In depth, *realstic playtest and rant

[TheDragoon]

I just gave my first run in Hell with a Hunger and Vitality based Werewolf designed to do most of his damage through Armageddon. First let me say I feel bad for any Paladins out there. When my Werewolf is getting stunned by attacks despite his 2400 life and 75% resist all, it seems a little crazy. Second, if a character designed for speed with one of the highest Life Leech percentages in the game (I think it was somewhere around 240% after Feral Rage, Hunger and equipment) can't manage to leech back enough life to tank 2 monsters at a time I shake my head at any idea Blizzard might have had about playability.

Also let me note that Armageddon still doesn't seem to do enough damage, even when it is slvl 27 with 30 points worth of synergies (for +210% damage) as it could hardly even touch the monsters of Act 1, let alone Act 5. I'll try it with more skills later, but I'm a little disheartened that the elemental tree still seems so useless when confronted with the new deadlier monsters.

I seriously hope this doesn't just go to show that Elementalists will be as weak (or weaker) in 1.10 than in 1.09. I really do.

[Rataxes]

I'm getting really confused here. Could someone check what the average difference in HP is between Nightmare and Hell? My Fire blast Trapsin just entered Act 1 NM and is killing things - even the fire resistant fallens - rather comfortably with my 300 dmg FB. I'm in Tamoe Highlands and it takes about 7-8 Fire blasts to kill a Hunter (the blue kind) on Players 8. Considering my FB doesn't even do 1/10 of the projected end-game damage yet, I don't see how it could possibly fare that much worse in Hell.

From the Hell reports I've heard so far, just about every single monster in Hell either have very high resistances to everything, or Hit Points counted in hundreds of thousands. That Hunter type monster in Tamoe Highlands had about 2500 HP in Players 8. From 2500 in NM, to 100 000 in Hell, seems like quite a jump :)

[Dyntheos]

For all the people crying "what about players 1!!!!"

How the HELL are you supposed to gain experience in a players 1 game?

On the realms you MUST solo in large games to get experience at high levels, this is in particular relevent to the nerco that gets out distanced in party games, and seems he has ZERO killing power at high levels.

I cannot belive that poeple here are saying "but hell is meant for party play", well that may be blizzards "vision" yet most people do not want to play with a party all the time, or dislike the bnet average player, and so play solo. Not everyone is a member of the basin or the lounge so stop being elitist and think of the people who are not a part of these kind of communities.

What worries me about this post is that even if the necro was in an 8 player party he would not be contributing to the kills.

Party combat should make the game FASTER not easier. You shouldn't have to rely on others to at least kill. It appears the necro cannot even kill in a large realm game, being useless in a party, except being a "curse bitch" for others.

Each character should be able to solo hell in an 8 player game. I don't know where you came up with this idea that a solo is in players 1 games. On the realms the definition has been that if you can solo, you can solo in 8 player games. This has been the case since D2C, when the term first came up about lance barbs soloing hell.

Remember the lounge is a very small part of the online community for D2 and like it or not the inability for people playing on thier own and unable to at least kill in 8 player hell games will infuriate alot of people.

[TheDragoon]

Each character should be able to solo hell in an 8 player game.

I completely disagree. I think it's good to make it so that people can only manage to fight, by themselves, in a one person game. However, I WOULD like to be able to manage just that little bit. The fact that I couldn't even manage a players 1 game with all of the incredibly powerful gear I had equipped is what bothers me. :)

[TheDragoon]

The Armageddon/Hunger build I was using was killing with no problem on players 8 in Act 5 of Nightmare Difficulty. However, when I got to Hell difficulty, a single pack of carvers destroyed me. I could barely handle 2 of the vile lancers (not sure if the name is correct, but that's the type of monster at least) at a time.

[Dagni]

The Armageddon/Hunger build I was using was killing with no problem on players 8 in Act 5 of Hell.  However, when I got to Hell difficulty, a single pack of carvers destroyed me.

You mean: "The Armageddon/Hunger build I was using was killing with no problem on players 8 in Act 5 of Nightmare", right?

A very confusing mistake :)

- Dagni

[Wapptor]

I completely disagree.  I think it's good to make it so that people can only manage to fight, by themselves, in a one person game.  However, I WOULD like to be able to manage just that little bit.  The fact that I couldn't even manage a players 1 game with all of the incredibly powerful gear I had equipped is what bothers me.  :)

Agreed. I *edited* a sorceress to 99 with cookie-cutter stats and "godly" gear by 1.09 b.net standards. Act 1 hell was near impossible...

...maybe Blizzard thinks we all use ITHS? :blink:

-Wapptor

[Dagni]

On the realms you MUST solo in large games to get experience at high levels,

That is exactly what I'm complaining about. If a character really "must" play in large games to get experience, that is a glaringly obvious play imbalance. Whether or not this is the case currently, it hopefully will NOT be the case in the future. If there existed an armor that gave +200% experience, but gave no other mods, probably everyone would wear it, but that wouldn't somehow make the armor a good addition to the game, or remotely balanced.

And of course you don't have to play in large games. It's just that you need to kill 5 times as many monsters to get the same amount of exp if not playing in large games. But that's just me nit-picking. ;)

and like it or not the inability for people playing on thier own and unable to at least kill in 8 player hell games will infuriate alot of people.

If "players 1" was boosted to give exactly as good rewards as "players 8", who would complain that they couldn't solo "players 8"? The one and only reason that most people play "players 8" is because the rewards easily outweigh the disadvantages. This is a bad thing, and has hopefully been fixed. Actually, I find it kinda funny that many people in SP do "players 8" since, imo, "players 5" is much better for quick experience.

It appears the necro cannot even kill in a large realm game, being useless in a party, except being a "curse bitch" for others.

I'm confident that 8 necros could kill together quite easily. Just because each player on the team can't kill by himself, doesn't mean that will still be the case if partied. Multiply the damage by 8, and monster regen is no longer such a problem, for example.

- Dagni

[lemekim]

That is exactly
I'm confident that 8 necros could kill together quite easily. Just because each player on the team can't kill by himself, doesn't mean that will still be the case if partied. Multiply the damage by 8, and monster regen is no longer such a problem, for example.

- Dagni

Actually with necros it's not quite true. You don't get the benefit of stacking multiple auras as paladins would; the curses don't stack. Poison nova cannot be stacked either. CE, the main killer in multiplayer games for necros, is pretty much limited by the amount of bodies that fall - the rate of monsters dying is the limit here. Revives can be sort of an answer, but with 8 necromancers all having tens of revives, they will simply get in each others way instead of producing more damage. The only real and direct way to do damage, that 8 necromancers can contribute to, is BSpirit or spear. But BS is not exactly a high damage attack, and very mana consuming to boot. It takes about 30 BS to kill a cow in hell in large game. I can think of faster ways to kill each cow.

So the whole point here is that 8 necros doesn't mean 8x damage =\ The only alternatives to fully utilizing the potential of 8 necromancers is either by splitting them (thus negating whole together part), or perhaps by hiring 8 barbarian mercs to provide corpses for CE (in which case 1 nec can really do all the corpse epxloding; 7 other necs becomes mere providers of mercs).

[Obi2Kenobi]

8 necros=more than 8 times the damage.
One maxes nova.
One or two curse ones.
A bone wall prison guy (for retreats and holding on to lebs).
One with corpse explosion.
Miniony person.
Rest use spirt and spear.
Everyone also maxes their synergies, and add in mercs and your set.
And if people have extra points, just invest in different golems.

[Archon_Wing]

I really don't like multiple necro parties, unless it was really organized. Usually there's always another bastard overriding curses and the such. However, 8 zookeepers is quite fun.

Anyhow, I have been playing a new necro at players 4. I'm only in act 2 normal and it is actualy pretty hard. But the experience is fairly decent. :)

[Wrathraven]

Each character should be able to solo hell in an 8 player game. I don't know where you came up with this idea that a solo is in players 1 games. On the realms the definition has been that if you can solo, you can solo in 8 player games.

no, no, no. 8-player Hell is supposed to be the ULTIMATE challenge: where the cream of the crop go, AS A TEAM, and have a big challenge. That was what Blizz intended from the beginning, and failed miserably. Being able to solo 8-player Hell is, and always has been a mistake that Blizz has always messed up with, until now it seems. Mind you, I don't have any Necros worthwhile to check this stuff out, but from what I'm hearing (except for the poor Fire Golem), it's as it should be. Being able to solo Act 5 Hell, 1 Player, with a lvl 80 character, should be damn tough on its own. 8 players should need good teamwork, useable gear, and skill-placement to survive. You can't level fast enough? Tough. There's more to the game than who can reach 99 first, sorry. If this breaks the backs of the old LF 'zon players because they can't wipe the floor with everything now, good riddance. Let the rest of us have fun playing together, for the fun of it. NOT because we're trying to rush to that next level.

[Hammerskjold]

Let's get a few things clear first. Most of the people who enjoy playing solo do not want to take anything away from the people who enjoys playing in a party. You want to have your real 8 count player games to be hard, that's fine. I for one, never wanted a case where a lvl 40 Necromancer can "pwnz" an 8 count Hell mode Baal, using nothing but slvl 1 Teeth.

Second, what I'm more pissed at is the only solution bliz seems to readily offer is "go to ladder, find people to party with, and find our new toys. By the way they're Ladder only toys." Granted that is the big appeal of the game, but last time I looked there was a single player component to this game, unless that's just considered a throwaway practice sandbox.

>If "players 1" was boosted to give exactly as good rewards as "players 8", who would complain that they couldn't solo "players 8"?

Unless the 1.1 beta changed things, last time I looked the "players 8" command does not affect any gold drops. I believe it reduces normal monsters chances of doing a no drop. In practical terms, all that seems to do is making sure you get more bolts, arrows, keys, and the occasional Isenhart's case. It has no effects on boss drops.

>The one and only reason that most people play "players 8" is because the rewards easily outweigh the disadvantages.

No, that's not the only reason. I for one like trying to see how well a character can do under those conditions, without the benefit of lag. Am I crazy or stupid for wanting to play under the same adversity a player 8 gives, without lag or finding 7 other people?

>Actually, I find it kinda funny that many people in SP do "players 8" since, imo, "players 5" is much better for quick experience.

Speaking for myself, at a certain point I don't care if players 4-5 is more efficient than players 8. I like the extra challenge\danger\tedium at times, and find the suggestion that all anyone cares about is the quick experience, a bit patronizing. And sometimes I just do players 8 for the hell of it, no pun intended.

All this is really irrelevant I guess, if Blizzard considers D2\LoD to be a pseudo MMORPG first, with a minor sp mode included to pacify the n00bs who can't cut it in the "real" game aka Ladder.

ps.

>If a character really "must" play in large games to get experience, that is a glaringly obvious play imbalance. Whether or not this is the case currently, it hopefully will NOT be the case in the future.

Heh, on that I agree 100%. It would be great if the final release of 1.1 will make both party and solo play fun, without compromising either style.

[Ice]

Each character should be able to solo hell in an 8 player game. I don't know where you came up with this idea that a solo is in players 1 games. On the realms the definition has been that if you can solo, you can solo in 8 player games.

If each character should be able to solo hell in an 8-player game, you might as well just boost all the monsters such that they have the same amount of life and give drops/xp equivalent to an 8-player game (something like an player 8 mod), and with more ppl it can even go up to the equivalent of player 64.

IMO characters should definitely be able to solo at least in player 1 reasonably, even up to player 3-4. Beyond that should be the domain of team characters or solo characters with far superior gear (or using some of the most broken skills). If every single character is able to solo 8 in hell, the game's probably so broken that you might as well not waste your time and just move on to a new game.

You want to talk elitist? Then don't just think of all the people who build cookie cutter builds with top gear and levels to 99... there are also a very large population of people who are just starting out, have no twink gear or simply have had to restart because their characters died in hc. If all these characters can survive and solo in hell players 8, I think something is very very wrong. The game would simply be too easy to be even worth playing.

And in any case, in terms of experience per unit time, players 8 is hardly the way to go. Players 8 does give you the most xp per monster killed but around players 5-6 is more than likely to allow you to level up much quicker.

Party combat should make the game FASTER not easier. You shouldn't have to rely on others to at least kill. It appears the necro cannot even kill in a large realm game, being useless in a party, except being a "curse bitch" for others.

Why wouldn't party combat make the game easier? Eg. having a necromancer casting amp against a bunch of monsters with 95% physical resistance would increase the physical damage potential of the party by 21x... Likewise life/mana boosts from skills like BO, oak sage would also go a long way in increasing survival rates and thereby making the game easier as well.

[SonOfYarg]

Well my first post, but I have been lurking for years :)

How to say this; It's just a little bit too hard in my opinion.

Played 1 player not 8 in hell with a level 99 Barbarian using complete IK set with new unique rings and amulets and charms and also different combos of all the best gear in the game. Gear that will take years to get in ladder. Died quite a few times and was having a hell of a time killing things. I was making progress but it was slow and deadly. Now I don't know what others wanted, but I did want harder, just not quite this hard. I hate to think how bad hell will be in 1 player with average gear, let alone 4 or 8 player games. And no I'm not a newby, been playing since first beta actually. Me thinks they went a wee bit too far. It was kind of strange too, at times my health globe never moved, and then bam! In a few hits I would be dead. The range on all the monsters is wayyyyyyy longer, whether its hydra, revies, blizzard, etc. They will pound you from all over the place.

Now to try a few other characters decked out, but I don't forsee it being much different, but who knows maybe a sorc will fair better.

[Dyntheos]

I shudder to think what ungodly closed to open hacked item the hackers will import to the realms to deal with this level stupidity from blizzard.

From day one I just wanted to play a necro and be on level footing with other characters.

As soon as someone says "sure necro's can party" the very next sentence is ALWAYS, "they can cast a CURSE."

For once I'd like to hear, "cool a necro, those minions will really help kill".

A necro is about undead. hence his name. he's not called a "witchdoctor" or "voodoo man" or whatever. It's n-e-c-r-o-m-a-n-c-e-r. someone who revives or raises the dead to fight. Unfortunately the necros minions have never been able to be more than a moving wall to aid others to position ofr an attack or allow a merc to move around enough for a kill. Never has a necro been able to kill as well as any other character in the game.

Taking on diablo with a non twinked necro is a joke. any minions die in one sweep of a fire nova.

Necro have zero offensive power compared to any other character and it looks like blizzard may have just patched them out of the game for good.

[TheDragoon]

That basically sums up my feelings. The only part that I really would disagree with is the following:

I hate to think how bad hell will be in 1 player with average gear, let alone 4 or 8 player games.

Personally, I'd like to see just 1 player with decent gear be able to at least MANAGE (though not thrive) in hell. :)

[WarBlade]

I never twink or mule and my old Amazon had a Shael'd Goldstrike from Act 5 Nightmare. Using only sLvl 24 Valkyrie and sLvl 3 Magic Arrow Piercing about 83% IIRC she can wander around Act 5 Hell "Players 8" at a rather sedate pace before a Physical Immune will stop her. A stone skin (not PI) Poison Immune snake took a couple of minutes to whittle down, but even that fell in spite of the nasty regeration it had.

Actually a number of my old characters have been managing various stages of Hell with 1.09 exceptional items Rare, Crafts, a few uniques as long as I don't get confident and type "/players 8" An Avenger and a Sorceress, both 81, could crawl at snail pace through Glacial Trail in Hell 8 too, although I've about done my dash trying that stunt. :lol:

[pbrain]

For all the people crying "what about players 1!!!!"

How the HELL are you supposed to gain experience in a players 1 game?

Methinks players 1 gives more experience than it used to. Killing a Doom Caster in Hell with a clvl 82 barb netted 25k experience in 1.10. In 1.09 it gave a mere 9k.

Of course the actual difficulty in getting the kill is much different. My barb is a berserk/frenzy/warcry build. His gear is optimized for stubborness, not killing: sigons belt, boots, gloves, angelic rings, sabre (in off hand), armour and ammy, hat with +2 skills, +2 berserk, +3 find item, and a cruel near 300% clean champion sword and a might merc. Nothing really godly by 1.09 and could easily be improved for killing.

He tooled around a4 hell players 1 and I'd guesstimate the difficulty was comparable to players 5 in 1.09, which is to say he moved pretty quickly ~5-6 hits/kill. The exception was boss packs*gah*so much life. For comparison, a Doom Caster in players 5 1.09 gave ~32k. By my crude guesstimations, he was able to gain experience maybe a little slower rate than before.

I'm going to say to the original poster, "what about players 1!" :P Try it for awhile and compare it to soloing larger games in 1.09 in terms of rewards per unit time. Experience was comparable for me. The jury is still out on drops though, but elites seemed far more common.

[Brista]

I was a little short before but doodling around with a character you've just hacked up in an editor is not the same as taking on the game with a character you've played through the game

We don't yet know if it will be possible to solo-8 in Hell

It probably will