I recommend you Dragon´s Crown

[gronbek]

Hello,

Dragons Crown is a heck of a fun game. Kept my interest far longer than both PoE and D3.

The combat is just awsome. It´s like a 2D Dark Souls.

Here is the most active forum. Oh and it is PS3 / VITA exclusive.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633261-dragons-crown

[shoju]

You lost me at the PS3/VITA exclusive.

I own a Wii, so my kids can play some Wii games, and I can play some GC titles. Other than that, my last Console purchase was a Dreamcast.

[kandrathe]

I had a Playstation, then PS2, and picked up a PS/One eventually. But, they lost me going to PS3, when all the prior games I owned wouldn't play on PS3.

The PS equipment and games are hooked up to an old TV in my sitting room. Whereas, the XBox, and Wii are upstairs in the more oft used Family room. We changed out the furniture there to collapsible stuff to better allow for making it into a Kinect / Wii friendly zone.

[Hammerskjold]

You lost me at the PS3/VITA exclusive.

I own a Wii, so my kids can play some Wii games, and I can play some GC titles. Other than that, my last Console purchase was a Dreamcast.

That pesky 'sclusivity issue aside, and I actually want this game on PC.

If anyone is a big fan of Capcom presents: D&D Tower of Doom, this is -the- spiritual successor IMO.

I'll state my bias upfront, I played the hell out of Tower of Doom*, my friends groan when I plead for a multiplayer session of Tower of Doom on their console, and I am a big fan of the lead artist George Kamitami's artwork.

He went on to become iirc, the founder \ ceo of the studio that made Dragon's Crown.

I don't have a PS3, but I may buy it if there's a slight price drop so I can support Vanillaware with my meagre coins. And to get the gorgeous artbook.

Though looky looky, Chronicles of Mystara is now on steam?!

http://store.steampowered.com/app/229480/

Now if only Sega creates a true spiritual successor to Golden Axe...

edited addition: Woops, I meant Tower of Doom sequel, Shadow over Mystara. Though I played Tower of Doom as well.

[FireIceTalon]

I know the objectification of women in MMO's (having them scantily clad with large breasts and buttocks exposed) has been par for the course for some time now, but holy shit this game takes it to a new level.

[kandrathe]

http://kotaku.com/the-artist-behind-drag...-482450927

Here's the entirety of George Kamitani's letter, republished with his and Atlus's permission:

Thank you for contacting me; I am George Kamitani from Vanillaware.

I’ll go into detail about the reasons behind some of Dragon’s Crown design concepts.

I believe that the basic fantasy motifs seen in Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien have a style that is very attractive, and I chose to use some orthodox ones in my basic designs. However, if I left those designs as is, they won’t stand out amongst the many fantasy designs already in the video game/comic/movie/etc. space. Because of that, I decided to exaggerate all of my character designs in a cartoonish fashion.

I exaggerated the silhouettes of all the masculine features in the male characters, the feminine features in female characters, and the monster-like features in the monsters from many different angles until each had a unique feel to them. I apologize to those who were made uncomfortable by the art’s appearance, and did not see the same light-hearted fantasy in my designs.

I don’t harbor any ill-will to Jason Schreier for the article he originally posted about the Sorceress or his follow-up. Although it may be negative feedback, I am very thankful for having one of our titles being covered. I do understand what Jason and the rest of the discussions on the internet are saying for the most part. I am not sure if I can implement the critiques from him and others around the internet into my future artistic creations, but I will definitely keep in mind that these opinions are out there and affect people on a personal level. I feel that any form of media content faces death when it doesn’t receive attention at all. So, be it criticism or support, I am truly thankful for the people talking about Dragon’s Crown and the people discovering Vanillaware for the first time.

In regards to the Dwarf image I posted on my Facebook page: This image was never intended to attack Jason. Originally, it was a promotional image that I created for my fan base in Japan, which I posted to the official Vanillaware Twitter account earlier.

We receive many requests from companies to create publicity illustrations for the game, but we never received any requests for the Dwarf. Also, as the game’s street date nears, most retail shops start requesting exclusive art for their retailer-exclusive bonus items. In Japan, these illustration requests can even be as specific as something like female characters in swimwear. In these requests as well, the Dwarf was nowhere to be seen.

So, I decided to unofficially draw a sweaty Dwarf in a bathing suit, with a bit of cynicism towards those retailer requests. I drew 3 of them to show that there are character color variations available.

However, this image is something I created on my own, and will not see the light of day in any publication. I felt it was a shame to just throw it out, and thought I’d just post it on my own Facebook. That’s when I remembered Jason’s article and thought that I’d post it as a little joke with a comment. I used an automated translator to try and make a lighthearted joke in English, but clearly that wasn’t the case. I was very surprised to see the crazy aftermath.

It’s okay if it was just me who was criticized, but it is not my intention to cause problems for Dragon’s Crown publisher (ATLUS) and all the other people who are involved in this project. From now on, I will limit myself about transmitting something personal out in the public.

Also, it would be very appreciated if you could please contact Index Digital Media, Inc. if you plan to make anything related to this matter, including this e-mail, into an article.

Lastly, please tell Jason that I am sorry for causing him trouble, and also to please don’t let my actions cause him to shy away from Vanillaware products…

Good bye, and thank you.

[Hammerskjold]

Someone should start a Kickstarter crowdfunding for a proper clothing pack for this awful awful KKKapitalizt Patriarchal Priveledge Training Simulation!


Like say, identical, featureless silhouette, sack cloths. Or Mao worker shirts. Or something like this.




Everyone else who has common sense and doesn't have a Che' beret complex, can simply oh I wonder..oh yeah. Maybe just not buy the game if they don't like it.

Myself, I might buy 2 copies now. I actually like Kamitami's art Tower of Doom era more than Dragon's Crown. Dragon's Crown is more painterly gorgeous, while Tower of Doom is more classic draftsmanship. Both styles shows an artist who is so skilled that he makes it looks easy. Regardless of the subject matter or the subjective style he chooses, his technique is impeccable.

So if me buying a copy means Kamitami and his company can continue to produce their work, and as a side effect brings outrage and tears from a wannabe Che' Crusader, then that's a bonus too.

(edited for better image link.)

[Hammerskjold]

http://kotaku.com/the-artist-behind-drag...-482450927

Don't stoop by defending the obviously sexist pig Bourgeois KKKapitalist of a so called, 'artist'.

I mean, I would like to know why there isn't anymore outrage, outrage I tells you with sexist 'art'!

For example, Kamitami obviously stole a large part of his style from an older predecessor sexist pig artist. And I think I know who. Who is the male chauvinist pig responsible for this reprehensible sexist style?!!11


WARNING, Sexist Patriarchy Image coming up as an example. Gird thine eyes good comrades!

[DeeBye]

WARNING, Sexist Patriarchy Image coming up as an example. Gird thine eyes good comrades!

Now you're just trying too hard.

[Hammerskjold]

WARNING, Sexist Patriarchy Image coming up as an example. Gird thine eyes good comrades!

Now you're just trying too hard.

Too hard?! It's never too hard, not when it comes to defending boobies in art, and for art!



Anyhow, Dragon's Crown is 50 bucks at my local bestbuy, 40 bucks for the vita version at another store. I might buy the ps3 version, just so I can drag my friends for some old school meatspace, multiplayer hack and slash action.

[gronbek]

Hey folks.

The art in DC is fantastic. Both men and women in the game are exaggeratedly portraied. This is art and art as we all know does have no boundaries.

Anyway, the thing i like the most about DC is the random loot a'la diablo and the good combat mechanics. Quick game sessions is also welcome.

I only play the ps3 version since my eyesight is getting worse when you are getting older. I am 45.

Br Anders

[Jester]

Both men and women in the game are exaggeratedly portraied.

Right. The men are all hyper-exaggerated male power fantasies. And so are the women.

See? All equal.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

Both men and women in the game are exaggeratedly portraied.

Right. The men are all hyper-exaggerated male power fantasies. And so are the women.

See? All equal.

-Jester

Here's a pic of the male fighter, with his helmet off. Maybe it is just me, but there is a 'Fabio' harlequin book cover aspect to it.
(edited addition: Broad shoulders and big muscular arms on a male humanoid are not solely a male power \fulfillment fantasy.
There are some women who find that physical trait attractive. Shock and vapours, I know right. But that's humans for you.)



The rest of the poses, are obviously exaggerated gestures. And you know what, their silhouette looks great for visually communicating to me, what the character is doing.

Does that mean I always want every female and or male characters in every video games to be this exaggerated, no. There is an excellent case to be made that the vidyas can use more believable characters, and not just visually speaking.

With that said, this looks like a clearly labeled as such, fantasy game that uses a visual caricature style. It doesn't resemble or contain that much actual body types found in real life. It has situations involving dragons and creatures that doesn't seem to be in our realm of reality either.

And for my coin, that's fine. If anyone do not like it for whatever reason, that's fine too. Last I looked this was not an item anyone is forced to buy.


Beyond the 'OMG Big Boobies and Bulldog Bodybuilder' controversy, the artwork of this game also contains depiction of food. Gorgeously exaggerated, overly sensual, 18th century still life style, delicious looking food.



From the site that I linked the picture from.

http://theglorioblog.com/2013/12/23/the-...-he-likes/

Best Most Controversial Video Game
Dragon’s Crown

Dragon’s Crown is an addictive, beautifully crafted homage to the side scrolling beat ‘em up games of my youth. However, there are problematic aspects of the art style that leave me conflicted. The game is certainly fun to play, but the depictions of food drawn by artist George Kamitani are gross exaggerations of reality. Personally, I find them offensive and degrading to real food. It’s like the images were ripped from some sick Chef’s fantasy, to the point where I don’t know how anyone else could enjoy or appreciate this game.

I don't always see vegetables that vivacious in real life. I don't go for escargot', but that depiction makes it look like the finest delicacy I want to sample. The marbling on that meat looks to be at least 70% fat. Something in real life, I would not buy or eat. But here it looks so sensual and mouthwatering.

It makes me question why the artist(s) wants to confuse me with such great looking fantasy visuals, when real world reality is rarely that vibrant looking.

Maybe they're secretly trying to peddle me food porn in the guise of a side scrolling brawler game?

Outrage and harumph.

[Jester]

Here's a pic of the male fighter, with his helmet off. Maybe it is just me, but there is a 'Fabio' harlequin book cover aspect to it.
(edited addition: Broad shoulders and big muscular arms on a male humanoid are not solely a male power \fulfillment fantasy.
There are some women who find that physical trait attractive. Shock and vapours, I know right. But that's humans for you.)

To be clear, this is not about the following: Things which are sexy. Things which are exaggerated. Things which are vibrant. Things which communicate visually in bold ways.

This is about the following: hypersexualization, reducing otherwise interesting characters to sex objects.

If you wanted to make a hypersexualized male, this is maybe a 6/10. Broad shoulders? Okay. Bishi good looks? Check. But other than that? He's a gigantic dude in plate mail with a big sword. If I wanted to go-a-demon-slaying, that's the guy I want to be. Fully clothed, heavily armed, well-protected, and if he's sexy, it's clear his primary purpose isn't to be sexual.

Compare:

Um. That's not an exaggerated sorceress, like dudebro up there is an exaggerated knight. That's... I'm not even sure what that is. Someone's mommy issues with a staff and a hat? The knight dude gets classic superhero strength poses. The sorceress pose is 100% boob-'n-butt, which is not only anatomically impossible, but completely useless for any combat of any kind. She's at equal risk of falling out of her dress, and falling over.

These are not of a kind.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

To be clear, this is not about the following: Things which are sexy. Things which are exaggerated. Things which are vibrant. Things which communicate visually in bold ways.

This is about the following: hypersexualization, reducing otherwise interesting characters to sex objects.

If you wanted to make a hypersexualized male, this is maybe a 6/10. Broad shoulders? Okay. Bishi good looks? Check. But other than that? He's a gigantic dude in plate mail with a big sword. If I wanted to go-a-demon-slaying, that's the guy I want to be. Fully clothed, heavily armed, well-protected, and if he's sexy, it's clear his primary purpose isn't to be sexual.

Compare:

Um.

-Jester

...and if he's sexy, it's clear his primary purpose isn't to be sexual.
-

I know some real life women who would disagree with that assessment.
Broad shouldered, big armed, in literal armor, with gorgeous bishi Fabio face? Seriously, I once went to a Medieval Knights dinner and tournament.

There was no shortage of women there who figuratively, and sometimes literally swooned. A few were looking at the Knights with hungry eyes. And this was after the feast was served.

Re: the fighter sword, is actually not that big. INB4 Freud.

You say this is not about exaggeration, you say get that and you understand it. Yet you still say 'how does her dress even hold up?'. It's suspended by disbelief and fantasy. That and magic tape.

If you have a complaint that males are the only one fully clothed in this game, well there is the no shirt wearing barrel chested, muscular Dwarf. And before anyone says 'that's not exactly sexy for women'....let's just say I know some women who again, would absolutely disagree.

Anyhow, if anyone bothered with the artwork, bothers to look at how Kamitami approach his work, he draws the concept art first, then builds the game mechanics after. They might be surprised.

Look at the skeleton that is associated with the sorceress, yes I know the original pic you linked to emphasizes her large mammary glands. But this isn't just a case of hur durr, look at me I like painting bewbz.

Breasts\acorn has been used as a symbol of fertility and life, for quite a while now.



Again, crack open an art history book circa ancient roman times and other antiquity, where there was statues and painting of multi breasted\acorn figures. Kamitami is cheeky cheesecake compared to some of what can be found in art history.

That skeleton I mentioned, that isn't just some random element.

I'm glad that you did change the pre-edited zoomed in pic, because that seemed to imply that this game is nothing more than a male gaze simulator.


http://dragons-crown.wikia.com/wiki/Sorceress

^
|
|

Based on the info above, she sounds like a summoner\necromancer type. Why the big breastesess? She can also summon food. What's with the skeleton? This could be a visual pun.

ie: She's so sexy she can wake the dead.

But wait see, that's the whole point of hypersexualizing it!
Except, I really doubt there is a huge demand by people, who wants to play a heroic magician that looks like a 1000 year old dried up husk of a human shell. It's called fantasy for a reason.

You can say that you don't like the image\any kind of art work. That's perfectly fine. It's not to your taste, that's fine too. I would defend anyone's right to disagree on those things.

Saying that 'it's someone's mommy issues' with a hat and a staff? Um, projecting much?


Long story short.

The in game camera afaik, does not zoom into any cleavage and blows them up to 150% magnification. That's how some people might see the artwork, but that's not how it's actually presented in the game.

But if you really want me to cut to the chase. There are patently obvious, sexist, exploitive video games. It caters only to the male gaze, and cares nothing for any gameplay, or any other visual aspect other than T and A.

Dragon's Crown IMO, is not one of them. It's extremely easy to pick out the Sorceress and Amazon, and superficially say they're just walking breasts and thighs, see! Obvious sexism.

Link to zoomed in image of cleavage.

Um..done.

Except, if this was just a labour of lust for both bewbiez and money, the artist and the studio wasted a lot of time, effort, and money lavishing the same attention to detail and effort to the food, environment,
(edited change for better image link, the first didn't allow hot linking.)



and male characters.

If this is as badly male chauvinistic as some people claim it is, you would have few if any male chars. Everything but the boobs and ass physics would look and play like it's barely out of beta testing. Game play control would consist mostly of panty shots and one handed controller action. It would also likely be a subscription based 'MMOG'.

Playing this game at a friends house (he bought the PS3 version), I am not convinced it's just all about the 'bewbz' and hypersexualizing reduction. Sadly, there are more than a few vidyas that fits your claim. DCrown, is not one of them IMO.

Superficially it can look that way. Play the actual game even for a bit, or look at other art in the game besides -just- the Sorceress and Amazon, and you might revise your opinion. Or not.

I've offered my take on it, other than that I still want to buy the art book because I genuinely like the art in general and the studio.

If anyone else does not, or doesn't think it's art, that's fine too. I just want to support an artist with obvious mommy issues I guess.

[Bolty]

First of all, let's separate the gameplay for the graphics. Often in these discussions regarding titillating graphics in video games, there's a slant towards the suggestion that people are playing the game solely for these graphics. If you bring the conversation to that, you're attacking everyone who enjoys the gameplay and they'll fight back.

You can enjoy the game but find the graphics over-the-top.
You can also think the game is crap but "enjoy" the graphics.

But in any case, let's try to separate the two here. We're not debating if the game itself is poor, we're just talking about the graphics. I'll put this out here:

Obviously, Diablo II fans are just in it for the T&A. :p And that Sorceress rocking the bare midriff? I mean, come on. But seriously, there was quite a bit of talk about Diablo II's female characters at the time as well, and those are nothing compared to what's in Dragon's Crown. There's way too many pictures of the D2 Amazon using a bow and it would actually be very difficult to accurately fire a bow with...mammaries of that size.

That said, I used to subscribe to that belief that if a game hypersexualizes its women AND its men equally, it makes it okay. But honestly, that's a flimsy argument. Studies have shown time and time again* that men are visually stimulated moreso than women. It's not that women aren't necessarily interested in seeing gigantically overstrong men with bulging muscles - many (most?) are. But in general*, men get more out of seeing hypersexualized women than women get out of seeing hypersexualized men.

In Dragon's Crown, you can make the argument that the man is super-exaggerated physically, sure. He's also fully armored to the brim. He's not sporting a shirtless exaggerated Matthew Mcconaughey look, which would be more roughly equivalent gender-wise to what the Sorceress in the game is drawn as.

*citations needed, but I'm lazy

[Jester]

You're entitled to your opinion, and to spend your money how you like. But your defence seems to either misunderstand what I'm saying, or to intentionally confuse the issue to deflect from the obvious point. Not about shirtless people. Not about anyone's right to an art style. Not about realism. It's about the asymmetrical hypersexualization of female characters.

And yes, this happens in games I like. I don't have to like every aspect of something I enjoy. I also don't have to think a game is "nothing more" than a conduit for the male gaze, in order to think that the sorceress model is both sexist and ridiculous.

To be clear to everyone, I'm talking about the design, not about the players. People can like things for all sorts of reasons, and I've played plenty of games that suffer from these issues. Diablo (II more than I) wasn't exactly perfect on that metric, but it's a fair sight better than most. I can actually imagine the women fighting in that costume, within the universe they've created. I'm okay with weird universes and magical powers. I'm even okay with extremely sexualized worlds - actually, I prefer them, though this isn't much explored in most games.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

And that Sorceress rocking the bare midriff? I mean, come on.

Re: D2 sorceress. Undercleavage shown in her starting outfit.

Lod-Assasin. That to-to, tototo, thong! I raise my STR up so I can pull her pants up.

No srsly, I'm actually not a fan of 'bikini armor', and I hate when it's done badly in any medium. Read, almost all the time.


Jester wrote:

But your defence seems to either misunderstand what I'm saying, or to intentionally confuse the issue to deflect from the obvious point. Not about shirtless people. Not about anyone's right to an art style. Not about realism. It's about the asymmetrical hypersexualization of female characters.

I'll say this as respectfully and genuinely as possible.

You want me to talk about your obvious point, and not about what you think is deflecting the issue?

Then I suggest you don't casually throw around insinuations that an artist has 'mommy issues' when they draw a figure with bigger than life breasts. I also suggest not throwing around 'I understand it's fantasy, it's not about realism', then ask, 'well how does her dress hold up in actual battle then?'

Because in previous similar discussions you've shown you are capable of understanding the concept of separation of art and artists, and tropes (good or bad ones) of a genre.

For what little it's worth, examples of Kamitami's previous work is easily found online. And from what I've seen, he doesn't do big breast errwhere style, all day erry day.

You or anyone else is entitled to the opinion that the game's artwork shows one sided hypersexualization. I'm entitled to question whether that opinion is based on a superficial reaction, or a more thorough reading\look.

And anyone else is also entitled to question my questions. At least it keeps me honest (looking). Everyone is entitled, entitlements for everyone! Huzza!

Diablo (II more than I) wasn't exactly perfect on that metric, but it's a fair sight better than most. I can actually imagine the women fighting in that costume, within the universe they've created. I'm okay with weird universes and magical powers. I'm even okay with extremely sexualized worlds - actually, I of prefer them, though this isn't much explored in most games.

Again, D2 sorc, underboob. I don't care how skilled of an elementalist you are, unless she casted a perma spell of ward off hypothermia (off screen before hand), underboob exposure can be deadly when approaching Act 5 Harrogath climate.

The Corrupted Rogues enemy? They seem to gain more than a couple of cup sizes in their corrupted state vs regular rogues. Especially the ones wielding a spear. I don't remember any ingame\in universe explanation for that one.

LoD Assasin, one of my favourite class to play. What I honestly truly do not enjoy, putting STR up so she can wear pants, because otherwise she shows me her ass cheeks everytime she faces north of my monitor screen.

I appreciate the technical work that goes into modeling such a beautiful ass-pects. I really do. But I wouldn't mind if she has yoga pants\tights instead for her starting outfit. Still form fittingly sexy and fits her char.



Despite all that I don't and won't casually throw a personal insinuation on D2 artists (or any other artists), based solely on seeing a limited sample of their creative work. I don't have that right, nothing gave me that right as best as I remember.

If someone thinks they have that right, well where's -their- creative work? I wanna see\read\hear it. So I can also determine whether or not they have any 'issues'. Fair's fair, right?

That's it and that's all, everything else we can cordially agree to disagree on.

[Jester]

Then I suggest you don't casually throw around insinuations that an artist has 'mommy issues' when they draw a figure with bigger than life breasts.

I am discussing the *design*, not the *artist*. What is it that is embodied by this... thing... that has been created?

Nobody (as best I know) dreams of being this character, only observing them. She has exactly two exaggerated characteristics: Boobs, and butt. Her waist is shrunk to almost nothing in order to magnify those two characteristics. Her pose is so classically sexualized that there is a tumblr devoted just to chronicling its overuse. Maybe you have a very different version of heroism than I do, but those do not strike me as heroic characteristics. She does not look tough, or crafty, or stealthy, or capable, or mysterious - not even the cartoonishly exaggerated versions of those things. She just looks absurd. Pose, costume, anatomy, facial expression, the works. Pure sexual fantasy.

I also suggest not throwing around 'I understand it's fantasy, it's not about realism', then ask, 'well how does her dress hold up in actual battle then?'

Wielding powerful spells is fantasy. Being clad in armour and fighting epic battles is fantasy. Slaying dragons is fantasy. People cannot do these things - they are participatory fantasies, putting yourself in the role of someone who can have adventures that are beyond our ordinary life. If I could do those things, be that character, it would be awesome, at least on some dimension.

Having breasts the size of watermelons falling out of my clothes is fantasy, but not of that type. Perhaps my imagination is just too limited, but I'm not interested in putting myself in the role of someone whose magic power is to make her dress stay up, or to twist her spine into sexy but back-breaking poses. This is a different kind of fantasy.

And not all fantasies are equal.

Because in previous similar discussions you've shown you are capable of understanding the concept of separation of art and artists, and tropes (good or bad ones) of a genre.

For what little it's worth, examples of Kamitami's previous work is easily found online. And from what I've seen, he doesn't do big breast errwhere style, all day erry day.

You seem really defensive about this artist. I have no particular beef with him - I don't know him from Adam. I am criticizing these character models in this game. If he's usually better than this, then I'm willing to accept that. I have no dog in that race.

For what it's worth, I'm a huge fan of Phil Foglio, who has drawn several lifetimes' worth of big boobs. But somehow, he keeps it together, even when he is literally doing pornography.

You or anyone else is entitled to the opinion that the game's artwork shows one sided hypersexualization. I'm entitled to question whether that opinion is based on a superficial reaction, or a more thorough reading\look.

I haven't played the game, I don't know the artist. If you think those things change the context, I could look further. But it would take some very impressive world-building (not to mention a titanium corset) to support that sorceress model as anything but an egregiously sexist trope, pandering of the most basic kind. Even (especially?) great artists make mistakes.

Again, D2 sorc, underboob. I don't care how skilled of an elementalist you are, unless she casted a perma spell of ward off hypothermia (off screen before hand), underboob exposure can be deadly when approaching Act 5 Harrogath climate.

I'd have liked to have seen a bit less fanservice on the sorceress model. But at least her design and poses suggested confidence and competence, rather than a snapped spine and sexual receptivity.

Despite all that I don't and won't casually throw a personal insinuation on D2 artists (or any other artists), based solely on seeing a limited sample of their creative work. I don't have that right, nothing gave me that right as best as I remember.

I can say what I like about their *designs*. They created them and released them into the world. That's not private. If I think they're nothing but pandering stereotypes, or juvenile power fantasy, I can say that. I don't have to say anything in particular about the artist, though I would surely like to talk to them about their choices. The DII designs are tight enough that I'm not going to kick up a fuss. Dragon's Crown is way, way over the line.

Regardless, you were the one who accused me of projecting mommy issues, and since that's about, you know, ME, maybe we ought not to talk too much about who has the right to say what.

That's it and that's all, everything else we can cordially agree to disagree on.

Hi, I'm Jester. I argue until everyone involved passes out. Pleased to meet you.

-Jester

[Frag]

Hi, I'm Jester. I argue until everyone involved passes out. Pleased to meet you.

-Jester

I'm so going to quote you on that.