In depth, *realstic playtest and rant

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Printable Version

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In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-05-2003

This isn't directed at anyone specifically, I just posted it elsewhere and wanted as much feedback as possible.

I wonder if anyone who says "stop whining" about the new difficulty has tried starting over, or playing in hell without the benefits of uber pre-existing gear. When this patch rolls around, the only way I intend to play is ladder. I don't want to play with the thousands of people who have pindleboted, duped, hacked, farmed, or what have you. I know there are plenty of legit players, but I want a fresh start on even footing (I gave up xpac long ago to go back to classic hardcore.)

I want a more difficult game, I want more technique and a challange, but Blizzard is 'fixing' problems in an idiotic fashion (and creating a slew of new problems, I might add).

I'll break down the testing I just did, and this will be looong:

Lets assume we're on the ladder, and I won't have the benefits of all the newfangled godly gear. I have, for the sake of not getting raped in 2 seconds flat, converted some of my better classic gear, which I would guess will be on par or likely better than what you can get in public games going up the ladder.

Level 82 necro (saved from hardcore classic on bnet)
Amulet: +2 necro, high prismatic, 40 life, str
Rings: 2 sojs (good luck finding those)
Helm: 70 life, 10 energy, dual ~30% res grim helm (remember this is from classic)
Shield: Sigons or Eyeless or Prismatic max block pdiamoned grim shield
Weapon: Umes
Belt: 14/3 str/dex, 50 life, dual ~35% res battle belt
Boots: 17/8 str/dex, 30% r/w, 40% fire res
Gloves: Frostburns
Armor: 98 Life, dual 30% res, mdr 2

Original skill setup:
Max IM
roughly 10-11 Amp Damage
Max CE
roughly 16 bone spirit
roughly 16 bone shield
2-3 in golem mastery and summon resist
1 in the golems and skeletons and revives
1 in bone wall
2-3 in lower res
assume 1 for the rest of the prequisite skills
Add +4/5 to all after items.

Admitedly, I didn't think this build would work without some modifications, and boy, was I right. I grabbed a defensive merc from a2 and suited him with some big life armor and like a 300 damage weapon. I tested 4 and 8 player, the results were pretty much the same.

A4 Hell, ROF
Urdars and Venom Lords (actually the blue ones with a different name)
- cast fire golem
- cast im
- fire bone spirits
- run like hell because despite recasts and 100 bone spirits, could not damage any enemy significantly
Overall: golem was completely ineffective and could not touch any monster, IM at level 25 was irrelevent because monsters regenerate faster than it can damage, Bone spirit moved a tick of hp, say | much, but I emptied my belt of full rejuvs and the enemy was not even near 1/2 dead, in 8 player mode, their HP hardly moved. Various curses like Lower Res, and Amp had no impact.

Deciding I might need some minions, head to A1 Tamoe Highland.
- Essentially the same story, except unloading 500 bonespirits or so managed to kill one monster. Amp and CE, and voila, a few bodies. I make a few into revives and a few skeleton mages, head back to A4, this time trying city of the damned.
- Skeletons crushed within 20 seconds
- Golem needing continuous recasts as per usual
- Revives dead within 30 seconds
- can't touch enemies, running out of rejuvs

So this is harder than I guessed it would be, ridiculously so. I revert to 1.09 and fire up jamellas. I give myself an extra 200 skill points because I have a suspicion that a complete reorganization of mine won't even be close to enough.

New point distrubution:
Max CE
Max IM
Max Bone Spirit
Max Fire Golem
Max Golem Mastery
Max Summon Resist
Max the other golem that gives Fire Golem health bonuses
Max Poison Dagger
Max Poison Explosion
Max Poison Nova
- Add some attract thinking it will help, notice it lasts for all 5 seconds at lower levels useless... no choice but to max it... 20 second duration.
- leftover points go to skeleton mastery and a few in skeleton mage
The rest of my skills I leave aproximately the same, for (lol) realism's sake.

Now lets try that again:
A4 Hell, ROF 8 player.
- golem has 7000+ life... neat... costs 300 mana to cast... not neat.
- cast im, again, no effect
- start firing off poison nova like no tomorrow, it keeps their healing down, and slowly eroding health, but 2 second duration amounts to jack crap (this is 2000 damage over 2 seconds with max to all the synergies remember). Monsters are not taking much damage and I am bottoming out on mana pots.
- decide to try poison dagger seeing its impressive numbers, manage to stab an enemy or 2, and though they stay green for a while, when it passes, they regenerate the HP
- break out attract, dump it on the enemies hoping they will hurt eachother... negligable, though the relief in pressure is nice. But regeneration trumps all their damage (adding poison nova and dagger doesn't help)
- Lower resist with poison dagger and alot of bone spirits, still can't get an enemy past 1/2 life
- no corpses
- no ce, no skeletons, no revives, no dead bodies except mine if I didn't run back to town.

I went to A1 to try and get a few revives... the poison skills did better there, but I tried A3/A4/A5 with a few skels and revives, and they got reamed, and I was back to the procedure above.

On that note, tried A5. Skeleton archers in the foothills are poison immune. I can't even MOVE their HP.

Other things I tried
- iron golem at medium level, around 10... he doesn't live very long and recasting him is a pain in the ass.
- blood golem is a complete waste of time, does no damage

Now would all you people saying "we'll find ways around" or "you need the good gear!" explain how I am supposed to get that elite gear (which I might add, doesn't even help a necro that much besides +skill) if I can't kill single monsters with mediocre but semi-realistic gear and beyond that, TRIPLE the skill points I will have access to? Sure this game needs a difficulty increase, and encouraging cooperation is fine, but don't you find it a LITTLE stupid that a level 25 fire golem with max synergies deals a whopping 350 fire damage and an impressive 42 (FOURTY TWO) holy fire damage? Am I missing something? Shouldn't max poison nova with max synergy be able to damage enemies without needing 30 recasts? Should Bone Spirit ONLY make a difference with max to all its synergies? Shouldn't there be more than 1 way to kill monsters besides dumping poison and bone spirits until there is 1 corpse to CE? Shouldn't I be able to play on the ladder without needing a party of 3 to kill ONE monster for me so I can even get exp in the first place? At no point in time should it be nigh impossible for a single person to play the game, 8 player mode or no 8 player mode. It simply isn't fun to rely 100% on other people, or to spend 15 minutes fighting 5 monsters near a waypoint.

I like playing with people, I have friends who play, but that doesn't mean I should be forced to play with them at all times. If I wish to be remotely competitive on the ladder without an entourage, I should have the freedom to do so. I've tried similar scenarios with other player classes, and you know what? The results aren't far off. I've played hardcore diablo 2 exclusively since its release, so I don't balk at the possibility of danger or death, but come on, this is just stupid and boring.

It comes down to Blizzard being crass and careless. How in the world do complete oversights like this creep and REMAIN in a patch 2 years in the making? Yes, this is a beta patch. But you expect me to believe a company like blizzard can't put 20 minutes into testing this (which is what it took me) before releasing it for public consumption?

Lastly, it occurs to me that this game would at least be PLAYABLE if Blizzard did away with monster regeneration. What, is 4x the hp not enough? It was an annoyance before, but it is the heart of the problem now.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - whereagles - 07-05-2003

lol man, you suck with nec :D

(just kidding) Honestly, put that report up at Blizzo's forum ;)

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Brista - 07-05-2003

phooker51,Jul 5 2003, 09:22 PM Wrote:anyone who says "stop whining"

Stop whining and play

Yes it's harder agreed

And no, I don't expect anyone has played a character from level 1 to the end of Hell after one day no twink

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - TaiDaishar - 07-05-2003

Your report sounds depressing yet you still WERE in a players 8/4 game the added difficulty is to compensate for the (supposedly) added help you get from other players so I suggest trying in a players 1 first and continue from there.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - yangman - 07-05-2003

Sounds perfectly fine for "Hell" to me. <_<

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-05-2003

Did you even read the post? The entire point of my post was how playing in hell would be like without absurd amounts of twinking - ie. on the new ladder. I gave myself generous gear and impossibly high skill opints and even then, the results were sickening. Read, then post.

It seems like people are skipping over this:

Now would all you people saying "we'll find ways around" or "you need the good gear!" explain how I am supposed to get that elite gear (which I might add, doesn't even help a necro that much besides +skill) if I can't kill single monsters with mediocre but semi-realistic gear and beyond that, TRIPLE the skill points I will have access to? Sure this game needs a difficulty increase, and encouraging cooperation is fine, but don't you find it a LITTLE stupid that a level 25 fire golem with max synergies deals a whopping 350 fire damage and an impressive 42 (FOURTY TWO) holy fire damage? Am I missing something? Shouldn't max poison nova with max synergy be able to damage enemies without needing 30 recasts? Should Bone Spirit ONLY make a difference with max to all its synergies? Shouldn't there be more than 1 way to kill monsters besides dumping poison and bone spirits until there is 1 corpse to CE? Shouldn't I be able to play on the ladder without needing a party of 3 to kill ONE monster for me so I can even get exp in the first place? At no point in time should it be nigh impossible for a single person to play the game, 8 player mode or no 8 player mode. It simply isn't fun to rely 100% on other people, or to spend 15 minutes fighting 5 monsters near a waypoint.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Rataxes - 07-05-2003

So you're saying that an untwinked character should be able to solo just fine in an 8 player game?

Oh now that *really* makes sense to me :rolleyes:

Players 1 is the standard for a soloist. If the difficulty is balanced, any reasonably well-planned character should be able to solo the game, untwinked, with players set to 1.

Players 8 on the other hand, is the ultimate challenge, and as such, it should take more than just the right skills to solo. Players 8, when soloing, should be meant for people who do have these godly items and want to test their might against the greatest challenge the game can pose.

Short summary, Players 8 is

1) Meant for full and well-balanced parties who know how to co-operate and combine each-others abilities for maximum efficiency.

2) The ultimate challenge for a soloist, and as such, requires nothing less than the ultimate soloist.

ADD] Fire Golems are tanks. Being a tank does not necessarily any offensive power what so ever.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - GenericKen - 07-05-2003

Try twinking his skills over 28. I hear that's the new breakpoint.

Drop rates are better in nm, so perhaps twinking won't be required for + to skills.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-05-2003

I never said I should be able to solo easily. What I said is that it should be physically possible for a reasonably equipped (never mind a char with 200 extra skill points) to enjoy the game on the ladder, even if he isn't playing with 6 people. It isn't.

Fire golems are not just tanks, a necro's minions are supposed to be a significant part of his killing power. They are not, and that is a problem.

"Players 8, when soloing, should be meant for people who do have these godly items and want to test their might against the greatest challenge the game can pose. "

If you want to play on the ladder, you aren't going to be playing in single player games. Thats not to say you won't play with people, but do you honestly think everyone will be able to play with a good group of players all the time? No matter how you cut it, the game, though it should be very challanging and difficult, should be PLAYABLE in 8 player mode, even in hell.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Dagni - 07-05-2003

phooker51,Jul 5 2003, 02:40 PM Wrote:At no point in time should it be nigh impossible for a single person to play the game, 8 player mode or no 8 player mode. It simply isn't fun to rely 100% on other people, or to spend 15 minutes fighting 5 monsters near a waypoint.

Why shouldn't it be nigh-impossible in players 8? If it "simply isn't fun to rely 100% on other people", then don't. Play by yourself, players 1.

Have you considered what it would be like to play in an 8-person party, where of course everyone relies on each other, and never have any challenge, no matter what difficulty setting? You are advocating that "players 8" be balanced for single player!!

There is no way possible for Blizzard to satisfy everyone with their play balance decisions, some people want the game harder than other people. I sincerely hope, however, that Blizzard doesn't once again needlessly screw over those who want a semblance of challenge when playing together as a large party. Needless because it is totally unnecessary to balance high player-count games for soloers. Soloers should find that typically the best option is to play "players 1".

If you are trying to test the game, at least try ONCE playing "players 1". That's the standard of difficulty Blizzard should aim for.

- Dagni

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Dagni - 07-05-2003

phooker51,Jul 5 2003, 03:23 PM Wrote:If you want to play on the ladder, you aren't going to be playing in single player games. Thats not to say you won't play with people, but do you honestly think everyone will be able to play with a good group of players all the time? No matter how you cut it, the game, though it should be very challanging and difficult, should be PLAYABLE in 8 player mode, even in hell.

If you can't find a good group of players, then either join the Amazon Basin, or play by yourself in your own game. That IS possible, even on the ladder.

I disagree that it is important for "players 8" to be playable solo. There is ALWAYS an alternative. But even if it IS important, it is hardly the MOST important thing. "players 1" is more important. A fair degree of difficulty for a real team is more important.

And I don't know if your builds will ever be viable in Hell or not, but even if not that doesn't mean that there are NO necro builds that are viable, it just means you haven't found one yet.

- Dagni

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Caesar - 07-05-2003

Newt toes.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - kandrathe - 07-05-2003

My assessment was that solo Hell may just be a thing of the past.

Hell is for parties, man.

Edit: Also, in you description I didn't see that you optimized Bone Spirit for synergies. Did you max Teeth, Bone Wall, Bone Spear, and Bone Spirit? As for a Hell party player, the Necro may just need to opt for curses as party support.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-05-2003

Quote:Thats not to say you won't play with people, but do you honestly think everyone will be able to play with a good group of players all the time?

I'm not talking about not having a group to play with. I'm talking about enjoying a game in an competitive environment without an ABSOLUTE need to rely on others to do work for you.

I never once said "all builds are impossible!". I said that Blizzard's solution to the difficulty problem is haphazard, and sucks the fun out of the game. What mainstream build did I really leave out of the picture? Lets assume I have average gear (which I think I've got covered) and want to play in a 4 player game. Unreasonaable? I hardly think so. So I have Poison, check. High life golem? Check. Bone spear or Bone spirit? Check. Bone wall? Check (they nerfed that nicely, btw). Myriad of curses? Check and double check. Revives and Skeletons? Tossing aside my assertation that they are insufficient at high levels, how am I supposed to make those corpses in the first place? With 3 trees full of interesting skills, is my only option to get a hireling and twiddle my thumbs?

Again, I am not some insane solo only advocate, nor am I just complaining about the necromancer's plight. I am trying to point out that there are some VERY basic balance issues that Blizzard has had 2+ years to address, and in all that time, has come up with a pretty lame (beta) product.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-06-2003

kandrathe,Jul 5 2003, 11:22 PM Wrote:Edit:  Also, in you description I didn't see that you optimized Bone Spirit for synergies.  Did you max Teeth, Bone Wall, Bone Spear, and Bone Spirit?  As for a Hell party player, the Necro may just need to opt for curses as party support.

Do you realize the kind of point investment that is? My point is that it shouldn't necessary to max 4 somewhat useless skills (show me the use of level 20 teeth, or level 20 bonewall) to make another skill not suck. I messed around with that at some point, I think bone spirit does about 2k damage with all of it's synergies maxed. Thats still pathetic damage in hell, trust me. For 80 points it is a terribly poor return. To answer your question, no I did not try that in that round of testing.

If you were to max it out, you'd be flinging around 2k damage bone spirits, and have oh, 20 points left to invest everywhere else. Good luck with that.

Again, I can understand that hell isn't supposed to be solo friendly. Even if it isn't, I reiterate that blizzard's implementation has sucked alot of fun out of the game. Maybe not for everyone, but most certainly for me and a significant number of people.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Dagni - 07-06-2003

phooker51,Jul 5 2003, 04:42 PM Wrote:Lets assume I have average gear (which I think I've got covered) and want to play in a 4 player game.  Unreasonaable? I hardly think so.

1. My sincere hope is that you and everyone else will find that that decision (if soloing), whether "unreasonable" or not, is a very stupid one when they could've decided to play in a one player game. I want the risk and/or tedium to outweigh the benefit of high player-count when soloing.

2. While it may sound different from my posts, I don't have all that much problem with playing solo players 4-8. But I have a HUGE problem with that becoming the standard or baseline by which play balance is judged! If you had also tested "players 1", I might not have disagreed with your conclusions for "Players 8". But you didn't. You seem to consider the "not unreasonable" goal of playing solo in a 4-player game MORE important than playing solo in a 1-player game. That's what I vehemently disagree with.

- Dagni

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-06-2003

And I say again that I am not seeking to solo hell all the time. I AM trying to find out what ladder play will be like come the official patch. I did not seek to test players 1 the same way because it was clear that it was possible to kill things in that situation.

I do think that solo, or small parties are important when it comes to the ladder. Sometimes, just sometimes, I like going off on my own, where it might be more difficult, but there are greater rewards in experience and item drops. I also like playing with my friends on a smaller scale, while remaining 'competitive' on a ladder. I like not having to fight tooth and nail with a group of 8 over every single item that drops. I like not having to deal with pks, idiots, item hogs, and the generally annoying average bnet player. I also like the idea of characters being more diverse than relying on 3-4 skills in a party, and being responsible for more than casting amp damage or ce. Yes yes, I can play single player, or in my own games, but there is something to be said for a little element of meaingful competition.

I never said it was more importent than anything else. I just think Blizzard could promote cooperation without shoving it down everyone's throat.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - Obi2Kenobi - 07-06-2003

There would be 3 other people in the game helping you, and if you work together, ie: a pally with auras or a barb with warcries, the bonuses would be important, because everyone's things would help everyone else, so you wouldn't get 4 times the power with 4 people, instead you would get an amount that depends on the teamwork/intelligence of players.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - phooker51 - 07-06-2003

Overall, I think Blizzard hasn't truly improved gameplay or fixed gameplay problems. Alot of skills still don't really 'work', and balance is still shifty. On top of that, you have the added fun of being forced, under no certain circumstances, to party. I should mention that I have tried partying up in the new patch. I played with 3 other friends for a few hours yesterday, and you know what we found? The only significant change to the game is that you have to bludgeon monsters longer, for less effect than before. It wasn't much fun, and overall, not what I hoped 1.10 would be.

In depth, *realstic playtest and rant - lemekim - 07-06-2003

Quote:ADD] Fire Golems are tanks. Being a tank does not necessarily any offensive power what so ever.

Actually right now fire golems fail even at that mission - their life goes down alarmingly quickly even with lvl 40 golem/mastery.

Quote:Try twinking his skills over 28. I hear that's the new breakpoint.

That's seems to be what you need. Now the focus should be to increase your +skills in absolutely any way possible. Plain circlet with +2 all skills or +3 to a tree; Armor, +skills necro head; charms; it's not that hard to get 30+ skills even with untwinked chars; and 35 should significantly improve your killing speed.

The whole problem if we are going to decrease difficulty, is that people with twinked out chars and lvl 45 skills would be able to breeze through Hell even with 8 people in it; unlike now, where it's actually a challenge even with such a gear.

One things bugs me though... The minions die too fast, even at very high levels =(