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Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Bolty - 08-05-2004
I'd like to start a thread that simply deals with how a player who is used to Diablo II can adapt their playstyle to World of Warcraft (and most MMORPGs in general). It's truly a different beast, playing WoW. If you're a D2 player, you'll find yourself frustrated early on trying to adapt to a very different game. I'm going to start a running tally of things a newbie to WoW would need to keep in mind - please add to it with your thoughts! We should keep this thread bumped if new phases let more Lurkers into the beta. Keep things general - specifics won't help someone new to the game until they get the hang of it.
1) Diablo II is about frenetic, fast-pased you-against-the-hordes action. WoW doesn't work this way. Battle in WoW is conducted on a much smaller scale; this scale seems more realistic than the slaughterfests of Diablo II. An enemy the same level as you should be respected, for it has the capability of killing you if it catches you unawares and doesn't get dealt with well. Yes, a single enemy. In Diablo II, a single monster was barely a threat unless it was a special boss. So, when your team of 5 takes on 5-6 monsters of the same level, it's a pitched battle, especially in instances against elite monsters (elite meaning they have lots of extra hit points). Those used to Diablo II may find the pacing of WoW to be slow as a result, and try to "rush" fights too much because they're used to a game where you plow through enemies like they're pinatas.
2) In Diablo II, "aggro" doesn't really exist; the first player to be seen by a monster becomes the target. That whole system seems laughable to me now, for it allows tanks to sit out front and take damage while others just pile it on from the safety of the rear. WoW don't work that way, folks! Monsters are more intelligent than that. If your mage opens up with a giant can-o-whoop, that monster isn't going to just stand there and take it. They're going to come for you hot-and-heavy. Can you blame them? Same goes for healers - why would any monster stand there and fight someone down to 10% of their health only to see them healed to full again over and over and over? No, they're going to turn and ream the healer a new one, just as a human player would. Especially because those high-damage casters and healers have weak armor and few hit points, meaning easier kills!
Learning aggro is the single biggest adjustment a Diablo II player faces. If you don't understand it or refuse to understand it, you won't be very popular in parties. Mages can just nuke, nuke, nuke and then feel like they're "helping" the party. However, when they draw aggro away on each and every fight as a result, forcing the healers and tanks to constantly shift their attention over to protecting them, it'll get old fast. Tanks need to learn to draw aggro from all enemies around so that their healers can protect them without worry of being slaughtered. In general, the classes that do the most damage are the weakest, and the classes that absorb the most damage are the strongest. It's that way for a reason, and in a party, every class has its proper role.
3) Speaking of "role" in parties, variety is greatly lessened in WoW. If you play a Priest, you're expected to play a certain way. Play a Paladin, another way. Unlike in Diablo II's skill system, where a number of different character setups could be effective, there is a clear "best" setup in WoW for each character class. Talents do seem to add a little variety, and may continue to branch characters out a bit as the game heads more to final, so this is subject to change. After all, Blizzard is still kicking around the idea of racial spells/skills, so that a Gnome Warrior does not equal a Human Warrior. We'll see.
4) With a persistent online world, there can be an actual economy. So far, few exploits have been found and they've been squashed quickly. However, it's inevitable that something's going to be exploitable come release and produce a ton of gold for some characters. How Blizzard responds will be interesting. A sudden massive cash import into a few characters that is then closed off will result in a skewing of the economy, especially with auction houses.
5) Quests are not necessary. You can play the entire game without performing a single quest except for those related to your race, needed to unlock abilities or spells. For example, Warlocks have to solve quests to get each of their minions. Other than that, trying to perform every quest in the game is not only almost impossible, but inefficient to boot. Learning the most efficient order/system to the quests results in faster leveling, but they're by no means necessary to advance to the highest level. I've heard of some players who simply never bother questing, preferring the complete freedom to just go anywhere and kill anything they feel like over having missions that "constrict" their play. A Diablo II nut will feel the quest system to be overwhelming, since there are simply far more quests available than you can complete in the course of the game. It's best to try to clear out an area of quests before moving on to a new one and picking up another reamload of quests, if possible, although most areas are designed such that you will do some quests at first and then come back later when you're a higher level.
6) The aggravation of playing with an inexperienced/poor gamer is heightened. In Diablo II, if your partner(s) got you in hot water, you could open up a Town Portal and escape in a second (or less!). Not so in WoW - there are no fast escapes whatsoever. It only takes one bad pull, one too-agressive move from one player in a group to wipe out the whole group, and there's not much anyone can do to stop it or get away. In the wide-open non-dungeon areas, you can usually run to try to get away from a monster's range (they only follow you so far), and sometimes escape that way. In a dungeon, you have no option. This is why having 5 players isn't always better than having 4 when going down into an instanced dungeon. That 5th player might do more harm than good and get everyone killed. This could cause a little strife even amongst Lurkers - it's no fun to be playing for 2+ hours in an instance to get to the end boss only to have a member of the party screw up and get everyone plastered. Likewise, if you're the one who makes the mistake, try not to get in a huff if your partymates point out what you had done wrong - instead, learn from it. You WILL make mistakes as you learn the game. However, instances are not good places to try new strategies. :)
7) Travel time. It simply doesn't exist in Diablo II. You can portal to town at any time, and take waypoints to get you around to new areas instantaneously. This doesn't work in a MMORPG, where travel is a necessary evil. You may find the travel time exceedingly dull if you're used to the whiz-bang instant action of Diablo II. The key is to minimize the travel time necessary by sticking in an area to do quests as long as you can, smartly positioning your hearthstones, etc. At first, travel isn't much of an issue - the first 10 or so levels of your character will be spent in the same area. You don't really start to significantly travel around the world until you're 20. By the time you're 40, quests will have you moving all over the world on a regular basis, so managing efficient ways to get around with your quest deliveries and rewards can really minimize the time you're staring at a gryphon/bat/hippogryph/etc's back. At that point, keep your Hearthstones set to a central location - one of the major cities - so that you're never more than 2 flights from anywhere.
That said, there are things in the game that speed travelling. Mages have the extra luxury of being able to teleport to the major cities at any time (after level 20), allowing them to keep their hearthstone pointed to a more remote location. At level 40, they can teleport groups of people to the major cities. Warlocks can summon players to their location from anywhere in the world, provided that there are two other players by them who can assist with the spell. Druids have the travel form to speed running. Tauren have plainsrunning, and other classes have mounts. As the world opens up to you when you gain levels, so too will these alternate methods of getting around faster.
Please add to this as you think of things...
-Bolty
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Cryptic - 08-05-2004
Issues (or misconceptions on my part) that people would probably want to see elaborated:
⢠You canât get to level 99 in 72 hours
⢠Finding a good group, and sticking with it, is crucial
⢠You will get lost
⢠Having 5,000 people in the game, instead of 8, changes things like social interaction, monster density, respawning issues, etc.
⢠You WILL get lost
:P
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - lemekim - 08-05-2004
How do you get lost if you can use a map and see where you are? =(
As for the whole aggro thing... I don't think you can call the system laughable. In fact, I find it more laughable when I see 10 monsters piled on top of each pounding on the same target. Or the monsters hitting you from 20 feet below water. Or the mobs teleporting around to catch you. That part will definately be frustrating for Diablo players, who are used to be able to use terrain and obstacles for crowd control. So you can add that as 8 or something.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Refrigerator - 08-05-2004
Quote:Or the monsters hitting you from 20 feet below water. Or the mobs teleporting around to catch you.
Also running up cliffs that are impossible for players to run up at all. I suppose it's all to prevent cheapness, and just wailing on a melee mob with ranged attacks and eventually killing it... But the lake thing is just ridiculous. :blink:
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Jim - 08-06-2004
Hi
What kind of rewards are offered in WoW Quests that make them Unnecessary to pursue ?
Are there any Quest Items that would help a character more than Monster drops, Player crafted or NPC store bought Items, like Special Jewelry, a Weapon or Armor ?
I would like to think there are Quest items that when used would make your character Stand Out "Visually" as well as serve as a Badge of Honor.
ps: I have not read many posts here at the WoW forum in the past 3 months, so please if this is covered in a different Post supply the URL...Thanks :D
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Artega - 08-06-2004
I didn't really have many problems going from D2-style to WoW-style. I did die once or twice due to picking off more than I could chew, but since I played SevenLances D2 (a much more difficult version of D2 - one that teaches you to retreat, and often) up until a year ago, I guess the strategy of retreating was already there.
I've only played a Warrior so far, and he's only Level 14. I've also done nothing but soloing, so I don't have much to chip in as far as party-play goes.
Quests aren't necessary, but they are very useful - for the XP reward if nothing else. Getting 850 XP is quite nice when the monsters you're slaying are only worth 80 XP.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Saxywoo - 08-06-2004
Another thing is that even though you may be a level 14 melee character, going toe-to-toe with a level 15 melee monster or a level 15 casting monster can be a deadly choice. When a lightning bolt or fireball hits you for ~50 damage a pop, you're going to get hurt a lot, and a lot faster. To put it simply, even a single level between player and monster where the monster has the higher level, can make a huge difference.
WoW also emphasizes the importance of taking out the ranged attackers first. If you have an archer plugging away at you while you also have 2 melee monsters hitting you, you really need to take out the ranged attacker first. Once the ranged attacker (who can run and hit you from a distance again) is dead, take on the melee monsters.
When dealing with bosses, there is a BIG difference in who you go after first. In D2, you would take out the minions first. In WoW, it's sometimes good to take out the boss first. so instead of a beefcake of a boss pounding on you, you might have 2 lower level minions hitting you, for significantly (in some cases) less damage.
In D2, monsters generally didn't run, unless they were specificly ranged attackers (archers). In WoW, humanoid monsters (who have a "social monster" classification) will run when they are hurt enough to try and get help from others of their kind. Some of the animal-like monsters will call (like the Raptors in The Barrens) for help.
You want to go from one of the main continents to one of the islands quite a ways from the coast? Think again. In D2, when you got tired, you would stop running and just start walking. In WoW, fatigue can kill you.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
SaxyCorp
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Bolty - 08-06-2004
Jim,
Most often, the quest rewards that give items are significantly better than those you can buy or make with tradeskills - a problem that players have been complaining of for some time. At the lower levels, this is almost always true. I'm finding though with my character in the 40's now that quest rewards are becoming less and less utilized as equipment on my chars. As you get higher in level, the random drops from monsters in instances and high-level tradeskill items seem to take over, which is good.
Quest items actually have the opposite effect of "standing out." At low levels, the quest items are so much better than anything else that everyone starts to look the same. Cloth wearers (casters) in Westfall are practically all wearing the greenish Harvester's Robe for example. It starts to be silly after a while. :) The options really open up the higher you get, though.
-Bolty
As mentioned above, level difference in WoW is MUCH more important than in Diablo II. Taking on a monster 1 or 2 levels higher than you is a real fight. PvP'ing against someone 5 levels higher than you is almost impossible.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Tal - 08-06-2004
Bolty,Aug 6 2004, 06:32 AM Wrote:PvP'ing against someone 5 levels higher than you is almost impossible.Or even 4 levels. ;)
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - TheDragoon - 08-06-2004
Quote:When dealing with bosses, there is a BIG difference in who you go after first. In D2, you would take out the minions first. In WoW, it's sometimes good to take out the boss first. so instead of a beefcake of a boss pounding on you, you might have 2 lower level minions hitting you, for significantly (in some cases) less damage.Generally you have to be pretty cautious and resort to some metagaming for information on this, however. Many bosses spawn additional minions as they drop down in life so it can actually be MUCH safer to take down the minions first so that, at most, you're dealing with 3 mobs rather than 5+ mobs when the boss finally drops. Mr. Smite, Van Cleef, and Hamhock are such bosses where you should really concentrate on the minions first.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Guest - 08-08-2004
With a bit a care a game company can keep the economy in line with relative easy(with respect to exploits I mean).
I know Mytthic has down this. Twice i the history of a DAoC an exploit become know after a patch - both times Mythic hopped in within hours and fixed the issue while rolling back the exploiters.
Mythic offers free game time for reporting bad exploits and has system flag so they can intestigate anyone who accumulated money to fast. It seems to work well.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Artega - 08-08-2004
This doesn't mean that it's impossible or improbable to take on monsters of a higher level than you. When I first ventured into the Barrens, I was Level 12. I got slaughtered by the Thunder Beasts (which are LV20-ish) that, for some reason, were tramping about the Mulgore-Barrens path, but I was able to fight (and kill) LV15 and LV16 monsters, though I'd only have 20-30 HP after the fight. Once I reached XR (The Crossroads), I would sometimes successfully fight two or even three monsters that were a level higher than me without dying. Level difference is a lot more important than in it ever was in D2, though.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Jini - 08-09-2004
The most important difference between a MMOG like WoW and a game like Diablo 2 is reputation.
You will invest hundreds of hours into one or two characters. This will be on the same server with a few hundred people. What you do affects what those people think of you. If you play in an anti-social manner it is not easy to reroll with a new name and get to high level quickly. Your investment of time will be lost.
This point is not easily seen during the Beta as all of the characters will be wiped and everyone will have to start over. Nonetheless this is a critical difference, always be aware of the Golden Rule.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - TheDragoon - 08-09-2004
Speaking of which, some of the players out there are looking to try and help police the effort to keep the annoying, scammer-type people from ruining everyone else's playing experience. Check out ninjalooter.com to see more specifics on how this works. They're even working to combine that database with the Cosmos/Thottbot GUI plugin to allow you to see if someone is listed on Ninja Looter while IN THE GAME via some special visual. Sounds interesting to me! :)
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - NuurAbSaal - 08-09-2004
Could you please elaborate on the issue of "ninjalooting"? I still hope to get into the European Beta and would like to know about something so serious people start a website/service over it.
Coming to think of it, maybe a "Beware of Scam etc. !" thread for WoW newbies (read: European Beta Lurkers) could be installed once we know how many (if any :P ) Lurkers make it into Beta (and after it has started, of course).
I would sure appreciate a thread like this :)
Thanks in advance
Nuur
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - --Pete - 08-09-2004
Hi,
Check out ninjalooter.com to see more specifics on how this works.
Right. First, given the D1 and D2 experience, maybe they ought to make a list of non-bastard players. It would be a whole lot shorter. Second, nice of ninjalooter.com to set up a way that one or two people can screw everyone and anyone.
Anyone who thinks that screen shots are valid evidence for anything is too dumb to pound sand. And I especially get a kick out of "To help prevent against our greatest âworryâ of fake screenshots slipping past us, multiple screenshots of the chat - before and after the ninjalooting occured will be needed." Right, again. All you have to do is either keep your crystal ball warmed up and working so that you can get that pre-"crime" shot or use your time machine to do it after the fact.
Bah, the "solution" looks to me a lot worse than the problem. Brings to mind the "scanners" of D1.
--Pete
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Cryptic - 08-09-2004
I don't think ninjalooter is the solution, although they have good intentions.
It's worth noting that WoW will be a pay-only game when it goes live, and that Blizzard is taking a no-griefing stance towards play. Combined, those two points should minimize the number of griefers playing on daddy's credit card.
But of course there will still be bad players, as there are in all games; the solution will be to group/guild with the worthies.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - Tal - 08-09-2004
Hi Pete
Pete,Aug 9 2004, 12:07 PM Wrote:Hi,
Check out ninjalooter.com to see more specifics on how this works.
Right. First, given the D1 and D2 experience, maybe they ought to make a list of non-bastard players. It would be a whole lot shorter. Second, nice of ninjalooter.com to set up a way that one or two people can screw everyone and anyone.
Yes this worried me as well. Especially since the only way to "clear" your name is provide your own testimony in the forums. A most worrying proposition for folks like me who neglect to take copious screenshots in the moments after a boss kill or who keep their crystal balls turned off in the evening. ;)
Pete,Aug 9 2004, 12:07 PM Wrote:Anyone who thinks that screen shots are valid evidence for anything is too dumb to pound sand. And I especially get a kick out of "To help prevent against our greatest âworryâ of fake screenshots slipping past us, multiple screenshots of the chat - before and after the ninjalooting occured will be needed." Right, again. All you have to do is either keep your crystal ball warmed up and working so that you can get that pre-"crime" shot or use your time machine to do it after the fact.
Bah, the "solution" looks to me a lot worse than the problem. Brings to mind the "scanners" of D1.
--Pete
For framing purposes the person only needs to scroll up in their chat logs in game. For purposes of establishing innocence this is much more problematic unless people get in the habit of taking screenshots of a boss prior to looting and after looting (and one would hope a successful roll on the drop). Even then, as has been proven by a few of the WoW forum goers and alluded to by you, screenshots can be faked by those with enough skill.
What also concerns me are the new sections that he has added - the Hall of Shame and Griefers. Especially since screenshots very frequently don't tell the whole story of an incident. So again, unless you take loads of screenshots to prevent innocent accusations, you're up the creek as soon as an idiot can send his screenshots in. I've had two incidents this past weekend that could have landed me in those sections. The first involved a lower level alliance player and I in Stranglethorn Vale. As I ran across to the Hunter's camp I got aggro'd by a group of Young Tigers (lvl 31) even though I was level 41. I decided that, rather than being stuck in recovery from the Tiger's rapid attacks, I would just push on to the camp. Unfortunately a level 32 warrior happened off the road behind me and got the returning mob's hate and was swamped. I wouldn't have known he had gotten trained if the warrior hadn't had stated in the general chat that he got trained by a pally. I turned and was able to help him out by killing the beasts and healing him. It would have been all to easy for him to take a screenshot of my careless training and not provide that I did turn and help him. The second incident stemmed from Roane and I getting attacked by some Undead guards outside Tarren Mill. We defended ourselves and were getting pounded hard when an Undead warrior (31) showed up and attacked me, contributing to my death at the hands of the gaurds. But much later I came across the same undead, again with PvP enabled and attacked him, killing him. I'm sure I would be in the Ganker's category if based on just the part of the story that Ninjalooter.com provides.
I'm not justifying my actions in either case as being right. I could have avoided even an innocent training by killing the tigers as each aggro'd me. My only reason for not doing so is that I was tired and wanting to log off for the night after turning in a quest. I also could have taken the high road and not attacked the warrior in the second incident but c'mon...he asked for it. ;)
I just don't see how Ninjalooter.com could be as useful as the authors stated. The risk of abuse far outweighs any potential use it might have.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - lemekim - 08-09-2004
Jini,Aug 9 2004, 12:25 PM Wrote:The most important difference between a MMOG like WoW and a game like Diablo 2 is reputation. I don't see the reputation as being the difference here... You can gain notoriety in WoW just like in Diablo, although right now it's easier in WoW because simply there is way less people then in Diablo. After WoW goes live, I don't see there being any difference. In WoW, everyone goes by the character names and you cannot even find out the account name of the person playing that character. In Diablo, you can make a new account, although that's a bit more hassle then just making a new character. Thus rerolling is fairly easy right now. And getting to high levels - it all depends on what you mean by high level. Getting to 99 in Diablo is probably far more time consuming then getting to 60 in WoW, but getting to 50 in Diablo as opposed to 30 in WoW is probably easier in Diablo.
You will invest hundreds of hours into one or two characters. This will be on the same server with a few hundred people. What you do affects what those people think of you. If you play in an anti-social manner it is not easy to reroll with a new name and get to high level quickly. Your investment of time will be lost.
This point is not easily seen during the Beta as all of the characters will be wiped and everyone will have to start over. Nonetheless this is a critical difference, always be aware of the Golden Rule.
Maybe things would be more different if one could find out account names instead of the character names, since that way you would need to purchase a new account to become completely untraceable. But I don't think Blizzard will allow that, and until then the reputation will not be a difference here.
Diablo II vs World of Warcraft - --Pete - 08-09-2004
Hi,
I've had two incidents this past weekend that could have landed me in those sections.
I've had my fair share, too. Like you, I've unintentionally trained groups of mobs. If I see that I'm doing so (i.e., I spot someone of lower level that might get aggroed on the "bounce"), I'll stop to kill them or at least help. But sometimes you just don't see that lower level character, or not in time.
And I've done some other things that probably would get my name on one of those lists if only part of the story were told. Sometimes through inattention or stupidity, sometimes in "retribution".
Besides, if I had to post on that ugly, sloppy, grammatically ignorant site to defend myself, I'd rather have the devil's own reputation. :)
--Pete