In depth, *realstic playtest and rant

[Ashkael]

I've taken several Necromancer builds through Hell in the 1.10 beta and they don't compare to my Battle.net Necromancer, so I've decided to wait until the final patch arrives to test with my Necro.

However, all you people wasting time whinning about the Necromancer have yet to notice that CE scaling is back, although it seems to be on a smaller magnitude for Nightmare and Hell difficulties. Anyway, if you are an avid Necromancer player then you surely know that a pumped CE is able to rip through hordes of Hell-8 monsters with little effort in 1.09. The only problem has been generating the very first few corpses to trigger the chain effect. With CE scaling back, obliterating hordes of enemies should be more easier now, so please don't come here saying that Necromancers have nothing to add to a party. However, it is true that the problem of generating that first body still remains, but a pumped Bone Spirit and some support from Poison Nova to soften up the enemies could help, especially with the new singergies and all that stuff.

I do agree with some of the people in this post that are whinning about the Necromancer's minions. They've never been anything more than simple damage sponges. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that in 1.10 skeletons are at least useful through Nightmare, and with some skill you could certainly make progress in Hell. What bothers me, though, are the golems. Traditionally, golems retained their usefulness as one-point tanks despite the fact that their damage sucked. With 1.10, not even a great investment in golem mastery is going to make that Fire Golem last, and the damage is still pathetic, effectively eliminating the tanking potential of golems.

It remains to see if Blizzard will address these issues regarding the Necromancer. In my opinion, Bone Spirit could be boosted even more, and the new damage output for Bone Spear coupled with some fast cast could make it a nice alternative to soften up the mobs before CE kicks in. However, as I said before I'm waiting for the final patch to take my old Necromancer for a spin and see how things turn out.

[Winter]

Hey! So i'm the guy who quoted you :P

One more thing. I think you give too much credit to blizzard assuming that they intentionally made CE balanced by making the rest of the necro's offensive capabilities incredibly weak. Do you honestly believe they intended for lvl 30 or so IM to be virtually ineffective in hell difficulty? By the same token, where is that sense of balance for other characters? I don't think it has ever existed. How else can you explain charged bolt becoming a tour de force?

I don't think they intentionally did. I think they threw stuff out there for the Nec, then tweaked away until it was "balanced". Even if the balance means you either win or lose near-instantly with no middle ground, it's still "balanced". I think Charged Bolt being uber was a "mistake" on Blizzard's part. I don't think they realized how the +Skills, +number of bolts, and +damage would combine to create something very powerful. I think Fireball was the same way. It's like how a while back when poison was multiplicative, some Blizzard official said "we know just how much poison damage can do and it isn't broken" and then the next patch included something along the lines of "Nerfed poison damage... what were we THINKING?????"

And I still stand by that assertion. No, CE isn't 'broken', but it's incredibly unbalanced. It's indicative of the balance issues that remain. I wager that CE will become a huge crowdkiller even in 8 player hell if it is indeed fully restored and able to scale up to 8 player monster health.

CE does scale with players again. It's very uber. It's a huge crowdkiller.

However, you can kill with a Minion-Mancer just fine. CE is sure handy for some spots (i think every Necro should have at least one point in it in 1.10) but you can play without it. The same problem with CE exists with minions, though- you have to get that first corpse. With minions it's a bit different, because there's more of a "numbers game" (have to outnumber to kill effectively) than with CE. Nonetheless, it is viable.

Too bad Bonespear can't do the job. I had two of its Synergies maxed and it was barely doing 1k/spear damage. I mean hell, my level 50 Sorc's Fireball does more than a totally maxed Bonespear.

[Occhidiangela]

In golf, the best rule is the simplest: play it as it lies.

(Aside: This weekend's USGA women's open illustrated how silly drop rulings have become. Hit the ball straight and you don't have these problems, Anika dear, I was sorry your bunker shot also sucked, since I was hoping you'd win.)

So with Diablo II: play it as you find it.

Maphack is not "as you find it." Now, I will agree with you that Lam Essen's tomb should probably be in one of the six temples, chosen at random. (Though some will argue that it adds only tedium.) Maps found as scrolls? Good idea, so many of the scroll drops are just ignored, but guess what: nice idea, but it aint there. Send suggestions to Blizzard's suggestion forum, and remember that, in the immortal word of Max Schaeffer, know better than we what makes a good game. (I am giggling as I write this.)

Play it as it lies, Blizzard's tendency to act on player suggestions is low, not high, though they do act sometimes: note that the star shaped radius bug did indeed get fixed, as did the Bow Bug.

[Hammerskjold]

>Blizzard's tendency to act on player suggestions is low, not high, though they do act sometimes: note that the star shaped radius bug did indeed get fixed, as did the Bow Bug.

I think they're always interested in game bugs, just not game play suggestions\alterations.

[Mavfin]

Although, sometimes what we call a bug, they call a feature.....

[TaiDaishar]

Although, sometimes what we call a bug, they call a feature.....

Shouldn't it be the other way around? After all they made the game and if they say it's a feature than it IS a feature :)

[Hammerskjold]

I mean I know what it does, but at what point does it become bug abuse? Would any runeword involving the Eth rune be ruled out as cheating?

To a degree I do hope Bliz would at least resolve this, or call it an intended feature or declare it a mistake.

[Archon_Wing]

When you put the eth rune as part of a runeword, you're putting it for the sake of the runeword. Putting a rune because you know it gives you ITD is another story. I think the latter is lame. I would not blame Barbarians for putting points in masteries. It's not the duty of players to look out for these things.

The question is, if the eth bug did not exist, would you still have put the runes in?

[Ignatz]

Good luck convincing ANYbody that what he really should play is a bone wall / prison necro. Boy I'd feel sorry for that poor sap.

The point is a valid one, I think. 8 Necros is a ridiculous party and wouldn't, in reality, do much of anything. Curses overwriting each other, minions stepping on each others toes, and poison not stacking pretty much kill any possibility of an all-necro party. True, you MAY get something viable going if every necro is high level and built specifically around a few niche skills, but if you take 8 average necros on b.net, threw them into a game, (which, if I may remind you, is how public games work) they will do nothing but play out a comedy farce in 5 acts.

[Hammerskjold]

>The question is, if the eth bug did not exist, would you still have put the runes in?

Damn straight I would. In fact I'd probably put in 4 of them and 2 different runes\jewels\gems in a 6 socket weapon. At least that's what I would do if Eth works as it should, instead of the buggy way it is. As it stands currently, I'm holding off on Eth, until (I'm assuming) it is fixed in the final release of 1.1.

>When you put the eth rune as part of a runeword, you're putting it for the sake of the runeword. Putting a rune because you know it gives you ITD is another story. I think the latter is lame. I would not blame Barbarians for putting points in masteries. It's not the duty of players to look out for these things.

Now that you mention it, is it just me or is the whole system of ITD in 1.09 especially in D2C, really confusing and messed up? I had a War scepter of Piercing in D2C 1.09, but the to hit display is either not showing the information properly. (It shows exactly what a regular weapon with no AR+ in the to hit display) Or I need to test it again to see if it has any effect vs monsters of equal levels as my chars.

But to reply to your statement, I personally wouldn't hold it against another player if they used a runeword with an Eth. Short of them using it in a dueling situation, unless all parties involved consented etc etc. I just just haven't made up my mind if I would use it for my own characters.

[Ignatz]

"It probably will"

Hm, you could try doing some actual testing instead of simply shooting down other posters' test results. Seems to me that complaining right now about things is not only excusable, but should be encouraged. Given actual testing, of course, which the original poster has done (albiet, poorly).

[WarBlade]

Good luck convincing ANYbody that what he really should play is a bone wall / prison necro. Boy I'd feel sorry for that poor sap.

I would do it. :P

20 Bone Wall
20 Bone Prison
20 Bone Spirit ;)
Any remaining poins in Bone Armor.

[Occhidiangela]

It strikes me as ridiculous that this bug is over a year old, the mod community knows how to fix it, yet Blizz put of fixing it, and many other pretty straightforward bugs, for . . . their own reasons.

On a few characters, I use the Ith El Eth / Malice rune word, yet on others, such as my eponynous Rogue Assassin, when I learned of just what the Eth bug meant, I had to retire the Ort Eth/Zephyr Blade Bow I was using as it was bug abuse.

Fun is where you find it.

[Guest]

Did someone test it?

If its still ITD after live, I think I will just consider it a feature.

[Ignatz]

Heya Baylan!

I'm awfully anxious to dig into the challenge. Thrice, now, they've said that Hell will be Hell, and have been wrong. This time, it seems like maybe they aren't.

My feeling is that somebody, though, isn't watching for total damage output at Blizzard. In many ways, total damage output is a good variable to balance between characters. Several posters have mentioned that 'Zons seem to be relatively viable soloing hell, even in Players 8. This shouldn't be. But if it is, I think it supports the notion that Zons simply output far too much damage compared to other characters. I would challenge anybody to come up with any Necro build whatsoever that could output the same amount of damage as does a Zon with 20 points in Multishot, a cruel elite bow, and who's otherwise completely naked (alright, you wussies out there may wield arrows, too).

Can anybody do it? I will throw spit to the wind and say I doubt there exists a Necro build, even one with 5 times the skill points and full regalia that dumps damage on the baddies as fast as the above-mentioned Zon.

Somebody prove me wrong.

(PS: And let's say Players 4, to put CE in a realistic setting)

[GenericKen]

Easy. Big amp + Big ce.

Simple enough, only 2 skills, and completely nude. =O)

[phooker51]

Occhidiangela:

Once again, I'm not campaigning for blizzard to incorporate maphack. I simply said that in 2 years, Blizzard could easily have made some of the more tedius aspects of gameplay more interesting and I proposed a few things that in my opinion, would have. I'm not so naive as to think that if complain about it or I fire off emails to Blizzard that they will put it in the game. This is a discussion forum, we're discussing things, right?


Ignatz:

Er, thanks, I think. :P I'm not saying my testing was great by any means, but to be quite honest, I think I covered my bases for the necromancer. I don't suppose anyone took note of the asterisk I put next to realistic either. I agree that my testing could have been more thorough, but I have yet to see anyone offer a compelling example of a necro NOT having a horrible time in hell (lets say 4 player+) without relying largely on a beefy merc and CE.


GenericKen:

How do you propose to make a few corpses? Your only real avenue is mercs, which just highlights the problem with necros. Most (all?) of the other classes are at least able to take care of themselves.

[WarBlade]

My feeling is that somebody, though, isn't watching for total damage output at Blizzard. In many ways, total damage output is a good variable to balance between characters. Several posters have mentioned that 'Zons seem to be relatively viable soloing hell, even in Players 8.

After being one of those people who have been able to take a 1.09 "players 8" Amazon straight into 1.10 "players 8" I'd have to say you're missing a large part of the issue there.

The damage output does get ridiculous, this is true, but at the same time it comes with some nasty downsides, like being leech dependant in some cases. Consider the lack of all round leeching now and think how that's going to modify an Amazon's ability to take down a stone skin boss in Hell. In my case I found a snake boss that I couldn't halt the life regen on and it took me a while to get through it with only Mana enough to tap at it with Magic Arrow. So there are pros and cons insofar as Amazon damage output is conerned.

One of my biggest beefs in 1.09 was the overpowered nature of Pierce when combined with the likes of Freezing Arrow. I demanded a nerf. In a way I got what I wanted because of a mechanical change and this brings Piercing stupidity back to a reasonable level. It also ultimately plays into damage output . . . which is long overdue and seems much better balanced now.

The real issue I still have however is the Valkyrie. This thing needed a major overhaul - less life, more damage but unfortunately it seems to be a tougher brick than ever now. With any luck, someone at Blizzard will wake up to this and do something about it. If the Valkyrie loses a little of its lifespan we'll be spending more time retreating and recasting rather than shooting, which also ultimately curtails any damage output issue.

It's hard for me to say though. I don't play Amazons enough to accurately gauge the entire class.

[Ignatz]

I would do it. 
20 Bone Wall
20 Bone Prison
20 Bone Spirit
Any remaining poins in Bone Armor.

Hey look! All those say "Bone". Let's give them synergy bonuses!

:lol:

[GenericKen]

After being one of those people who have been able to take a 1.09 "players 8" Amazon straight into 1.10 "players 8" I'd have to say you're missing a large part of the issue there.

The damage output does get ridiculous, this is true, but at the same time it comes with some nasty downsides, like being leech dependant in some cases. Consider the lack of all round leeching now and think how that's going to modify an Amazon's ability to take down a stone skin boss in Hell. In my case I found a snake boss that I couldn't halt the life regen on and it took me a while to get through it with only Mana enough to tap at it with Magic Arrow. So there are pros and cons insofar as Amazon damage output is conerned.

One of my biggest beefs in 1.09 was the overpowered nature of Pierce when combined with the likes of Freezing Arrow. I demanded a nerf. In a way I got what I wanted because of a mechanical change and this brings Piercing stupidity back to a reasonable level. It also ultimately plays into damage output . . . which is long overdue and seems much better balanced now.

The real issue I still have however is the Valkyrie. This thing needed a major overhaul - less life, more damage but unfortunately it seems to be a tougher brick than ever now. With any luck, someone at Blizzard will wake up to this and do something about it. If the Valkyrie loses a little of its lifespan we'll be spending more time retreating and recasting rather than shooting, which also ultimately curtails any damage output issue.

It's hard for me to say though. I don't play Amazons enough to accurately gauge the entire class.

If I am to understand correctly, there are actually fewer physical immuines in 1.10 than in 1.9, and life/mana leeching has improved with the removal of global physical resists.

Also, I have heard many people who feel the exact opposite way about the state of the 1.10 valk, as Valkyrie does not have its life scale to the number of players in the game anymore.



phook: Well, gee, you have 70+ points and the entirety of the necro's eq list to make those first few bodies. It doesn't matter if his first few corpses are slower than the other chars tho, and CE definately outpaces anything but Lightning Fury.