The hypocrisy has reached new levels

[LiquidDamage]

If that's the case (and I think I largely agree with you), what action can we support? Only action that isn't discriminatory? Or is there some threshold for fair discrimination between races? Obviously such a threshold exists between sexes, or for disabled people, but there are biological differences there.

Are affirmative action programs of any kind allowable? Ethnic scholarships?

It seems that this is an impossible bind: without discriminating (judging who can or can't do or get something on the basis of race), how do we rectify past racism, which by definition was racially discriminatory?

Jester

By helping those who were rendered underprivileged by it. In other words, base it on economic background.

It seems like you are ignoring Mith's suggested solution: reform inner city schools. This is obviously easier said than done, but many of the best solutions to problems are difficult to achieve. Race doesn't have a thing to do with it.

There is no reason to even look at skin color, economic disadvantage is what we are trying to fix, regardless of the reasons. Whether the child's parents are poor because of racism, natural disaster, bad luck, or just plain laziness, the child deserves the opportunity to attempt to climb out of their situation through education.

[whyBish]

(General Response - not directed at LD specifically)

To me this thread is like the ones on Israel/Palestine, due to the one-sided nature of the audience here.

How many Palestinians post here?
How many poor american minority children have internet access?

It really scares me at times to see the lack of empathy people have for others. Why b!tch about a minority lounge when you could go make friends with some of its occupants, and perhaps learn second hand about whether/why it is neccessary to have one, rather than verbalising random urges based on envy?

[Occhidiangela]

Don't generally get to go to college ($$$) unless they are athletically adroit.

[--Pete]

. . . or of opportunities.

Hi,

Discrimination is a question of attitudes. To eliminate discrimination, the concept of equality must become embedded in the culture. Must become a fundamental part of each individual's attitude. As long as there is no equality, regardless of which way the preference is given, there will be discrimination which leads to envy which leads to hate. Forty three years ago I moved to Atlanta where I heard all the reasons why segregation should continue. Now I live in Seattle, and I hear exactly the same reason why there should be affirmative action.

Your "dynamic view" has led us full circle from "blacks should be kept separate because they are inferior" to "blacks should be given special consideration because they are inferior". I reject both statements because they are both based on an invalid premise. At any individual endeavor, some people are inferior. some superior. That is a trait of individuals, not of races.

As long as the pendulum is kept in motion by individuals more interested in the advancement of their agenda than the good of the people they claim to represent, so long will it keep oscillating between one bad extreme and the other. Only when the pendulum is allowed to come to a stop will the moderate middle have a chance to endure.

Equal opportunity, equal consideration, equal treatment. Eliminate the consciousness of irrelevant differences by eliminating the effects of those differences, not by emphasizing them.

Divisive policies will never, IMO, lead to a united society.

--Pete

[Doc]

Scary

For once, I am finding that I agree with Pete and everything he said.

Nicely put BTW.

[Occhidiangela]

"Black racists in America are some of the worst hypocrites I have ever encountered, who are unable to look forward.  Again I am struggling to see your point. I would put it to you that at least the black racist, as opposed to the white racist, is able to see the past."

You did indeed miss the point, perhaps due to my inelegance of expression. The perpetuation of the myth of the past as the present condition and its attendant justifucation for their discrimination/racism/hate is the hypocrisy that so frustrates me.

I would put it to you that at least the black racist, as opposed to the white racist, is able to see the past

What? You claim a white racist can't see the past? Where do you get that from? He seems to me trapped in the past. The problem is with the view each and any racist has with the present and future!

That line of yours is nonsensical. Both the white racist and the black racist see the past through different lenses, both cracked, and both apply it to the present and future differently: IMO under flawed premises. What made ML King's message so strong was his firm moral and principled foundation.

"At least a black racist can . . ." What, you are excusing racism? That's not Bishy like at all.

A black racist trapped in the past is as bad as a white racist trapped in the past: I excuse neither, as neither sees a future with the other in it as a good neighbor, which is the whole problem to start with.

[WarLocke]

For once, I am finding that I agree with Pete and everything he said.

I don't find it all that odd, Doc. You and Pete are two of the wisest (yes I said wisest, but don't let it go to your grumpy head! ;) ) and generally best-informed posters here in (at?) the Lounge (a distinction shared by Occhi and a few others, but we're talking about you two here).

If anything, I'm surprised that you and Pete clash so often. You and he often agree (for the most part) on topics you both post to (mostly the political threads, which I for obvious reasons don't often participate in); it just seems to me that (for whatever reason) your personalities just don't mesh well. Which is a shame, in my opinion.

Ah well, enough of my rambling. How're you doing nowadays, Doc?

[Chaerophon]

nt

[kandrathe]

I agree that there is little data management (or cooking the numbers) . But, the primary law of statistics is that correlation does not indicate causality.

Without deeper research and analysis into the source of the data you cannot make determinations as to whether or not the system is racist.

It could be that blacks commit more crimes per capita, or that blacks commit more crimes that are investigated. I'm asking for more variables to be analyzed. Why was a case dropped, or prosecuted by the DA? How about arrest and investigation information (where, when, how, who) and is there a correlation to the amount of resources that are devoted to convicting criminals and the regions where these minorities live. The flaw with pointing to the data and claiming racism, is that there is no place in that data that proves that non-blacks commit the same ratio of crimes, but are not caught or convicted.

But apparently blacks are far more likely to get locked up for it.

That conclusion is not supported by those numbers. One would need to show a disparity between crimes committed by race, to arrests by race, to convictions by race. If the disparity is between crimes committed and arrests, then the police are not arresting the non-black criminals. If the disparity is between the arrests and convictions, then the prosecutors are not convicting the the non-black criminals. For convictions, you need to look at recidivism. Courts are more likely to be more lenient for younger, and first time offenders.

Thus my point that racism isn't dead.

I don't think it is either. I don't know if it ever will be. Xenophobia seems to be a human trait.

[whyBish]

That line of yours is nonsensical.

Yeah, exactly my point! What does arguing (poorly) using generalisations about (some vague group of) racist hypocrites have to do with affirmative action - and a minority lounge for study purposes - in particular?

As to Petes point, I understand and *agree* with the concept of a world without discrimination, but how can that be achieved when the starting position is inequality for a particular group (especially re: assets)?

(Quite likely poor ;) ) example for illustration:
Banks. They are not legally allowed to discriminate based on gender, ethnicity, age etc., but are allowed to discriminate based on relevant stats such as security. Security depends on what assets you have, which is partly based on what was handed down to you, and partly based on what you have saved from income. Income also depends partly on education, which depends on what (in big part) your parents could afford, which depends on what their assets were. So you could quite concievably live in a world where 'discrimination' ended a generation or more ago, and still be part of a group that can't get a loan (-> to be able to get an education -> to generate assets)

(I feel like I am arguing for communism :P )

So be glad that all you are being asked to 'pay' is for one minority lounge.

[--Pete]

Hi,

As to Petes point, I understand and *agree* with the concept of a world without discrimination, but how can that be achieved when the starting position is inequality for a particular group (especially re: assets)?

First, don't give me "assets". My parents and I came to the USA in 1951. We had a couple of suitcases and less than $100. They were both in their 30's and had only the equivalent of a high school education. I was a few days short of 6. Now in their 80's, they are living comfortably in their own house in a relatively expensive suburb near Atlanta. I was able to get through enough of the educational system to earn a Ph.D. You don't need "assets", just a willingness to work for what you want and a lack of unnecessary obstacles. I am not claiming that we faced the discrimination which blacks face, but neither were we welcome with open arms.

But let's look at what you said again: you ask how a world without discrimination could come about, and you imply that it will come about through discrimination. The logic of that reasoning seems lacking to me.

How does a world without discrimination come about? I'd guess by removing the discrimination. First by removing the legalized discrimination (the Jim Crow laws, the segregation in public places and in schools). Then by outlawing the overt forms of private discrimination. Where there are injustices, such as the contrast between inner city and suburban schools, that too needs to be addressed. But you don't address an unfair school system by lowering the bar for the products of the inferior schools. And you for sure don't do it by assuming that all blacks went to inferior schools and all whites went to prep schools.

But the final step will always have to be in the minds of the people. And that will never come about as long as even one minority lounge (or majority one, for that matter) exists. As long as there is the "them and us" attitude that restricts the use of any space by skin color, for that long will there be hate based on skin color.

--Pete

[Doc]

Not sure how to classify this, mayhap as an aside.

The "Us vs Them" factor has changed considerably. "Them" has become the minority. Now, I am probably going to stuble here with my poor grasp of how to put stuff, but, like a ruling upper class lording over the endless masses of the poor, "Them" has managed to keep it's seat of power by fear. I believe most of "Them" realize they are no longer the majority. A lot of what remains now is for the "Us" folks to get up the balls and do what those kids did. Walk into a place where normally they are not totally welcome and try to break down a few barriers. Er, for the sake of simplicity, the mobs of poor need to throw off the rule of the oppressive upper class. Only in this case, the rule of fear by the supremacists on BOTH sides. I married a white woman. And I am not alone. I see more and more mixed race marriages in my area. And it has made my heart glad. The old guard still likes to say stuff, but I am guessing, with all of the mixed marriages I am starting to see, pretty soon the old guard's children are going to be out numbered. Not in my life time.

But the seeds of change have been planted. Now to keep the weeds out of the garden.

[Mithrandir]

Gonna try and tackle a large portion of this thread at once, so bear with me :)

Edit: No idea why the quote tags aren't working.

Edit2: ... and now they are. Interesting. :huh:

It could certainly be argued that if you had received 12 or 13 years of lousy education from lousy teachers, you might be perceived as undeserving of higher education. If we agree that being poor gets you a worse education, and that a far greater percentage of minorities are poor than whites, then one would have to suspect that these programs are not especially poorly targeted.

The problem is that they don't *have* to be "in the general ballpark" of the problem. They can hit it firmly on the head by basing advantages given out upon economic brackets, rather than race, and avoid all the inherent racism in their proposal to boot.

More minorities get a chance at a decent education, and if they can't hack it, they wash out and try something else.

What does that do to the psyche of an individual though? Personally, to know that I was purposely thrust into a situation in which my chances of prospering were at low merely so that some other individual could further his or her agenda would leave me extremely bitter, etc.

"Throw 'em in there and if they fail it's no biggie!" certainly sounds like an amoral statement at best, no?

My proposition is that while your friends are quiet and respectful, they have probably dealt with many who were not.

They were keeping to themselves and had been for several minutes. They were told to leave nonetheless. If this had been any other situation, those moderators would have been dragged over the coals for stereotyping certain individuals as "trouble makers" based solely upon the color of their skin. I see no difference in this situation.

This may be a place where "the minorities" can congregate and be together to help them build a "community".

A "community" based solely upon one's skin color, utterly refusing to allow anyone different admittance is not a community. It's a clique. A clique based upon stereotypes and feelings of mistrust and hate, much less.

The irony of the situation, that I mentioned in passing in the original post, is that they are even hypocritical about it being a lounge meant to provide services to all minorities. Only portraits of African Americans line the walls and they totally refuse to even consider adding more portraits to, at the very least, round out their collection to include other minority leaders. They would probably keel over and die if I even suggested a portrait of some Caucasian hero.

Minority specific fraternal and sorority organizations are able to discriminate based on race. When I was at the University, there were any number of campus groups that discriminated who could become members (e.g. Campus Lesbians, Muslim Prayer Group, and a plethora of ethnic groups). Take my example of the Muslim Prayer Group. They had a very nice place, and it was a very spiritual place, but it was set aside for followers of Islam. So, imagine now that 200 Christians were allowed to also use the space displacing the 2 dozen Muslims. It would become a Christian place, and cease being a place where the Muslims would feel comfortable. These special islands are very important for minorities to have an identity as minorities, amongst the ocean of homogenization that happens within the University.

Fraternities and sororities have their activities on private property. University property, on the other hand, is heavily publicly-funded and (perhaps more importantly :) ) I am also dumping a lot of money into it. On yet another ironic side note, University officials have hardly as pure of motives as it appears at first glance. Even after the AA victories in the Supreme Court, a band of high-profile alumni donors got together and refused to supply donations unless the University amended its AA stance? What does the Holier-Than-Though Pure-of-Motive University do? Why, they quickly amended the number of points given to minority applicants down from the ridiculous levels they were at previously to a slightly more modest level. The moneybags barely flex their muscles, and the University drops its previously cherished convictions like a bad habit and gets on its hands and knees and begs for the Moolah IV to be plugged back in. If they truly believe in this cause so heartily, why do they not fight for it harder? A bunch of hypocrites. Pathetic.

Then you bring up various campus groups. These groups don't deny services or access to resources to others not part of the group. Also, I almost guarantee you that even if you weren't as lesbian (for example) that they would absolutely love for you to attend their meetings nonetheless. Posters are common all around campus inviting "anyone and everyone" to attend these gatherings.

I am challenging this notion. We are not all the same, and we should not be forced to be the same. How does one differentiate themselves in society if one is not allowed to have express their differences in gender, race, religion, ethnicity, or sexual preferences.

There is a huge difference between expressing your individuality and discriminating against people based solely upon something as disgustingly superficial as one's skin color by denying them access to basic services, public property, and so on. I am part of the Caucasian community and yet I have never felt the need to use discrimination against others as a crutch upon which to "express my individuality". I see no reason why anyone of any other ethnic decent would for some magical reason need to discriminate to express themselves.

So my observation of how the courts work is that the crux of "what is discrimination?" is that as long as the white students are served with similar areas where they can study peacefully, then discrimination is not occurring against the "class" of whites but only to those that want to study in every area.

Well that's sort of the gist of the whole thing, is it not? As stated in the original post, the "Minority Lounge" is basically the nicest, most easily accessible, and quietest lounge on campus. Caucasians are denied access to it because they are Caucasian. That is discrimination. I see no middle ground.

Should the NAACP be forced by the courts to accept white people? I believe the courts would examine the "Harms" to both sides and award compensation to the "class" where discrimination caused harm.

As Pete pointed out, the NAACP does have many Caucasian members and supporters :)

Where I live, it's still segregated. Instead of whites only, it's signs proudly proclaiming "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Lots and lots of black students end up in "special ed" class rooms when they fail rigged competency tests. White businesses still hire white folks, while many black business hire only black folks, which is shameful. And stupid. Strip clubs for white folks, strip clubs for black folks, and the racially mixed strip clubs always end up in the news papers for the worst most cartoony bar room brawls you can imagine, and the local politicians point to this behavior and loudly proclaim that we need to bring back segregation.

I honestly was not aware that stuff such as this still occurred in this country. It makes me sick just reading about it. I am disgusted that a cadre of sad individuals feel the need to perpetuate these warped stereotypes and delusions because they are too weak-willed and poor of heart to see the world through lenses not corrupted with hate.

That said... I know it is corny, but I still cannot help but feel that "Two wrongs don't make a right." Reverse discrimination (or just plain discrimination as WL would point out ;) can never make the situation any better. It might succeed to shrouding the problem for a time, but in the end the wound will just fester until eventually bursting over and being ten times worse than it ever was.

On the second point, I don't see any difference in facilities between the two. Should I camp out in the toilets of the opposite gender complaining of discrimination and wait for things to change? Both 'sides' need those facilities, in your case on campus there are plenty of places to study and you are complaining about one facility that is by AA dedicated to a group that you do not belong?

It's not so much an issue of equal or unequal facilities between men and women bathrooms, more like our society has just developed into just believing that men and women strangers shouldn't be showering, excreting waste, etc. around each other. No bigotry or hate or discrimination is involved, it's just how things evolved over the ages. Although I will admit that it is a rather odd hang-up.

As to our second point... As stated above, it's basically the nicest lounge on campus. But that's a moot point. Even if it wasn't, it would still stand as a shining beacon of hypocrisy and herald the disgusting nature of discrimination and all that it entails. It is our duty as a society to not let the "little wrongs" and "little injustices" go unchecked because those "little" things have a tendency to sprout into mammoth-size problems. Then at that point, you would have already set a precedent of being uncaring in the matter. No, I wholeheartedly believe that if you truly believe in something you must fight for it tooth and nail, or else you aren't fighting for it at all.

You seem to be saying that you agree with affirmative action as long as everyone is treated as equal? This essentially rules out AA completely.

AA's intent is to provide assistance to the poor in receiving a quality higher education. It takes a huge stereotype of "all minorities are poor" (especially African Americans) are treats it as fact. Dump the stereotype. Stop lying about who you're really trying to help, and assist those people that deserve it.

I went into much greater details about how I feel it should be done above (basically: go to the root of the problem and fix the horrible state of inner city/poor schools so that underprivileged individuals would have an equal shot right from the start and wouldn't need special programs to vault them into higher education because they would be starting off at the same educational level).

Finally, as to the pension, it is not given to those that put in what you suggested . It is given to everyone that reaches a specific age, some of who have done nothing to deserve it, so I see no difference.

Pensions are given to those who have been employed for a certain period of time. If they had not been working hard, shown loyalty, etc. they wouldn't be employed now would they? :)

If the tables are tilted one way for a long time, and then centered(equality) then the ball is still going to be on the (white) side, from now to eternity. If you tip it back the other way *for a short time* then at least it can come back closer to the center when it is time to 'centre the table'.

Who is to decide how long the "tables are turned"? What do you tell the people that you are knowingly and purposefully being repressed for the benefit of others? How long are the tables turned? What do you do when you turn them back? How do you handle the reactions of the individuals who are givens benefits, and then promptly stripped of them once this arbitrary individual has decided "Time's up!" (almost as if he was baking a cake)? Ad infinitum.

The fact of the matter is, the entire concept of "we'll just tip the scale for a teensy weensy bit" is failed right form the get-go. It would be a bad policy even if you're weren't purposely bringing suffering down upon others.

Yes, lets stop minorities from having a peaceful place to study. Brilliant.

What's wrong with any of the innumerable other places to study on campus? You're making it out to seem as if minorities are being dragged from their rooms and lynched on the streets. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Check what the state of Oklahoma had to say about race and incarceration. Note table three: nationwide, 1099 blacks per 100,000 were incarcerated, the total for whites being just 165 per 100,000. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer a slightly worse chance to get into university over being six times as likely to be thrown in jail. White guys have it so tough these days!

It's a given fact that African Americans are poorer than Caucasians on average in this country. It's also a given fact that poorer individuals are much more likely to get arrested, put in jail, etc. due to their unfortunate situation. Find out what percentage of those 100,000 African Americans are poor and what percentage of the Caucasians are poor. You'll have your answer right there.

And yet you passed up an opportunity to practice your arguments on me when I defended affirmative action upthread.

I was pressed for time and had only enough time to respond to Occhi's post. No reason to take pot-shots and stroke your e-peen junior.

I reiterate: when you consider that blacks are more likely to grow up in single parent homes (see above) AND more likely to receive a poor education, perhaps a black is more likely to appear less qualified than a white is, given similar talents. Do you care to refute this or will it remain unchallenged?

Okay, now I'm starting to get a bit frustrated... does no one read what I type?

I wholly admit that African Americans are more likely "to grow up in single parent homes (see above) AND more likely to receive a poor education". In fact, I have said this in basically every single post I have made in this thread. They are more likely to grow up with a single parent and receive a poor education themselves because their own parents got a poor education, which led to much more impoverished conditions, which leads to them not receiving a good education either - further perpetuating the vicious loop.

However, AA is not the answer (as I have been harping and harping and harping upon in this thread). Hit the problem at its core: the horrible state of low-income/inner-city public schools in this nation rather than slapping on the band-aid that AA is. AA sticks individuals who have not had the base of knowledge they require to usually be effective at a collegiate academic level. Work hard at making inner-city schools (at the very least) roughly equivalent to schools in richer areas and you start to give those individuals the base of knowledge they require to effectively compete as college applicants without putting them in situations for which they are not prepared.

We don't need AA. We don't need the disgusting discrimination inherent within it.

[kandrathe]

Whew! That's quite a bit of digestion.

I'll only comment on one part since this horse is just nigh of glue now.

A "community" based solely upon one's skin color, utterly refusing to allow anyone different admittance is not a community. It's a clique. A clique based upon stereotypes and feelings of mistrust and hate, much less.

This statement in conjunction with Doc's rally for more assimilation, makes me wonder of the future of the "culture" of these minorities. The black community in America had it rough since their inherited culture is one of enslavement and discrimination. I'm not the right person to ask if they have a "culture" worth saving. But, some minorities have retained a foothold to their culture, for example native americans. Being a member of an Indian Nation, does not require one to hate. It celebrates and gives honor to their heritage. I happen to be 100% Swede, and so I am more keenly aware of our family and ethnic traditions. But, I want my children to know the history of our ancestors and the plight of all the peoples who have come to America. So that they might be sensitive to the suffering of all people, and never allow it to happen to anyone ever again. Some fled from Hitler, and war in Europe, others came here as slaves, some came for prosperity and adventure. We are all Americans now.

But, back to the lounge for one second. I don't suppose that it just happened one day that a bunch of people took over the lounge, so you might go look into the history of how that place became the minority lounge. I'm sure that whoever did it, had to have convinced the university administration to do it. It might be that giving the minorities a lounge is a small recompense for past harms committed by the university against minorities. Maybe it was a condition of a huge endowment from a wealthy black person. That does not make it right, but you are correct that Universities twist themselves into knots pandering for cash. Maybe these black students just need a place where they can be black, one black oasis in a sea of homogenized milky whiteness.

[WarLocke]

edited- please read PM, Warlocke.

-Griselda

[Doc]

Where to begin?

Culture is a fine and wonderful thing. Till it kicks you in the teeth. In my quests to find out more about my culture, I got bashed three ways to Sunday for "worshipping the white man's god" and "having the white man's money." Not much is worse then being rejected by your own kind. What ever and whom ever they might be. As I have stated many times, there is much bitter irony in those statements, considering they came from a man hooked on "the white man's fire water." Don't even get me started on my issues with Tribal Casinos. "You gave us alcoholism, we give you gambling addiction. Fair trade eh?" Getting closer to my culture was one of the worst mistakes of my life. Out of all the minorities in America, I don't think I have ever met an angrier bunch. One day the silent seething masses will have their revenge, served in a way only they could. Slowly creeping up unheard and unoticed, and terrible fury unleashed with a woop and a holler. I want no part of it.

In many cases, those teaching culture are also teaching their own hidden agendas along with it as well. This is not my opinion, this has been what I have found time and time again. And most of them lace it with propaganda and slant. And I find that, well, icky. Just plain icky. I would use other words, but the mods would start beating on me instead of Old Gluey.

To use my self as an example, right now I am getting a crash course in Scottish Culture. Lots of it. I am going to a clan gathering with my wife, who is, you guessed it, a Scottish Lass. And it's been a hoot. I have had more fun learning about all of this stuff then I ever did learning about my own culture. I have been given something to embrace. I have been fitted for a kilt, made from a special tartan pattern made just for me. I am a clanless barbarian, an outsider, and I have been made most welcome, and I suspect I will be "adopted" or something when I go. Something is up, that's all I know. And I suspect my wife knows more then she lets on. I have absolutely no idea what I am getting in to, but I look forward to it all.

And that's kinda my point. Everything should not be melted down to unknown status here in the melting pot. Culture is important, but, perhaps, not our own. Maybe there should be more of "Adopting a member of another culture" or mayhap a holiday based on the principal idea of that sort of thing. Instead of a Black History Month, there should be a "Be Adopted By a Black Family Month." Or week. Or whatever. Sort of like a student exchange. Or something. Not sure how to put it.

Embrace a culture that's not your own. It's a sure fire way to bring about a little peace and harmony.

[Occhidiangela]

Face to face and in close quarters, as I have, I wonder at how far our conversation can go?

Racists hiding behind entitlement: hypocrites and arseholes of the first water. And here is the really stupid and hate driven piece of the argument: "It's our turn to be discriminatory, how does it feel?"

Effing brilliant.

[Guest]

Its just a name give traditions that serve no purpose.

If people like inane idiosyncrasies of their lineage - fine.
As soon as this "culture" is encouraging anything bad - its people fault for following it.


NOTE: This wasnt aimed at anyone, I just am sick of hearing about culture as though its valuable.

[Doc]

No, culture can have it's finer points, aside from race even.

Look at hacker culture. Or the various sports cultures. Pop culture.

And ethnic culture has it's place. It's because we have ethnic culture that we have special gumbo recipies passed on from one generation to next. As to the other side of the coin, this can be bad, as things like lutefisk also get passed from one generation to the next. (Lovers of lutefisk, please have mercy and do not flame me, and, for the love of God, don't breathe on me! I am armed with curiously strong Altoids, and I know how to use them.)

Culture is history. It tells us how we got where we are, and, if we study it, might tell us where we are going. Culture is music and art and all those things enlightened society cherishes. It's poetry.

With such an awful blanket statement obviously intended to be trollish, I will ask nicely, all things considered, still think culture is a joke? Or, Ghostiger, will you continue to try and fish for a good flaming? I am curious to what you might have to say.

[WarLocke]

edited- please read PM, Warlocke.

-Griselda

Yeah, sorry, I'll think before posting next time. :(

EDIT: Wha? This was supposed to be an edit. I mean, the other post was supposed to be editted. Argh.