Uber upgrade?

[Guest]

Dude, take a chill pill... I didn't know they hack, and I never bought anything.

Second of all, my post was rather hostile. That was intentional. If you don't understand why a post such as yours incites hostility, that's your problem.

I get it ok?! I don't think it's that big of a deal though.

[Munkay]

I get it ok?! I don't think it's that big of a deal though.

Okay, problem solved. Unreal understands, Gekko he never intended to make it seem like he was supporting hacking. It was a simple mistake due to misinformation.

No one is supporting duping, we are all happy little lurkers again. Now cut it out or I'll smack you both with a big herring.

Negative cool points for using old IRC references.

...and there was much rejoicing

-Munk.

[gekko]

Dude, take a chill pill... I didn't know they hack, and I never bought anything.

Now, I'll write slowly and clearly to make sure you understand this time.

I never said you bought any items. You suggested that "there are websites where you can just buy those items," suggesting that such a practice is acceptable. I explained why such behavior is not acceptable -- buying items from botters encourages the botting to continue. Every dollar spent on hacked items may as well have been spent developing the next hack to hit the realms. I was not objecting to you purchasing items. I was objecting to your suggestion that purchasing items was acceptable behavior.

This conversation reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer gets the job as Santa Claus, and becomes a supporter of communism, all at the same time. "Communism? You didn't realize communism was such a big deal?

As to your "dude, take a chill pill..." Grow up. You said something stupid. I told you it was stupid, why it was stupid, and that should have been the end of it. But you felt you had to defend yourself and your stupid comment with a rousing "wwwwowww, dude, you need to like, chill out, man."

You said something stupid. I told you it was stupid, and why it was stupid. If you won't let that be the end of it, at least read and understand what I wrote before you reply.

gekko

[Fragbait]

Hi,

Don't know if this was a Seinfeld joke, but if it was, I don't get it:

"Communism? You didn't realize communism was such a big deal?

<disagree>
If it implies that communism is just as bad as dupe/hack-selling or vice versa however, I might say I disagree here. Communism as such is not such a bad thing, it's just idealistic and unrealizable. What made 'communism' appear in a bad light were/are the attempts of some governments to oppressively indoctrinate this system on their state which utterly failed and left a pseudo-communist facade for an authoritarian dictatorship.
</disagree, ignore this if there was nothing to disagree on>

Otherwise well put!


Greetings, Fragbait

[FenrisWulf]

@gekko:
Hm, there actually is a fairly interesting ethical question among all of the flak going back and forth. unrealshadow suggested that the original poster could always purchase an elite item if he really needed one, and you posited that purchasing items is the spawn of the devil because it supports hackers and botters.

Through this, you're making the unsupported assumption that all items sold must be botted or otherwise produced through the use of hacks. This is likely true for any of the item-selling sites that are advertised in BNet channels; the sheer volume of merchandise doesn't correlate to the natural rarity of the items being sold. There is no requirement, however, that I bot an item in order to sell it. For instance, in the last ladder season, I found an Arioc's Needle -- worth very little, of course, but still an Elite Unique. If I went on eBay and offered this tidbit, and someone purchased it for, say, $0.02, where have we broken the rules of the game, and where have we betrayed our morals?

I would think that the problem does not lie with purchasing items, but with purchasing items produced through hacking. It is a fairly difficult procedure to actually determine which case a particular instance might fall into, but no more so than with general public trading, entirely within the game. Is public trading no longer acceptable behaviour, either?

EDIT: Removed my last line. I think that I might have gotten a bit carried away in my devil's advocacy. :)

[Munkay]

<disagree>
If it implies that communism is just as bad as dupe/hack-selling or vice versa however, I might say I disagree here. Communism as such is not such a bad thing, it's just idealistic and unrealizable. What made 'communism' appear in a bad light were/are the attempts of some governments to oppressively indoctrinate this system on their state which utterly failed and left a pseudo-communist facade for an authoritarian dictatorship.
</disagree, ignore this if there was nothing to disagree on>

Mucho agreed,

As if Lenin didn't already prove it previously, by the time he put in the New Economic Plan, it was blatent he had fallen off the Ideological Bandwagon. As for Stalin? Oh boy. No proof really needed there. Just look at his rise to power from 26 (when things really got cookin') to 36 (start of public trials). He was like a bad power hungry version of John Kerry. Back and forth between Zinon'ev, Bhukarin, Radick, and every silly on the left and right.

[nameless noob]

Hm, there actually is a fairly interesting ethical question among all of the flak going back and forth.

The question: Is it ever OK to purchase a virtual item for real money?

The consensus LL answer seems to be: NO. Never. If you didn't see it drop it could be a dupe.

This is of course the wrong answer. IMO of course (and so much for my reputation). It is an over-reaction to a problem which is now endemic in D2, and also in every successful MMORPG (which D2 is. sorta) in existence.

I have a "confession" to make. I have purchased something. For season 2. On Ebay. From somebody I never even met. Who assures me that it is legit. (No doubt just like the other 300 exact replicas he might possess).

Why did I do this?

You see, I allegedly have a life. I have a Job, Friends, and things that I must DO. I don't get to play D2 much, and when I do I prefer to run odd characters. Because the item i wanted is odd, people sell it (at the vendors), so they're almost never for trade. By purchasing it, I saved myself doing MF runs for 5 hours a week until the next ladder reset, and probably STILL not finding the item. Was it worth what I paid? YES.

<I should also note that I traded the skullders that mephisto left me on hell difficulty for some other rather nice items. The items traded to me were spawned in a different game for somebody I’ve never met. I cannot confirm that my items are not duplicates. Also, I am not, nor have I ever been a communist.>

So if buying an item for real money will increase your enjoyment of D2, then by all means buy it. For sure, trade if you can, but don't think that doing so shields you from the botters and the dupers.

Enjoy the game. If you no longer enjoy the game, quit.

my $.02

-nameless noob

[adeyke]

You see, I allegedly have a life.

Here we go again :rolleyes:.

For completeness's sake, I'm sure Hitler wouldn't mind you buying D2 items.

[nameless noob]

For completeness's sake, I'm sure Hitler wouldn't mind you buying D2 items

And also for completeness' sake, I'm sure Hitler wouldn't mind you not buying D2 items.

lol.

-nameless noob

[Minionman]

Adeyke brings up Hitler, Adekye looses :)

[Barrid]

Hello. I'm also a new member of the Lounge, but have been "lurking" (without an account) for multiple years, even since before the downtimes. This is my attempt to get this thread back on a discussion that's more like the original post.... :o

I'd like to add that while an upgraded Heart Carver wouldn't be too hot on a Fury Wolf, it's still a good knife, and would go well if you planned to make a Daggerzon. With the 35% Deadly Strike and great damage (for a dagger, anyway), throw some points in Critical Strike and you've got yourself a zon doing at or near 100% double damage, which in hell might actually be noticiable! :lol: Such a build would let you pump vit and be a pretty great tank, since the ITD would let you keep dex lower than normal (perhaps just enough to use the dagger).

I don't think I can add much more than that from what the others here have said. I'd use the Demon Limb over the Carver on a Wolf if I was forced to choose, but a big two-hander would be much better, if you can do without a shield. With the limb, the enchant and big fire damage would add up, given the quickness of fury.

- Barrid

[Munkay]

Warning: Devil's Advocate Walks The Earth. 3004 Soj's sold to Vendor.

Gekko already brought up the point that buy purchasing items, you are supporting the selling and buying of items. Which in turn makes games less about 'fun' and more about money. You make anything fun, lucritive and you start to attract a bad crowd.

-Munk

[gekko]

Adeyke brings up Hitler, Adekye looses&nbsp; :)

Adeyke's comment was refering to the fact that everytime someone tries defending purchasing items off of ebay or some website, they bring up the "I have a life, I bought because all it did was trade time for money." Much like "the hitler argument" this one is so commonly used (despite completely missing the point of the debate, in this case), it's hard finding the energy to bother arguing back. But for completeness sake :), I'll do so anyways.

You can come up with any justification you want for purchasing items from websites. However, what it comes down to is very simple:
1) you know these sites use bots, purchase botted items for resale, sell hacked items, etc.
2) without you and people like you purchasing these items, the market for such botted/hacked items does not exist.
3) Therefore, by purchasing items from these websites, you are providing supporting what they do and perpetuating their existance. In other words, you may as well be doing the botting/hacking yourself.

All the "time vs money" and "purchasing from 'legitimate' users" arguments fail to address this key point -- if you want to buy items, by all means, go ahead. However, don't try to convince me that this is ok. You are responsable for the continuing existence of the websites, and you are responsable for the huge market for hacked/duped/botted items. You can talk degree of responsability all you want (and I'll admit the responsability falls heavier on the botters themselves than on the buyers), however, you still shoulder some responsability.

To FenrisWulf: I agree that purchasing "legitimate" items is not the same as purchasing hacked or botted items. However, you can't hide behind the "I don't know the websites are selling hacked/botted items" argument. You have to use your logic. We know the websites out there are selling hacked, duped, and botted items. To deny this is simply ridiculous.

Finally, concerning communism. I was not attempting to compare buying D2 items to communism. What was I comparing?

How could Kramer not know communism was a big deal?
How could Unreal not know that buying items was a big deal?

It's not like this is a new issue, and it's not like he's new to these forums. Which is why I wondered originally if he had mentioned it purely to get reactions.

gekko

[Guest]

It's not like this is a new issue, and it's not like he's new to these forums. Which is why I wondered originally if he had mentioned it purely to get reactions.

I am not new to the forums, no, but I don't remember reading anything in the forum ettiquite or rules that it is against the rules to talk about sites that sell items. I know that you can't talk about hacking etc, but it never occured to me that these sites would dupe or bot.

I also find your comments about communism, and your suggestion that it is a 'big deal' offensive. I lived in Cuba for 8 months, which is defined as a communism/socialism (same diff whatever). I found the system to work fine; a lot less homeless people anyway.

You say that buying items encourages dupers and botters; well so does trading for items! And I'm sure that everybody who plays Battle.net has traded for items, where as only a small fraction of them have bought from one of these sites.

I understand what you're saying though, and I'm sorry. I think this thread has gone a wee bit off topic, so if we could just stick to heart carver please...

[adeyke]

And I'm sure that everybody who plays Battle.net has traded for items,

I haven't.

[bigeyedbug]

I also find your comments about communism, and your suggestion that it is a 'big deal' offensive. I lived in Cuba for 8 months, which is defined as a communism/socialism (same diff whatever)

Let's see: we've got the "wacky misinterpetation", the "radical tangent", the "irrelevant personal experience" and the "absurd ignorance" all compacted into two short sentences. Quite an amazing bit of comedic congelation really.

[FenrisWulf]

@gekko:
Point taken about the particular sites that are advertised in channel, and also the eBay sellers who have a severe overabundance of items to sell: it can usually be taken on faith that these items were not acquired legitimately, and so you purchase them at the price of your moral high ground. Indeed, to deny that you likely are purchasing botted items, and to deny that you are thus supporting the activities of botters, is ridiculous. Agreed. I was simply curious about how you felt about the concept of item sale in general, and whether it is acceptable in the abstract.

My actual opinion, devil's advocacy aside, is that the sale of items for Real Life™ currency should probably not be part of the game. Blizzard should have included rules to this effect in the ToS, asked eBay to desist from presenting D2 item/character sales (much as Sony did with Everquest), and worked to shut down (using the terms of the ToS) item warehouse websites. Why? Because there is far less impetus to bot, dupe, or otherwise hack (in a way detrimental to the realm as a whole) if the only rewards are ingame. In part, this is because there are limits to the wealth you would want to acquire within D2; you're done once you have the items you need for your characters, or once you've found all of the Unique items, or similar. Also, supply and demand works effectively in a closed environment: there would be no way for an illegitimate form of acquiring items to actually be feasible in accruing a solid sense of wealth, because the value of each item in D2 (in general) relates inversely to its rarity, ie, if you stockpile items in a way that breaks their natural rarities, then they become less valuable in the process. There could still be duping and botting to a point that every item is moderately easily to acquire, but why would it ever go beyond that? The dupers and botters would get nothing out of it, aside from more worthless ingame items. Hacked items? I suspect that they would rarely be traded, and thus produced only in small quantities, because there would be nothing within the game worth enough to warrant trading.

Real Life™ money throws everything off, because the limit for "too much money" is far, far higher than the limit for "too many items". Stockpiling (ie, botting, duping) makes sense, as does mass-producing hacked items, because you will have many different prospective buyers offering $$$, which you can never have enough of, instead of items, which you no longer need. This leads to, instead of a slight distortion of the economy, a complete destruction of it, as evinced after most of the serious duping exploits. For instance, Stones of Jordan became worthless in the context of the game, but could still fetch a few dollars, so the duping of them continued. It's a vicious cycle made more so, once you affix an endless sink of earning more money.

So, even though buying legitimate items via cash may not be in direct support of botters and their associates, I still don't think that it should be allowed, because it opens the floodgates for the kind of exploitation that essentially destroyed the economy of Diablo 2.

IMO. :)

(further support: the Real Life™ prize for the second Ladder season has increased the amount of botting and hacking on the realms, though this time we're trading experience for money, instead of items)

EDIT: Added a few extra details.

[Munkay]

I also find your comments about communism, and your suggestion that it is a 'big deal' offensive. I lived in Cuba for 8 months, which is defined as a communism/socialism (same diff whatever). I found the system to work fine; a lot less homeless people anyway.

Which part is offensive? Communism is a rather big deal. Maybe you don't remember but there was that whole thing with a wall, some l33t d00d named Unkle Karl, that old coot in a wheel chair Lenin, and some haxx0r named Stalin. Red vs. Blue (and I don't mean Halo!)? The NEP? Doctors Plot? Stalin? Cuban Missile Crisis? Engels?

At the very least, and understanding of Communism and Marxist thought is a necissity to have any sense of awareness of the workings of the world around you.

And there is a difference between Communism and Socialism that goes just beyond the title. But its a common mistake, so I won't hold it against you. ;)

You say that buying items encourages dupers and botters; well so does trading for items! And I'm sure that everybody who plays Battle.net has traded for items, where as only a small fraction of them have bought from one of these sites.

Zooooom! This is the sound of a point being missed!

I understand what you're saying though, and I'm sorry. I think this thread has gone a wee bit off topic, so if we could just stick to heart carver please...

Okay, heres a good rule to stick by when discussing. I'll refer to it as the "How to make intelligent people hate you for good reason, rule"

It is 100% acceptable to say one of two things:

Either A.) A defense or critique of a point. OR B.) A redirection to the original topic.

While I am certain it is all done with good intentions, you can't combine A and B in one post without making "intelligent people hate you for good reason."

You either put a defense out and await for a new response. Or you end the conversation sans a new point. Its denying people the opportunity to critique or reply to your opinions for views. In short its telling people "this is how I feel now every shush because I'm right, new topic!"

As I said before, I know you have good intentions, but I plead with you Unreal to use that smart chunk of mass you got sitting up in your head before responding. I assure you lurkers are against what you said, not you personally. Take the time and thought to write a good defense to keep from flames, or peacefully bow out if you feel one isn't worth fighting.

Ugh, I'm tired and I apologize for the bad tone. Some things just set me off. Feel free to critique,

-Munk

[Guest]

Which part is offensive? Communism is a rather big deal. Maybe you don't remember but there was that whole thing with a wall, some l33t d00d named Unkle Karl, that old coot in a wheel chair Lenin, and some haxx0r named Stalin. Red vs. Blue (and I don't mean Halo!)? The NEP? Doctors Plot? Stalin? Cuban Missile Crisis? Engels?

I'm guessing your an American... I assure that most of the rest of the world doesn't share the same fear of communism that American's share. I doubt there is nothing I can say here that will change your mind about communism, but MHO is known... I also think that Hitler was much worse than Stalin.

Zooooom! This is the sound of a point being missed!

:huh: explain?

Okay, heres a good rule to stick by when discussing. I'll refer to it as the "How to make intelligent people hate you for good reason, rule"

Ok, in my quoted line I say that I understand where gekko is coming from, and I'm sorry I said what I said, and suggest we talk about what the thread was created for. I don't think this is baiting at all.

[gekko]

My actual opinion, devil's advocacy aside, is that the sale of items for Real Life™ currency should probably not be part of the game. Blizzard should have included rules to this effect in the ToS, asked eBay to desist from presenting D2 item/character sales (much as Sony did with Everquest), and worked to shut down (using the terms of the ToS) item warehouse websites.

I absolutely agree that real money purchasing items should be more rigorously prevented by blizzard. Personally, I feel that blizzard has been terribly irresponsable concerning diablo II. After all the "hack-free realms" propaganda they spouted, blizzard proceeds to store their characters on the realms, and every few months they delete a few accounts -- slowing the spam-bots down for, what, 8 minutes?

Let's face it -- if blizzard was really serious about having a serious impact on cheating on the realms, they would be aggresively assaulting these sites, shutting them down, and banning accounts of the spam-bots who now seem more common on b.net than actual players.

So, where does that leave us? The same place we'd be if blizzard had been aggresive and succesful at keeping the realms relatively hack-free -- there are opportunities to cheat, and there are opportunities to bend the rules. The final decision is up to you, the individual. In other words, our personal responsability is our own to deal with, whether blizzard has accepted its responsabilities or not.

Oh, and more more general note, since my mentioning "communism" seems to have been taken out of context entirely.

My comment was in no way comparing communism to ANYTHING. My comment was a comparison to the lack of understanding shown by Kramer concerning communism being a "red button" and the lack of understanding shown by Unreal concerning purchasing items being a "red button."

gekko