Uber upgrade?

[Munkay]

Edit: I quit. Bites tongue and gracefully bows out of this.

[FenrisWulf]

@gekko:
Ah, right, forgot to make that extension. :) Yes, I agree that, in lieu of Blizzard taking appropriate actions against item sale, individually not purchasing items is the next best step.

[Chaerophon]

I'm guessing your an American... I assure that most of the rest of the world doesn't share the same fear of communism that American's share. I doubt there is nothing I can say here that will change your mind about communism, but MHO is known... I also think that Hitler was much worse than Stalin.

HE NEVER INSULTED COMMUNISM!

Here's what he said:

Communism is a rather big deal. Maybe you don't remember but there was that whole thing with a wall, some l33t d00d named Unkle Karl, that old coot in a wheel chair Lenin, and some haxx0r named Stalin. Red vs. Blue (and I don't mean Halo!)? The NEP? Doctors Plot? Stalin? Cuban Missile Crisis? Engels?

Soviet Communist ideology shaped international relations for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40 years. It was a big deal. That's all that he's saying. For what it's worth, economic globalization is a big deal too. Some people like it, others don't, and some are uncertain. Are you insulted by that?

As far as this goes:

I also think that Hitler was much worse than Stalin.

I don't think that you have much to back that up with besides an amateurish puppy love with socialism. Both of them were most likely insane, or at least severely unbalanced. Both were tyrannical idealogues looking for scapegoats. Both of them killed millions.

[nameless noob]

You say that buying items encourages dupers and botters; well so does trading for items! And I'm sure that everybody who plays Battle.net has traded for items, where as only a small fraction of them have bought from one of these sites.

Zooooom! This is the sound of a point being missed!

Yes, but by who?

The point(s) that you have missed:

1) Not all items available for purchase with Real Money ™ are Duped.

2) Not all items available for purchase with real money are botted.

3) Not all items available for purchase with Real Money are doped OR botted.

4) Therefore, at least SOME of them are legit. (And possibly a majority... no way to tell)

5) An item that you trade for MAY be duped.

6) An item you trade for MAY be botted.

7) An item you trade for MAY be legit. (possibly a majority... no way to tell)

8) An item that you did not find yourself MAY or MAY NOT be legit.

If the reason you oppose item purchase is that any such purchase might not be legit, then in fairness, you must similarly oppose item trading. With so many known hacks, one can not be even reasonably sure of items one did not personally locate.

Real Life™ money throws everything off, because the limit for "too much money" is far, far higher than the limit for "too many items". Stockpiling (ie, botting, duping) makes sense, as does mass-producing hacked items, because you will have many different prospective buyers offering $$$, which you can never have enough of, instead of items, which you no longer need.

A good argument. But if you'll forgive the expression, you're simply pissing into the wind here. While Blizzard has done what it can to eliminate duping, they seem to have given tacit consent to the Cash-for-items crowd. This has grown over time and is in many respects just part of the game... So regardless of the logic you present, it just ain't so. Sorry.

"I have a life, I bought because all it did was trade time for money." Much like "the hitler argument" this one is so commonly used (despite completely missing the point of the debate, in this case), it's hard finding the energy to bother arguing back

I'm familiar with the old Usenet etiquette rules, and found Adeyke's comment amusing. Something of a "we'll never agree, so lets just drop it and you can claim victory". Hence my response "Let's make it a draw?". But I guess nobody dropped it...

Did you know that no matter how bad the problem, my Father would never call a plumber or an electrician? He could do the work himself. Never mind that it involved hours of cursing and or sweating in the attic or crawling in the basement. Never mind that an expert could do in 15 minutes what he spent a weekend on. It was a philosophical thing with him. And perhaps with you?

The decision to trade Money for Time never misses the point. The decision to do so or not is fundamental to the whole discussion, and I submit that there is no RIGHT answer to the question it raises.

The reason I wrote anything as all on this topic was the holier-than-thou almost puritanical position so many of you took in response to the mention that a desired item could be purchased. That you'd rather be cursing in the 120(F) degree attic is your decision and I'll not claim that you're evil or wrong... but when somebody casually mentions that they've considered calling an electrician to fix a similar problem, you should treat them with similar respect.

Personally, if a repair looks like it'll take me more than an hour, I call a professional. Shame on me?

-nameless noob

[FenrisWulf]

@nameless noob:
Expression forgiven. :) The main reason that I oppose item purchase, as I outlined in my post, is that it (possibly) drives botting and hacking. Just a little pet theory of mine: even in a perfect world, where the item that you buy is legitimate, the actual fact of a successful monetary trade gives way to the viability of illegitimate item purchases.

But then again, in a perfect world, there would be no duping, hacking, or botting, either. :)

So, while I do have moral qualms with item purchase, due to the practical situation that already exists, I don't think that I'll make too much fuss about it, aside from trying to make sure that whoever is considering buying items is also thinking about what they're actually doing in the process. As long as they're relatively aware of the issues at hand, then whatever they choose is, ultimately, their choice. Imagine that. :)

I don't even trade for items any more, anyway.

Thanks for the debate, all; I'm out. Um....blah blah blah Hitler. :D

EDIT: Too much "anyway".

[Trobb]

Barrid,

Thanks for the additional information. I think I'll stick with a 2h axe, I can get a 9/5 with a shaeled ethereal edge (not close to perfect but it still seems like it's nice damage). I have played a shieldless WW before and he's fun to play.

Trobb

[gekko]

If the reason you oppose item purchase is that any such purchase might not be legit, then in fairness, you must similarly oppose item trading.  With so many known hacks, one can not be even reasonably sure of items one did not personally locate.

Funny, I just use common sense when trading.

See, it's very simple to figure out which items are likely hacks/dupes, and which items are not. BotD weapons and most "elite" runewords, for example, are almost all the result of duping or botting. So I will not trade for them. On the other hand, the 20 perfect gems I just traded for were not likely found by a bot, nor were they likely hacked/duped into existance. So I have no qualms trading for those.

Now, is it possible those gems were duped? Absolutely -- I didn't find them, so I can't prove to myself or anyone else they are 100% "legit." However, that's where the common sense has to kick in.

If the reason you oppose item purchase is that any such purchase might not be legit, then in fairness, you must similarly oppose item trading.

Wrong. Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong. This argument is one of the most frequently used by those claiming purchasing items is fine. However, it's also dead wrong. Why?

You're taking my stance on hacked items far past the logical extreme. My argument consists of two parts:
(1) Items purchased from websites such as d2items.com are virtually guaranteed to be the result of hacking, duping, or botting;
(2) Purchasing such items drives the market for hacked/duped/botted items and therefore contributes to constant stream of new hacks and the use of bots to obtain these items.

You've tried to turn my arguments into:
(1) Hacked/duped/botted items are wrong;
(2) It is morally unacceptable to use hacked/duped/botted items even if you have no idea they are H/D/B'd AND could not reasonably be expected to figure out whether or not they are legit.

The difference mostly lies in how these arguments tie into my point (2): purchasing these items drives the market and contributes to H/D/B'ing. The fact is that buying items from a website gives that website a clear and distinct profit, encouraging them to continue supplying these items. Trading for items that you know are hacks (such as the older white rings, hex charms, etc) is less direct but is still supporting the hackers. Trading for items you know are almost certainly duped/botted (such as high runes, BotD weapons, etc) is where common sense should start to kick in -- if the item is likely duped/botted, then you need to simply not trade for the item. If the item is probably not duped/botted, then clearly there's no harm done.

It's simpler if you consider this from the reverse viewpoint: Let's say you consdier it OK to buy "real" items (not hacks) from a website. I cannot take this past the logical extreme and say that since you buy ANY item online, you are supporting the websites that supply hacks, and therefore you support hacking. Such an argument on my part would be clearly ridiculous, however. The only difference here is where you choose to draw the line -- I say use common sense. Common sense tells us when items are likely to be "legit" or not; common sense also tells us that by supportting websites that sell hacked items, you are fueling the next batch of hacks (whether you support hacking or not is immaterial in this case).

gekko

[Guest]

The difference mostly lies in how these arguments tie into my point (2): purchasing these items drives the market and contributes to H/D/B'ing. The fact is that buying items from a website gives that website a clear and distinct profit, encouraging them to continue supplying these items. Trading for items that you know are hacks (such as the older white rings, hex charms, etc) is less direct but is still supporting the hackers. Trading for items you know are almost certainly duped/botted (such as high runes, BotD weapons, etc) is where common sense should start to kick in -- if the item is likely duped/botted, then you need to simply not trade for the item. If the item is probably not duped/botted, then clearly there's no harm done.

I don't think anybody is denying that buying from dupers and botters is fueling the fire. I also doubt very much that anybody thinks there is the same amount of illegit items in trades as there are on websites.

[nameless noob]

If the reason you oppose item purchase is that any such purchase might not be legit, then in fairness, you must similarly oppose item trading.

Wrong. Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong. This argument is one of the most frequently used by those claiming purchasing items is fine. However, it's also dead wrong.

You know it's statements like this that really bother me. The holier-than-thou unsupported almost puritanical obsession with the rightness and wrongness of other people's activities. Consider for a moment that we might know something that you don't? If "we" all use this argument, maybe there's a good reason? Maybe then I'm only 99% wrong? Or 1% right? 1% right is infinitely more right than 0% right... and if I’m 1% right I suppose that makes you infinitely wrong?

Rejoice in your wrongness my friend! Wallow in it! Embrace it! And next time you make an absolute moral judgment like this, please, please, PLEASE make arguments directly on the point so I (or "we") can address them and not you.

You've tried to turn my arguments into:
(1) Hacked/duped/botted items are wrong;

Do you disagree with this point? This appears to be the start point for your argument even as you have stated it. If hacking/duping/botting items is NOT wrong, well then your harangue against the mere mention of item purchase seems totally out of line. Let's assume you agree that you agree that these practices are wrong (100% wrong even) and reorganize...

My argument consists of three <edit by nameless noob> parts:
(0) Hacked/duped/botted items are wrong
(1) Items purchased from websites such as d2items.com are virtually guaranteed to be the result of hacking, duping, or botting;
(2) Purchasing such items drives the market for hacked/duped/botted items and therefore contributes to constant stream of new hacks and the use of bots to obtain these items.

Point by point then?

(0) I for one am willing to concede point 0 without any quibbles.

(1) One wonders why you would assume this? You mention common sense, but I wonder the basis for said sense. My experience with retailers, both on the 'net and in the physical world is that they generally don't want to cheat me because they want me to come back for more. So the reasonable expectation here is that I should expect for-profit sites to sell legit items unless I have information to the contrary. B)

I don't argue with the Wal-Mart employee about whether the made-in-USA gloves I'm looking at are "fakes" made by slaves in China, so why would I argue with an e-tailer?

The fact that I know that hacks exist does not change this. I know that counterfeit "real" money exists, but I do not run chemical tests on the change handed to me at the grocery store. Common sense has told me to accept such things at face value. Someone who did otherwise would be called paranoid... (though I suppose that in fairness I must admit that even paranoids have enemies.)

So when I see items for sale on ebay, and when I see good feedback on the sellers, I assume that these items are legit. I'm not entirely sure WHY I should assume otherwise other than it might stop the flood of angry electrons issuing forth from your computer...

(2)This last item is also undeniably true. Purchasing or assigning value to any item drives a market for counterfeits. This is a basic economic fact, but doesn’t tell us anything special about the case at hand.

Is that a REAL Rolex ™ you are wearing? Are those genuine Honda ™ parts? Is the money in your wallet "real"? If an item is sufficiently valuable, there will be fakes. Move on people. Nothing to see here.

Nothing to see unless you believe that the existence of a market itself is WRONG... If you submit that the opportunity to trade time for money in the acquisition of items is wrong in and of itself (that is to say regardless of the legitimacy of the items being traded) then your objection is basically philosophical and neither RIGHT nor WRONG in the absolute sense, but if you call a plumber next time your pipes explode then you are a hypocrite. :P

---

So then the crux of your argument seems to be that everyone should assume that ALL (or so nearly all as not to make a difference) items of sufficiently high level are fake. We should assume this then because we know that fakes exist, and because you assure us that some (or even many) of these fakes have been sold and are available for sale as "real". Because there are so many fakes, we shouldn't even discuss the acquisition or use of such items. And, oh yes, anyone who actually has one is part of the problem and CERTAINLY shouldn't sell it or trade it.

-nameless noob

[gekko]

You know it's statements like this that really bother me. The holier-than-thou unsupported almost puritanical obsession with the rightness and wrongness of other people's activities.

What part didn't I back up? Or did you just read that and ignore the rest of my post. Fact is that you took my arguments and applied them way past the logical extreme. My opposition to hacked items in no way boxes me into opposing all trading. My opposition to trading for/buying items that are almost certainly duped in no way boxes me into opposing all items I do not know irrefutably are 100% legit. That argument made no mention of, and had no direct bearing on the right and wrong of anyone's activities. My point was that you can't box me into opposing ALL trading simply because I'm opposed to buying/trading for items that are most probably duped/hacked/botted.

My experience with retailers, both on the 'net and in the physical world is that they generally don't want to cheat me because they want me to come back for more. So the reasonable expectation here is that I should expect for-profit sites to sell legit items unless I have information to the contrary.

If you wish to wallow in that sort of ignorance, that's your choice. Fact is, it would take you all of 10 seconds to discover how wrong you are. Go to some of the more commonly spammed sites that sell items. Many now include tips on how to avoid having your items deleted. Many sell elite set pieces and runewords alongside items that clearly could not have been found by any legit means. Other than that, even rudimentary number crunching will tell you that there's no way legitimate means could support the number of items moved through these sites.

I know that counterfeit "real" money exists, but I do not run chemical tests on the change handed to me at the grocery store. Common sense has told me to accept such things at face value.

Interesting. In one post you've attempted to box me into opposing ALL item trading, and now you essentially tell me that if I don't KNOW an item is illegitimate, it's fine to accept it at face value.

See, if someone handed you a bill that, say, had the hollograms removed, I doubt you'd accept it at face value. If you suddenly heard of a massive influx of fake 20 dollar bills in your area, I suspect you'd start looking a little closer at money being handed to you. Or would you simply accept that, since you never saw the guy photocopying the bills, they MUST be real?

So then the crux of your argument seems to be that (1) everyone should assume that ALL (or so nearly all as not to make a difference) items of sufficiently high level are fake. (2)We should assume this then because we know that fakes exist, and because you assure us that some (or even many) of these fakes have been sold and are available for sale as "real". (3)Because there are so many fakes, we shouldn't even discuss the acquisition or use of such items. (4)And, oh yes, anyone who actually has one is part of the problem and CERTAINLY shouldn't sell it or trade it.

(1) There are many more duped runes than legit runes on the realms. Did you have your head in the ground during the last few dupe crazes the realms have experienced?

(2) As previously dealt with -- the numbers prove me right. These sites could not possibly acquire as much legitimate stock as they move.

(3) You may consider the aquisition of such items all you want. However, you must accept that if you trade for it, it's almost certainly duped/botted/hacked. If you buy it, you must accept the same, AND you must accept you are handing money directly to those responsable (directly or indirectly) for those hacks/bots/dupes. (NB: tell me that those sites do employ spam bots -- but never any pindle-bots or meph-bots for their items. Go ahead -- convince me of that!)

(4) As with most markets, this one is drive by purchaser, not the seller. That's why you have to accept some responsability for the hacks/dupes/bots on the realms if you purchase items online! As a consumer, you have enormous power. If everyone stopped buying items from online sites, cold turkey, no matter what the prices or items available, how long do you think they'd stay open?

You can't hide behind ignorance here, because these sites barely make any effort to conceal the types of items they sell. Those are YOUR dollars driving the next realm dupe break out.

gekko

[GentlemanLoser]

gekko;
"My point was that you can't box me into opposing ALL trading simply because I'm opposed to buying/trading for items that are most probably duped/hacked/botted."

The crux of the matter.

"You suggested that "there are websites where you can just buy those items," suggesting that such a practice is acceptable. I explained why such behavior is not acceptable -- buying items from botters encourages the botting to continue. Every dollar spent on hacked items may as well have been spent developing the next hack to hit the realms. I was not objecting to you purchasing items. I was objecting to your suggestion that purchasing items was acceptable behavior."

Earlier in this debate, the argument centred around the fact that ANY item purchases were unacceptable.

Now it seems to have shifted to, actually it's purchasing or trading hacked/duped items that is unacceptable (which I'm not commenting against).

Is it acceptable to purchase or trade (is there a difference between the two? Buying items encourages botting/duping because there is a value attached to the wanted items. This value still exists if buying with RL money is eliminated and is replaced by trading. People will continue to exploit an item with value to thier own adavatages.) items that are not duped/botted?

If so, how do you tell if an item isn't botted/duped. You suggest using common sense. But that's not infallible. So what happens if you trade/buy an item you think is legit, which you later find out (somehow..) is the product of duping/botting? IMO, the only way to be sure you don't get a botted/duped item is to never trade/buy items.

If you allow yourself to trade/buy for items that AREN'T "most probably duped/hacked/botted" then you how can you "object<snip> to <someones> suggestion that purchasing items was acceptable behavior."

Unless you do see a difference between trading and buying an item...

Sorry if I'm just going back over what nameless noob has already posted, but I consider this to be the heart of the discussion, unfettered by other tangents that might have confused the issue.

And I also apologize if I've missed anything, or am just helping to confuse things!

;)

[nameless noob]

You know it's statements like this that really bother me. The holier-than-thou unsupported almost puritanical obsession with the rightness and wrongness of other people's activities.

What part didn't I back up?

This one. You never directly refuted it. You declared it 100% wrong, said that you'd explain why, then didn't. In fact, based on your followup, I even get the feeling you agree with it:

If the reason you oppose item purchase is that any such purchase might not be legit, then in fairness, you must similarly oppose item trading.

Based on this followup:

3) You may consider the aquisition of such items all you want. However, you must accept that if you trade for it, it's almost certainly duped/botted/hacked.&nbsp; ...

From this I presume that you would oppose TRADING FOR any item that you also oppose PURCHASING with real money. Do I have this right?

(4) ... That's why you have to accept some responsability for the hacks/dupes/bots on the realms if you purchase items online! ...

Of course I do, but then so does everyone who trades for items on the realms, or who even uses items or wants to use items. When you have your "fantasy" about BOTD, you too are responsible.

It is a principle of capitalist economics that if enough people believe that something has value, a 'market' will develop for that thing. Those that think the item less valuable, or who can produce it for less than the perceived value, will 'trade' to others. So by even thinking of these items as being rare or valuable, you (and I) participate in the existence of the market.

The existence of the market itself is neither right nor wrong, but just IS. The fact that there are illegitimate items on that market is BAD, but is also predicted by economics. <Basically, Blizzard's attempt to make items artificially rare DRIVES the illicit market. The huge amount of time needed to acquire an item creates value, and the hackable system the game runs on provides means for exploitation.> If something is sufficiently valuable, and if an easy way to acquire such items exists, counterfeits WILL appear.

Example:
Did you know that you can buy a Rolex ™ on the streets of any major city for as little as $10? Does that make the purchase of any Rolex ™ wrong? The example is directly analogous.

So if you're protesting the market, good for you. Don't be so self righteous. Remember that even by protesting you are creating value. You sir are a participant so long as you play the realms.

BTW, if you really wanted to put the hackers out of business, you would hack/dupe/bot the items yourself and sell for ridiculously low prices ($.01 for 40 ZODs lets say). With no money to be made, the hackers would move on to WoW or something else, and D2 would be glutted with items... but "safe".

-nameless noob

[lfd]

So if you're protesting the market, good for you.&nbsp; Don't&nbsp; be so self righteous.&nbsp; Remember that even by protesting you are creating value.&nbsp; You sir are a participant so long as you play the realms.

How on _earth_ does that make sense?

You seem to be saying that by playing on the realms (which I do exclusively in passworded games either by myself or with friends whom I know to be as fanatical about legit play as myself), I am supporting (creating value for) dupes, hacks, cheats and bots. That's rubbish, and to make matters worse, it's presumptious rubbish.

It's worth noting that the only trading "legit" players are likely to do is within their own closed communities of trusted players; people whom they can trust to be providing items found legitimately. It's happened before that people have later discovered that they were in possession of a duped, botted or otherwise unlegit item; the usual way of dealing with this is to either sell it to Charsi or, if you'd rather not profit in any way, drop it in a game to rot.

In an ironic twist, your own quote:

The holier-than-thou unsupported almost puritanical obsession with the rightness and wrongness of other people's activities

seems to be exactly what you're doing: objecting in a holier-than-thou way about the wrongness of gecko's activities (complaining about people suggesting that they purchase items online).

BTW, if you really wanted to put the hackers out of business, you would hack/dupe/bot the items yourself

Don't even get me started on this.

[gekko]

The fact that there are illegitimate items on that market is BAD, but is also predicted by economics. <Basically, Blizzard's attempt to make items artificially rare DRIVES the illicit market. The huge amount of time needed to acquire an item creates value, and the hackable system the game runs on provides means for exploitation.> If something is sufficiently valuable, and if an easy way to acquire such items exists, counterfeits WILL appear.

This was the part of your post I really liked.

So, the illegitimate items are BAD. But it's blizzard's fault because they made the items so rare. And it's MY fault because I have a desire for a BotD weapon (even if I have never ever so much as played in a game with another person). Wow, that market must be psychic!

But it's not your fault for buying the items, no sir. You're clearly the victim here, right?

See, you say yourself that illegitimate items are bad. However, you then suggest that a player who NEVER even trades for items shares as much responsability as a player who actively purchases illegitimate items. How do you figure that one?

This part was good, too:
Did you know that you can buy a Rolex ™ on the streets of any major city for as little as $10? Does that make the purchase of any Rolex ™ wrong? The example is directly analogous.

Actually, you AGAIN are boxing me unfairly. See, I can be opposed to purchasing fake rolexes (or stolen, for that matter) and still be fine with purchasing legitimate ones. Now, how can I tell the difference? Sometimes, you can't. If someone's selling me a rolex on the street for $10, however, I can make a pretty good guess. See, this is where that whole "common sense" thing has to kick in. If you're reasonably sure an item is legit, then fine! Just don't hide behind the "if I don't KNOW it's fake, it's fine to assume it's real" excuse. Willfull ignorance is simply not an excuse.

BTW, if you really wanted to put the hackers out of business, you would hack/dupe/bot the items yourself and sell for ridiculously low prices

Oh, I'm sorry, I don't consider hacking to be a viable choice. Period. Somehow, I didn't think that would have to be explained. On a completely unrelated note, is this font large enough for you, or should I use all bold from now on? :P

gekko

[nameless noob]

You seem to be saying that by playing on the realms, ... I am supporting (creating value for) dupes, hacks, cheats and bots.

Close. I am saying that, by playing on the realms (and having fantasies about BOTD ;) ) you (and everyone else who does) are creating value for the legit items (which the hackers might choose to then mass produce and pass off as legit). If there was no -desire- for said items, it would be an exercise in futility to try to sell them. But so long as they are desired, economics tells us that a market -will- exist.

You seem to be saying that by playing on the realms (which I do exclusively in passworded games either by myself or with friends whom I know to be as fanatical about legit play as myself) <snip by nameless noob ---&nbsp;&nbsp; blah blah ----> it's presumptious rubbish.

I take it back. If you only play with elitist prigs who know the secret password, and never mingle (and rarely deign even to converse with) the unwashed masses of the realms; If all of this is true, then maybe YOU PERSONALLY haven't contributed to the value of such items.

But if that IS the case, isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to be telling those of us that you'd not invite into your closed circle how WE should go about playing the game?

:huh: :unsure: <_< :P

-nameless noob

[lfd]

If you only play with elitist prigs who know the secret password

Ignoring the poor ad hominem, and assuming that you're not just trolling, the "elitist prigs" that I play with don't reject anyone from their games outright. Anyone is welcome to take the steps necessary to discover the "secret password". People who abuse this trust are removed and not permitted to rejoin. This isn't elitist, nor is it priggish; just because *you* are not a member of a group does not make it so.

If all of this is true, then maybe YOU PERSONALLY haven't contributed to the value of such items.

There are a lot more people for whom this is true than you seem to think. Given the site that you're posting your arguments on, this seems remarkably short-sighted on your part.

But if that IS the case, isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to be telling those of us that you'd not invite into your closed circle how WE should go about playing the game?

I'm not telling you how to play the game. I'm telling you that it is arguments such as yours that have contributed to the poor state of the realms, in particular public battle.net. I solve this problem for myself by playing exclusively with people who have similar philosophies to mine. How is that forcing you to play the game in a particular way?

Edit: ph34r my l33t qu0ting sk1llz0rs.

[nameless noob]

First off, this will probably be my last post in this thread. We have gone far afield, and the original poster has long since had his question answered. If someone wishes to continue via a new thread (say in the lounge) that'd be fine.

Given the site that you're posting your arguments on, this seems remarkably short-sighted on your part.

IFD: I am forced to admit that my use of the term "prig" was a "poor ad hominem", as you so aptly termed it, and indeed shortsighted since I applied it to a group which may be large and diverse. However, I stand by, and even reinforce my use of the term elitist. Based on your own description of your group and its requirements, and its demonstrated adversity toward philosophical outsiders, elitist only begins to cover it.

I'm not telling you how to play the game. I'm telling you that it is arguments such as yours that have contributed to the poor state of the realms...

Nope, you're not telling me how to play the game; that'd be constructive. You're just saying that my way is wrong.

Good day to you sir. Sorry to have gotten underfoot.

----

gekko:

This part was good, too:

Did you know that you can buy a Rolex ™ on the streets of any major city for as little as $10? Does that make the purchase of any Rolex ™ wrong? The example is directly analogous.

Actually, you AGAIN are boxing me unfairly. See, I can be opposed to purchasing fake Rolexes (or stolen, for that matter) and still be fine with purchasing legitimate ones.

Yes, but thus far you have been opposed to both, or so it has seemed. These are from four different posts of yours. Emphasis added is mine.

I was not objecting to you purchasing items. I was objecting to your suggestion that purchasing items was acceptable behavior.

2) without you and people like you purchasing these items, the market for such botted/hacked items does not exist.
3) Therefore, by purchasing items from these websites, you are providing supporting what they do and perpetuating their existance. In other words, you may as well be doing the botting/hacking yourself.

(2) Purchasing such items drives the market for hacked/duped/botted items and therefore contributes to constant stream of new hacks and the use of bots to obtain these items.

(4) As with most markets, this one is drive by purchaser, not the seller. That's why you have to accept some responsability for the hacks/dupes/bots on the realms if you purchase items online! As a consumer, you have enormous power. If everyone stopped buying items from online sites, cold turkey, no matter what the prices or items available, how long do you think they'd stay open?

So coming back to the Rolex example. Rolexes (items) exist. People want them; because of this they have value. Because people are willing to pay (relatively) lots of money, scammers and scum exist that sell counterfeit (duped/hacked) and stolen (botted) "Rolexes". Sometimes common sense might tell us these Rolexes are illegitimate (the guy in the street in the city with the $10 "Rolex"; the D2items site that you keep bashing maybe?). Other times, the items appear to be legit, probably even ARE legit (ebay sellers? Possibly sites other than D2items? Me, if I decided to sell my BER rune?). Our analogous Rolex market then has some legitimate items surrounded by a veritable glut of illegitimate items. Just like b.net.

You seem to be arguing:
-Without people purchasing (Rolexes), there'd be no market for stolen or counterfeit (Rolexes).
-Purchasing (Rolexes) drives the market for stolen and counterfeit (Rolexes), and therefore contributes to the constant stream of new Theft and Counterfeiting.
-If everyone stopped buying (Rolexes) cold turkey, no matter what, counterfeiters and thieves would go out of business.
-Purchasing (Rolexes) is unacceptable behavior.

Now perhaps you believe that markets for "time" or for "virtual items" are somehow different at a moral or philosophical level? It would be interesting to discuss this maybe, and we even could, if your fear(?) of being pinned down didn't keep you from establishing a clear position.

Your arguments, when applied to (Rolexes) are all ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND TRUE. Putting Rolex Corp out of business would solve the problem of Rolex related crimes. What I take exception to is the explicit conclusion you draw: That the purchasers of (Rolexes) bear particular responsibility for those crimes and are each directly responsible for all such crimes. Although I may buy a Rolex, it is not reasonable to treat me as directly culpable in all previous and future Rolex related crimes.

I don't ask you to agree with peoples' decisions to purchase items, or to consider such purchases. Rather, I ask that you treat such people with courtesy at least (you and others did not) because, regardless of what some may prefer, in society at large, purchasing items IS acceptable behavior.

I hope somebody someplace found this all interesting.

-nameless noob

[gekko]

However, I stand by, and even reinforce my use of the term elitist.

If my desire to keep the average b.net pubbie player out of my games makes me an elitist, than I'm proud to be called an elitist. I have no problems stating flat out I'm very glad the average b.net player never finds his way here (or leaves promptly when discovering he is not welcome).

Nope, you're not telling me how to play the game; that'd be constructive. You're just saying that my way is wrong.

I don't see anything constructive out of telling someone else how to play the game. If a player wants to hack and dupe to their hearts content, that's between them and blizzard -- I just don't want them having an effect on MY game.

Yes, but thus far you have been opposed to both, or so it has seemed.

It may seem that way to you, but in fact, that's incorrect. However, I will admit I understand why you could get that impression.

From a moral standpoint, I'm dead set against purchasing, trading, using, or supporting the use of hacked, duped, or botted items. That much, I think, is obvious (as are the reasons behind my feelings).

EDIT:: Concerning purchasing items that are legitimate (such as ebay, etc): well assume we KNOW the item is legit, for sake of argument. While I don't have a moral objection to this, I do have an objection from a realm gamer's viewpoint -- I do believe such sales are the first step towards establishing bots/dupes/hackers on the realms. So I personally wouldn't purchase from "legit" individual sellers, and I DON'T feel this should exist for a computer game; however, I have no specific moral objection to it. I just don't like it :). ::END EDIT

Concerning trading for items that are LIKELY to have been D/B/H'd: again, I'd dead set against these. If you can be fairly certain an item is illegitimate, you shouldn't use/trade/buy it. Such practices would be akin to passing around money you suspect to be counterfeit -- while much of new counterfeit money being passed around is nearly undetectable to the untrained eye, your morals should tell you that if you suspect a bill is fake, you should NOT continue to use the money.

The problem with high level runes, runewrods, and uniques is the scale of duping KNOWN to have taken place, and the level of botting KNOWN to BE taking place. It causes ALL such items to become questionable, and this is a shame. I feel blizzard has shirked its responsabilities, allowing such widespread dupes and bots to remain on the realms. However, I refuse to hide behind blizzard's apparent indifference. Deciding to participate in the purchasing/trading of items likely to be illegitimate, and blaming blizzard for their lack of enforcement, strikes me as simply dumping personal responsability for convenience. So I choose to not participate in such actions. If you choose to do so, that's fine; however, I expect you to at least acknowledge you are likely taking part in the trading of duped/botted items.

If you admit that, you either shirk your personal responsability, or you don't care about right/wrong in these cases. As I said previously, it's a shame the realms got to this state. However, that it's a shame doesn not change your personal responsability and your personal choices in this matter.

gekko

[Baajikiil]

As I said previously, it's a shame the realms got to this state. However, that it's a shame doesn not change your personal responsability and your personal choices in this matter.

Aha, this is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this whole thread. The state of the market should have no bearing on your decision to buy illegitimate items. And *anyone* who is familiar with the market knows that a very large portion of items sold for real $ are illegitimate. Anyone purchasing such items are supporting such processes as hacking/duping/botting, and they should take some responsibility. Personally, I don't even trade at all anymore--the market showed me that I would only be supporting botters. (well, I have traded for items that I saw fall in game)

I don't go for these "situational ethics", where I decide to buy botted/duped items because they are everywhere. Just everyone else is breaking the ToS(or dealing with ones who do), doesn't mean I(or any who prefer to play legit) will.

And, when a new player asks me about BoTD, I'll tell them the facts: it is a fantasy for a normal player, and to get one, you will have to deal with those who have broken the ToS and have ruined B.net for public play.

[Butch27]

The acronym BoTD looks like an abbreviation of "botted." Something twisted inside me thinks that's kinda cute. I guess I just never thought of it in that context until this thread.