ride off.
Don't tell me you can't get away when you want to :P
Doesn't PvPing usually involve being in combat?
So -- "I can't get away when I want to" :D (hearthstoning is lame).