A Guide to Mages comment thread

[Skandranon]

LOL - you must of read that the second I posted it!  As soon as I posted it I thought I was going overboard and took out the first section.  That's pretty funny.
[right][snapback]71704[/snapback][/right]

Neither this nor the retroactive removal of the first section qualifies as an apology or an attempt at greater civility.

[savaughn]

Neither this nor the retroactive removal of the first section qualifies as an apology or an attempt at greater civility.
[right][snapback]71705[/snapback][/right]

Fair enough. I apologize for the sarcasm. The following line:

As a tank, and I've played a paladin to 52 so I do know what I'm talking about, I found polymorph macros exceedingly worthless.

... set me off. The message sent by this is "having played a paladin to level 52 I am the unquestioned authority on this and you are a fool to question me". It is this attitude that I was responding to with the sarcasm.

I will refrain from sarcastic retorts if you will refrain from informing me that my opinions are exceedingly worthless. Fair enough?

[Skandranon]

I will refrain from sarcastic retorts if you will refrain from informing me that my opinions are exceedingly worthless.  Fair enough?
[right][snapback]71707[/snapback][/right]

For my part, I apologize if that's the sentiment that was conveyed. I didn't intend to dismiss your opinion as worthless, merely point out that I had also seen it from the perspective of a tank, and that I wasn't taking only one viewpoint on the matter.

Responding to your original post, I am not violating my own Rule One in any way by suggesting that you might plan for mages to pick up all humanoid adds. Planning that way doesn't suddenly mean there are problems if the add is non-humanoid. Obviously, the flip side of a plan that says the mage is picking up all humanoid adds is a plan that says the tank will target and take the aggro of non-humanoid adds. No one's going to make a plan that says, "mages pick up all humanoid adds" which has no contingency if they're not humanoid. And if people do, that's not what I'm talking about when I say planning ahead.

If the mage is in the middle of a spell, it's no trouble - a quick tap on the "w" or "s" key - to interrupt casting to throw a sheep. And even if the mage's sheeping is delayed by some factor, it doesn't change the fact that the mage is going to sheep the add - the tank attacking it and then having to stop when the sheep comes, some unspecified time later, only offers greater opportunity for confusion. Yeah, the sheep may be late, but in situations like that I prefer to trust the plan and assume that it'll get sheeped sooner or later rather than try to ad-hoc a solution that may cause more trouble than it's worth. Sure, notification may help there, but every second the sheep is delayed is more time that you'll spend with one eye on the chat screen, waiting for that message to pop up, which is less concentration to be spent on aggro management.

You say that in the "real world", you often have no clue how or why you've popped the sheep. This is where my original paladin comment comes in - I, too, have "real world" experience in this, and I have never in any group, even when main-tanking, failed to notice what got sheeped, and, when it was popped, who popped it. When I popped a sheep I know I did it, because I'm always looking at my target with a portion of my attention and the puff of smoke around it is distinctive. When a sheep pops and it wasn't my target, unless I've cast Consecration I know it wasn't me. This is borne out by many of my upper-level raid and party experiences, as well - after a battle where the sheeps were popped, I have never failed to see someone apologizing for doing it. I do not question your experiences, but I submit that there is a significant portion of the playerbase that does not have trouble knowing when they popped a sheep.

Multiple adds aren't handled much better with a macro, either. If they're both humanoid, which can be seen at a glance, all a macro lets you know is that the mage is sheeping one of them (which should be determined in advance). In battle, it doesn't convey the critical information as to *which* is being sheeped more quickly than the spellcast itself would. You have two options: wait to see which one turns into a sheep or click each one, look at the nameplate, and compare them to the name indicated by the sheep macro. The first one takes 1.5 seconds. If you can do the second one in significantly less than that amount of time, go right ahead and ask your mages for macros. But I doubt a time savings of a half second or less are going to matter that much.

And, given that you're invoking Rule One, you can't forget to consider all the ways in which a macro can go wrong. Part of my objection to these is their effect upon party chat. My position, obviously, isn't that chat should be silent, but that its signal-to-noise ratio should be as high as possible. And with the number of alternative cues the polymorph cast offers, and considering how fast it is, a macro is most frequently noise. Party chat, in my view, should contain only messages that demand immediate, entire-party response - because a player's attention is already divided in so many ways.

Also, people do not hit buttons with perfect accuracy. I know this from seeing other people's macros in action - you can expect a lot of "Sheeping - <party member>" or "Sheeping - <no target>" results from a macro. You're either induced to ignore these messages or spend extra time recognizing that the message is bogus - the same info that not hearing a casting sound tells you. And what happens if an add is non-humanoid, but you aren't familiar with the critters in the area? Mage selects it and tries to sheep it, you get a "Sheeping - <target>" message, and it doesn't turn into a sheep. Now things get uncoordinated, worse than if there was no message at all, because you had some expectation that it might be a sheep and it isn't.

If you believe it helps you, request macros all you like. However, I don't believe that such macros are universally good advice and definitely not something to be done unilaterally, without consent or request from other party members.

[Tharn]

I have actually never seen anyone complaining at the sheep macro, however it's good to know for me some people have good reasons to not like it.

I primarily use it for two reasons:
1) That my target is not dotted, which is my biggest problem
2) To inform my party there's actually some sheep - because they sometimes seem to be forgotten

I'll have to try marking my sheep targets with Detect Magic

[Xanthix]

I have a few quick thoughts on the polymorph macro discussion.

First, I don't think it's spamming, since it should only happen once or twice per fight. However if you do worry about the messages being lost in party chat, you could make the macro do "/me is polymorphing %t." This way the text will be orange and will stand out. Also, people looking for party chat (blue) may be less distracted by it.

Second, in response to the thought that these messages are less useful because it is easy to see that something is being sheeped and to tell if you are popping sheep.I disagree with this. It's very easy for Warriors and casters to accidentally pop sheep. Warriors use AOE attacks like Whirlwind, Cleave, and Thunderclap to improve DPS and also constantly switch targets to keep aggro. As for casters, we have lots of DOTs we'd like to put on the mobs that aren't being sheeped. In these cases, I think a macro that says "Sheeping add" or "Sheeping the caster on the right" would be useful so others can modify which attacks/spells they use.

[Skandranon]

Second, in response to the thought that these messages are less useful because it is easy to see that something is being sheeped and to tell if you are popping sheep.I disagree with this. It's very easy for Warriors and casters to accidentally pop sheep. Warriors use AOE attacks like Whirlwind, Cleave, and Thunderclap to improve DPS and also constantly switch targets to keep aggro. As for casters, we have lots of DOTs we'd like to put on the mobs that aren't being sheeped. In these cases, I think a macro that says "Sheeping add" or "Sheeping the caster on the right" would be useful so others can modify which attacks/spells they use.
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You seem to say that, like Savaughn, you occasionally have trouble with popping sheep and accidentally doing so. Then by all means, ask for whatever aid you deem is necessary. However, this is not in any way universally true, and is not true at all for people that I've partied with. I don't question your experiences at all, but to claim that it either is or isn't easy is a universal statement that can't be backed up.

By the way, "sheeping the caster on the right" is an example of a macro that's totally worthless in combat. Not only are you expecting people to keep track of which mobs the casters are, but you're expecting them to all see "left" and "right" from your perspective, which is rarely ever the case in the middle of combat.

[mjdoom]

Once again I'm not sure exactly where I should reply to this so here will work.

I apologize ahead of time as I imagine this post is going to be long. After thinking about sheep/shack macros and seeing people's comments here I think I am going to add my own two cents. The short version is that I believe that these macros are an attempt at a crutch to cover sub-par play and that any fully competent group shouldn't have much need for them. Given that caveat the macros may actually be useful when you are partying with people who are not as reliable (pubbies tend to get this rep) and that is what my post on shackling made mention of.

I'm going to run through some of the pros can cons I have seen mentioned about the macros and add my comments here. If anyone sees anything I miss please tell me so that I can consider them.

First of all, some classes should never have to worry about popping a sheep. These include rogues, hunters, cat-form druids and any paladin or off tank who is providing dps (shamans?). These people should all be following some sort of assist pattern and the person who is main assist simply has to pick targets off of the tank's aggro list. As long as this main assist is competent and everyone is assiting him none of these characters should ever pop a sheep (or shackle; I'm going to consider them to be synonomous for the purposes of this discussion as they work virtually identically).

Warlocks would also fit in that previous list but for the fact that they have DoTs (as Xanthix mentioned). Priests also have SW:P that they like to toss around. This should honestly never be an issue. I learned very quickly as a priest that indiscriminately throwing SW:P around with mages in the party was an extremely foolish tactic. Any PC with a DoT attack should know how many mages are in the party. Until there are an equal number of sheeps to mages (aka 2 mages-> 2 sheep) do not cast any DoTs. Once you know who all of the sheep are feel free to open up on appropriate targets. For the most part these DoTs should be following the assist pattern of all of the dps classes anyway. If the fact that you have to wait 2 seconds extra to cast a DoT is the difference between winning and losing a battle than you have other issues.

Mages also should be following the same assist pattern but they are in the position of being the sheeper. Once they have successfully polyed a target they should fall in line with dropping other targets. The important thing here though is for the mage to communicate ahead of time how they are going to sheep. That means telling your party/raid what your sheep pattern will be on a pull and how you will handle adds. Once this is coordinated everyone should know this and react accordingly. This was mentioned earlier but a "sheep left" or known pre-pull pattern can easily be established and followed.
For sheeping adds it is imperative for the mage to try to sheep adds ASAP before they get into range of the tank or any aoe. If they don't then the sheep is going to be popped a solid majority of the time regardless of whether a macro is used. If the sheep is in range of aoe taunts or whirwind or the like the tank is going to have to adjust and move his position which might be a pain to do. Also note that this should only be an issue if the tank already has 2 or more targets. If the tank only has one target he shouldn't be cleaving or whirlwinding anyway and can continue to focus on that one target. The onus is on the tank to know if there is a mage with poly available that will be sheeping adds and not panic if one comes. They should trust that the mage will sheep that add as discussed earlier.

Quick point that came to mind here. Regardless of what party roll you play every player should always know the current sheep/caster ratio and know if poly is available or not. This allows you to react more appropriately under many circumstances.

The tank's job I already mentioned a bit above, but basically it comes down to understanding the sheep/mage ratio again. If there is a sheep available then the tank should be able to assume that the mage will poly an add. If not then the tank should go grab aggro on the add ASAP. If an add comes in and sheep is expected then the tank should hold off for a second on aoe taunts and attacks to avoid popping that sheep. You can still use any single-target abilities without a problem or just build up some rage (as a warrior). If the sheep ends up being too close move your position slightly to keep that sheep out of whirlwind or consecration range. This is sometimes not desirable but how is a macro going to help that anyway? Once again, if the fact that the tank stops aoeing for 2 seconds to assess the situation is the difference between life and death then you have other problems. For all classes it's just a matter of taking 2 seconds' prudence and sheep shouldn't be popped.

Paying attention to the "baa" sound, the casting animation, or a macro should rarely be necessary. You should be able to react indepent of those factors if you consider yourself to be a good player IMO.

I think that covers most of the situations that people have brought up in support of the macro. Still, it could cover for some of the times that things don't go exactly as planned so why not keep it as a safety net? The answers are pretty clear:

1.) Spamming chat. Even if the spell is only cast once or twice in a battle things like LoS issues, retargetting, and out of range castings can spam chat with a lot of poly messages in a short time. This can distract greatly from more important information.

2.) Distinguishing targets. As has been metioned before there can be multiple targets with the same name or it can be difficult to recognize which target a macro is referring to. This just distracts people from their real jobs. You'll know soon enough that a sheep is coming when it polymorphs and then you will see the sheep and know exactly which target it is. Once again this requires holding off for 2 seconds to see what is happening before you start switching targets. If you do pop a sheep you should instantly switch to a different target. The mage will almost certainly try again in another second and if you pop it twice then you are hindering the party. As Skan said, I have been in situations where if a shackle got popped I've had people apologize to me after the battle. If you pop a sheep you know who you are, just fix it and move on.

I personally ignore any sheep macros I ever see now and react with what I see on the screen in front of me. If your party has any experience and some simple protocols then the macro shouldn't be necessary and it's negatives say you just shouldn't use it. I'd even go so far as to say that you shouldn't use it with newer players and instead try to teach them to adapt without it. My opinion is that it is just a crutch and you are better off without it.

YMMV.

- mjdoom

[Quark]

Don't do this.&nbsp; Please don't do this.
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Slightly off-topic here, but how would you feel about a macro for Blind?

Blind is something that's hard to establish before hand, is only usable once every 5 minutes, and is generally an emergency technique that's hit or miss - if anyone breaks it, it's done for 5 minutes.

I have taken your Poly remarks into heart, but I don't know if Blind can be bunched into the same reasoning.

[oldmandennis]

Jeez, I didn't mean to start a huge contoversy over macros! I haven't even played a mage past lvl 7!

My main is a shamen, and often I off tank, especially adds going after the squishys. AFAIK, until there is an actual sheep, I can't tell the difference between poly and am. Usually I don't have a chance after the poly takes effect to stop my next swing. So what I'm saying is in a 5 person group, I like the macro. Take it for what its worth.

[Phoenix]

People breaking polymorph has happened often enough to me that I appreciate a macro.

[savaughn]

The short version is that I believe that these macros are an attempt at a crutch to cover sub-par play and that any fully competent group shouldn't have much need for them.&nbsp; Given that caveat the macros may actually be useful when you are partying with people who are not as reliable (pubbies tend to get this rep) and that is what my post on shackling made mention of.[right][snapback]71780[/snapback][/right]

I would substantially agree here. In fact, in general, in competent party play this really isn't even an issue. How many times do you have a pull where a walker can be sheeped but nothing in the pull can be? Not that often. If the party's functioning correctly, the sheep is part of the pull and the mage never really has to worry about sheeping adds - just keeping the initial sheep pollied.

If I'm playing with someone I don't know, there are several times I like to see that macro. When the sheep un-sheeps, I like seeing the macro because it means the mage saw it, too. That tells me I don't have to call out anything to remind him. If we're using polly for the pull, I like seeing the macro. If I'm playing my Rogue a macro lets me time my sap so that it hits the same time as a polly pull. This pretty much goes for every caster pull which will have a timer attached to the pull. These are pretty situational though.

First of all, some classes should never have to worry about popping a sheep.&nbsp; These include rogues, hunters, cat-form druids and any paladin or off tank who is providing dps (shamans?).&nbsp; These people should all be following some sort of assist pattern and the person who is main assist simply has to pick targets off of the tank's aggro list.&nbsp; As long as this main assist is competent and everyone is assiting him none of these characters should ever pop a sheep (or shackle; I'm going to consider them to be synonomous for the purposes of this discussion as they work virtually identically).[right][snapback]71780[/snapback][/right]

I totally agree that any class that is there solely to /assist will never pop a sheep. There's a caveat there though. These classes are often not there just to /assist. There are several times when a mob will step outside the standard pattern. Adds come in all flavors from walkers, tossing a heal too soon, accidental body pulls, having a sheep walk off in the wrong direction, etc. I don't care what group you are with or what the plan is, picking up 3 unexpected adds is not going to be covered by "the plan". The warrior can taunt one and then you have to wait for the cool down. A mage can sheep one - if there isn't already a sheep in play. Off-tanks can try and pull aggro temporarily.

Now, if a situation is going as expected, there's no need for macros at all. If everyone's /assisting correctly then whoever is assigned to watch for adds is doing so and the party will know when the priest runs out of mana because /assisting really isn't that tricky. But assume things are in Chaos. Here's the question: what goes over the chat now?

I personally like to see the following things:

1) Main Healer is Out of Mana. If you aren't the main healer, I don't care. What's more, this shouldn't require party chat - this should be /oom, possibly with a party chat back up comment.
2) Incoming! - Ideally only once. Again, use the voice emote, possibly with a party chat back up comment.
3) On me! - I blew it, and pulled aggro. /help with back up party chat comment. This should be used when there isn't a warrior in the party. In general, a warrior will see you get hit and taunt back the aggro without requiring the message. If there's no warrior, aggro is much more problematic and it may be time for an off-tank to swing into play.
4) Crowd Control/Got it! - In general the commands we're talking about here. These are answers to incoming/on-me that let the party know who's responding to the problem. Sure we all plan for an add, maybe two. Three is situational. If you get three adds, I'd like to know who's responding to what. Popping that sheep may very well be the difference between a wounded and shaky priest and a party wipe. Having two people try and control the same mob and let two of the others kill a cloth wearer - again - could be the difference between a wipe and a close encounter. Obviously still up for debate.

That's it. Incoming and On Me! will only get called once - maybe twice per encounter (if adds show up, on-me shouldn't be called since it's obvious the aggro needs to be cleaned up and the party should be working on it) You'll note there's not a place on this list for people to call for heals. If the healer can get to you, you'll get your heal - they know what your HPs are - that's ALL they're looking at. What's more, the only thing that doesn't get a voice macro is the "On the way" or "sheeping" or "shackling" messages. If you need them - they're there in chat. If not, say you're playing the tank and aren't part of the intercept plan? You can ignore them.

1.)&nbsp; Spamming chat.&nbsp; Even if the spell is only cast once or twice in a battle things like LoS issues, retargetting, and out of range castings can spam chat with a lot of poly messages in a short time.&nbsp; This can distract greatly from more important information.[right][snapback]71780[/snapback][/right]

There is no reason why a sheep message should be spammed. It can be on a different button (click sheep, click "sheeping" macro) or a mage can have two buttons - one with the message and one without. What's more, there's really only two more important messages that I'm aware of (priest oom and incoming adds) and both of those have voice emotes that are far more effective than the party chat message. The sheep macro is the Mage's way of saying "I'll help control the chaos" - every class has a way to do this. It's no more cumbersome for a mage to have a "I'm throwing a sheep your way!" macro than for a rogue to have a "I'm Off to Save the Squishies!!!" macro (yes, I actually ran into that on-line - made me giggle).

2.) Distinguishing targets.&nbsp; As has been metioned before there can be multiple targets with the same name or it can be difficult to recognize which target a macro is referring to.&nbsp; This just distracts people from their real jobs.&nbsp; You'll know soon enough that a sheep is coming when it polymorphs and then you will see the sheep and know exactly which target it is.&nbsp; Once again this requires holding off for 2 seconds to see what is happening before you start switching targets.&nbsp; If you do pop a sheep you should instantly switch to a different target.&nbsp; The mage will almost certainly try again in another second and if you pop it twice then you are hindering the party.&nbsp; As Skan said, I have been in situations where if a shackle got popped I've had people apologize to me after the battle.&nbsp; If you pop a sheep you know who you are, just fix it and move on.[right][snapback]71780[/snapback][/right]

I'm not sold on this one either. Lets assume that the spam issue is dealt with so that having information in the party chat isn't costing you anything. You have several adds. You spot a SHEEP macro come through the chat as you move to intercept the adds. One of two things happens:

A ) You can differentiate the mobs. Result: if you are targetting the mob with the sheep call, you can press tab and between the sheep and the intercept you are performing, the chaos is likely contained.
B ) You can not differentiate the mobs. Result: you pick one and hope.

The alternative: No SHEEP macro:

A ) You can not differentiate the mobs. Result: you pick one and hope.

How is this a negative?

Let me make this clear: I do not think that crowd control macros (or macros in general for that matter) are done correctly in game. Folks are still working this stuff out. Popping a sheep is hardly trivial. It often creates a mob who guns straight for the mage and if the range is close, getting that second polly off can take much longer. If a polly comes off successfully (or any CC for that matter) it generally means that what was a nightmare is now containable. I've seen far too many times where a mage went to polly, someone popped the sheep, the mage sheeps again, the sheep is popped again, and (if things are truly going wrong) about this time people start dying and a wipe follows.

Preventing this would be great. Rather than say "Don't use macros" because how they're implemented currently is obnoxious (and don't get me wrong, tying a macro straight into a spell and having it go off every time that spell does - that's pretty obnoxious no matter what the spell is), isn't it better to see if there's a way to use macros that works? This reminds me of how everyone used to say hunters have no part in a group... until people figured out how they worked effectively.

[Darian]

Anyone who macros sinister strike needs to be seriously smacked.&nbsp; :P
[right][snapback]71497[/snapback][/right]

Wait, so I should shelve, stillborn, my brilliant plan to macro sunder armor...?

/duck

re: Poly macros... I prefer to see them simply so that I know the mage is planning to poly at ALL, or as an acknowledgement of my request to do so. (With the mage I usually group with, this is usually redundant and irrelevant, but everyone else... yeah.)

[Darian]

I have to agree with Skandranon on this issue, and I'd like to add on to it.&nbsp; There are times where a mage will hit the polymorph key multiple times thanks to annoying line of sight issues (usually slopes).&nbsp; I annoy even myself when I spam "Polymorphing %t" three or four times into party/raid chat.

I only use a polymorph macro if my party asks for me to do so.&nbsp; The people who tend to break polymorph often (even two, three, or more seconds after it's been turned into a sheep) probably aren't going to end up getting a lot of benefit out of a last second chat message anyway.
[right][snapback]71507[/snapback][/right]

I think I need to amend my previous comment. The mage I usually group with does use a macro -- but it's not bound to the spell, and he only uses it before the fight (target and click solely to announce). Honestly, I hadn't even considered anyone using it bound to the spell, because that's bloody well useless; if you're announcing it as you cast pre-combat, by the time anyone notices it something's already bleating down the hallway, and if you're announcing during combat, who the hell's gonna see it?

[towelrod]

My mage is only in the mid 30s, but I always announce my saps with my 60 rogue. I find this to be extremely helpful in pickup groups, because usually the sap signifies the beginning of the battle. I watch the parties health and mana, and if I think they are ready, I hit the sap. That signals to the puller that he should fire away.

This is a great pace setter in a slow group. I can't believe how many times I've done this:

/p << Sapping so and so >>
... wait 5 seconds
/p what are you guys waiting on?

Even in guild only runs, where we all know each other pretty well, no one complains about these messages. I don't think we have any problems filling up /p. Maybe its just me -- I put /p, /s, and /g in one window and put all the other crap in another window that I ignore most of the time.

Also, if you are interested in using macros, use Healix instead of rolling your own:

http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=489

It gives you a bunch of options, and its smart enough not to send out the message if you are oom, or don't have something valid targetted. Its smart enough to know whether it should use /p or /emote, or /s, or /ra, or whatever you configure it to do.

[Savingsupertokyo]

Anxiously awating the finished mage guide :)

I'm already to lvl 40 with mine and I wanna know what is coming up!

[Skandranon]

Anxiously awating the finished mage guide :)

I'm already to lvl 40 with mine and I wanna know what is coming up!
[right][snapback]76667[/snapback][/right]

I'm trying to get it out as quickly as I can, but there are quite a lot of things on my plate at the moment. Maybe I can post up a preview section in the next few days.