A Guide to Mages comment thread

[Ruvanal]

Apologies for the derail, but I have to ask:  How are you doing this?  It seems to me like the direction a mob fless in is mostly random - while fleeing away from you is fairly common, I've had mobs run in other directions, or even straight past/through me, nearly as often.  :(
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In my experience, if there is clearly a direction away from me (take into account that some of the time exact position is not accurate do to positional desync with the server; see rogue grumbles concerning things like 'target not in front of you' etc.), I have found that about 75% of the time the flee direction is in the 90 degree cone centered on that line away from me. So while there is some uncertainty about the direction it is rather controllable. It is better than when I watch some mage just stand still the entire fight having a mob come straight in at them then end up turning to flee such that they are heading almost straight back toward where there are the most other mobs of their type. Effectively that player just set themselves up to be sure that have a fleeing mob go backa and get more help since has effectively been herded back into its own troops. This can also be very critcal when you are stuck in a postion where you end up with 2 or more mobs on you and the stuttering from the attacks of the untargetted mob may disrupt you long enough to let one slip away before you could nail it. I would rather know that it is not like to bring in an add in that case than to have to worry if I can make it through potentially more adds that it bring into the already messy fray.

Skandranon:

In general, such repositioning seems to me to imply placing myself between the mob I'm attacking and its social friends in order to drive it to an empty spot. Which is fine, except for the part where I have to get closer to the group of mobs that I desperately don't want to activate. Safety, for me, is finishing with Cone of Cold, Fireblast, and Scorch if necessary, since I can guarantee that they won't run far simply by not using wands.

Since I generally try to pull the mobs from the outer limit of my Frostbolt range and not my near the aggro range to the mob, I generally have plenty of room to move closer to the main pack without drawing any of the others onto me from aggro. I can also do the postioning often to have the mob go to one of the sides that do not have mobs in it too, so there is not always a need to get much closer to the main pack and still herd a fleeing mob away from the main group. I had also found there was not much point in running far from a target that is held in a Frost Nova as it was more likely that I would blunder into other mobs any way.

I also usually do finish most fleeing mobs with Fireblasts, Improved Arcane Explosion or other instant/fast cast spells also. But I know I want my wand skill to keep up with other weapon skills rather than have it fall into to the situation that several of you take as an automatic situation for how the wands are going to operate (lots fo resists or low damage partial resists). So I do look for opportunities to get a few shots off here or there so that the skill can keep pace so that I can avoid needing to do some sort of gruelling run just to get the skill back up to where it should be. Also if you check out, a lot of the better wands they have cast time of 1.5 seconds or less and can actually end up delivering that quick last bit of damage needed to finish a fleeing mob before it gets far. It just means that you need to already have your skill up so you do not face masses of resists.

To me keeping the wand skill up starting early in my mages life just gives me more options on what to effectively do in various situations.

[Ruvanal]

It looks like my server has come back online, so I'm going to stop here for now.  I would like to know what your testing methodology was for gathering your data, as mages are not capable of standing toe to toe with similar level mobs for the extended periods of time required to fire 30 or more wand shots.  What are the stats on your wand, as well?  If you want me to be more specific, you should follow suit.
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Littledude is using the Gravestone Scepter which has a shadow damage of 30-57 and speed=1.5 for a DPS of 29.

I used the CombtStats from the Cosmos UImod to track the hits, misses, resits and such. It allows you to reset the data collection when you want (in between each mob in this case). Also you can look up each type of attack seperately to see what its performance has been since that last reset or start of that play session. In those tests almost all damage came from the wand as the most that came from any other source was 2 swings from his staff on one of the mobs (I did not note if they even hit or not). To stand toe-to-toe with the mobs I used Mana Shield very liberably since that was the only place I planned on expending my mana during the tests. I did drink a couple of Lesser healing potions when I got sloppy with keeping the shield up at first, but generally it was not needed. It would only take a short break inbetween each mob to eat/drink to be back up. And since it took longer for me to copy the combat stats to paper for later this was not much of problem. Most of the mobs were finished off with my having more than 80% of my life and 40% of my mana remaining, so the statement " as mages are not capable of standing toe to toe with similar level mobs for the extended periods of time required to fire 30 or more wand shots." does not seem to fit actual facts that I experienced.

I can only imagine how much more mindless wand spamming would be required to get one's wand skill as close to cap as all weapon-based classes have theirs at all times.

It does not sound like you have really played some of these other weapon-based classes that much yourself. From having played through warriors and hunters quite a bit both in the closed beta and in the current game, they do not have their weapon skills at max all the time. And it can take some time to get a lagging skill into the max-5 to max range range if it is too far behind. While it does not usually take them too long to get teh skill upto 80% of max, the rest can be a long haul depending on the weapon that they are using and its frequency of use (weapon speed very important here). For example for my main hunter, the gun skill usually does not max until about halfway through the current level and that is a lot of shooting to be going through. The hunter almost never has the melee weapon at closer than 6-8 point below the cap as it is not used often enough. For my warrior it also tends to follow the same skillup rate as the gun on the hunter. If he switches to a different weapon than what he has usually been using, it can take as much as 1.5 levels of fighting with it to get it from the 80% mark up to capped if it is one of the slower weapon speeds.

Generally you only need your weapon skill with 10 points of the mob_level*5 point for the weapon to deliver good consistent damage output. Look at my data I listed earlier to see this. It was only when my weapon skill was at more than a 10 point difference to the mob_level*5 that I started seeing any significant resists crop up. And only when the weapon skill was near the point of 20 below the mob_level*5 that the resist started becoming serious detriment to doing damage. But if you look at it that is the same as when a mage is starting to fight mobs that 4 levels higher than themselves.

As to the point of grinding on the wand skill to get it up, the only time I have felt that I was ever grinding it was on the initial 25 points at the start and when I did the data collection listed above. Doing the proceedures that I discussed in other parts of this thread have resulted in my keeping the skill at a reasonable level without going through a lot of tedium.

[mjdoom]

Minor nit:  Druids can remove curses, too.  As a priest player, I'd go into a rant about how mages never cast remove curse, but that's just my pet peeve.

I'd just like to mention this point again. I realize that this guide hasn't been updated for late game yet but I've come across this more at the higher levels now. Basically as a priest my first priority in any battle is to dispel any effect I can (even before healing because healing does no good if, for instance, my party member is a frog or magically stunned or some other such thing). This means that not only am I constantly watching health bars, I am also looking for debuffs. As a priest I can dispel most magic effects and cure diseases, but I cannot remove curses. It is very frustrating to me when I see this situation and there is a mage around not removing those curses.

Thankfully I have not run into this often partying with Lurkers such as Skan and Lochnar but I still think that when you revise this for higher levels it is important to point out the usefulness of remove curse as curses become more common (and hurt a lot more).

And even though this is a PvE guide, one of the situations that pointed this out even more to me recently was while PvPing in Southshore for a little fun. These raids on Stormrage are generally not well organized on the Alliance side but it was still very frustrating to me to be dying to high level Warlock curses in group PvP. If PvEers ever intend to go into Battlegrounds (when they are available) it will behoove them to be aware of the need for remove curse against those high level Warlocks.

Now that I've rambled way too much I'm gonna shut up. I'd just like to see remove curse given its proper treatment as you write up the later level part. I'm sure you would have anyway but I just wanted to make sure. B)

- mjdoom

[LochnarITB]

It is very frustrating to me when I see this situation and there is a mage around not removing those curses.

Thankfully I have not run into this often partying with Lurkers such as Skan and Lochnar but I still think that when you revise this for higher levels it is important to point out the usefulness of remove curse as curses become more common (and hurt a lot more).
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My connection has been down for the last 24 hours so I'm trying to get through the Lounge quickly to get to WoW to get my fix and get rid of these awful withdrawal symptoms. Even so, I need to add a couple points about remove curse. I appreciate the comment about us using our ability. It may, at times, seem we are not doing as well as we can. There are a couple reasons for this. Realize that we are often channeling a spell. This means we need to let it finish before we can remove the curse, once we have noticed it. BTW, is there any way, such as an addon, to flash some notice in the middle of the screen that a party member has been cursed? Also, there are often times where I am trying to remove a curse and the cursed player runs out of range. I then have to chase them to get to where I can remove it. Also, if I know the curse is short lived and about to expire, I will not bother to take the time and mana to remove the curse that will dispel in about the same time anyway.

[Serendipity]

Sorry to bump this, but I wanted to add a couple of suggestions to your guide (which is pretty damn good as these things go).


Breakdown of the Improved Mana Shield Talent:

Rank 6 of the spell will absorb 570 damage in exchange for 1140 mana plus the 140 mana it costs to cast the shield. Improving it with talents yields 997 damage absorbed in exchange for 1995 mana (+140 again). Because the spell is instant cast with no recast, the real benefit comes from not having to drop 140 mana to recast it. The normal mana/damage ratio when taking into account the cost of casting the spell is 2.25:1 as opposed to the talent improved ratio of 2.14:1. This is not a particularly convincing improvement, I'd rather just refresh mana shield and spend the points elsewhere.

Further notes on Arcane Meditation from a thread on Graffe's Click here to see the whole thread

Everyone says arcane meditation is useless for the same reasons that they say that spirit sucks. mana regeneration is totally undervalued in WOW. suppose that arcane mind - more mana limit - was really 5 points for 10% total in this comparison.

let's suppose 6,000 mana pool at level 60 and a spirit of aquementas. we're comparing:

1. 15% mana rate through fight
2. 10% total extra mana
3. 6,000 total mana
4. level 60 using scorch (125 mana, 1.5s)
5. The model efficiency fight lasts 36 ticks, or 72 seconds (below)
6. I have now 76 mana/tick
-------------------------------

the above 5 are our basic assumptions. furthermore, I suggest that we're going in for a long haul fight where you want to maximize your mana efficiency. This means using 125 mana scorch (reduced by spirit by 25) chained in this fight. You have exactly 48 casts on this bar to deal with, taking 72 seconds, or 36 ticks. Add the mana ruby to it, and you get 13s extra or almost 7 ticks.

7. 600 mana extra can come from int (2,3)
8. 11 mana rate comes from meditation (1,6)
9. 396 mana comes from arcane meditation plus 77 mana from the extra time of the gem: 473 total. (4,5)
10. 4 extra casts of scorch occur on the extra mana taking 6 seconds, or 3 ticks (4,9)
11. The 3 extra ticks give 33 mana, for 506 mana (1, 9, 10)

The end result is 506 mana vs 600 mana. A fight with evocation will see almost twice as much.

So arcane meditation is actually going to return almost as much mana as arcane mind. For that matter, where efficiency matters, it becomes a bit under the 2% damage adds.

So hardly 'insignificant'. It plays a substantial role. For that matter, arcane meditation GIVES mana. The extra mana talent does not.

It's also important to note that when getting arcane specced up to take the end talents, you might be choosing between arcane mind and meditation. My money's on meditation.

Personally I think arcane meditation is only worth it if you've got an abundance of spirit. The good news is you can hold off your decision to get it for quite a while, then decide based on how your gear is shaping up. If you end up having upwards of 250 spirit, I'd say that this talent would be more beneficial than Arcane Focus or Subtlety.


I would also add that you may want to stress the importance of good UI management through the use of mods which are readily available (eg Flexbar). An efficient UI can be the difference between life and death in many situations, as well as generally being more pleasant to play with. Things like cycling through nearby targets are also very handy for easy polymorphing.

[Skandranon]

Rank 6 of the spell will absorb 570 damage in exchange for 1140 mana plus the 140 mana it costs to cast the shield.  Improving it with talents yields 997 damage absorbed in exchange for 1995 mana (+140 again).  Because the spell is instant cast with no recast, the real benefit comes from not having to drop 140 mana to recast it.  The normal mana/damage ratio when taking into account the cost of casting the spell is 2.25:1 as opposed to the talent improved ratio of 2.14:1.  This is not a particularly convincing improvement, I'd rather just refresh mana shield and spend the points elsewhere.

That's basically the argument I've already made in the unfinished second revision of the guide. I didn't do the math, and I'll include it with credit if you let me, but basically, I definitely agree that if the incentivization is only a less frequent recast, that's not particularly worth spending talent points on.

Personally I think arcane meditation is only worth it if you've got an abundance of spirit.  The good news is you can hold off your decision to get it for quite a while, then decide based on how your gear is  shaping up.  If you end up having upwards of 250 spirit, I'd say that this talent would be more beneficial than Arcane Focus or Subtlety.

Possibly. That said, some assumptions in that theoretical situation don't sit well with me. A 6000 mana pool at level 60 is a fairly hefty assumption - my level 60 mage only recently broke that barrier, and that's with Arcane Mind. Base mana at that level seems to come in around the 4000 mark. To assume 6000 without Arcane Mind and high spirit is to assume, essentially, a full set of Owl stuff and some Magister's things. Equipping like that will provide tiny stamina bonuses, making you a rather worthless AoEer. Given that a mage's primary instance role is AoE, it's not a trade I'd recommend.

Still, I'll expand the discussion surrounding Meditation. Wouldn't hurt.

I would also add that you may want to stress the importance of good UI management through the use of mods which are readily available (eg Flexbar).  An efficient UI can be the difference between life and death in many situations, as well as generally being more pleasant to play with.  Things like cycling through nearby targets are also very handy for easy polymorphing.
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I would, but I must admit that I don't have the experience to write about such things. I only use one UI mod, Telos' BottomBar, and by all accounts my play is quite good. I'm not up to downloading and trying out UI mods, and I do just fine without them, so I don't think I'm qualified to add such a section.

[playingtokrush]

I would, but I must admit that I don't have the experience to write about such things.  I only use one UI mod, Telos' BottomBar, and by all accounts my play is quite good.  I'm not up to downloading and trying out UI mods, and I do just fine without them, so I don't think I'm qualified to add such a section.

Is this one that adds just another quickbar to the UI without any other kludgy extras? If so, I think this is the mod I've been looking for.

[Skandranon]

Is this one that adds just another quickbar to the UI without any other kludgy extras?  If so, I think this is the mod I've been looking for.
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That's the one. You get 24 buttons layered on top of the experience point bar, plus the option to bind them each to keys. And nothing more.

[playingtokrush]

That's the one.  You get 24 buttons layered on top of the experience point bar, plus the option to bind them each to keys.  And nothing more.
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I just installed it and checked it out. It looks pretty nice and clean -- shouldn't slow down my framerate like some other mods I've heard about.

One last question. When a new patch comes out and you have to install the newest version of the mod, does it reset your bindings? That would kind of suck.

[Skandranon]

One last question.  When a new patch comes out and you have to install the newest version of the mod, does it reset your bindings?  That would kind of suck.
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I don't install the latest version of it. I just open up the .toc file in Notepad and change the version line. Doing that keeps the bindings. I can't say what reinstalling might do - I've never done that.

[Serendipity]

That's basically the argument I've already made in the unfinished second revision of the guide.  I didn't do the math, and I'll include it with credit if you let me, but basically, I definitely agree that if the incentivization is only a less frequent recast, that's not particularly worth spending talent points on.

Yeah I know, I just had the maths lying around and thought it would be nice to destroy the talent a little more thoroughly. If you want to stick it in, just stick it in there, no need to credit me.

Possibly.  That said, some assumptions in that theoretical situation don't sit well with me.  A 6000 mana pool at level 60 is a fairly hefty assumption - my level 60 mage only recently broke that barrier, and that's with Arcane Mind.  Base mana at that level seems to come in around the 4000 mark.  To assume 6000 without Arcane Mind and high spirit is to assume, essentially, a full set of Owl stuff and some Magister's things.  Equipping like that will provide tiny stamina bonuses, making you a rather worthless AoEer.  Given that a mage's primary instance role is AoE, it's not a trade I'd recommend.

True, it's not a talent I am personally going for, but I can see how it might be advantageous for heavy spirit builds. If you're going for 31 arcane and are looking for a place to drop a few of the 8 spare points you have to spend on less than brilliant talents, this is certainly a contender.

Still, I'll expand the discussion surrounding Meditation.  Wouldn't hurt.

Cool.

I would, but I must admit that I don't have the experience to write about such things.  I only use one UI mod, Telos' BottomBar, and by all accounts my play is quite good.  I'm not up to downloading and trying out UI mods, and I do just fine without them, so I don't think I'm qualified to add such a section.
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I like to try out a bunch of different mods, if you like, I could eventually come up with a brief guide to the most essential ones that you could just amend to the end. If you feel that it's necessary that is.

[Malakar]

I figure linen and wool will be easily buyable when I'm level 60.
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Also easily farmed thanks to mage AOEs.

As for tailors, I find first aid to be more beneficial and easier to train than tailoring, so I'd do first aid first, then tailoring... but my mount would come before all trade skills.

[Malakar]

Having neglected wands almost entirely on my mage, I took the opportunity to test the skillups.

At level 48, with a max skill of 240, I started off with a skill of 14. Using it on lvl 40-42 mobs, I got up to 114, gaining a skill point at every single attempt. So it's definitely different now.

[Quark]

Here I submit myself to the slings and arrows of outrageous Lurkers.
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Here I humbly request a retest of Arcane Meditation when the patch with Mage Armor is released. If I have enough time and money for respecs, I may try it with Mitzy myself, but I'd love to see how Arcane Meditation stacks with Mage Armor for high level mages.

It might bring about a desire for two sets of equipment - one for where you plan on doing solo or AoE, and one for where you are in a party not using AoE (and thus don't need as much stam).

Since Magistar's is apparantly also switching up some of it's +spi for +sta, that might really become the jack-of-all-trades armor set for Mages.

[kandrathe]

Um...wow.  Eesh.  I mean...whoa.

Wouldn't mind some higher damage.  Or a friendlier Frost Nova cooldown.  Other stuff, well...sounds just a little too good.
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I watched a level 30 mage take on and beat all comers of a similiar level yesterday at the crossroads. He did not face any hunters or shamans, but was soundly beating the 20 or so rogues, warriors, or druids he faced without taking any appreciable damage himself. His technique was to use frost nova, blink and some running to keep away from close combat, and then spam arcane missiles whenever he could. He was heavily tilted toward arcane.

[Carl]

Excellent guide that's really helped me with my mage as a first time player.

One thing that I have really noticed so far (level 34) is the huge difference in playstyle for a mage between playing solo and playing in a group (even a group of 2). Maybe you could add a section on whcih characters are good for a mage to group with and how to play when grouped with different characters? I've noticed a lot of stuff myself and will try to put some of it here when I can.

When solo your all about unleashing your damage as fast as you can to kill the monster before it kills you. Then you drink and move on to the next one. Managing to pull the monsters one at a time is also really important.

In a group its completely different. You want to do damage but at the same time you don't want to draw aggro. Scorch is amazingly useful here whereas you hardly ever use it solo.

The second thing about group play is knowing when you do want to draw aggro, such as when a mob is stuck on your priest or your tank is taking too much damage. Then you draw one mob to you and finish him off much as you would solo.

One thing that is difficult about party play that I have found caused me more deaths than any other is joing a group quite a bit lower level than me. Sometimes you have to do this to find a group. Unfortunately the others being lower level will find it really hard to keep aggro away from you and this can make life quite difficult.

Anyway got to go now will try to post some more later, thanks for the guide :-)

[Alram]

Here I submit myself to the slings and arrows of outrageous Lurkers.
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Polymorph
This is an issue I have run into in parties, and it was more of an issue with Shadowfang as there were many mobs that were immune to poly. If I poly before the pull then I draw all the aggro. On the other hand if I wait for the pull then the poly arrives after the mob is close and somebody often hits it breaking the poly. Obviously the best solution is good communication with the puller; he could start the pull right after I start the poly and I could "mark" the one I intend to poly prior to the poly with Detect Magic. What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions on how to address the issue? I might add that 1 problem I have is that I'm a verrryy slow typist, and typing before every pull is laborious for me.

[Skandranon]

Polymorph
This is an issue I have run into in parties, and it was more of an issue with Shadowfang as there were many mobs that were immune to poly. If I poly before the pull then I draw all the aggro. On the other hand if I wait for the pull then the poly arrives after the mob is close and somebody often hits it breaking the poly. Obviously the best solution is good communication with the puller; he could start the pull right after I start the poly and I could "mark" the one I intend to poly prior to the poly with Detect Magic. What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions on how to address the issue? I might add that 1 problem I have is that I'm a verrryy slow typist, and typing before every pull is laborious for me.
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The Detect Magic mark is fairly common for mages if they're the only one in a pickup group. However, the best way to make sure that crowd control isn't interrupted is simply to call your target before every pull. It can get repetitive, but ensures that everything goes as smoothly as possible. Alternatively, get into a pattern: i.e., the rightmost polymorphable mob, or the one furthest away from the party, and inform your party members.

[mjdoom]

Alternatively, get into a pattern: i.e., the rightmost polymorphable mob, or the one furthest away from the party, and inform your party members.
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This is in general an excellent idea. I've never played a mage but just the other day I was on a Scarlet Strat raid with two mages. It was understood that one was polying the leftmost mob and one the rightmost on every 4 pull. The hunter would then mark a primary target and away we went. This means that every member of the raid will always know who is being polyed and who the primary target is. It also allows both polymorphs to go off almost simulatenously so that neither mob starts running and gets in close range to the actual battle, allowing things like cleave to be used without having to worry about breaking a polymorph.

- mjdoom

[oldmandennis]

Polymorph
This is an issue I have run into in parties, and it was more of an issue with Shadowfang as there were many mobs that were immune to poly. If I poly before the pull then I draw all the aggro. On the other hand if I wait for the pull then the poly arrives after the mob is close and somebody often hits it breaking the poly. Obviously the best solution is good communication with the puller; he could start the pull right after I start the poly and I could "mark" the one I intend to poly prior to the poly with Detect Magic. What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions on how to address the issue? I might add that 1 problem I have is that I'm a verrryy slow typist, and typing before every pull is laborious for me.
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Instead of having a button on your bar for poly, have a macro that says "Pollying %t" (double check that syntax) and does the poly.