About Hellfire: Fixed

[Kalaroth]

Hey everyone, just installed Hellfire today, and I was reading around on the net and noticed several bugs and problems that people were talking about, and also that Hellfire: Fixed is a solution to most of the problems. So I went and read the read me, and I noticed that it changes of ton of things in the game. My question is, do any of the changes it makes to game unbalance it, and/or make it too easy? I'd like to play Hellfire without all the bugs, but I'd rather just play with them as to play a game that's been dumbed down. That's probably not the case, but I'd rather be sure before I download a mod and spend a bunch of time building a character. Anyone that's played it have any input here?

[LemmingofGlory]

So I went and read the read me, and I noticed that it changes of ton of things in the game. My question is, do any of the changes it makes to game unbalance it, and/or make it too easy?

The following changes are things I'd consider modifications to game difficulty.

Harder Easier

• 
  <>
  
• Players cannot benefit from Bovine Plate or Armor of Gloom's high AC unless they identify the item
  
  <>
  
• Removed character-ruining effects like Black Death's lifesteal and FOS shrines (Whether this is actually easier is debatable as far as I'm concerned. BDs lifesteal isn't so much difficult as it is infuriating.)
  
  <>
  
• Fixed AC bug and sweep damage bug. (Significant!)
  
  <>
  
• No more spellblocking. (Easier in the sense that Monks and S/S Warriors aren't put into blocklock by Succubus mobs, which makes the classes unplayable.)
  
  <>
  [st]
  
  Of course, then there's the wildly eccentric "Wirtistopheles" mod which adds two things for which players have long clamored: the head of Wirt and ... well, nuts, I forgot the other. Maybe someone else remembers.
  
  

  Anyone that's played it have any input here?

  
  Some players have commented adding a Book of Identify was going a bit too far, even if it is qlvl 17. But, well, you can decide to not read it if that's your thing. Other than that, I've not heard much.
  
  -Lemmy

[DeeBye]

Of course, then there's the wildly eccentric "Wirtistopheles" mod which adds two things for which players have long clamored: the head of Wirt and ... well, nuts, I forgot the other. Maybe someone else remembers.

I haven't played Hellfire: Fixed, but maybe Wirt's nuts?

[LemmingofGlory]

I haven't played Hellfire: Fixed, but maybe Wirt's nuts?

They haven't dropped yet.

-Lemmy

[Hammerskjold]

Hey there. Here is my totally unbiased opinion. ;)

>So I went and read the read me, and I noticed that it changes of ton of things in the game. My question is, do any of the changes it makes to game unbalance it, and/or make it too easy?

To add to what Lemming already said, no. I've played plain HF, and HF:F. And most of the HF:F changes either fixed severely retarded technical quirks or bad designs. (Spell blocking pretty much put my LAWs and Monks in a coma. HF:F revived them back to fun and playable status. )

Most of the other enhancements are just conveniences, and does not affect gameplay much. If you ever played regular HF and thought, " I like HF, I just wish some of these brain fart features would be fixed." Then you might like HF:F.

Iirc there are some re-activated monsters in some levels, but I liked this new change. In plain HF, some of the levels just felt too plain. Imo, they were also done very well, and kept the spirit of HF.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Short of adding b.net support, this mod is the closest thing to getting the HF I always wanted. Less retardation, more recreation.

[Kalaroth]

One thing that kinda worries me.. I installed HF:F, rolled my warrior, and went down into the church. In the first level I find a unique ring, a unique rags, and about 4 or 5 regular enchants. That's in level ONE. That seems a little odd to me, don't you think? The ring was no good, and the armor wasn't really all the great, but still... 2 uniques and a handful of enchants in that level???.... The ring was +8 vit (and +resist, to lightning I think), and the falchion/shield I found were pretty good (for that level) as well, though I don't remember their exact stats.

That is another thing that really made me worry about the game balance... So either Hellfire drops more enchants, HF:F makes them drop too easy, or I had one very nice string of good luck, lol.

[Hammerskjold]

>That is another thing that really made me worry about the game balance... So either Hellfire drops more enchants, HF:F makes them drop too easy, or I had one very nice string of good luck, lol.

If you are getting consistent results, say (to pick a number out of a hat) 100 or more runs that yields similar predictable results, I say stop playing the game for a second, and buy a lottery ticket pronto. ;)

Last time I played however, I didn't really notice anything like a consistently higher or better drops than usual. So at this point it's probably a safer bet to say you were fairly lucky.

[Kalaroth]

The funny thing is, I bought a lottery ticket today. You never know, maybe I'll win. :D

I'll go back and do a few more runs of level one and see if get results like that. You're probably right, was probably just getting really lucky. But when you're already kinda worried then start having THAT kind of luck, can't help but think the worst. ^_^ I just don't want to play an easy game. I enjoy games like Diablo for the challenge of it all, working hard to reach the top, you know?

Well, gonna go back and give it another whirl I guess.

[Kalaroth]

I only had to run the level once more to think there is definitely something fishy going on here.

I found, in level one:
1 Unique -
The Defender (A sabre)
6 Enchants -
Iron Dagger
White Dagger Of Might
White Cape
Blue Dagger
Blue Staff Of Inferno
Blue Band Of The Jaguar

Not a single non-enchanted piece of equipment dropped off a creature. Everything dropped was magic. The only thing that wasn't magic was a falchion that I found laying on the floor in a small room, but that wasn't a monster drop of course, just placed randomly when the dungeon was generated.

Pretty much convinced at this point that it's more than just luck. :blink:

Edit: Oh, and blacksmith's oils. Lots and lots of blacksmith's oils.

[Kalaroth]

This... Is ridiculous.

Run 2: By the time I had killed MAYBE 20 creatures, I have 5 enchants, one of which was unique (that damn Defender blade again). 3 small rooms later, my inventory was full, all enchanted items.

Run 3: Second creature I killed dropped a unique short bow. Third creature dropped a unique short sword. I immediately exited the game. :blink:

Edit: I'm done, lol.. I think it's apparent that this mod turns the game into an enchant fest.

[Hammerskjold]

>I just don't want to play an easy game. I enjoy games like Diablo for the challenge of it all, working hard to reach the top, you know?

In some ways, HF was harder than HF:F. But not necessarily more challenging. That sounds like doubletalk, so let me explain. The things that made it harder are not necessarily well designed. Spell blocking may look good on paper, but in practice it made it annoying at best, and crippled some classes and builds, at worst.

And in other ways, HF was a lot easier than HF:F, for the same above reasons. With the AC wrap around bug, my Warrior could use any weapons and connect with high AC monsters. A sword of Haste is just as good as a KsoH in Nightmare - Hell\Hell.

Some of the changes to Unique weapons are mostly boosted to 'useable' quality. If we're going by clvl 35+ and up is high level for a character, then most would fall somewhere around mid-level weapons.

Good luck on the lottery and hope you have fun with the mod.

(Just to show how unbiased my opinions are. ;) HF:F and HF: The Dark basically made my Hellfire purchase very worthwhile. Ymmv.)

edited: If I read you right, you haven't found much white (non magic\unique) items yet? If this continues, that is weird. I doubt the creators of this mod wanted a non-stop treasure fest. When I have some spare time I'll create a new Warrior to see if he has your luck.

[Selby]

Edit: I'm done, lol.. I think it's apparent that this mod turns the game into an enchant fest.

I don't think Lemming modified the item generation routines intentionally. I'd download the .exe and check to see if he did make a mistake somewhere that causes magical items to always be dropped but I don't have the time to do so right now.

So... how many runs did you do before deciding that Lemming obviously made the game an enchange fest?

[Kalaroth]

Well for one, I do think that something in the mod makes enchants easier to find, but I don't think that it was done on purpose. I would assume not anyway. It's just that I don't find any "white" items. Any time any creature drops an equipable item, it's enchanted. EVERY time. The only white items come from chests or are just already laying on the ground. I went back into regular Diablo, and regular HF, and did the first level two or three times in each of them... Things seemed normal. Loaded HF:F back up, and the enchants started dropping like mad again. I don't get it. :unsure:

[Selby]

Well, the version on this site that I just downloaded 5 minutes ago is dated July 2003. If this was a problem I figure someone would have mentioned it by now. Then I looked at the data files and I don't see anything in the "special item drop" bits for the monsters. I really don't know what to tell you =)

[LemmingofGlory]

Kalaroth:
That is another thing that really made me worry about the game balance... So either Hellfire drops more enchants, HF:F makes them drop too easy, or I had one very nice string of good luck, lol.

Was the % chance to drop magical/unique items modified by HF:F? No. And, as Selby said, the monster bits that force "drop magic item" weren't modified.

So, what could possibly be causing an increased number of magical items? Well, take a look at what you've found. Lots of rings? Right. All three rings are qlvl 1 now. That means mlvl 1 monsters can drop them, and if a ring is dropped it is always magical. Thus, an increase in the number of low level rings is to be expected. Therefore, when counting "blue" items discount these.

In the first level I find a unique ring, a unique rags, ...&nbsp; the armor wasn't really all the great

Somebody'd better advise you about saying such things.

2 uniques and a handful of enchants in that level???

In the quick game I test-played, I found 7 white items, 2 blue ones, and two rings. No uniques. Dlvl 2: 4 white items, 1 unique (boss drop), 1 blue item, 2 rings; Butcher wasn't killed. Compare to vanilla HF: (dlvl 1) 11 whites, 1 blue; (dlvl 2) 17 whites, 1 unique (boss drop), 2 blues (one was boss drop).

Edit: I'm done, lol.. I think it's apparent that this mod turns the game into an enchant fest.

Not from the code's perspective.

-Lemmy

[Hammerskjold]

>The only white items come from chests or are just already laying on the ground. I went back into regular Diablo, and regular HF, and did the first level two or three times in each of them... Things seemed normal. Loaded HF:F back up, and the enchants started dropping like mad again. I don't get it.

Ok, the following isn't a scientifically procedure done by a qualified scientician. I started a Multiplayer game of HF:F, ver. 1.21. I created a new Warrior, and did a complete run through of level 1, 3 times. Just to see if I can get the luck you were describing. 3 times is barely a stat, but right now I just want to see if anything seems amiss.

So far the most frequent drops I get are:

- Money (most common)
- White items
- Scrolls
- Potions
- Blue items

At best I got 3-4 magic items on one complete run from level 1. This doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary from my previous runs (not counting this one). So your magic item drop frequency does sound weird. Unfortunately I don't have the technical knowledge to help you out. As far as I know (on my computer at least) the drops seems ok.

I'll check again when time permits, to see if my young(er) Warrior can get the luck you're describing.

[Selby]

If you really want to get technical, several people need to freeze their clocks to the same time and run through the game several times on several computers. That will let us find out if Lemming really did modify anything as it has been claimed (which I doubt ;-) ).

[aaa]

My advice is...

Play PAST the first level.

Really its just that simple. Part of the problem is Lemming fixed the stupid ring problem, which now makes them drop much much much earlier in the game (still have to wait forever for a WEARABLE amulet, but cheap low quality rings drop like flies).

But yeah, once you get to the catacombs or whatnot everything should seem up to par.
Also, have you been playing DII a lot lately? If you have then that may account for the "enchant fest" you seem to be experiancing. DI and DII's drop rates for stuff are COMPLETELY different.

Is your system clock set to the current date/year?

Pretty much just give the game a chance. Most of the stuff you say has been dropping is very low quality anyway, not much better than whites to begin with. Come on, who here has actually used the Defender? Let alone had a need for two?

But as for throwing out that set of unique rags........for shame.



If you life steal from a Black Death shouldn't you be losing life?

[LemmingofGlory]

Let's talk "What else should get fixed?"

KARIK'S RING / OVERLORD'S HELM : Replaced -MAG attribute with -MANA to improve usability. Previously, Barbarian needed +MAG items to use either of these. That was stupid. Very, very stupid.

GIANT'S KNUCKLE (+60 STR, -30 DEX, uni pic) is a concern from a usability standpoint. -30 DEX = -15% ToHit and a severe blow to blocking. So, I ask (1) would you ever use this? and (2) if not, what curse would suitably offset the large str bonus?

GOLEM : Can give him resists. Yes/no?

CRIMSON: This affix name exists twice. One of the affix names is now "Burgundy." Yay for variety.

UNDOCUMENTED ITEM : I replaced Gladiator's Ring with "Flayed Wirthide," a qlvl 20 unique Robe with the following statistics: -30 DEX, Peril, +100 HPs, +250% AC, Indestructible, Unique Picture. This exists in the current release of HFF. You may have found it. It's bizarre. I once found it from Wirtistopheles himself -- apropos!

AMULET OF WARDING : This item is horrible! Qlvl 20 grants you perfect obsidian, but removes 100 life points. Now, characters that need 40% resistance are low level characters, and they surely don't have the HPs to spare. Rogues, Bards, and Monks certainly not. Warriors would be dropped to some ungodly lowdigit number. Barbarian might survive it, but his natural resistance ensures he'd never be so desperate for resists he'd resort to this item. And on a Mage? Instant lich. WHO designed this thing?!

Concept for a new Amulet of Warding : Mana steal amulet with severe defense penalties. 5% mana steal, -25% to -45% resist all, -25 dex, unique picture. This item finally furnishes the Monk with mana steal, and hasted mana steal for him, Warrior, or Barb. My only concern is whether the allure of mana steal is so great this would become a staple item.

Code:

NAME              DLVL    NEW.DLVL   SIZE   NEW.SIZE
Satyr Lord        C1-C2   C1-C3        ----   ----
Devil Kin Brute  C1-C2   C1-C3
Gravedigger     C1-C1   C1-C2       ----   ----
Firebat             C1-C2   -----           550    800
Skullwing         C1-C2    C1-C3       1740   800
Lich                  C1-C2   C1-C3        ----   ----
Crypt Demon    C2-C3   C1-C4        ----   ----
Hellbat             C3-C4   C2-C4        ----   ----
Bone Demon    C3-C4   C2-C4        1740   800
Arch Lich          C3-C4   C2-C4        ----   ----
Biclops             C3-C4   C1-C4        ----   ----
Flesh Thing      C3-C4   C2-C4        ----   ----
Reaper            C3-C4   C2-C4        ----   ----

(This stuff is formatted much nicer in my text file. Grr.)

Most monsters gained at least one extra possible dlvl in their appearance range. This adds more possible monster mixes, though not many more. I personally think it makes things at little more interesting. The seed sizes were modified for similar reasons: Bat size was much too small, and Skullwing/Bone Demon size was unreasonably big! This should even things out a bit.

Additionally, damages for Gravedigger (2-12) and Flesh Thing (12-18) are far too low for their area. I'm giving these a bump. (Annoying Flesh Thing sound effect has been removed as well.)

TABLE : Monster Breakup

Code:

AREA     # of Different Monsters*  # of Distinct Types**
Church   34                                   07
Cats      34                                   13
Caves   31                                   12
Hell       22                                   07
Hive      12                                   10
Crypt    14                                   12

*Special boss types (e.g. Butcher) not counted.
**Monsters using the same graphic are of a distinct type. Alternate weaponry still counts as one type.

I made up this table because I was pondering the redundancy of the dungeon. Namely, how many monsters the each area has, and what quantity of those monsters are simply repetitions of other base types (e.g. Fallens and Carvers). Interestingly, while Hive and Crypt have comparatively fewer monsters in total, most of the monster types found therein are not simply repetitions of other critters. Even so, from a gameplay standpoint I find the areas somewhat lacking in variety.

With respect to the Crypt, I'm open to suggestions about improving the monster mixes. There are 16 unused monster slots available, which means I can make up to 16 new monsters without overwriting old ones. So, of course, the question is (1) Should I? and (2) If you think so, what would you like to see? It could be something very simple, like a second type of Biclops, Crypt Demon, whatever; or it could be something with a bit more freshness, like a creature that uses Leoric or Butcher's animations; or more Knights, Snakes, magical attackers; "Shredded" type would be very Crypt-appropriate; whatever.

HIVE CHANGES
I'm removing Hork Spawn, because they're just about as worthless as any monster can get. If pumpkins with teeth weren't crappy monsters as it were, their related soundset bloody sucks. They even /sound/ like pumpkins when you smash 'em. Ugh. CRAP monster. Just CRAP.

I quite hate the Hive. I don't even play it in HF:F. Would anyone like to see it /completely/ revamped? Namely, I think it would benefit if it were made at least as challenging as Hell. A second "Caves"-level difficulty area has never made sense to me. So, options abound here. The monsters could be made more buff individually to be on par with Hell. I'd like that, myself.

Alternatively, as I suggested for Crypt above, Hive could gain a few new monsters -- or replace old, crappy ones. In particular, I very much dislike Stingers and Venom Tails. I consider them about as worthwhile as Hork Spawn. They're not gothic. (But neither is the Hive, really. Hm...)

VISUAL CHANGES :
I'm not satisfied with Tomb Rat's graphic. It's too toonish. Would anyone else prefer Scavenger or Spitter graphics here?

AFFIXES :
-ToHit% affixes are broken. They cause a rollover to values in the range of 65535. In lieu of leaving this be, I think this is a prime opportunity to throw in some fun cursed affixes. BNMs wouldn't suffer from -ToHit affixes, and BNR/Ws won't even use the things, so there's no point in fixing it. Similarly, Fragility and Brittleness don't hinder BNs at all. Thus:

Code:

OLD
pos name                     range    qlvl  effect
(Prefix)
 0 Tin                           6- 10      3    -% To Hit
 1 Brass                       1-  5       1    -% To Hit
24 Clumsy                    50- 75    5    -% To Hit, -% damage done
25 Dull                         25- 45     1    -% To Hit, -% damage done
(Suffix)
58 fragility                   100-100   3   -% durability (decreased durability)
59 brittleness              26- 75      1    -% durability (decreased durability)

NEW
pos name                       range   qlvl    effect
(Prefix)
 0 BNM's                        30-100   3     - mana
 1 [NoNameYet]            30- 30    1     - mana
24 [NoNameYet]             0-  0     5    constantly lose life
25 Dull                          25- 45    1    - magic
(Suffix)
58 amnesia                    -2- -2    3     +/- spell levels
59 stunlock                    50- 50   1    move mana to life

The range on the -Magic and -Mana equipment is extreme, so speak up if it bothers you.

Next, ol' Sierra added a few new affixes for us. Yes, yes, they did. Nobody uses them. No, no, they don't. Because qlvl 1 affixes can't combine with ANYTHING useful! So, here's what I was thinking:

Code:

OLD
pos name                      range   qlvl    effect
(Suffix)
 3 gore                         9- 12     25    + damage done
 4 carnage                   13- 16   35    + damage done


NEW
pos name                          range  qlvl   effect
(Suffix)
 3 devastation                   1-  1   25    5% chance of doing *3 damage
 4 devastation                   1-  1   35    5% chance of doing *3 damage

(Who uses Gore and Carnage anyway?)

I considered "of the Ages" effect from "Indestructible" to "Fastblock." For anti-morph purposes, qlvl and base type occurence would not change. (So, it'd still be qlvl 25 and appear on armor, helm, shields, weapons, and staves.) Now, this is a /weird/ change, but I'd justify it on the following grounds: it'd make the enchantment useful to /somebody/, namely the Rogue. She'd no longer be stuck using SS or HD for fastblock, which opens up some interesting potential equipment setups.

Thoughts do me no good in your head. Comment!

-Lemmy

[aaa]

>KARIK'S RING / OVERLORD'S HELM : Replaced -MAG attribute with -MANA to improve usability. Previously, >Barbarian needed +MAG items to use either of these. That was stupid. Very, very stupid.

No not stupid, Sierra. Slight but notable difference

>GIANT'S KNUCKLE (+60 STR, -30 DEX, uni pic) is a concern from a usability standpoint. -30 DEX = -15% >ToHit and a severe blow to blocking. So, I ask (1) would you ever use this? and (2) if not, what curse >would suitably offset the large str bonus?

Hmm, the bonus part is STR, STR gives: +damage, +Item wearability. +damage is offset by the lack of TO HIT ANYTHING. But the wearability is greatly increased. Only useful chars would be Bow Rogue (has to-hit a plenty, and has a net gain of 30 in damage calc) and Tank Sorcerer (this one item alone is all the STR boost he needs for Full Plate). Hmm...

The other rings are:
Karik's +60 Vit -30 Mag
Mercurial +60 Dex -30 Str
Xorine's +60 Mag -30 Str

All four together have a net gain of +60 Vit +30 Mag and +30 Dex. It's always bugged me that none of the rings are -Vit. Maybe make Giants -30 Vit and change Xorine's to -30 Dex
Then there would be
+Str -Vit ring: Boosted Offense, lesser survivability.

+Vit - Mag ring: But as per change above (overlords helm). Sor would lose 60 mana from -30mag, warrior would lose 30 mana from -30 mag, so split the differance, Karik's ring would be +60 vit, -45 Mana, still good for warrior types.

+Dex -Str ring: Better to-hit and block, reduced damage done, fair trade off.

+Mag -Dex ring: Casters have no (real) need for Dex anyway, That and it will probably only be reading glasses anyway.

>GOLEM : Can give him resists. Yes/no?

Hmmm... would greatly increase survivability in Hell/Hell. But would make nigh invulnerable in Normal...
Debatable.

>CRIMSON: This affix name exists twice. One of the affix names is now "Burgundy." Yay for variety.

Go Burgundy!

>AMULET OF WARDING : This item is horrible! Qlvl 20 grants you perfect obsidian, but removes 100 life >points.
>Concept for a new Amulet of Warding : Mana steal amulet with severe defense penalties. 5% mana steal, ->?25% to -45% resist all, -25 dex, unique picture. This item finally furnishes the Monk with mana steal, and >hasted mana steal for him, Warrior, or Barb. My only concern is whether the allure of mana steal is so >great this would become a staple item.

Hmm "Warding" implies "boosts defenses" so by name is should have some +resist... Mana steal good idea, maybe reduce it to 3% and make it more of a "positive" item, lots of little things, but nothing major.


Signed,
The Grarrrg