I recommend you Dragon´s Crown

[kandrathe]

... I mean, the likes of Glenn Beck, Rush, or Alex Jones have nothing on this fellow. ...

Wicked burn, bro. Way to bury the hatchet.

[Hammerskjold]

More seriously... When it comes to assessing video games, wouldn't it be more accurate to judge the entire integrated game experience including the visual, aural, mental challenge, and kinetics?

Well unfortunately I didn't have that much time trying it out at one of my friend's place.

But I am definitely looking to buy this game on sale. So I can bug them with 'Come on...Dragon Crown!', instead of 'Come on...Mystara!'

Character graphics controversy aside, I like the music on DCrown, better than 'Chronicles of Mystara'. Mystara is ok, but fairly generic.

DCrown's background music is decent enough that I won't reach for the mute button immediately. I probably will eventually, but not as quick with Mystara.

There is a Monty Python reference in the game, so it does have a sense of humour despite the ahem. Possible controversial visuals. At least to me.

I still have to get used to the controller, not the fault of the game but because I'm a mouse and keyboard guy.

/Shakes fist at devil's contraption of modern thumbstick and trigger console controllers. In my day a Direction pad and 4 buttons was good enough.

edited ps. It's s'aright kandrathe, it's true. I love Rush. 'Fly By Night' is a great album. But I did promise to be more on topic, so let's stick to re: DCrown and it's artz.

Did you say something about a rabbit?
http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Killer_Rabbit

[Bolty]

post continuing the argument I thought might actually end here, but apparently didn't

Dude.

[DeeBye]

post continuing the argument I thought might actually end here, but apparently didn't

Dude.

Welcome to the Lurker Lounge.

[Mavfin]

Ok. This thread is *almost* as fun as the threads discussing men who play female characters in MMOs and their imagined failings, as well as their probable sexual orientations.

And, guys, ffs, this discussion NEEDS MORE PICS. especially like the one of the girl cosplaying a sorceress in the discussed game, if I read it right! Help us out here while I calm down from laughing.

Yes, the female models are over the top. And? Anyone who's played WoW knows that the best waggle of all the females in that game is on a race with hooves. As far as boobs..."Yes, they're real. And they can cut glass!"

Art? Let's not get sidetracked into religion here (on the Lounge? Never!), but, I still think the best artist of female forms is whoever or whatever guides the forms of all these pretty women I see in the real world every day. Art can't compare, imo.

[DeeBye]

I still think the best artist of female forms is whoever or whatever guides the forms of all these pretty women I see in the real world every day.

Dude, stop ogling my wife.

[Hammerskjold]

Art? Let's not get sidetracked into religion here (on the Lounge? Never!), but, I still think the best artist of female forms is whoever or whatever guides the forms of all these pretty women I see in the real world every day. Art can't compare, imo.

I once had a serious crush on (2d, not 3d cosplay) Sailor Jupiter and Sailor Mercury. I love our 3d women. But I have no shame in admitting I once crushed hard for Jupiter and Mercury.

/take...on...me...(falsetto) take on me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914

And, guys, ffs, this discussion NEEDS MORE PICS. especially like the one of the girl cosplaying a sorceress in the discussed game, if I read it right! Help us out here while I calm down from laughing. Big Grin

Wish granted! Here is a Dragon Crown Amazon Cosplay!



Oh wait hmm...maybe that's a Manazon. Oh well, he still looks awesome to me.

edited ps( Manazon up there could use some more protein shakes and leg lifts, but I admire his Manazonian spirit.)

[Jester]

Wish granted! Here is a Dragon Crown Amazon Cosplay!

Oh wait hmm...maybe that's a Manazon. Oh well, he still looks awesome to me.

The costume actually looks a lot more epic, when you put it on someone with halfway normal proportions. Even if the boobs are a little small - needs a skimpy chainmail bra to finish the outfit.

At least he looks a lot sexier than Man-Faye.

-Jester

---

Dude, stop ogling my wife.

I just googled "DeeBye's Wife". The first hit is a stack of $100 CDN bills. So... you're married to Sir Robert Borden?

-Jester

[Bolty]

Dude.

Welcome to the Lurker Lounge.

It's not often that you literally mean "lol" when you write it, but I actually lol'ed. Touche!

And now to derail the thread further:



That...waist...

[kandrathe]

Oh wait hmm...maybe that's a Manazon. Oh well, he still looks awesome to me.

edited ps( Manazon up there could use some more protein shakes and leg lifts, but I admire his Manazonian spirit.)

Did I say it takes a brave woman to let it all hang out as cosplay? Well, obviously, it takes an even braver Manazon to show up in public... dressed... well, cough... we'll leave it at ahem... dressed.

[Hammerskjold]

...needs a skimpy chainmail bra to finish the outfit.

Look, I'm not going to get into a fight between what to call it, a Manzier or the Bro. That battle's been done.

But I will say, Chain Male-kini. It's gonna be the new swag hotness, must have mancessories.




On only a slightly more serious note. Some previous pages\posting ago you asked me (possibly hypothetically) what I would consider a fail for fanservice. At least if I read your intent right.

To me it's mostly the context. To give a concrete example, the lines of 'Disney Princess'.



Simply looking at that 2d image alone, setting aside the context for a minute. I have no real problems with it.

In the context of our 3d world, I have some serious questions and reservations about it. That's a graphic on a gift bag, which I can likely find on the toy section of the average walmart.

1) This is aimed at young people. At an age where they might not yet fully developed the -full- awareness, context, or the subtleties of why some of those facial expressions and poses can be considered, provocative.

I personally, wouldn't do a double take if I saw anyone of age wearing a Playboy Bunny logo t-shirt. I would have serious concerns if I saw an elementary grade person doing the same. It's not necessarily just the graphic alone for me, but the context.

2) Aside from something 'Stepford'-y about that gift bag graphic. I also don't like how there's something not true to the characters about it.




^
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That's Disney Princess Mulan, at least one version of that char. As a graphic alone, without context, I don't have a problem with it.

However I've seen the movie, I know slightly about the original story it was based on, and I loved the theatrical poster of it.



^
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Poster version of Mulan.

In artistic technical terms: A kick ass bold graphic and lovely design to my eyes. 10/10 badass warrior, would go to battle for, and with.

There's something so off to me about that Disney Princess version, in context and comparison to her movie character, it pisses me off. It's like someone at the House of Mouse gave this smart, brave, warrior princess character, a lobotomy. It's definitely not about the idea that females can't look pretty. It's certainly not about the idea that females are not allowed to want to look pretty. It's something else here that makes me cringe. It's the character lobotomy to me.

Now I have no problem with re-contextualizing, re-mixing, re-imagining, re-styling something. (Starwars Steampunk? Sounds cool, bring on SteamVader. edited addition: copyright legalities aside, that's a separate thread.)
With this kind of re-contextualizing however, there's something cringe inducing about it for my own sense and sensibilities. Which is why I probably enjoy some of the fan made 'Disney Princesses' more. eg: Disney Hipster Princesses.



^
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Totally Portlandia.

And yes, there are 3d cosplay examples.

Now IMO they are beautiful, sexy, ladies doing a pretty funny (to me at least) cosplay. I'd consider the image fairly safe for work. In as far as what the heck are you doing reading a videogame site while at work anyway?!












Well what does all that have to do with DCrown art?

(I'm getting to that Bolty, I know, I know, I'm pressing the court's leniency I'll wrap this up quick.)

Our 3d world context, retail space.
Here's the ESRB rating for the game.
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/synopsis.jsp...2950&Title=

To date, I haven't seen it's graphics pushed as merch in the same toy aisle as the Disney Princess. At least in my neck of the woods. Maybe in Japan they do have bento boxes for grade school kids featuring the Amazon. Dunno, I'll stick to N.America for now because that's where I live.

If and when I want to buy the game, I do have to go somewhat out of my way to purchase it. It's not super rare, but it's probably not CalloDuty popular. At least where I am.

Back to the graphics. When I look at all the character designs of DCrown, my reading is they're all pretty much 'what it says in the box'. Halloween witch sorceress, burly brawler dwarf, bulldog-body fighter, thighmaster busting amazon with a big axe, wizard robe wearing wizard, small elfin with large can't be missed bow.

Really exaggerated sure. I understand it can put off some people, I can grok that. Everything else in the DCrown themepark is just as exaggerated to my eyes. But for me, it does serve it's design purpose in that I can remember the chars basic general silhouette even from memory. Because they -are- so extremely exaggerated.


In closing, let's have a soda. Courtesy of Jester's Man-Faye.



Mmmmm.....Aaaahhh....so refreshing.

[Lissa]

Dude.

Welcome to the Lurker Lounge.

It's not often that you literally mean "lol" when you write it, but I actually lol'ed. Touche!

I like pie.

[Bolty]

There's something so off to me about that Disney Princess version, in context and comparison to her movie character, it pisses me off. It's like someone at the House of Mouse gave this smart, brave, warrior princess character, a lobotomy. It's definitely not about the idea that females can't look pretty. It's certainly not about the idea that females are not allowed to want to look pretty. It's something else here that makes me cringe. It's the character lobotomy to me.

Did you see what Disney did to the "princess" from the movie Brave? They took this:

And turned her into this:

There was quite a bit of uproar at the time and Disney backed off. It was especially upsetting because the character of Merida was one who precisely hated "girly" things. Didn't stop them from trying to sexualize her.

But I think that ties into this whole thread. Jessica Rabbit is supposed to be a sexual creature; that is the entire point of her character. The sorceress from Dragon's Crown is someone who slays evil things. It doesn't fit. Hence the controversy.

Anyway, cake rules. I think we can all agree on that.

[shoju]

This is entirely related to Bolty's Merida post. Skip if you don't care.

You know that Disney effed up, when Kids revolt.

I have 3 children. 16, 11, and 9. The oldest two are boys. My youngest, a girl. My daughter is not into girly things. She doesn't like Disney Princesses normally. For Christmas this year, her list was simple.

Nerf Guns
Spy Stuff
Remote Control Cars
iPod Nano

My daughter did however, LOVE Merida. LOVE doesn't quite encompass it thought. It was as if she had finally found a female character that Disney put out, that was like her. My daughter FINALLY had found a "Disney Princess" that she could emulate with some of her more girly friends, who liked to play "princeses" and that sort of thing.

We were cruising through Target one day, picking up a Birthday Present for one of her friends, and we came across the "revamp" (post uproar, changeover, whatever). This was the revamp of the revamp. She stared at Merida, and she was puzzled. And then she turned and looked at me, and said "Why did they change her?" I was curious what she meant, so I prodded her for details.

My daughter, who is too young to follow, or care, about the uproar online, was still able to tell that Merida was different. She was softer, prettier, she didn't look like the girl from the movies. And, the package didn't come with a bow and arrow.



It was just that doll, in a box. And my 9 year old daughter could tell that they had changed her. And she was certainly unhappy about it. While I don't think it's been a conscious decision, my daughter hasn't been as "in to" Merida since that day in Target, right after Christmas. The champion that she had found in this character, seemingly lost.

The problem with the sexualization of these characters, is a lot deeper than just stereotypes, and pushing negative body image. In some cases, it can alienate the very people you were trying to entice, or the demographic of people that you had already enticed.

For me? I'm pissed. I want my daughter to find who she is, and who she wants to be. Not was Disney wants her to be. Not was anyone else wants her to be. If my daughter wants run around the house setting up "spy stuff", and surprise ambushing me with her new fully automatic nerf gun (that kind of hurts to get shot with), because she is fascinated by spies, and the like, then that's fine. If she wants to be a "Merida" (movie) type nature girl, who doesn't want to get married, or have kids, or be what people want her to be, I'm (within reason) on board with that. I say within reason, because there are obviously some boundries involved.

And if she doesn't want to be a princess, or a girly girl, or a dress wearing girl, I'm ok with that too. I don't want her to be unhappy, and miserable with her life, purely because there is some unrealistic expectation of what she is supposed to be, because she has a vagina. And at this point, the very problem with marketing, is that companies haven't realized that not all girls want to be that girly girl, even in the not girly girl stuff. Have you seen the Lego sets for Girls? Have you seen the "nerf guns for girls?"

I guess I missed the point where a girl needed a Nerf Gun that was hot pink and purple, because that's for a girl. Why don't the normal nerf commercials show girls playing with their product? Why did Lego feel the need to market a way to "play house" with their lego sets, purely with girls in the ads? Why can't my daughter enjoy building the lego architecture collection (she loves it)?

Anyway, rant off.

[Tal]

It's not often that you literally mean "lol" when you write it, but I actually lol'ed. Touche!

And now to derail the thread further:

That...waist...

Pffft. Those thighs. "I'll have you know I can flatten steel with my thighs."

[kandrathe]

Societal gender role modeling, conformity, and expectations is a hard enough quagmire to wade through in a modern Internet image conscious society. I think it gets multiplicatively more complex when you toss in marketing, and sales of commercial materials, like video games who are employing artists to produce appealing content. All in all, we are talking about a product which is built to have a mass market appeal.

Now do we really have any "shock" at being a minority of consumers with "a particular conscience", when we can also note the obvious mass appeal of scantily clad buxom over-sexualized stereotyped princesses in video games. And, honestly, with many games there is an inner conflict between the father with a conscience in me, and my own puerile Id. With my children, I question how important the sexual part of Id gratification is compared to the violence part. I think sexuality is a natural thing, and being an adult I can appreciate it in 2D, 3D, VR, or real world. We probably can all agree that body image is quite messed up in our global society for both sexes (females more so). But, which is worse? Having a son who's ideal woman looks like that Dragon's Crown sorceress, or thinking that it's ok to frag his enemies, then teabag taunt their corpse? I opt to avoid both, and I don't mean to set up a false dichotomy.

For a parent selecting games for their children, then the point on the ESRB rating for the game is dead on. It pretty clearly says what it is. If you are parenting, then you should be guiding your child on appropriateness of all media purchases, until they won't let you anymore.

For discriminating consumers, C'est la vie.

If this is a part of some crusade to make a global shift on the proper non-objectification of women, then seriously, while I care and I'm on your side, I feel we've got other more important global concerns that I'll put my efforts behind (like stopping kidnapping, and sex trade of under aged girls in the real world). Let's start with changing minds of people who think that women driving, voting, or girls going to school is a bad thing, or that "shaming" the family is an extra judicial death sentence. The Rubenesque art of voluptuous female characters in Dragon's Crown are a bit of a triviality in the world of women's oppression, in the greater scheme of oppressed women. And... while I'm thinking about it... I also think the topic smacks a bit of the political correctness trumps artistic expression and freedom of expression, which I believe each of us also hold dear. George Kamitani should have the freedom to draw his artwork, good taste or not good at all, and market it as he pleases. And, of course we should have the freedom to whinge about it on a gaming forum. Thanks Bolty.

[Bolty]

Pffft. Those thighs. "I'll have you know I can flatten steel with my thighs."

Argh, twist the knife, will you? I really miss being Dwarf.

[LochnarITB]

Pffft. Those thighs. "I'll have you know I can flatten steel with my thighs."

Argh, twist the knife, will you? I really miss being Dwarf.

Ahh, Cleoboltra. I know a wise little gnome that had a secret crush on her!

[shoju]

Cleoboltra the dwarf was only surpassed in hotness, by Onisu, the sexiest Troll to ever grace Azeroth.



http://bassplayinninja.com/images/WoW/newmog-solo.jpg

too big to embed.

[DeeBye]

Dude.

Welcome to the Lurker Lounge.

It's not often that you literally mean "lol" when you write it, but I actually lol'ed. Touche!

Can I be a moderator?