The hypocrisy has reached new levels

[Guest]

I think at the core of many2 problems between groups of people is culture.

The other obvious causes being
-religion(some might or might not call this culture)
-money
-land/property
-power

While its a shame that any strife exists the last 4 points are legitimate(3 if youre an athiest) concerns which which do matter. In a sense the last 3 are all the same.

Culture isnt important. Its a safety net for weak minds that gives them a meanongless sense of security in the world.
And unfortunetly protecting this meaningless nothing is often used as an exscuse to fight.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Define what you mean by "culture".

--Pete

PS The online M-W definition is:

Main Entry: 1cul·ture
Pronunciation: 'k&l-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin cultura, from cultus, past participle
1 : CULTIVATION, TILLAGE
2 : the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education
3 : expert care and training <beauty culture>
4 a : enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training b : acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills
5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation
6 : cultivation of living material in prepared nutrient media; also : a product of such cultivation

I can see where you don't care for it, especially in meanings 2, 4a, 5a. However, given your faculty with "nutrient media", I would think meaning 6 would be dear to you.

[Occhidiangela]

c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation

Or, for that matter, any self defining social grouping. (Hispanicss anyone? Oh, sorry, are the self defined Mexicans and Puerto Ricans fighting about who rules Hispanica, again?)

This usage of culture is what is used, it seems to me, to excuse RAP being played on the radio without any FCC action, and what allowed Mick Jagger to make a friggin' bundle 30 years ago: the so called "counter culture!" (No, that's not the shared attitudes of waitresses at our nation's diners and truck stops!) :lol:

BTW: you got a RL LOL out of me with the culture medium jab! :D

[Count Duckula]

(Moderators, please feel free to get after me for saying this, but I must do it.)

Ghostiger, you're constantly posting sweeping generalizations and opinions without backing them up with fact or anything else, and then somebody posts a response citing your lack of thought, and then you whine about how everyone treats you unfairly. Tell me, have you ever thought about why this happens?

Culture isnt important. Its a safety net for weak minds that gives them a meanongless sense of security in the world. And unfortunetly protecting this meaningless nothing is often used as an exscuse to fight.

Culture, at least for me, gives me a sense of place in the world. I know my history and ancestry, my likes and my dislikes, and my general behavior patterns. While I don't use Judaic, Otaku, or cyberpunk culture to dictate my everyday activities, they're like a foundation, and give me a sort of guide through my life.

Now I sound like an evangelist. But certainly not Robert Tilton.

[Guest]

But as I have noted before you sometimes dont have perspective on the wealth of facts you are familier with.

[Guest]

Indeed we all do have a culture. But from my perspective its not something we should be proud of(nor ashamed mind you). But I think we do better when when form our beleifs on reason rather than culture.

Culture is part of humanity - but it should never be an exscuse for mistreating people.




NOTE: I suppose you could go down the road of saying my respect for humanity is an artifact of culture. Thats true but I think we need to willing to discard problem elements of culture as we relize conflicts with in it, and we must use reason to make these choices.

[WarLocke]

May I make a suggestion?

That "Edit" button is really neat. You should try it out, sometime.

[Archon_Wing]

Here's my take on your link:&nbsp; only 18 Asian-Americans incarcerated in the entire state of Oklahoma!&nbsp; They have the highest per capita income and the lowest crime rates nationwide, even better than European-Americans in both categories.&nbsp; Yet they face more than their fair share of bigotry.&nbsp; I think there is a cultural dynamic at play here, and I don't think affirmative action politics do a darn thing to help the situation.

That's one reason I think the whole situation is crap. I'm Asian. I sure as hell didn't "reap the benifits of oppression" Maybe Asians weren't enslaved but there were pretty much a despised minority who were not welcome by others. Through popular culture, I don't think the view of Asians is too positive either.Of course it doesn't matter that a good deal of Asian Amercians came here not too lately with few posessions and had to struggle with whatever little they had. But somehow usually Asians aren't considered a minority that needs help. Where's my benifit? Should I cry everytime I meet the next asshole who goes "you speak English?" in a condescending tone? Now sure, maybe Asians are about <5% of the poipulation and haven't been as longer since so they don't really matter. They're not a signifigant minority. Hyprocrisy? I'm no stranger to racism, but I'm quite sure that as long as we keep thinking about race, and dividing them up by race it's certainly not going to solve the problem. Race is way embedded into our culture and maybe the right direction is to find a way to get over it.

There are many points in this thread that made me think. Affirmative Action tries to help disadantaged folks by getting them into highter education but we seem to not care about dooming them to inferiority for the first 17 years. I mean seriously, if we were to give extra funding to schools that perform well, can't we see the obvious consequence? Which school is going to do better? The school in a upper middle class where parents can afford tutors or a school in a working class area where walking to school might be dangerous. Isn't it obvious which school we should be looking after more. Instead of making some half-assed effort to make up for the disadvantges poor students go through because they had crappy conditions, how improving those conditions? Can anyone expect kids to magicaly succeed when they've been given substandard education for so long?

Alas, this thread has a lot of stuff to digest. I'll be back to organize my thoughts, if I ever get to it. :)

[Occhidiangela]

There are many points in this thread that made me think.

In that case, then the collective effort put into this conversation, of varying quality, has been well worth it. :D The thread inspired a thought or two in my overcaffeinated brain as well.

[Archon_Wing]

many other discussions. Usually discussions over this lead to heated flame wars and pointless labels being thrust upon the opposition such as "mornonic tree-hugging irrespoinsible liberals or "narrow-minded backward tyranist conservatives" Intrestingly I think I've been called some variation of both. :D

[Doc]

I was once called a "Nazi Communist Long Haired Hippy F****t Junky." Or something to that effect. I sat in total stunned awe because the latern jawed cretin that called me that proved beyond all shadow of a doubt his stupidity.

I won't even bother explaining why, I am sure most of you can figure it out ;)

[WarLocke]

I am sure most of you can figure it out

Uh... You aren't Aryan? ;)

Heil!

[Sir_Die_alot]

many other discussions. Usually discussions over this lead to heated flame wars and pointless labels being thrust upon the opposition such as "mornonic tree-hugging irrespoinsible liberals or "narrow-minded backward tyranist conservatives" Intrestingly I think I've been called some variation of both.

When radicals on both side hate you that's probably a good sign. B)

[Doc]

All jokes aside...

Nazism and Communism are clashing forms of Governments. In both, long hairs, hippies, homosexuals, etc, would not be tolerated. The Lantern Jawed Man's comment totally self destructed and became something of an impossibility due to conflicting and contrasting extremes.

And I should apologize if I have offended anybody around here that might be lantern jawed. I am trying to live up to my new year's resolution not to judge anybody by the colour of their... neck.

[kandrathe]

Maybe Asians weren't enslaved but there were pretty much a despised minority who were not welcome by others.

I seem to recall that much of dangerous construction (e.g. transcontinental railroad in the western US) were built by press ganged asian labor. Just another form of slavery really.

"...The Chinese!...that population...are to be to California what the African has been to the South...", The California Farmer, May 25, 1854

[Nystul]

There are many points in this thread that made me think. Affirmative Action tries to help disadantaged folks by getting them into highter education but we seem to not care about dooming them to inferiority for the first 17 years. I mean seriously, if we were to give extra funding to schools that perform well, can't we see the obvious consequence? Which school is going to do better? The school in a upper middle class where parents can afford tutors or a school in a working class area where walking to school might be dangerous. Isn't it obvious which school we should be looking after more. Instead of making some half-assed effort to make up for the disadvantges poor students go through because they had crappy conditions, how improving those conditions? Can anyone expect kids to magicaly succeed when they've been given substandard education for so long?

You are right on target here. But it's not an easy thing to solve by any means. Even if you make that ghetto school have a teacher for every ten kids, state of the art buildings, new books every year, and a computer lab for every class, how can you make up for the kids not having any help at home because they have single working parents, or kids (and sometimes teachers) who have to worry more about gang activity than course work, or entire classes full of kids who just don't care about their education? Funding the schools is something that can be done with help from the outside, but some of these issues will have to be addressed from within the community.

Sometimes the opportunity is there, and people just aren't prepared to accept it. A plane crashed into the World Trade Center apparently because a large group of passengers did not stand up to a few thugs with box cutters. I think some urban problems are similar. There are many opportunities available, certainly much more so than 40 years ago, but it requires focus and leadership from within those specific communities. The kind of focus and energy that once was there to fight discrimination, I think may need to be renewed to fight more internal problems like gangs, drugs, and working as a community to help kids get that education. Either that, or it will just be up to the kids to grab their bootstraps and work themselves out of the ghetto and into college. And if they are able to use that education to contribute back to the old community in some way, all the better.

[whyBish]

1)I honestly was not aware that stuff such as this still occurred in this country.

2)Pensions are given to those who have been employed for a certain period of time. If they had not been working hard, shown loyalty, etc. they wouldn't be employed now would they? :)

3)Who is to decide how long the "tables are turned"? What do you tell the people that you are knowingly and purposefully being repressed for the benefit of others? How long are the tables turned? What do you do when you turn them back? How do you handle the reactions of the individuals who are givens benefits, and then promptly stripped of them once this arbitrary individual has decided "Time's up!" (almost as if he was baking a cake)? Ad infinitum.

The fact of the matter is, the entire concept of "we'll just tip the scale for a teensy weensy bit" is failed right form the get-go. It would be a bad policy even if you're weren't purposely bringing suffering down upon others.

4)What's wrong with any of the innumerable other places to study on campus? You're making it out to seem as if minorities are being dragged from their rooms and lynched on the streets. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Sorry to keep this thread going. I am doing a poor job holding up the spade at the other end of this arguement, but I just feel something is not quite right :P

I'll try to address some of the points you have called me on. Like I responded to Pete, I do agree with the idea of a place without discrimination (~well discrimination that is not 'for good reason' anyway, cf pensions et al.), I just think getting frazzled over something so small is a waste of energy (although I'm sure Pete would say, most everything is a waste of energy). All I am really trying to point out is that, like nicely stated by Doc, there is an opportunity here to go make some friends. 'Them' over there in the minority lounge, go invite 'them' over to dinner, or your own place of study, or whatever. You have no beef with them as far as I can see, it is with administration. Perhaps I have taken you wrong in this thread on that point.

As to 1) I was brought up in NZ in a township in NZ that was 80% 'native'. Discrimination here ended around 150 years ago (although that would be a serious point of contention ;) ), we have already celebrated the 100th anniversary of the female vote, and are not far away from celebrating 100 years since the first 'native' was elected to National parliament, My parents had many friends including 'native' couples (Sorry, this 'native' label is hard to use, but probably best for international illustration), 'mixed race' couples (again these terms sound near-absurd to me), and 'white couples'. I never thought that there was any racism in NZ, and always thought that what I saw on Oprah, and S.J.R. etc. was staged. I could never comprehend such attitudes. But, as I grew, I found out different. The 'mixed' couple went for a holiday down south (where 'natives' are very uncommon), and were stared at as they walked into pubs??? My Auntie way down south relayed the story of how her dog started barking at the new postman, it was the first 'native' they had ever seen. Our school 'seniors' went on a trip to the University (about four hours). I was walking through the shops with one of my friends, a 'native', Head 'prefect' of the school no less, and some of the shops we went through we were 'tailed'. It was obviously because of his colour, because when I went there to study, I was never ever tailed like that. My landlady at University cooked 'chunky' hot chipsone night, commenting that she hoped everyone liked them, and stating that it would not be a novelty because I lived up with 'them' and 'they' liked their chips that way(Not the worst example of racism, not malicious, but racism none-the-less). I have seen too many racist (and not neccessarily malicious) comments even from my own family and friends. Indian, Asian, 'Native', all get a raw deal... and the people that I hear these comments from are people that don't know a single one, have never had a meal with one, don't know enough of 'them' to realise they are 'us'. Once again, all I am trying to say is, take the opportunity to make some friends. It's a whole lot harder than protesting (especially in the 'net and cellphone age :P )

As to point 2, I am sorry. This is one of those international differences. Here we just give pensions to old folk, regardless of whether they worked or not, hence my arguement does not make any sense to you (Come visit sometime :) )

On point 3, that is exactly what is being done in this country(NZ). There is the occasional murmur, but really, when you live in the middle of it, you see that what ends up, after government inefficiencies are taken into account, is really not that much at all. Perhaps its' because here the figures don't even make a blip in the national budget.

As I prepare to set down the spade (maybe :P ) I just want to say again, I do agree with you and Pete, the world would be better with no(~) discrimination, and yes, funds could be targetted better, but why sweat the small stuff?

[whyBish]

Maybe there should be more of "Adopting a member of another culture" or mayhap a holiday based on the principal idea of that sort of thing. Instead of a Black History Month, there should be a "Be Adopted By a Black Family Month." Or week. Or whatever. Sort of like a student exchange. Or something. Not sure how to put it.

Embrace a culture that's not your own. It's a sure fire way to bring about a little peace and harmony.

What's the atheist way to say Amen to that? :)

[whyBish]

However, given your faculty with "nutrient media", I would think meaning 6 would be dear to you.

ROFL

[whyBish]

Usually discussions over this lead to heated flame wars and pointless labels being thrust upon the opposition

Well, I think I've thrust a few, but no-one seems to bite ;)

Ah well, I need to go bury my spade now. I've been having some good Mandarin lessons on Friday lunchtimes. Nothing beats being taught by a 'native' speaker, especailly when you can help each other, and enjoy it at the same time :)

P.S. Just got glasses today. Apparently my vision was 20/60! I have been spending the afternoon just looking at the trees in the hills. Life is so amazing at times.