Diablo II vs World of Warcraft

[--Pete]

Hi,

Of course, the big difference between a group game (like D2) and a MMOG is that you can't keep the griefers and bad players out of "your game" because there is no "your game" in a MMOG. And since people not in your group can (and thus will) mess you up, either on purpose or by accident, ultimately the only solution is to accept it or quit.

However, I would like to go on record that almost every person I've met in WoW so far has been at least a competent player and pretty much a "good" person. Because of my times and style of play (turtles have been known to give me a head start), I usually play solo with the occasional pick up group to go after bosses, etc. I haven't experienced any form of griefing that seemed intentional.

So, if Blizzard does keep an eye on things, the game when shipped may just be well worth playing from that point of view.

As always, "we'll see". ;)

--Pete

[Bolty]

Could you please elaborate on the issue of "ninjalooting"?

Ninja Loot (verb): the act of playing tricks on your partymates to steal the top loot, typically from a boss.

How it works: there are multiple ways to "Ninja Loot."

• Pick up a 'Bind on Pickup' item even though you have no use for it whatsoever. Do this and you will quickly have a hard time getting a group as your reputation as a total you-know-what-hole spreads.
  <>
  
• Be the party leader. Just before the big boss dies, switch the party loot method to "Master Loot." This makes it so the party leader is the only one who gets to loot a corpse. Take the loot, say "thank you" to the people you've been partying with for the last 1-3 hours, and take off.
  <>
  
• Loot something that the party had agreed to "roll" on, "roll" meaning using the command "/random 100" to generate a random number, with highest roll of the "dice" winning the loot. This is what is typically done for the big loots, especially if nobody in the party needs the item.
  <>
  
• In a Round-Robin loot scheme (the most common), arrange it so that you get to have the boss loot by ensuring that the boss' death will be your turn to loot the corpse. Then take everything and claim (incorrectly) that it was your right to loot it because it was your turn. Only morons use this argument.<>
  [st]
  Some have suggested that there be some mechanism to prevent a party leader from switching to Master Loot instantly, but in the end you simply have to trust your party leader.
  
  -Bolty

[Guest]

In lower levels and especially in beta with people rerolling a lot of alts and without established guilds the "society" aspect of morps doesnt kick in.

It will at high levels. I suspect server sizes in WoW wont be much bigger than DAoC. In DAoC you find that a server with 3000 people playing at peak time is a pretty small society.

People may scam at low levels, but at high levels its not worth the trouble. Sure a few people will make a point of being famous for acting like an ass, but they will be noted and avoided.

-Guilds in particular have a big impact. Guild leaders dont like scammers giving the guild a bad name ussually. If they dont mind then the guild becomes a pariah.

-Server boards help. Its not like the tattle tale board. Instead you have a will have board where people know each other well, and when someone is scammed they shared it pretty quickly.


Its not valid to compare to D2. In D2 I could get to level 80 in 4 real life days, so a name meant nothing, so a scammer can start over fast. Also the community was actually much larger than the community on 1 server, you had ~half of all US players with you in east or west.

Over all all I wouldnt worry about it, although Im sure Blizz can make a few changes to help stop scammers.

[lemekim]

I don't see the difference still in reputation argument, sorry. Whats stopping a scammer from creating low level alts for scams? You cannot trace them to the other person, you can mail items between each other, and you can even sell items anonymously via auction. Hell, just yesterday I've been witness to a scam, where a person sold already opened and looted lockboxes as locked (since you cannot tell from the auction display), and you did not even know who sold them. Whenever there is a loophole, people will scam, one way or another.

Bad publicity will not stop some guilds - for you assumed that all guildmasters are trying to be best guild they can be, cleanest place on the block, yessir. Some guilds like shady reputation, and even Blizzard cannot stop that. To me, the difference between the two doesn't seem to be reputation, but rather what Pete said:

"Of course, the big difference between a group game (like D2) and a MMOG is that you can't keep the griefers and bad players out of "your game" because there is no "your game" in a MMOG. And since people not in your group can (and thus will) mess you up, either on purpose or by accident, ultimately the only solution is to accept it or quit."

In Diablo, you are in control of the game, but in WoW you are just part of the world.

[NuurAbSaal]

me want Beta

[Guest]

Ya anyone could make a low lvl scammer. But no one trusts an unknown low lvl with anything valuable.

Of course bad publicity wont stop some guilds - but those guilds will have bad names so people avoid them.

I think the real problem is you guys havent actually played a MMORP. You havent seen the society that develops. Its a lot like real life. Little kids can cheat all they want but they cant really hurt anyone because no one trucsts them any ways. Adults can cheat too, but everyone catches on fast and they are shunned.

Unlike real life you cant move to a new town after you rip everyone off in a MMORP, unless you are willing start over again as a little kid and spend all the time growing uo again.

I guess what annoys me is you guys are acting like this is a big problem, when in practice it becomes a nonissue once the servers are 3 or 4 months old.

[Jini]

It was interesting on the Amazon Basin forums as well when this issue was brought up. The folks with little to no MMOG experience had the same reaction while all the folks who had played one or more MMOGs all assured them that reputation does indeed matter a great bit.

I imagine that both of those institutions need little advice as to reputation but it never hurts to reinforce a critical point.

I'll restate, the most important thing to remember going from D2 to WoW will be the only thing you really have in game is your reputation.

[lemekim]

I never said reputation did not matter; but in Diablo your reputation as a player matters as well. The Diablo servers as a whole are a community, and you cannot simply move from them somewhere else - there is nowhere to go. People gain reputation for various things, such as being a good trader or a PKer in Hardcore games, or scammer. Going from singleplayer Diablo might show a big difference in value of reputation, but I think if you regularly dealt with the whole Diablo community, you are well prepared in that aspect.

[Cryptic]

The quick solution would be to only trade with members of the Lurker Lounge and/or Amazon Basin guild(s). The few rotten apples that might crop up would be summarily dealt with.

[Guest]

Your reputation may have mattered to you a great deal(and thats cool.)
But your reputation in D2 had almost no effect on your ability to succeed as far as leveling and finding gear went.

There are simply too many people to keep track of and character life is too short for most players for your bad deeds to catch up with you in the genneral Diiablo2 community.

It matters hugely in a MMORP.

I really think you are just guessing about what a MMORP is like and have never really played one based on what you have said.

[lemekim]

I am playing WoW right now - in fact I got to 50 with one char and I have two other chars, one at 42 and one at 37, and many lower level ones. I don't know if it's something wrong with WoW, or it's because this is Beta, but I don't see the reputation difference between Diablo 2 and WoW that you speak of. We are not talking here about going from D2 to a MMORPG, but rather from D2 to WoW, so lets stay on track. The difference? I know that certain games (SWG for one afaik) have even the gameplay revolving around the actions of the player (and thus in part his reputation). But I have seen little in the way of reputation affecting anything in WoW.

A lot of your gear can come from quests/drops/trading. You can EASILY just solo the entire game, at least if you are alliance. As for the instances and their wonderful drops, if you are a warrior or a priest, you WILL get asked to do some instance runs, even if you messed up several times before. If you are a Warlock, you probably will not, no matter how good you are. Reputation just doesn't "hugely" matter much right now, it has almost no influence on your leveling and gear finding. I don't see how you can make a comparison of D2 to WoW if you haven't actually played WoW.

[Guest]

After a month or two on a normal server in a live game when high level characters become common, an order will evolve(maybe sooner).

MMORPs are not a short term game. The key to the society in a MMORP working is that people intend to be there a long time. Thats just not the case in any beta.

I notice this sight has a real shortage of people who are in beta and have played MMORPs before. The fears espoused here I never hear from old MMORP players in beta on other sites.

[lemekim]

Perhaps once the game goes live then we can see. Will there be an order? What kind of order? It depends on the game content, server sizes, etc that Blizzard will put in. Will reputation matter little as it does in Beta? Even though people have been playing Beta for a while now (5 month?). Or will it matter a lot? I don't know. I don't think anyone can tell unless they see what exactly the developers have in the making.

[Jim]

After a month or two on a normal server in a live game when high level characters become common, an order will evolve(maybe sooner).

MMORPs are not a short term game. The key to the society in a MMORP working is that people intend to be there a long time. Thats just not the case in any beta.

I notice this sight has a real shortage of people who are in beta and have played MMORPs before. The fears espoused here I never hear from old MMORP players in beta on other sites.

Hi,

Ghostiger makes 3 very fine points. All to true, a MMORPG is a long term commitment. This is a Diablo forum most players here including myself are still playing Diablo1/Hellfire [The Dark mod] for the past 7 years, now that is long term. :D

I've been playing Asherons Call 1, on and off for 5 years ...off to try other MMORPG games like, 9 months in EQ, 6 months in DAoC & also to play D2 & Dungeon Siege. :o

Now as for Reputation, it is needless to say it's a "MUST" to have a good REP. You will love entering a Game and your Text window fills with Offers to join a Group either in your Guild or just friends in need of your Characters skill. That is the Greatest feeling in the World :P

If you rather Solo 100% in a game then a MMO game is not for you. After you get a feel for the game you will want to join a Guild/Clan this is where "Order" evolves within the game & this requires a great deal of thought, there are Good [active] & Bad [inactive] Guilds. This has nothing to with Realm vs Realm, it's just for Friendship & Fun :o

Some guilds are very aggro about recruitment, these guilds just want big numbers & are not looking for Quality players. Beware there is a lot of Politicing going on in some guilds. :ph34r:

Welcome to EpiK

[Bolty]

Beware there is a lot of Politicing going on in some guilds.&nbsp; :ph34r:

This is why in the final version, if I buy it, I will not be running any LL guilds. It will be up to you guys to decide whether to start one and who gets to be in it (remember that a single bad player can wreck the reputation of the whole group!). I think some people are expecting me to start an LL game in retail, simply because I happen to be running the beta ones on the beta server.

-Bolty

[Jim]

This is why in the final version, if I buy it, I will not be running any LL guilds.&nbsp; It will be up to you guys to decide whether to start one and who gets to be in it (remember that a single bad player can wreck the reputation of the whole group!).&nbsp; I think some people are expecting me to start an LL game in retail, simply because I happen to be running the beta ones on the beta server.

-Bolty

Hi

Sorry to here that, LL is more than just a forum to me, it is a place where Honor is placed at the Top of each players Creed. This is a "Legit Players" hangout. That is why I joined Epik in Asherons Call & Angles of Hell gaming guild in Diablo:

Epik Honor Code

(This Code is not intended to be all-inclusive. It should, however, prove to be guidance enough for all who would call themselves EpiK. Looking for "grey-areas" or "loopholes" in this code is in itself a violation.)

I. EpiK members will be honest in word and deed. Lying and/or cheating on trades are examples of unacceptable actions.

II. Members will recognize and honor lines which their fellow players have started at any spawn location.


In the event that there is a line in place that is already being disregarded by another player, honoring the line would allow for Free-For-All tactics being used as long as the loot was then distributed fairly amongst those in the line.

III. Members will follow the game code of conduct, and are expected to go beyond it.

Specifically, members will not use vulgar or obscene language in open chat or when trying to resolve issues with non-clan members in-game. Whenever you're tempted, remember that invisible game sentinels could be watching at any time.

IV. Disputes or questions of honor will be handled in the following manner, with in-game communication being preferred over board posts:

A. First, the first common patron in the chain of the individual(s) involved will be approached to resolve the issue.

B. The clan sentinel is the next person who should be consulted to resolve the issue.

C. If neither of the above options are available, or are unacceptable for some reason, a message will be posted to the "Arbitration" board.


V. PK Guidelines are posted on the PK Rules page.
As an EpiK PK, you are required to maintain the spirit of the clan. Honor is still the name of the game.

VI. Macros - Macroing as a general rule is frowned upon. However we realize that macroing is here to stay and in many cases are used to benefit the community as a whole. For that reason, here is EpiK's position on Macros:


A. Trade Macros - Trade macros are acceptable in any form.
B. Magic Macros - Magic Macros are acceptable in low-traffic areas. Please do not go into meeting halls and run a macro all night long, as it is irritating to the people who are there.

C. Combat Macros - Combat macros are not acceptable, period.


VII. Final Resolution - All disciplinary decisions will be made by majority vote of the council, and will be promply executed. Failure of a patron to comply with council decision will result in further disciplinary action by the council.
Actions that can be considered by the council include:

&nbsp;&nbsp; 1. Private reprimand.
&nbsp;&nbsp; 2. Public reprimand.
&nbsp;&nbsp; 3. Public repentence by the "convicted."
&nbsp;&nbsp; 4. Restriction from private clan areas or from quest participation for an agreed upon time.
&nbsp;&nbsp; 5. In-game fines in pyreals and/or property.
&nbsp;&nbsp; 6. Expulsion from the clan.

http://www.epikac.net/achonor.html

Angles of Hell Honor Code

FUN. We Have Fun! We seek to increase the fun of other players.

RESPECT. We have and show respect to all other gamers, in and out of the guild. We treat others as we expect to be treated. We are polite.

FAIRNESS. We promote fairness in your dealings with others. We don't "CHEAT" or use unfair methods to gain advantage over other gamers.

MATURITY. We remember our organization is "mixed company", young and old, male and female; we behave accordingly. We are tolerant of those who sometimes forget to do so.

INTEGRITY. Some games require us to self-police to maintain game integrity. We are careful to maintain our protected areas. We are honest. We don't take what isn't ours.

TEAMWORK. Our group was founded to promote "cooperative" play, where different abilities among players create a stronger whole. To us, a well-functioning team is the funnest play of all.

Our additional rules for those who Need Them Spelled Out:

Treat the principles as "general rules", applying to games, message boards, and chatting.

Don't give our passwords out where non-members can see them.
Maturity refers to offensive or inappropriate language or conversations.
In general, we expect our members to continue to maintain our principles outside of our group. Outside behavior still reflects upon the honor of our guild.

Diablo2 Specific Game Guidelines :

[Guest]

Indications are that server size will be in line with other games however.

[Artega]

This is why in the final version, if I buy it, I will not be running any LL guilds.&nbsp; It will be up to you guys to decide whether to start one and who gets to be in it (remember that a single bad player can wreck the reputation of the whole group!).&nbsp; I think some people are expecting me to start an LL game in retail, simply because I happen to be running the beta ones on the beta server.

-Bolty

While I was looking forward to the possibility of a LurkerLounge guild in WoW, that is a very wise policy - I've read some archived threads over at the AB and seen what forum politics can do :(

[Saxywoo]

However, I would like to go on record that almost every person I've met in WoW so far has been at least a competent player and pretty much a "good" person. Because of my times and style of play (turtles have been known to give me a head start), I usually play solo with the occasional pick up group to go after bosses, etc. I haven't experienced any form of griefing that seemed intentional.

Hail,

I think that what you said there is relative. When I play with people, I generally go in thinking "okay, they probably suck and don't know what they are doing." I do this because if I am right, I'm not suprised when we have 4-5 monsters beating on us at one time, and am able to react accordingly. If I am wrong, we end up powering through whatever mobs we encounter. And I have been pleasantly surprised.

There have been cases where I've been 110% correct (the +10% bonus being that I was right). And there have been other cases, like when I've played with Lurkers (shameless plug for those of you that dare to party with me), have been good matches, and we clean up.

For instance, there was a quest in Westfall that the group was just pitiful. They people would just come and go, not say a word when doing so, and the leader of the party had the looting to "Free-for-all." There were two mages, a warrior, a rogue, and a paladin (me). The warrior and the rogue would loot the body before the mages even got close enough to loot. So a mage got fed up with it and left. *BLIP* Gone. Then a priest joined in. Same thing happened. But when the mage or the priest drew aggro, neither the warrior or the rouge did anything about it. Not even when there were 3 guys pounding on the priest. I was able to get them off of the priest, so I was the one taking the beating, and the priest nor mage, nor warrior, nor rogue lifted a finger to help me out. No heals, no assists. Fortunately, I was about 2-3 levels above the mob, so I made it through somewhat intact. However, I wasn't old enough to just take the quest solo, because there was too many monsters in close proximity to each other, and they were humanoids, so in pulling one, you would have at least 1-2 friends to help out. And, there weren't any Lurkers around or my "age" at the time.

Now there are the times when I'll run into someone that way too young to be in an area, and I will end up helping them out, generally with casting Holy Light once or twice, finishing off the monster that put them in that state to begin with, and then escort them back to a safer area, maybe help them out with one or two of thier quests. From what I've seen, it generally a newbie that got a little impatient and started exploring or got lost.

As far as being trained, there have been a couple of cases where it's been someone that suddenly realized that they were in way over thier head, and run with total abandon. There's been those types that will run into a mine or close proximity, highly populated area way ahead of everyone else, and while they seem to have drawn the aggro of everything from within the mine. And there's generally a healer, who then draws all that aggro. Thus, if not coming pretty close to, dooming that party member, no matter what anyone does. And I've noticed that it's been warriors and rogues that are the ones that will tend to do it. Could be a newbie, but I wouldn't really think of a level 15-17 character as a newbie anymore. They should know better by now. Now I can understand a mage or a priest hauling past me with a train. It's a heck of a lot easier for them to draw aggro.

If I remember correctly, Pete, you have a few pretty high level characters, so I would assume that you know quite a few people that actually know what they are doing when they play, and then those people probably know other people and so on. But you seem to have found a little niche tucked in with the people that know what they are doing, and how to play in a group setting, or just in an MMORPG.


SUGGESTION:

Perhaps what might also be good is for us to compile some sort of list of things to look out for so that upon release, newbies can look at, and then use that as a guideline to figure out if they are partied with an amateur, or somene who actually knows what they are doing. When WoW finally does make it to release, I expect there to be a flood of people that join in, Some will get lucky and level up fast, some will actually take the time and learn the abilities and limitations of the character that they have chosen, and thus become the better players out there, who would be the ones that anyone would want to party with.

Just a few of my experiences and thoughts.... nothing more.... possibly a whole lot less....

SaxyCorp

[Guest]

From a Q and A session.

"The concurrency rate is currently planned to be around 2000-2500 players at peak times. There won't be a maximum amount of players that are allowed to "live" on a server, but this is the amount of characters we expect to actually be in the world at any given time."


That actually is a smaller server size than the most popular servers on DAoC.