the outcome of the election

[Occhidiangela]

I voted for Kerry.

I'm tired of the global community hating America.

I'm tired of the obvious connections between oil, our government, and the Iraq War, and any other Al Queda/Saud/Middle Eastern connections you care to make.

I want the next two Supreme Court justices to be fair and levelheaded people, not some anti-gay and anti-abortion cronies Bush might stick in there.

I'm tired of tax breaks for the stupefyingly wealthy.

And, quite frankly, I want a guy in charge who doesn't have Karl Rove's or Dick Cheney's hand up his ass making the puppet move and talk.

Of course, being pro-gay, pro-adoption, and pro-UN may have something to do with it.
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I am also pro UN, in that I like that the UN exists and can function across a wide spectrum of communal endeavour. What I am opposed to is its status as a haven for bureaucrats who practice hypocrisy as a matter of course, see the un accountable money in the 2.5% oil for food override and the further "not so clean" money from Saddam, as well as the problem that too many of the member nations do not have a functioning representative government . . . to include any number of the US's Arab "allies." Unless we all enter from a the same enlightenment basis, which strand of philosophy the UN grew from, the UN acts as a cover of alleged legitimacy for tyrants . . . to include any number of South American dictators that the US supported during the Cold War.

The UN can be improved upon, it can be a more effective organization. No need to write it off . . . RW Hawks please take note . . . but changing any bureaucracy is hard, takes constancy of purpose, and a critical mass of folks who want to change. The critical mass, riding the gravy train, as yet resists effective change.

A work in progress, and worth working at, in my view.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Now, just about every nation in the world hates us.  Not me personally – I have lots of friends and business contacts around the world that tell me they like me, they like my country, but they hate my country’s leadership.  And after the Iraq debacle, who can blame them?

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Interesting. Which do you really mean: they hate our country or our leadership? And by leadership, is it that they resent the fact that we are, by default, the leader of the Western World, since no one else will do it? <== Leadership is more than talk, it requires action.

Ironic thought: "Frequently wrong, but never in doubt." How some folks described a pretty decent leader named Ronald Reagan.

My interaction has been different than yours, in re foreigners, and to be frank with you, if a bunch of Euro Liberals, the same sorts who supported the Red Brigade and the French Communist party during the Cold War, do not care for America, I care not.

Curious: what information, what soda straw view of the world do your colleagues use to form their positions?

Personally, were today the day we got 4 more years of Senator (President actualy) John, as in John McCain, I'd be grinning. As it is, I will do as always when I cast my eye on news from Washington, which is insert a nice big grain of salt between my teeth.

Occhi

[Cryptic]

The difference is that Bush has proven that he will take actions that result in the death of innocent men, women and children, while Kerry angers veterans because the war experience affected his ideals. Bush has the disadvantage of having been president - he's proven what he will do when it comes down to it. Kerry, for good or ill, hasn't had that office and therefore we don't know what he'd do. When it comes to presidential precedent, good and bad, we have facts for Bush and speculation for Kerry. So I think it's entirely logical that people would base opinions on Bush's record as commander in chief - not to exaggerate, since I don't fear for my life, but I do fear for freedom under the patriot act.

But if you have proof of that Kerry thing, I'd love to hear it.

Wait a minute. Nevermind.
:P

[Occhidiangela]

Why did you vote for him? Thanks, Fragbait
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Simple. The Democrats did not offer up a leader. They offered up a front man who was tied too strongly to a leftist agenda, and who has by his public statements indicated that he does not consider the sovereignty of the United States of America as important. Given my oath to the Constitution of the United States, that concern was very important to my extremely difficult decision. I was unhappy with my choices.

The Democrats showed that they sneeer at the moderates in their party as hard as the Fundies sneer at the Republican moderates. *Grrrr* That understanding gave me no motivation to accept the whole Democratic party package, to vote for change for the sake of change.

Senator Kerry himself was not the problem, his lack of demonstrated leadership aside, it was . . . the folks who propped him up, and the entire campaign of hate, vitriol, and venom that has been going on since November four years ago. He ran on a campaign platform, which had been built long before he outlasted his competitors in the Democratic party, of hate, of negative energy. I can't vote for people who do that.

My vote was also a message to George Soros, and to Hollywood: shut up and be rich, shut up and sing, unless you have something substantive to say. Slinging BS don't get my vote. I have an extremely well developed BS detector, partly because I have been known to sling my share! :lol: I sincerely hope that it was not hyperbole when Pres Bush addressed "all of you who voted for Senator Kerry" when he said "I will work to earn your trust." Backing that up is an endeavour worth undertaking, and if accomplished, might do a bit to heal a rift that has been growing in our country for the past four years. Tough goal to aim for, not ready to bet on the outcome just yet. Hope only at this point.

Now that the spewing of BS is done with, we might all ask Lenin's infamous question:

Chto Delat ?

Occhi

[LochnarITB]

I would probably vote for the green candidate but mainly against Bush.
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I am really surprised that Bush won. I live in Minnesota, the state that elected Jesse Ventura for Governor. Prior to that election, I kept hearing that he had no chance. The feeling I had was that there was a groundswell of "he's not the other two" and that he would be elected not for his own platform but against the other platforms. I had the same feeling about Kerry because "he's not Bush". There really was nobody else even on the radar screen, unlike the exposure Jesse got, so it seemed that it was going to be lesser of two evils choice and that people were seeing Kerry as the lesser evil.

[Cryptic]

Interesting. Which do you really mean: they hate our country or our leadership?

This requires a general answer – but overall, they hate our leadership, which also pertains to the American populace for “letting” the administration do what it does. This hate dissipates on the individual level (in most cases) when they are forced to consider an American, as opposed to the plural. But largely, they view us as they view our leaders.

Ironic thought: "Frequently wrong, but never in doubt."

I’m not sure if this was intended as a passive-aggressive slight against me, or if it was a continuation of the previous, so I’ll pass it by.
B)

My interaction has been different than yours, in re foreigners, and to be frank with you, if a bunch of Euro Liberals, the same sorts who supported the Red Brigade and the French Communist party during the Cold War, do not care for America, I care not.

Which I believe is the majority opinion of Americans, and part of the reason why we are viewed as arrogant and self-serving. But I believe the best way to sway even those we don’t respect is to set a positive example, not to disregard every opposing foreign view as invalid.

Curious: what information, what soda straw view of the world do your colleagues use to form their positions?

In order, the media, personal visits to the US, and casual discussions with my associates. Which is far from ideal, but the majority express a desire to understand our systems – which is much more than I can say for the average American when faced with the political systems of Ireland, Tanzania, Hong Kong, Turkey, etc.

Personally, were today the day we got 4 more years of Senator (President actualy) John, as in John McCain, I'd be grinning.

I actually agree with you. I would have had a much more difficult choice if McCain was up for president. He’s a far more capable and admirable man than Bush is.
:unsure:

[Occhidiangela]

1.&nbsp; The difference is that Bush has proven that he will take actions that result in the death of innocent men, women and children, while Kerry angers veterans because the war experience affected his ideals.&nbsp;

2.&nbsp; but I do fear for freedom under the patriot act.

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On point 1: Just as President Clinton did in Serbia, not to mention in the Sudan. Just as every Palestinian will do if given a chance in Israel. So what? Innocence is a presumtion, not a fact. You are also working from somewhat flawed information. For example, that was no wedding in Ar Ramadi back in May. Period.

As to that nasty thing called "collateral damage"" . . . When folks hide behind the skirts of their women, in a war, the shields sometimes get hit. Try looking at reality, rather than a phantom utopia that cannot be achieved. Also consider what you and others can do to stop the homicide by vehicle, 50,000 presumed innnocent per year, commited by careless drivers, unlicensed drivers, drunk drivers, and incompetent drivers. That is something you may actually be able to make a difference with, MAAD sure has, when backed up by a bunch of other concerned citizens. :blink:

As to point 2, I added the numbers for organizational reasons, you are not alone, and writing your Congressman and Senators is a good place to start. Might want to add to that concern the waste, fraud, and abuse that is the creation of "Department of Homeland Security" and the "NTSA."

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Bleh! I wasn't paying attention.
" about 90% of our population would have voted for Kerry" was what I meant. I don't know what I was thinking. :)
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Who cares? It was not your election.

Got it? You want Europe to be stronger, to be less of a second string player to America? Make the sacrifice, and pay for it.

Otherwise, your opinion is all just a lot of wind, like an EU minister's meeting!

Occhi

[Skandranon]

That opinion really has no place in this thread.

Glad we agree.

[Occhidiangela]

No offense to any Americans intended, I just don't appreciate the current politics of your country (or at least parts of it). Especially since the gay marriage ban seems to find its roots in religion, which I personally believe should be kept as far away from politics as humanly possible. You simply should not legislate based on religious grounds.
But I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully comprehend the concept of religion as it is in America.
ManaCraft
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Don't like American politics? No problem, stay in Denmark, it's a neat place with great people (to include yourself! :) )

Don't understand religion, do you, and its relationship to the social world that is politics? Not surprising. Europe, of course, never had any sort of governmental-religion relationship . . . *bursts out laughing so hard he spills his coffee*

The European Enlightenment is to blame, since it gave birth to the French (and for that matter, American) Revolution, which gave birth to a direct war against the Pope* . . . and which gave birth to Communism, a European idea of governance that that completely bans religion. See, over here, we let religion co exist with government, for better and for worse, and continue to struggle with the places where they rub against one another. It's been a 220 year long struggle that continues. Life is not a TV series, it is a continuum.

How about you read the history of Europe from 1000 to about 1650? See why the American system was a radical departure from that. Then, look at European historhy from 1650 to 1917, and see how that was a different kind of departure from the original. You will understand better, I think, when you are done. I choose 1650 due to its closeness to the English Civil War.

* You will note that Garibaldi CONQUERED the Papal states and was kind enough to let the Pope continue on . . . he could have had the Pope killed and the Vatican razed, had he chosen to do so, which he did not, for a variety of reasons, many of them political. (And the fact that the country that he was trying to unite war predominantly Catholic, and he wanted some taxpayers to tax when he was done . . .)

Occhi

[Chaerophon]

Interesting. Which do you really mean: they hate our country or our leadership? And by leadership

Well... much of the world hated the leadership of America, and the steps that it has taken over the last four years. A majority of Americans just validated those steps. You do the math. I don't doubt that we're a large step closer to a general hatred than what we were yesterday.

I predict that over the next four years we see the EU turn inwards, the countries of East Asia begin negotiating closer ties, and an American struggle to reclaim its balance of payments. The first two do not bode well for the latter, and I don't think that the economy will be in any better shape four years from now than what it is now.

[Chaerophon]

How about you read the history of Europe from 1000 to about 1700? See why the American system was a radical departure from that. Then, look at European historhy from 1781 to 1917, and see how that was a different kind of departure from the original. You will understand better, I think, when you are done.

Then, look at the modern executive theocracy in the US, operating on the supposition of Cold War Realist principles of hegemony that it can no longer sustain, and... scratch your head confusedly? 21st Century? Naw, let's compare with Europe circa 1000...

[Occhidiangela]

Well... much of the world hated the leadership of America, [right][snapback]59107[/snapback][/right]

That resentment predates President Bush by about 50 years. Try about 1950, just after the UN was formed. Heck, try earlier . . . just pick your pundit carefully!

The non-aligned movement, which later became known as the Third World . . . has been alive and whining for a long time.

As to your economic predictions, you may be right. Don't know. I do know that the status quo of two years ago and two years hence will be different, and that the world economic situation, continualy changes. We just all tend to get wealthier when there is a Pax Americana, Pax Britannia, Pax Council of Vienna, what have you, that keeps conflict down to a dull roar.

Occhi

[Cryptic]

Just as President Clinton did in Serbia …

Very true. But you’re speaking under the false presumption I voted for Clinton.

As to that nasty thing called "collateral damage" …

And the collateral damage would not have occurred if there wasn’t a war going on.

Who cares? It was not your election.&nbsp; Got it? You want Europe to be stronger …

Oh, come on now. That’s extremely insulting, and an example of what I have to bash through every time I want to be respected as an individual overseas. Your intelligence and devotion to this country and its military are impressive, but the nonchalance with which you regularly greet even civilly aired disagreement - especially from Europeans - is abhorrent.

I realize that you regard the Lounge as your personal roost by way of seniority – which is fine. I also realize that I may be banned soon for daring to call you out on this flagrant misuse of your deserved reputation. Why do you have to insult the entire world for daring to have an opinion on a leader who is going to affect their lives from afar? They are allowed to have their opinions, just as you’re allowed to disrespect them, and just as I’m allowed to call you on it.

[Occhidiangela]

Then, look at the modern executive theocracy in the US, operating on the supposition of Cold War Realist principles of hegemony that it can no longer sustain, and... scratch your head confusedly?  21st Century?  Naw, let's compare with Europe circa 1000...
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Then, look at the modern executive theocracy in the US,

You are not even close. I won't return the favor of an insult to Canada at this time. How hard do want to be slapped for that irresponsible sound byte? Your standard is generall higher. Retake your own high ground, it looks good on you.

As to the Cold War influence, noted, and yes, it does not always seem to fit the current situation. Me, I want to see Russia in NATO, and sooner rather than later. Eye on China, and the Ring of Fire around the Indian Ocean.

As to sustain . . . an interesting security problem to resolve, and still a work in progress. Been involved personally in it.

I will point out to you that during the Cold War, we had any number of Allies who stayed with us so long as our economy and security blanket took care of them. Now . . . interesting, to see who the fair weather friends are, now that the heavy lifting is over. Very revealing. Any alliance, any coalition, is by nature temporary. The question, what is its term limit, can only be answered after its disollution.

Occhi

[Minionman]

I picked Kerry.

On the economy and thiis foreign policy stuff, I didn't see one person or the other standing out, and I don't think it really matters either way. National security seems to depend mainly on people doing the work in the army, FBI, etc. Economy I don't think either of them can effect. Education, healthcare, and Environment I shouldv'e looked up. Education and Healthcare. I haven't seen any descriptions of how it's been like. Environment Kerry hasn't said anything and I didn't see his voting recoerd on it, party lnes might get me to support him slightly on this over Bush. The main reasons I went one way were Bush's gay marriage and stem cell views, and in general the way he talks about those "family values" and "moral decay" related stuff. Abortion itself I don't care that much on, but other related issues I have stronger feelings.

There are a few issues that I don't seem to really fit anyone on. Gun laws I think should be left up to states or particular areas, whether this mucks up laws or not is up for grabs. Taxes, social security, and healthcare I 'd probably come up with different stuff than what most people are saying.

[Minionman]

Another interesting side to this is that people are more focused on the wars than on healthcare, when at this point maybe 4-5000? people from the U.S. have been killed by the wars, and healthcare seems to effect a lot more during that time.

And than there's the the way way people pick to control social issues but not economic ones, or the other way around.

[Nystul]

I knew John Kerry wouldn't win, simply because middle America is so incredible ignorant.

If you want the world to think you are smarter than millions of your neighbors to the south, you are off to a bad start. The next time you insult the wisdom of dozens of Lurkers, at least use proper grammar.

Why did Bush win? Perhaps it's because legions of Americans are sick of being told what is good for them by the elitists who share your attitudes.

I've said before that when people call Bush an idiot, it reflects personally on those of us (rural, religious, or otherwise) who have entrusted him with the highest office in our country. Perhaps I should thank you for skipping the middle man and calling us idiots more directly.

[Minionman]

I've tried to have a similar discussion with people, and have come to the following conclusion:

Most people are incapable of discussing politics.

I don't care with which side of the coin one's allegiance lies, he'd best have some reason behind his statements other than "your candidate sucks!" or personal attacks upon those that voted for said candidate.

I voted for Bush, seeing him as the more capable of the two candidates and a man that has surrounded himself with a competent cabinet.&nbsp; Bringing that up in public, I of course wouldn't spark much discussion among those that support Bush.&nbsp; But the Kerry supporters WITHOUT FAIL would start flying off the handle at me.&nbsp; Statements like "he's the worst President in history!" or "I'm scared for my life if Bush wins" were heard quite a few times.

I can only suspect that I'd get the same from myriad Bush supporters had I mentioned voting for Kerry.&nbsp; I don't mean to paint Kerry supporters as fanatics, it's just that the bulk of my experiences as of late have been on the business end of uninformed tantrums.&nbsp; I've also spoken with peopl who supported Bush but had ABSOLUTELY nothing to back that up, and that's just sad.

So yes, I've said why I voted for Bush (although it's a rather general explanation, I'll admit), but more importantly I'd like to ask people to cut with the petty attacks and exaggerations.

Aw, what the heck?&nbsp; If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

I voted for Bush because Kerry wants to molest my grandmother.
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Oh yeah?, well I actually voted for Kerry because Bush beat up my little brother (It's very hard to beat molesting a grandmother, you win this one). :)

This certainly is true. I am around a lot of anti-Bush people, instead of thinking of, say, congress races or how to win the next time, they mostly seemed to be whining. And than the Bush/Republican people in general I know also seem to talk about "socialist" instead of why certain programs won't work. It is a pain.

[Occhidiangela]

I picked Kerry.

Good for you, you voted. YAY!

On the economy and thiis foreign policy stuff, I didn't see one person or the other standing out, and I don't think it really matters either way. National security seems to depend mainly on people doing the work in the army, FBI, etc.

May I point out to you that the foreign policy and the security things, are all driven by resources ( in terms of what is possible, which does not necessarily mean that all decisions optimally use resources) and that your tax dollars support those. The economy can be influenced somewhat by policy, but not completely.

Economy I don't think either of them can effect.

I disagree with you there, they could either of them really screw it up. As to how "right" any President can get the economy, one wonders.

Education, healthcare, and Environment I shouldv'e looked up.&nbsp; Education and Healthcare.&nbsp; I haven't seen any descriptions of how it's been like.&nbsp;

Please be better informed in 2006 and 2008. It will make your vote more informed, and you better at peace with your decision one way or another. My take on education at this point is that public education has become a massive political battleground, since about school bussing, probably before, and it has not ended. Its core function seems to get lost in the battle. Bad news. Neither candidate offered me a vision I believed.

The main reasons I went one way were Bush's gay marriage and stem cell views, and in general the way he talks about those "family values" and "moral decay" related stuff. Abortion itself I don't care that much on, but other related issues I have stronger feelings.

At least you are strongly for a few issues that matter to you, and I personally support your concern in re a nonsensical position on the stem cell issue. Me, I am in favor of abortion as a choice, but I refuse to let Abortion be an issue on which I base any political decision. I consider it a medical and spiritual (human spirit, not religion) decision made by the parties concerned who did that sex thing. The government needs to get out of it.

There are a few issues that I don't seem to really fit anyone on. Gun laws I think should be left up to states or particular areas, whether this mucks up laws or not is up for grabs. Taxes, social security, and healthcare I 'd probably come up with different stuff than what most people are saying.

While you are coming up with different stuff than what most people are saying, could you say some of it here? :lol: One can get tired of seeing the same old thing, a few fresh view points would be most welcome, by me in any case. Maybe you do have the next great idea!

Occhi

Edited due to massive badness.