The hypocrisy has reached new levels

[Occhidiangela]

1950's to 1960's is when the various segregationist statutes were repealed and-or ruled unconstitutional, some times at the point of a federal bayonet. (University of Alabama anyone?)

"Segregated" is a state of mind, or a state of neighbor hood.

1970's? Nope

"Legally segregated" ended with the Civil Rights Act and the 24th Ammendment, which were apparently necessary since the 14th and 15th Ammendment were to some extent being ignored.

Informal segregation? Still around in every nation. You should travel to Europe some day for a couple of years, with your eyes open, and consider what you see in re where people live and why.

Ever been to the Rapungi district in Tokyo? "Round eyes" like me were not allowed in some bars back in 1990 and 1991.

Excluding "others" is a very old human habit not confined to America.

Ask a Tutsi, or an Ibo.

Black racists in America are some of the worst hypocrites I have ever encountered, who are unable to look forward.

[Occhidiangela]

This issue needs to be publicized and shouted all over your campus. Posting it here may be cathartic, but solves nothing and moves nothing forward.

Civic action takes energy, but can be worth it.

[Guest]

After all Martin Luther King and 1000s of others did to fight segregation, its sad that blacks would do it to themselves.

[Guest]

Because some other white kids were bad?

This the oldest excuse of all for discriminating against blacks.

[WarLocke]

Wow.

I find myself agreeing with Ghostiger.

Will wonders never cease? ;)

[kandrathe]

[Begin Advocacy For Satan]
Should the NAACP be forced by the courts to accept white people? I believe the courts would examine the "Harms" to both sides and award compensation to the "class" where discrimination caused harm.
[End Advocacy For Satan]

Whew! That hat was burning my head. Now, for my opinion. I agree with you.

If there were a "Blacks Only" public library, that would be an intolerable discrimination. Also, there would be an outrage if outside the lounge in question they had a "blacks only" restroom. So, how can a lounge be allowed to be minority only? I think it would be a tough legal fight and they would be branded by 90% of the campus as racists or KKK. For me, I would leave it be as a distraction from the real purpose of being at the University, to get the degree and then escape to the *real* world. Let the pompous, elist, snobs have their ivory tower. It is just unfortunate that our society values and in many cases requires that experience of wallowing through the bowels of liberalism.

Personally, I wouldn't get worked up about it as there are plenty of other places to study on campus. But, I'm just a rich white boy who never had to work very hard for things and when I knocked on the doors of opportunity they were not shut in my face. Some of that may be due to the color of my skin, but I also had to work to get them. When my ancestors arrived here in Minnesota from Sweden in the early 1900's the harms of slavery in the south were past, but they benefitted from a society that favored the white immigrant over the black american. They benefitted from being able to buy and farm the land that was taken from the native americans (as recent as the mid 1800's). So, am I culpable as the product of that privaledge? If yes, then for how long? How many generations will need to pay the reparations? Maybe they will take it all back and send us whitey's back to Europe. I'm glad I still have relatives and friends in Sweden.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Should the NAACP be forced by the courts to accept white people?

I don't think it is necessary. Check out http://www.naacp.org/part/whymem.shtml : "For more than nine decades, the NAACP has consistently relied on the membership and participation of socially conscious individuals of all races, religions, political affiliations and ideologies."

I realize that you were wearing your DA hat at the time you said that, but I fear that in this case, you were a poor advocate for old Satan :)

--Pete

[ShadowHM]

As for breastfeeding mothers, their privacy is another matter entirely. But if our culture didn't attach some sort of negative stigma to physical differences or actively suckling babies, there would be no such need for this segregation.

(Hey, what can I say, I attend a liberal women's university. ;))

I breast fed all four sons for at least a year apiece.

With son #1, when we first visited the in-laws, I was taken aside and politely told that a place had been set aside for me to nurse the baby - a straight backed chair in the spare bedroom. :blink:

By the time I was nursing my fourth son, my friends (and family) were completely used to the process, so much so that they literally didn't notice it. And yet.....

One very hot summers day we were visiting friends for a barbeque dinner. Son expressed hunger; I pulled back from the table, popped out a breast and commenced feeding him. Soon after, the other female guest got up, stomped into the cottage and finished her meal there. After we left, she confronted our host and demanded why he had not admonished me for flaunting my breast in front of her husband. (Bless his heart, his first dumbfounded response was "Oh, was she nursing the baby?") Apparently I should have covered us with a blanket (in 90 degree heat) or gone inside (the hot stuffy breezeless cottage) to undertake this sordid event.

There are still those who see breast feeding as lewd. And although I would rather educate them, the presence of a 'breast-feeding' lounge where there might also be a baby-changing station (dammit, they do defecate right after nursing most of the time) would be a boon.

Edit: durn forum software! Apparently the colloquial word for defecate is not acceptable. :rolleyes:

[Guest]

.. that we dont do in public. Its common politeness to take some simple steps not to make other people uncomfortable.

Some people surely do go to far and make a big show about not seeing anything, but it is reasonable to go into another room or put a light blanket over your shoulder, especially if men are present, because they often will be uncomfortable.

Of course their could be a time where this isnt an option, but it would be a rare instance.

BTW, its not the fact that youre nurseing, its seeing the booby that bothers most men. Like it or not breasts are very sexual to most men, and looking at them in a clearly nonsexual situation is often uncomfortable.

[Guest]

Post signs at around the campus saying

"If Minority Students would please you the minority study lounge it would be appritiated".

Im guessing that would raise an interesting response. Or you could go sit in the louge and wait till the campus security gaurds carried you out. That would make a pretty cool picture.

At the very least I would post a sign on the door saying "No white students allowed."

[Hammerskjold]

>that we dont do in public. Its common politeness to take some simple steps not to make other people uncomfortable.

I actually agree with you on this, to a degree. I'm not going to urinate in the middle of the dinner table for example.

>BTW, its not the fact that youre nurseing, its seeing the booby that bothers most men. Like it or not breasts are very sexual to most men, and looking at them in a clearly nonsexual situation is often uncomfortable.

And here is where I don't agree. I usually apply the "Nude, Naked, Nekkid" classifications. So for me there's mammary glands, breasts, and #$%&. Mammary glands are what I see when I consult my anatomy books. Breasts are what I draw during my art class. #$%& are what I see if my date reallllllly likes me. Out of those examples, I'd only consider one to be sexual to me.

The fact that some people can\will not understand the context of a human function is their problem.



-H, Whose New Year's resolution is to exercise more to get rid of his mantits.

edit: Heh, apparently the forum filters out T.ango I.carus T.ango S.olar. But mantits are ok. ;)

[Doc]

Hrm.

If a man can go around shirtless, why not women? I am all for fairness. Fairness in race, and gender. If more women walked around bare breasted, hell, I am guessing there would not be a race issue. White, black, red, or purple, all it takes is for a man to see a nice pair of boobs and the reproductive urges set in. Soon, there would not be race. There would just be people. And world peace. Because people would be to busy looking at boobies to think about doing other stuff, like starting wars. So ladies, do your part for world peace and give men something to look at. If more people were shagging there would be less people fighting.

And I know I am right. Look at old Strom Thurmond, arguably one of the worst racists of our modern age, even he could not resist a nice set of knockers, and now his principals have been compromised, and his message of hate has been utterly negated. He came, he saw, he shagged. And it turns out that white and black mixes just fine.

As for breast feeding... Well. Damnit, I am an old aging hippy. If it feels right, do it. If it feels good, do it. If it comes natural, do it. If you have an itch, scratch it. If you have a baby that's hungry, feed it. And if folks have a problem with the natural order, they can go straight to hell for all I care. There is a certain serenity that is generated by a nursing mother that I think is good and wonderful and fills the world around her with strong positive energy. Gogo motherhood. The world could always use more positive energy put into it. So long as it does not violate good common sense, just do it.

[Mithrandir]

This issue needs to be publicized and shouted all over your campus. Posting it here may be cathartic, but solves nothing and moves nothing forward.

Civic action takes energy, but can be worth it.

I post here to get discussions going. I assure you that a message board is not the limit to my concern of this issue ;)

Unfortunately, this is a very bad time. With MLK day just having passed, there's a veritable parade of pro-AA speakers and activists everywhere on campus... and every single one of them seems completely unwilling to provide an oppurtunity for counter-arguments.

[ShadowHM]

.. that we dont do in public. Its common politeness to take some simple steps not to make other people uncomfortable.

Some people surely do go to far and make a big show about not seeing anything, but it is reasonable to go into another room or put a light blanket over your shoulder, especially if men are present, because they often will be uncomfortable.

Of course their could be a time where this isnt an option, but it would be a rare instance.

BTW, its not the fact that youre nurseing, its seeing the booby that bothers most men. Like it or not breasts are very sexual to most men, and looking at them in a clearly nonsexual situation is often uncomfortable.

Piss off !

Feeding a baby should not make you uncomfortable.

If it does, then YOU should be the one to exile yourself, not me.

[Guest]

"Piss off !"


hahah - issues honey?

EDIT: I suppose this is a test of the double standard?
I make a polite argument - and you give me one of the quality responses.

[Archon_Wing]

And I know I am right. Look at old Strom Thurmond, arguably one of the worst racists of our modern age, even he could not resist a nice set of knockers, and now his principals have been compromised, and his message of hate has been utterly negated. He came, he saw, he shagged. And it turns out that white and black mixes just fine.

Hehe, I enjoyed reading that little bit. B)

[Occhidiangela]

They do not necessarily change at the same rate for all people.

Feeding a baby should not make you uncomfortable.

Should? That's a reach. Prudery is a very personal thing. ;)

Norms are not commandmants, but they have a powerful influence on social interaction. Waving my left hand at an Arab perhaps "should not" give offense from my PoV, yet the Arab from his PoV can take offense and even be expected to. Should I tell him to piss off? Hmmmmmmm, why not? :D

Where ya sit determines whatcha see on breast feeding in public. I usually sit where I can see the football game on the boob tube(TV), boobs are just a bonus. :blink:

(*wink* Ghostie gets a B+ for minor trolling: looks like you bit on that bait pretty hard. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt my own self. Want some tequila to wash that worm down, or would you rather a beaker of Mother's Milk -- my name for Guinness! :) )

[jahcs]

ShadowHM Posted: Jan 22 2004, 07:34 PM
There are still those who see breast feeding as lewd.

With son #1, when we first visited the in-laws, I was taken aside and politely told that a place had been set aside for me to nurse the baby - a straight backed chair in the spare  bedroom. 

By the time I was nursing my fourth son, my friends (and family) were completely used to  the process, so much so that they literally didn't notice it. And yet.....

With the first son, they may have been uncomfortable, or wished to provide you privacy if you wanted it. By the fourth child I would bet everyone had become comfortable with breast feeding and your needs with regard to surroundings/privacy.

Ghostiger Posted: Jan 22 2004, 07:56 PM
There are many natural activities...
.. that we dont do in public. Its common politeness to take some simple steps not to make other people uncomfortable.

Respect for other people and their feelings and needs is a very important part of getting along in this world. Things acceptable in one setting may not be acceptable in another.

ShadowHM Posted: Jan 22 2004, 07:34 PM
  Son expressed hunger; I pulled back from the table, popped out a breast and commenced feeding him. Soon after, the other female guest got up, stomped into the cottage and finished her meal there. After we left, she confronted our host and demanded why he had not admonished me for flaunting my breast in front of her husband. (Bless his heart, his first dumbfounded response was "Oh, was she nursing the baby?")

While I may not agree with the other guest's reaction, she may not have been part of the group of friends and family that had become comfortable with breast feeding. In some cultures eating with your hands or burping at the table may be good manners but in other settings they may be inapropriate.

Doc Posted: Jan 22 2004, 08:34 PM
If you have a baby that's hungry, feed it. And if folks have a problem with the natural order, they can go straight to hell for all I care. There is a certain serenity that is generated by a nursing mother that I think is good and wonderful and fills the world around  her with strong positive energy. Gogo motherhood. The world could always use more positive energy put into it. So long as it does not violate good common sense, just do it.

In general I agree with this statement. In the interests of courtesy, asking others at the table if they would mind you feeding your child may be appropriate.

ShadowHM Posted: Jan 22 2004, 09:04 PM
Piss off !

Feeding a baby should not make you uncomfortable.

If it does, then YOU should be the one to exile yourself, not me.

Resorting to a personal attack is not neccesary here. And the option to leave an uncomfortable situation should always be made available. Again, a polite request may be in order.

[Jester]

If that's the case (and I think I largely agree with you), what action can we support? Only action that isn't discriminatory? Or is there some threshold for fair discrimination between races? Obviously such a threshold exists between sexes, or for disabled people, but there are biological differences there.

Are affirmative action programs of any kind allowable? Ethnic scholarships?

It seems that this is an impossible bind: without discriminating (judging who can or can't do or get something on the basis of race), how do we rectify past racism, which by definition was racially discriminatory?

Jester

[ShadowHM]

You are right. I bit. Shame on me. Maybe it will work better than the Crystal at calming me down. :)

Your point about social conventions is well taken. Were I sitting at your dinner table, I would enquire. If you are sitting at my dinner table, you know where the door is and can leave if seeing a baby fed offends you.

In public places, I rather think it is up to the mother. If she feels comfortable with feeding her child in pubic, then she has every right to do so. It is not illegal here to show your breasts in public. :P And those who get uncomfortable around her can go exile themselves. In Texas, I think I would enquire first though. B)