I recommend you Dragon´s Crown

[Hammerskjold]

I am discussing the *design*, not the *artist*. What is it that is embodied by this... thing... that has been created?

Wanna walk that one back?

Your own words here, I'm not a mind reader so maybe don't be so shy, and pussyfoot around it. You might be discussing the design *now*, but that wasn't what came across a few posts back.

That's... I'm not even sure what that is. Someone's mommy issues with a staff and a hat?

That last sentence. Who exactly is the 'someone' you're referring to? The artist who did the design? The creative director who commissioned it? The CEO who approved the funding? Who, exactly? Be specific here, you won't hurt anyone's feelings.

In this context, afaik the lead artist and creative director is probably one guy, Kamitami. Because it is a fairly small company.

If it was another 'someone', or some vague disembodied concept of 'someone' that is somehow able to magically produce a piece of drawing\painting\artwork, then by all means. Please, clarify it for my curiosity.

Nobody (as best I know) dreams of being this character, only observing them.

I don't know her personally, but she's not a nobody. As best I know.



There are other examples, safe for work examples, when the incantations of Google + Cosplay + Dragon Crown Sorc is recited.

She just looks absurd. Pose, costume, anatomy, facial expression, the works. Pure sexual fantasy.

I know you're talking about the 2D design, now. But I hope you don't ever say anything like that to a woman who has no problems cosplaying a risque costume, or any woman who has curves and are proud of them. Because yeah, they do exist. And no, they don't appreciate being 'protected' while sounding like they're being shamed for their natural traits.

At least, the ones I know of.

This is a different kind of fantasy.

And not all fantasies are equal.

You know what enables the dress to stay up, the same thing that enables a dragons existence and a piece of armor pop out when you kill a level 1 creature who has no discernible place to hide humanoid armor.

You seem really defensive about this artist. I have no particular beef with him - I don't know him from Adam. I am criticizing these character models in this game. If he's usually better than this, then I'm willing to accept that. I have no dog in that race.

Nope, I'd defend -any- artists who has shown he\she has put the work in. My own interpretation or personal taste aside, there are objective metrics that can be used in an art critique. Exaggerating features\traits\aspects while keeping things legible is not as easy as it seems, and at the risk of '...dancing about architecture', you have to know the foundations down pat before you can even improvise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVvF7S2hW5U

Here's an example of Kamitami's older artwork for Shadow over Mystara.



The standing pose is fairly realistic representative style, with some features like the hands increased size slightly for readability. Spiky hair would take too much gel in real life, but considering the genre this is still fairly believable IMO. The silhouette is ok, nothing great but it's suppose to be a fairly relaxed pose. The action shot is great to my eyes, it's pushed, exaggerated, and has a dynamic gesture and silhouette. It leaps off the screen.

I actually like the drawing better from this era. But Dragon's Crown painterly technique is rich, lush, and gorgeous. The color range is not photorealistic, and it's not 'modern shooter vidyas realism' of digital bloom and brown with splashes of concrete grey.

I'd have liked to have seen a bit less fanservice on the sorceress model. But at least her design and poses suggested confidence and competence, rather than a snapped spine and sexual receptivity.

....It's called Feminine Charms, sir. It exists in 3d as well. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like badly done bikini armor, or overly gratuitous fanservice. In 2d, or 3d.

I can say what I like about their *designs*. They created them and released them into the world. That's not private. If I think they're nothing but pandering stereotypes, or juvenile power fantasy, I can say that. I don't have to say anything in particular about the artist, though I would surely like to talk to them about their choices. The DII designs are tight enough that I'm not going to kick up a fuss. Dragon's Crown is way, way over the line.

Again, who is 'they'? And why yes, you or anyone else can say what your opinion of the design is, and since 'they' put this out on a PS3 disc for sale, it's not private.

It is absolutely your right to have an opinion that says it's over -your- line. But -the- line? Yeah, no such agreed boundary there. At least, not anything I ever signed onto.

Regardless, you were the one who accused me of projecting mommy issues, and since that's about, you know, ME, maybe we ought not to talk too much about who has the right to say what.

See first paragraph of this post. I stand by my first impression, until you provide clarification. Who is this mysterious 'someone's' you're referring to? The artist? The creative director? The CEO? The magic art making fairy who works for a thimble of rum while the artist sleeps?

(edited for fumblefingering the preview vs update post.)

[Jester]

Who exactly is the 'someone' you're referring to? The artist who did the design? The creative director who commissioned it? The CEO who approved the funding? Who, exactly? Be specific here, you won't hurt anyone's feelings.

If it was another 'someone', or some vague disembodied concept of someone that you were referring to, then by all means. Please, clarify it for my curiosity.

I didn't mean anyone in specific, no. I meant to remark sarcastically on the fact that the sorceress does not appear to be anything at all, except perhaps a literal rack, off which you can hang T'n'A. This was obviously the artist's choice - the comment referred to what he was trying to depict in this illustration, not about his motivations. The sentence could read "If the dude above is an epitomized Knight, what is this epitomizing, someone's mommy issues with a staff and a hat? It's clearly not an epitomized sorceress."

As for who I would talk to about it, about whose designs they are? Kamitami.

I don't know her, but she's not a nobody. As best as I know.

(cosplayer)

There are other examples, safe for work examples, when the incantations of Google + Cosplay + Dragon Crown Sorc is recited.

TBH, I'm surprised by how few examples I find when I google the variations. There are four or five examples, and some different pics from the same cosplayer/photoshoot, then google runs dry. You can find someone interested in cosplaying just about anything, but I stand by the statement that is not generally a character women identify with.

As for the rest... I have little enough to say about the overall art style. It looks lush and colourful. But it is possible to be both a great artist, and paint sexist portrayals of women. There is absolutely no contradiction in that, nor have I suggested there is, so I'm just going to leave that entire "he put his time in, look how awesome an artist he is" stuff aside. It isn't the point.

It's called Feminine Charms, sir. It exists in 3d as well. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like badly done bikini armor, or overly gratuitous fanservice.

How you can write that sentence, and defend that depiction at the same time is simply a mystery to me. No woman can actually make that pose, and anyone who tried wouldn't look charming and feminine, they'd look like a contortionist. That's only "feminine charms" if that means "displaying as much boobs and butt at the same time as possible." If this passes the test for overly gratuitous fanservice, what is it that fails?

This is to say nothing of the *jiggle physics*.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

Not topic related, but the timing of the reply will seem disjointed due to my fumbling of the preview vs post button. That's my mistake, and despite the spirited debate (this or any other) I do care about clarity and communication with you Jester.

I didn't mean anyone in specific, no. I meant to remark sarcastically on the fact that the sorceress does not appear to be anything at all, except perhaps a literal rack, off which you can hang T'n'A. This was obviously the artist's choice - the comment referred to what he was trying to depict in this illustration, not about his motivations. The sentence could read "If the dude above is an epitomized Knight, what is this epitomizing, someone's mommy issues with a staff and a hat? It's clearly not an epitomized sorceress."

Ok. Again not something I necessarily agree with, but your phrasing is at least clearer.

TBH, I'm surprised by how few examples I find when I google the variations. There are four or five examples, and some different pics from the same cosplayer/photoshoot, then google runs dry. You can find someone interested in cosplaying just about anything, but I stand by the statement that is not generally a character women identify with.

Well, are we now in a territory where 4 or 5 examples is too few for a 'nobody'? This is the 'your' line, not -the- line situation all over again. At least, it looks awfully familiar to me.

Using your same reasoning, couldn't I also say any -one- can be offended, and (insert whatever number I arbitrarily choose) of examples is too few to be really counted, for realsies, I stand by my original statement that etc etc?

If that's your right, why would it -not- be mine as well?

[Jester]

Well, are we now in a territory where 4 or 5 examples is too few for a 'nobody'? This is the 'your' line, not -the- line situation all over again. At least, it looks awfully familiar to me.

If you're literally defending the statement "there exists a person who will cosplay this character," then yes, you're right.

I am saying this is not a character that, in general, people want to be, nor does it seem to be meant that way. It's a character people want to stare at, the fulfillment of a fantasy as an *object not subject*. A hypnotically ginormous rack to watch jiggling in the wind.

Using your same reasoning, couldn't I also say any -one- can be offended, and (insert whatever number I arbitrarily choose) of examples is too few to be really counted, for realsies, I stand by my original statement that etc etc?

If that's your right, why would it -not- be mine as well?

There are almost no absolute generalizations in the social sphere. If I said "people don't find Al Sharpton a very credible candidate for US President," you could fill an auditorium with people who strongly disagreed. Nevertheless, the statement is generally true.

So, yes. I stand by it. If your way of understanding tells you that a smallish handful of cosplayers falsifies my statement to your satisfaction, then you're entitled to interpret the world as you please. I just don't think it's very sensible.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

If you're literally defending the statement "there exists a person who will cosplay this character," then yes, you're right.

That literal statement, was from you sir. You wrote nobody wanted to cosplay this char. Here's a few people who did. Oh but that doesn't count, I don't mean that literally, -anyone- can and would cosplay anything. Big breasts remark.

... I mean with this kind of exchange. Should I break out the Alice (Gothic Lolita version) costume while you suit up as the Caterpillar or what here (tentacle monster version, but keep it pg 13 please, the venue could be all ages) . I don't have the feminine figure for it, but what the hey, I'm secure in my manhood, YOLO and such.

Our act can be one of us is pushing a goal post, while the other is pulling it back. The kicker is, there is no demarcation line, and the post just spins like a dial.

I sense...a best in show ribbon.

[Hammerskjold]

It's called Feminine Charms, sir. It exists in 3d as well. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like badly done bikini armor, or overly gratuitous fanservice.

How you can write that sentence, and defend that depiction at the same time is simply a mystery to me. No woman can actually make that pose, and anyone who tried wouldn't look charming and feminine, they'd look like a contortionist. That's only "feminine charms" if that means "displaying as much boobs and butt at the same time as possible." If this passes the test for overly gratuitous fanservice, what is it that fails?

This is to say nothing of the *jiggle physics*.

-Jester

I will defend the hyper exaggeration -2d- depiction, in a hyper exaggerated 2d world.

In -our- 3d universe, I can't defend a straight up conversion from 2d to our 3d realm, not just out of 'morality' but because of actual physical barriers.

If you were to port the fighter as is proportion wise, unconverted to our 3d space, he might have to be treated for polio.

But if it's such a mystery to you, I'll try to clear the air. 2d hyper exaggeration in a hyper exaggerated 2d world, where loin cloth and bikini armor is treated as normal, I really don't see a huge moral outrage. Or maybe, just not necessarily to the same degree as you. I do want to see how well done it is, out of my own personal interest.

3D has it's own rules for exaggeration, and I never confused the two. If there is a 'port', I never claimed it would be a straight as is with nothing changed.

It's a mystery to me, why you would think I'd treat 2d=3d. I said the thing exists in both realms. I never said they were identical.

Puhleze, a lil credit here.

edited for hopefully clearer meaning.

[Jester]

That literal statement, was from you sir. You wrote nobody wanted to cosplay this char. Here's a few people who did. Oh but that doesn't count, I don't mean that literally, -anyone- can and would cosplay anything. Big breasts remark.

Fine. And if what you want is an acknowledgement that you are technically correct, that there is in fact someone (indeed, apparently a handful of someones) who would want to cosplay that character, you already have it. Goal scored. Congratulations. You win the ribbon.

But the main point is not that there are absolutely zero such people. I am not writing a theorem. I am saying that there are two kinds of wish fulfillment characters in fantasy - those you want to be, and those you want to possess. The sorceress seems clearly in category two. I could be wrong, and testing it would take more time and effort than we have.

The boobs-and-butt pose is not just exaggerated. You can draw it with otherwise anatomically correct characters, although you have to snap their spines. The problem is that it's ridiculous and sexist. There is a meme entirely devoted to putting male characters in these same poses. The results are hilarious and disturbing. The same is *not* true of putting female characters in male poses. The way these characters are drawn, designed, posed and animated is deeply asymmetrical.

-Jester

---

I'm so going to quote you on that.

I try to let my actions speak for themselves. But sometimes, it's worth just admitting the truth. ;-)

-Jester

[LemmingofGlory]

It seems to me that Japanese video games are not afraid of mocking their audience while simultaneously providing them entertainment (see "No More Heroes"). In this respect, I feel that we should address the possibility that Dragon's Crown is in fact parodying our fantasy game expectations in much the same way that FIT is a parody of communists that we've continually mistaken for the real thing. We may have just been Poe's Lawing (extended form) at Japanese lolling.

The Amazon and Sorceress are simply grotesque. The Sorceress (http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Sorceress) cradles a skull on her boobs while supporting her broken back with a staff lodged firmly between her buttcheeks. Everyone I've ever seen discuss her splash image has been shocked at how it utterly fails to be erotic, and that may be precisely the point. Her character model may manage to come across as erotic to people who do not understand scoliosis and slipped discs, but I can't get over the fact that she's constantly swaying on her heels like a spinning top trying to keep balanced.

The Amazon's (http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Amazon) lower and upper halves are so incongruous they may well be from two different people entirely, her musculature may include muscles that don't actually exist, and it appears that gloves and boots are the only clothing in her kingdom that actually fit her proportions so she is doomed to wander about in a state of undress. She may be an ostrich in a human suit. Like the Sorceress, she appears to represent a distortion of our expectations that fantasy girls shall be sexy.

The Elf's thighs (http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Elf) do not appear to belong to her, and I believe her legs actually attach mid-back instead of at her pelvis, which appears to have been surgically removed from her character model. This reminds me of a common internet phenomenon wherein amateur male artists that attempt to draw boobs attach the boobs at the neck instead of to the chest. I get the impression from Hammer's posts that the Dragon's Crown artist knows enough human anatomy to understand where to attach body parts, so I must assume his choices are entirely intentional, right down to making the Elf's head too small for her body.

The Fighter (http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter) features the reverse disproportions of the Amazon; his body narrows so much as one traces his form from head to foot that you discover he wears shoes that come in only baby sizes (although adult shoes in baby sizes are just called "Rob Liefeld Signature Sizes"). The Wizard and Fighter (http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard) are both pretty boys who could easily star in yaoi together if their hands were just slightly bigger. Both seem unable to grow facial hair, defying the bearded and scruffy looks of wizards and fighters in most media. Neither of them invoke "cool" or "rugged" in my mind, which is the expectation from male fantasy characters.

The only male we see in any state of undress is the elderly, unexpectedly muscular Dwarf who also appears to take oil baths with his buds (http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Dwar...mitani.jpg), perhaps for the sheer fan disservice of it all. Again, our expectations are defied.

In any event, this looks like a game I shall play because it looks like it has a sense of humor about itself. And if it doesn't, I'll be laughing at it anyway.

P.S. http://psdo.tumblr.com/post/49951742582

[FireIceTalon]

It seems to me that Japanese video games are not afraid of mocking their audience while simultaneously providing them entertainment (see "No More Heroes"). In this respect, I feel that we should address the possibility that Dragon's Crown is in fact parodying our fantasy game expectations in much the same way that FIT is a parody of communists that we've continually mistaken for the real thing. We may have just been Poe's Lawing (extended form) at Japanese lolling.

I'm not sure parody is the right word here.

As far as my views go, they aren't a parody - they are very much in line as a continuum of the theoretical framework of which Marx and Engels wrote. A parody would imply that I'm not a communist and that I have been trolling all along in my time here - I can assure you that isn't the case. The arguments typically made against communism (here or in the real world) have nothing to do with communism, they are just a strawmen created by anti-communists, pro-capitalists, right wingers, etc have setup in an (faulty) attempt to demonize or "disprove" communism. Stalin, Mao, or Pol-Pot would be parodies (or caricature is perhaps a better word to describe them) of communists - as they are not a theoretical continuum of Marx/Engels, and they certainly provide an excellent tool for perpetuating the previously mentioned strawman arguments that are so commonly made.

Anyways, the objectification of women as sexual objects in video games is nothing new, as sex is so highly regarded in our culture that it is naturally profitable to market it in any realm of entertainment - but I thought this particular game went really over the top and blatant with it. That sorceress doesn't look like some hero fighting villians, she looks like a BBW cougar thats performing a strip-tease. It all goes back to women being necessarily treated as second class citizens so the patriarchs of society do not lose their privileges - that isnt profitable so it cannot be allowed to happen! The video game industry and gaming world though is probably even more reactionary than the film industry (pornography aside, as that is in a class of its own).

[Hammerskjold]

Fine. And if what you want is an acknowledgement that you are technically correct, that there is in fact someone (indeed, apparently a handful of someones) who would want to cosplay that character, you already have it. Goal scored. Congratulations. You win the ribbon.

...So you don't want to wear the Caterpillar costume?

Anyway, your sense and sensibilities are not the same as mine. The reverse is also true. Maybe, it's because of differing experiences that can shape a world view. Where you draw your own personal line may not match with mine, or anyone else's exactly.

Everyone has their own demarcation point, but there is no set in stone, commonly agreed line. The best you're ever going to get is a range in constant flux. That's because you're dealing with human beans.

I hope that's not news to you by this point.

The boobs-and-butt pose is not just exaggerated. You can draw it with otherwise anatomically correct characters, although you have to snap their spines.

There are many things that can only exist in the 2d realm, exaggerated or not. ( What is, flattened perspective in ancient Egyptian art, Alex?)

I personally have no problems with that concept, and I don't always need to have a 3d identical equivalent to justify the existence of the 2d version. My own taste or opinion aside.

Because maybe oh-idunno, sometimes there is no direct translation\equivalent possible between the two.



Here's Mrs. Jessica Rabbit. This is not a real life woman. No real life woman with her exact 2d proportions can exist in our 3d space. That's because Jessica Rabbit is a 2d construct.

She predates the DCrown Sorceress. She is one of the main characters in the film 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'. The film features many scenes of other western cartoon chars spanning different eras and style as well. Not just her and her cleavage, despite the numerous images of the char and youtube clips found online.

The problem is that it's ridiculous and sexist. There is a meme entirely devoted to putting male characters in these same poses. The results are hilarious and disturbing. The same is *not* true of putting female characters in male poses. The way these characters are drawn, designed, posed and animated is deeply asymmetrical.

If you mean the Hawkeye meme, yeah I'm familiar. And yes, I likes that meme. A lot of superhero western comics does have a problem on handling sexy vs sexist.

Lemming beat me to the clock on this one, but I think there is something worth noting in that Vanillaware is a Japanese studio. Japanese manga, animation, and vidyas can and does have a different sensibility than N.American ones.

The Hawkeye meme works, and works well when used with many western context to highlight a problem.

Not sure if it would work with a Japanese sensibilities, because I'd argue their range is quite wide vs western comics\toons. Asian and European comics\animation seem to embrace and accept 2d as a medium to tell any and all kinds of stories.

N. America for the most part, still treats it as a very limited genre. 'Childish 'pitcher books or cartoons' for people who haven't graduated to reading a real full book without pictures'. (edited to fix a mistake in previous sentence.)

This for example, is a clip from an anime series called 'Kill La Kill'. It has stripperific power costumes for the female protagonist and female antagonist. Like, to a super ridicilous level, to the point of ...this has got to be satirical.

However in this clip shown, this is the male supporting char, and put in various Hawkeye meme poses or as close as possible equivalent. Oh yeah, and his nipples glows.


(Fair warning for those who are sensitive to male nipples, even fabulous ones.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GuZfvid9rc

Could be just me, but he doesn't look ridicilous, or disturbing. He genuinely looks awesome fabulous with those hawkeye poses to my eyes.

TL,DR:

Jessica Rabbit is possibly a distant relative to the DCrown Sorceress. Japanese anime can show a male char in a Hawkeye Meme pose with glowing male nipples, and I happen to find them fabulous, not ridicilous.

The barriers between 2d and 3d may exist for a good reason. If anyone were to directly transfer Rob Liefeld's characters into our 3d world without any translation.

You will have a lot of amputated characters screaming, 'MY HANDS AND FEET!!!111 WHERE ARE THEY?! Why Rob why...why did you cut my hands and feet off with the panel just because you have trouble drawing humanoid limbs...why....oh dear god I can't breathe...to much muscles on..my chest...guhrgle...

[Hammerskjold]

P.S. http://psdo.tumblr.com/post/49951742582

I read on the innernets (so must be true ) that Kamitami was a fan of golden axe as well.

And honestly, the graphics on that tumblr page looks like an only slightly crazier mashup of the original Golden Axe with DCrown.

I mean here is a char sheet sample from the original game, and I just realized that one of my favourite childhood game had almost everyone attired in pseudo BDSM gear. Well at least I still remember the He-Man cartoons didn't have any S&M inspired clothing. Uh...I'm pretty sure it didn't right.



10/10 Hairy Mansacs, would play that above mashup game, and see that musical you linked.


edited ps:

Both seem unable to grow facial hair, defying the bearded and scruffy looks of wizards and fighters in most media. Neither of them invoke "cool" or "rugged" in my mind, which is the expectation from male fantasy characters.

It was quite hilarious for me to read some of the reactions when the fighter took off his helmet...and instead of a massively square jawed 'grizzled space marine face model 1.09' Solid Snake Pliskin type face\head.

It was a beautiful, beautiful Zoolander grade male model face. Complete with Fabio hair.

Every time someone gnashed their teeth and says 'he looks too emo!111', my inner smile just gets bigger and I say a lil prayer of thanks for those wacky Japanese studios: 'so...much.. win..'

[LemmingofGlory]

A parody would imply that I'm not a communist and that I have been trolling all along in my time here - I can assure you that isn't the case.

Oh, you.

The video game industry and gaming world though is probably even more reactionary than the film industry (pornography aside, as that is in a class of its own).

HE SAID THE WORD. HE SAID IT!

-Lem

[FireIceTalon]

Yes, me. The one and only.


Indeed I said the word (whatever one you are referencing), along with some other words. Your point?

[kandrathe]

Who buys console video games? It must be those reactionary 13 year old boys. This is why console video games are replete with fantasy characters. And, yes Jester, some women want to be noticed for their curves to the extent of dressing it up for Cosplay. The 13 year old boy in me still has a secret crush on Ivy from Soul Caliber. It's a brave women who'll cosplay her.

Then... there is over the top. I mean... why is the GTA series one of the best selling console games of all time? Isn't this a bit of an embarrassment for all console gamers? I don't own them, so I'm only going by hearsay. I understand the game play consists entirely of violent antisocial behavior.

Sometimes the gratuitous sexuality just reeks of a marketing department trying too hard, such as Summer Heat Beach Volleyball. Lemming's point about the Japanese video game industry is also valid -- but why stop at Japan? The US is a land of puritanical double standards, and perhaps Europe to a lesser extent. It's OK for a female fantasy character the kick the crap out of you, so long as you cannot be attracted to her while she's smacking you down. Unfortunately, I've not come across a Soviet era video game, since I'm sure they'd have treated women fairly. Yeah, right.

Oh, I see the PLA has a new video game out where you get the gun down the evil Americans.

Let's see how fair they are with the female heroines?

[Hammerskjold]

...she looks like a BBW cougar thats performing a strip-tease.

Man...the attitude here is sure turning into 'slut shaming'.

Amazing what one 2d drawing can bring out in some people.

I wonder if the people that are so outraged and frothing ever spent some time interacting with women. Would they ever say the same thing to a 3d woman's face I wonder?

[Jester]

Here's Mrs. Jessica Rabbit. This is not a real life woman. No real life woman with her exact 2d proportions can exist in our 3d space. That's because Jessica Rabbit is a 2d construct.

She predates the DCrown Sorceress. She is one of the main characters in the film 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'. The film features many scenes of other western cartoon chars spanning different eras and style as well. Not just her and her cleavage, despite the numerous images of the char and youtube clips found online.

Jessica Rabbit is exactly right. She is a character created to be the ultimate sex object, taken up to 11 with the power of cartoon animation. And she is precisely fit for purpose - in creating a noir/comedy/cartoon movie, she is exactly the right mix of commentary, parody, and epitomization. The trophy wife. The damsel in distress. The femme fatale, but without much fatale.

The sorceress in Dragon's Crown is *even more* hypersexualized than Jessica Rabbit. And she's supposed to be starring in an action game, which one might think would call for a different kind of character? But no.

It's not that I object to the existence of Jessica Rabbit. It's that I object to action heroes being depicted as Jessica Rabbit (or worse), just because that's apparently what "sexy" means, in depicting women.

meme, yeah I'm familiar. And yes, I likes that meme. A lot of superhero western comics does have a problem on handling sexy vs sexist.

Sure does!

But this is Japanese, so... sexism is not a thing? I don't get it. Japan has been deeply integrated into "western" culture for seventy years now, and in close contact for the century before that. The entire genre of Japanese comics and animation grew up in an era deeply influenced by, and in dialogue with, the English-speaking world. Feminism is not a new thing to the Japanese.

N. America for the most part, still treats it as a very limited genre. 'Childish 'pitcher books or cartoons' for people who haven't graduated to reading a real full book without pictures'. (edited to fix a mistake in previous sentence.)

Are we living in a pre-Alan Moore world? Has Neil Gaiman gone down the memory hole? Comics and animation left the "pitcher books and cartoons" world over two decades ago.

This for example, is a clip from an anime series called 'Kill La Kill'. It has stripperific power costumes for the female protagonist and female antagonist. Like, to a super ridicilous level, to the point of ...this has got to be satirical.

However in this clip shown, this is the male supporting char, and put in various Hawkeye meme poses or as close as possible equivalent. Oh yeah, and his nipples glows.

If you've got a world where everyone is ridiculously sexualized, then I haven't got any objection to that. He does look pretty awesome, in a hilarious sort of way.

The barriers between 2d and 3d may exist for a good reason. If anyone were to directly transfer Rob Liefeld's characters into our 3d world without any translation.

You will have a lot of amputated characters screaming, 'MY HANDS AND FEET!!!111 WHERE ARE THEY?! Why Rob why...why did you cut my hands and feet off with the panel just because you have trouble drawing humanoid limbs...why....oh dear god I can't breathe...to much muscles on..my chest...guhrgle...

One can draw two conclusions from that. One is that 2d and 3d are fundamentally different, and that's the source of our problems. The other is that Rob Liefeld is a terrible artist who draws things that are both absurd and deeply sexist (both in his depictions of men and women) and that the problem lies with his character design, and not the idea of moving from 2d to 3d.*

I'm going with the second conclusion, myself.

-Jester

*I get that there are purely technical challenges to this, and that there are shortcuts and techniques that one takes in 2d design that wouldn't fly with a 3rd dimension. (Escher pushes this to the maximum.) But that is emphatically not what this is - the character is obviously non-functional even in 2d.

---

Man...the attitude here is sure turning into 'slut shaming'.

Amazing what one 2d drawing can bring out in some people.

I wonder if the people that are so outraged and frothing ever spent some time interacting with women. Would they ever say the same thing to a 3d woman's face I wonder?

Are you talking to me with that comment? Or are "some people" just FIT?

-Jester

[Jester]

I mean here is a char sheet sample from the original game, and I just realized that one of my favourite childhood game had almost everyone attired in pseudo BDSM gear. Well at least I still remember the He-Man cartoons didn't have any S&M inspired clothing. Uh...I'm pretty sure it didn't right.

Golden Axe looks fine to me, and always has. Both genders (and the dwarf, I guess?) are given distinctive, but equivalent treatments. Both cheesecake, both pretty sexualized, but basically just going with the "mostly naked barbarians" thing, girl in a bikini, guy in a speedo. They both get roughly equivalent poses. It works, in a corny '80s kind of way. The sexual dimorphism is kept to levels not that far from reality. Everyone looks like they could actually support their own body mass - comfortably, even!

Are you not getting how I can like the designs on Golden Axe, and find the ones for Dragon's Crown sexist? It doesn't seem that tough to me.

Here are Tyris' poses:



Why not do that? Powerful, practical, heroic poses. (They could be a little more iconic, a little less rotoscoped, but why mess with success?) The kind of thing an action hero would do. Nothing in there looks stripperiffic, even if she is in a bikini.

-Jester

[FireIceTalon]

Are you talking to me with that comment? Or are "some people" just FIT?

-Jester

He did quote me directly, so I'm pretty sure it is in reference to me.

Of course as usual he has no clue as to what he is talking about. And Hammer, I was probably having interactions with females before you had peach fuzz on that pea-sized nutsack of yours.

No one here is doing any slut shaming kid, but it is this kind of artwork that PROMOTES "slut shaming", which is part of the basis of my critique - you would see this if you could pull your head out of your ass for just a moment.

The word slut in itself is extremely reactionary, developed historically to discriminate against or describe women who dared have more than one sexual partner: typically "lower class" women, which comes from the antiquity of a male-dominated ruling class that understood women had to be limited to one sexual partner in order for their children and futures descendants to inherit their wealth. These are the historical roots of sexism, and where the context of terms such as "slut", "whore", and the like come from and how and why they are still used today.

[Jester]

The word slut in itself is extremely reactionary, developed historically to discriminate against or describe women who dared have more than one sexual partner, typically "lower class" women, which comes from the antiquity of a male-dominated ruling class.

Its origins are as meaning a woman who is slovenly, and that was pretty much how it was used right up until the mid-20th century - mostly meaning dirty, rather than promiscuous.

-Jester

[DeeBye]

And Hammer, I was probably having interactions with females before you had peach fuzz on that pea-sized nutsack of yours.

Wicked burn, bro. You clearly took him down a peg or two.