A Guide to Mages comment thread

[Treesh]

First aid is a free profession.
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Not anymore. ;) First Aid and Cooking both cost a silver to get the apprentice training rather than the measly 10 copper that the primary skills have for apprentice. But this argument was valid until this last patch.

[Tal]

Wow!  If you have such a loathing for mages, then don't play with them.  Again, as a mage player, you've told me I must not know what I'm doing because of my chosen class.  In reality, I do exactly what you claim mages don't do.  I carry a stack, hotkeyed, of the best bandages I am capable of making.  These are applied to myself and others as the situation allows.  I also carry a couple stacks of healing potions for instant heals of my own.  If the healer in the party is able to heal me, it's appreciated but I do as much as I can to take care of myself.  If I do go down, the blame is on myself and not the healer.  Apologies are then given for letting the party down and thanks for the res if it comes.  At the very least, I would hope that you would remember those whose playing styles do fit your model and go to them when you wish to have a mage in your party.
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I second GG's post that you may be misinterpeting Mongo's post. It would appear that you both are on the same page on the role of a mage in the group. I can also say that I've partied with you and have had no issues with how you play a mage. :)

[MongoJerry]

Not anymore.  ;)  First Aid and Cooking both cost a silver to get the apprentice training rather than the measly 10 copper that the primary skills have for apprentice.  But this argument was valid until this last patch.

Oh, come off it. Stop the nitpicking. It's "free" in the sense that it doesn't prevent you from taking any other professions. The cash cost you mentioned is negligible, especially in the long run. There's no reason a level 60 mage shouldn't have a high skill level first aid.

[Skandranon]

I wanted to reach my hands into the monitor and choke him.  First aid is a free profession.  It's easy to skill up and everyone can get it.

Your analysis of First Aid is right on - for everyone except tailors. I received generous gifts of cloth from many others in the guild and I still barely managed to make it to my current tailoring level. It was owing only to a few more gifts of linen that I was able to raise my character's First Aid at all.

The problem gets worse when your character is gaining levels at a decent pace. You rapidly outgrow the older levels of cloth before you've anywhere near enough of them to cover just your tailoring, nevermind First Aid. This problem is compounded if you're an enchanter as well and have a compelling reason to tailor items that you aren't skilling up off of.

Essentially, you have to go to the auction house at some point to get the extra cloth you need for First Aid. And I'm not saying that's impossible or hard, but the "free" part of your description drops out around here. Cost conscious tailors and especially tailor/enchanters, who are money-short because of enchanting and who are saving for a mount, may find buying cloth for First Aid at the AH is an expense that can be deferred, especially considering its relative lack of usefulness until the very end game. You have a right to expect the mages in an Onyxia group to have first aid, but up until then, cut the tailors some slack.

[Treesh]

There's no reason a level 60 mage shouldn't have a high skill level first aid.
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A level 60 mage, yes, you are correct. Lower level mages, I have to disagree with you. It's more expensive now to start new characters that it was even at release, unless you know the game pretty well already. His guide isn't just for high-levels though and you do have to take into account that not everyone is 50+ yet. And skandranon already posted on the other point I was going to make - tailors.

Edit: And isn't nitpicking sort of what we are supposed to be doing when giving our feedback on the guide and comments relating to the guide? :huh:

[LochnarITB]

I received generous gifts of cloth from many others in the guild and I still barely managed to make it to my current tailoring level.  It was owing only to a few more gifts of linen that I was able to raise my character's First Aid at all.
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This is exactly the reason I wish we had a better way of sharing our material needs with others in the guild. I try to keep a list of materials for which other characters have expressed a need. However, as characters progress, I lose track of what level of materials make sense to gather and send. I have no problem taking space in inventory or spending 30c to send materials unless it ends up being materials that are just going to be tossed when they are received. Linen is an example. I was doing some low level quests to try to raise my reputation with a faction (apparently a pointless undertaking - guess I'm going to end up riding a mech-a-chicken :wacko: ). I could have gathered a couple stacks of linen but I assumed there were no characters that would want them. I certainly hope that Bliz soon comes up with some form of guild hall that offers functions such as an open access guild vault and quest matching. With a game that is so obviously meant to be party heavy, guild membership is almost a given and Bliz needs to offer better support and functionality for those guilds.

[MongoJerry]

A level 60 mage, yes, you are correct.  Lower level mages, I have to disagree with you.  It's more expensive now to start new characters that it was even at release, unless you know the game pretty well already.  His guide isn't just for high-levels though and you do have to take into account that not everyone is 50+ yet.  And skandranon already posted on the other point I was going to make - tailors.

Setting tailors aside, which is really it's own subject ("How to get all that cloth!"), first aide makes complete sense for a mage to focus on. Back when you could drink in combat, the standard practice in the middle of a battle for mages was to frost nova and/or sheep a mob or mobs, eat and drink, stand up, and blast away. Well, they can't do that anymore, but it makes sense to have first aid bandages ready for similar cases. Let's say a mage is fighting two mobs. The mage sheeps one mob, fights the second, and takes lots of damage. It just makes sense for a mage to have a supply of bandages ready to heal him or herself before taking on the second mob. You can't eat or drink in combat like you used to, but mages are still the class most capable of taking breaks in the middle of a fight, and it makes sense for mages to be able to take advantage of those breaks.

Incidentally, I'm actually going to go with tailoring myself, but have chosen to start with skinning just to make a little money at the auction house first. Later on, I'll get all the cloth I want and go from 0 tailoring to high 200's in a day type of thing. I figure linen and wool will be easily buyable when I'm level 60. Then, in addition to the supply of silk I already have in the bank, I can farm all the silk I want from those apprentices of Herod in the Scarlet Monastery. The only tricky part is getting enough mageweave, which I have been storing away as I can. I might have to farm or buy mageweave for a bit to bridge the gap between silk and runecloth. Once I get to runecloth, though, I'll be able to sale quickly to the high levels of tailoring. The amount of runecloth you can get in high level instances is insane.

[Treesh]

Setting tailors aside, which is really it's own subject ("How to get all that cloth!"), first aide makes complete sense for a mage to focus on.  Back when you could drink in combat, the standard practice in the middle of a battle for mages was to frost nova and/or sheep a mob or mobs, eat and drink, stand up, and blast away.  Well, they can't do that anymore, but it makes sense to have first aid bandages ready for similar cases.  Let's say a mage is fighting two mobs.  The mage sheeps one mob, fights the second, and takes lots of damage.  It just makes sense for a mage to have a supply of bandages ready to heal him or herself before taking on the second mob.  You can't eat or drink in combat like you used to, but mages are still the class most capable of taking breaks in the middle of a fight, and it makes sense for mages to be able to take advantage of those breaks.
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You're missing my point. Yes it makes sense for mages to have first aid. It makes sense for everyone to have at least some first aid. For lower level characters, it can be difficult to get the money to train up the secondary professions in addition to training their primary professions and all their class skills and equip themselves. First aid is a little easier to do since there aren't that many blueprints compared to alchemy or tailoring or leatherworking, but all those little expenses add up. Yes, I'm sure in the end game it all balances out and then you don't have to worry as much about money, but in order to get to the end game, you have to play through the low and middle game.

[Alloraan]

Hi there, I play on the PvP server as a mage, 50 and counting. I have a few comments, don't take this as a flame or anything. Just an opinion.

"Improved Frost Nova
1 point – Decreases Frost Nova cooldown by 2 seconds.
2 points – Decreases Frost Nova cooldown by 4 seconds.

Two points buys the cooldown of Nova down from 25 seconds to 21 seconds. The impact will be assuredly minimal. Still, you’ll have to take this if your frost build includes Shatter. By itself, it’s a junk talent."

On paper it seems junk but in pvp situations 4 seconds a long time, 4 seconds worth of distance, especially if they're slow which gives plenty of time to cast another spell. ie: another frostbolt.

"Wand Specialization
1 point – Increases your wand damage by 5%.
2 points – Increases your wand damage by 10%.
3 points – Increases your wand damage by 15%.
4 points – Increases your wand damage by 20%.
5 points – Increases your wand damage by 25%.

At first glance, this talent doesn’t look very good. And, well, it really isn’t. Most of the time you’ll be casting spells – wands are just going to be finishers, if you bother training them to the point where you can hit something with them. However, it’s not all bad. A cursory examination of the wands in the game shows that most tend to have somewhere around 1.5x to double the damage of similar-level bows and guns, for the reason that casters’ agility (and therefore, ranged attack power), won’t be very high, and because you can’t enhance wands’ damage with ammo. It could be made to work, but I’d advise putting points elsewhere."

Wand DPS is bugged I believe, if it works as (min+max)/speed like other ranged weapons. And depending on lag or not, you almost will never shoot your wand bolt after bolt anyhow. Wands give good bonuses and when you're low on mana, it is a good finisher indeed.


Most of your talent opinions are fairly accurate and are equal to mine as well.

My ideal talent build is:

Improved Fireball Rank 5
Impact Rank 5
Ignite Rank 5
Flame Throwing Rank 2
Incinerate Rank 1
Pyroblast Rank 1
Burning Soul Rank 3
Critical Mass Rank 3
Fire Power Rank 5
Fire Total: 30

Arcane Subtlety Rank 3
Improved Arcane Missiles Rank 5
Arcane Concentration Rank 5
Improved Arcane Explosion Rank 5
Improved Counterspell Rank 2
Presence of Mind Rank 1
Arcane Total: 21

Again I play on a PvP server so at any moment I could be attacked from behind and when I'm not looking and insta-cast spells are important. But being attacked from behind isn't a good thing so you have to have control. Even if things go wrong (rule number 1) You have presence of mind depending on how much health the guy attacking you has (usually full) so that you can either a) insta-pyro or B) insta-poly so that you can set up to you own leisure and work your way from there.

Blizzard is good in group PvP situations especially with the snare effect. 15% of normal speed is HUGE especially in a gigantic raid. Flamestrike has VERY little use in game. I don't think I've ever casted it for anything other then looks (and it doesn't look as good as the WarIII version either). And in instances IAE is the _BEST_ spell when surrounded by non elite mobs, such as the scarabs in Zul'Farrak, but only when your healers are willing to devote all their mana to heal you (since you are wearing paper after all) Your dps can actually break 1500 or so depending on how many mobs your tank rounds up for you. I personally hit 1675.38 with arcane explosion in maraudon when we aggroed up roughly 25 larvae.

Opinion: Your talent build shouldn't start with arcane missiles because it's not totally worth it at such low levels. You can usually finish mobs in 2-4 fireballs or 3-5 frostbolts up to around level 20. Around level 20 is when you notice the downtime increasing and you have to sit and drink more often. Around level 20 or so, you should consider getting improved arcane missiles and the clearcasting proc. Improved arcane explosion isn't needed until the higher level instances, Zul'Farrak or higher so you can plan that in around level 30+. However plan as you like because you should plan your talents around your playstyle and not conform to the 'ideal' build. Although some talents are seriously RECOMMENDED.

You should also let'em know bout the gigantic downtime we get starting at roughly level 35-50 ;)

[LochnarITB]

And in instances IAE is the _BEST_ spell when surrounded by non elite mobs
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I love my insta-cast IAE. I use it all the time in solo PvE. It is great for popping runners when they try to get away. One or two casts as you follow and down they go.

You should also let'em know bout the gigantic downtime we get starting at roughly level 35-50 ;)

I'm glad to see you say this. I was starting to think Lochnar (lvl 43) needed to start an Azeroth chapter of WA (Wateraholics Anonymous). I even made a macro for party play "/p hold up - sucking suds".

[MongoJerry]

I even made a macro for party play "/p hold up - sucking suds".

You could use the already implemented /oom (out-of-mana) emote. This has the benefit of a voice emote so that people are less likely to not notice it. I use /oom all the time as a priest player in parties.

[Alloraan]

I don't stop attacking when i'm out of mana, I just pathetically hit things with my wand. I very rarely run out of mana since I use scorch alot to proc clearcast before I fire off a major spell, arcane missiles, fireblast, fireball, etc

Edit: I need to learn how to use these boards, this was supposed to be a reply to MongoJerry's 'oom reply'

[Skandranon]

First off, welcome to the Lounge, and thanks for commenting. While I may not necessarily agree with you, I do appreciate the comments.

On paper it seems junk but in pvp situations 4 seconds a long time, 4 seconds worth of distance, especially if they're slow which gives plenty of time to cast another spell. ie: another frostbolt.

That would be more relevant if it extended the freeze time by four seconds. I'm not so sure that four more seconds of cooldown's going to help. If you've fired your nova, it means that your opponent is in melee range. Your first spell is likely to break the ice, so it'll last up to 3 seconds (Improved Fireball). Somehow I don't think the fight's going to last another 10 seconds after your enemy is meleeing you, much less another 18. Furthermore, the only way in which it makes a difference is if you'll survive the next 18 seconds but not four more after that. All the PvP encounters I've been in have been very fast, certainly under thirty seconds in length, and Frost Novas aren't cast until the battle is more than half over.

Incinerate Rank 1 
Burning Soul Rank 3

This is the only way your build differs from the one I laid out. In essence, you're passing on Blast Wave. I can understand that, given that its 45-second cooldown is quite abnormally long, but I don't quite understand why you've chosen to take Burning Soul.

Again I play on a PvP server so at any moment I could be attacked from behind and when I'm not looking and insta-cast spells are important. But being attacked from behind isn't a good thing so you have to have control. Even if things go wrong (rule number 1) You have presence of mind depending on how much health the guy attacking you has (usually full) so that you can either a) insta-pyro or B) insta-poly so that you can set up to you own leisure and work your way from there.

Presence of Mind is a great deal more important in such situations, it's true. In fact, I'd advise at least a 21 Arcane build for anyone on a PvP server for just that reason.

Blizzard is good in group PvP situations especially with the snare effect. 15% of normal speed is HUGE especially in a gigantic raid. Flamestrike has VERY little use in game. I don't think I've ever casted it for anything other then looks (and it doesn't look as good as the WarIII version either). And in instances IAE is the _BEST_ spell when surrounded by non elite mobs, such as the scarabs in Zul'Farrak, but only when your healers are willing to devote all their mana to heal you (since you are wearing paper after all) Your dps can actually break 1500 or so depending on how many mobs your tank rounds up for you. I personally hit 1675.38 with arcane explosion in maraudon when we aggroed up roughly 25 larvae.

I can't speak for mass PvP situations, never having been in one. That said, in PvE situations Flamestrike clearly has more utility than Blizzard. Against masses of nonelites, Flamestrike is fine as an opener, just like the use of Fireball against single mobs. And just as you switch to Missiles as single mobs approach, one can switch to IAE as the crowd of nonelites approaches. IAE is like Missiles in the sense that it has the best DPS but not the best single-hit damage, and single-hit damage is key for openers. Blizzard, notably, does damage once-per-second the same way IAE does, so they overlap a little in a way that Flamestrike doesn't.

Opinion: Your talent build shouldn't start with arcane missiles because it's not totally worth it at such low levels. You can usually finish mobs in 2-4 fireballs or 3-5 frostbolts up to around level 20.
You should also let'em know bout the gigantic downtime we get starting at roughly level 35-50 ;)
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It's true that you can finish mobs with some more fireballs or frostbolts, but without IAM's uninterruptability, it's going to take longer, hurt more, and cost more mana. I just don't find the benefits of Improved Fireball/Frostbolt great enough to bother taking IAM second. With maxed IAM, most problems from 14-25 can be dealt with just by chaining missiles. I've tried starting with each of the three and the one I had the least trouble with was IAM, so I'll continue to recommend it.

As for the downtime...yeah, I know. I point out that mages do need patience. Long thirty-second sits, and doubledrinking when you're almost-but-not-quite at the next level of water, and so on and so forth. There isn't much to say about it, though, except that it's both necessary and annoying.

[LochnarITB]

You could use the already implemented /oom (out-of-mana) emote.
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Of course I could, but that would be boring. Also, if I'm yelling out that I'm out of mana, it not only warns the baddies in the next room but also tells them to squash the squishy guy because he's helpless. We need to be vewwy vewwy quiet. ;)

[TheWombat]

Here I submit myself to the slings and arrows of outrageous Lurkers.
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To echo those that have gone before, well done. Very informative and believe it or not, concise--being a Mage isn't that simple a thing, and you've managed to cover a lot of ground in comparatively few words.

I do have a few comments. One is that I tend to value AoE a bit more than you do. Then again, I play 80% as a duo with my wife, a Shadow Priest, and 20% with guild groups (The Basin). Rarely if ever do I solo. I'm very often in a situation where the Priest or a tank is surrounded by mobs, in which case AoE is very nice. Sort of a variation on the rack 'em and stack 'em PBAOE of DAOC. Doesn't quite work that way in WoW, true, but more often than you might think. Of course the preferred way is to minimize adds and fight one at a time, but when you're in areas with equal or +1-3 level con mobs that agro from across the ocean, the sheep doesn't always cut it. In this context Blizzard > Flamestrike IMO. Blizzard covers a wider area, and the slowing effects are very very useful. And Cone of Cold is a very, very good spell when duoing. When you have three mobs on your partner and you can blast each one for 2/3 the damage of a Frostbolt, then hit Cold Snap and do it again, all without much risk of agro or breaking sheep (if you are careful), it's pretty effective. But yes, it eats mana and lag plays hell with pointing in the right direction....

Second, I'll echo the idea that playing on a PvP server changes some things. While your overall scheme is great, there are little nuances that are different when all your questing after level 20 is in contested areas. Instant cast spells are vital, and Frost Nova is your friend. Its utility is far, far greater than it might seem. Often, it's the only way you'll have time to get off any shots at the (inevitable) attacking Rogue. Counterspell takes on even more utility, against opposing casters (who often have no clue how to deal with it), as does Blink, which simply confuses people to no end. Also, I would humbly suggest that mana conservation is a bit more vital in PvP than in PvE, in that your ability to run and reload as it were is much, much less against other PCs than against mobs. You also have to take into account psychology--players faced with a Mage who simply will not stop casting on them often lose their nerve. Mobs, of course, will not.

[Treesh]

It's nice to read the differences between the PvP and the PvE game but Skan specifically said in the intro post to the guide that it's for PvE only and not for PvP. I still like reading about the PvP though. :)

This is a PvE guide.  Nothing against PvP, but I’m not writing for that.
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[TheWombat]

It's nice to read the differences between the PvP and the PvE game but Skan specifically said in the intro post to the guide that it's for PvE only and not for PvP.  I still like reading about the PvP though. :)
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True, which is why no criticism is intended, only a suggestion of some of the nuances that exist between the two types of server. Which, incidentally, points out how tough it is to do a "universal" guide, given what are IMO some very real if often subtle differences between PvP and PvE builds.

[Treesh]

Which, incidentally, points out how tough it is to do a "universal" guide, given what are IMO some very real if often subtle differences between PvP and PvE builds.
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Oh absolutely. :) Hats off to Skan. Again.

[Skandranon]

To echo those that have gone before, well done. Very informative and believe it or not, concise--being a Mage isn't that simple a thing, and you've managed to cover a lot of ground in comparatively few words.

Thanks for reading.

I'm very often in a situation where the Priest or a tank is surrounded by mobs, in which case AoE is very nice.

Difficult to determine what you mean by "very nice" in such a situation. Damaging multiple targets is nice, but my comments on AoE spells aren't solely about the damage. The problem is massive breakouts. Now, when paired with a priest, that's not a problem. A mage and a priest falls under the category of suboptimal groups - don't mean to cast any aspersions on you, but mage plus priest isn't exactly Batman and Robin. In that case, your Ice Armour makes you the best choice to take hits, so breakouts are just fine.

In larger group situations, however, I've rarely found a group willing to help arrange threat levels so I can drop an AoE spell without getting at least two mobs' attention. Basiners, perhaps, are much more likely to do that, but even the most well-intentioned groupmates can't guarantee that any given AoE spell won't trigger any breakouts.

Blizzard covers a wider area, and the slowing effects are very very useful.

Applying a snare to a wide area is definitely useful. That said, the slowing effect is a result of Improved Blizzard, not a quality of the spell itself. My spell description sections don't address talents, which is a bit of a troublesome format that I'm more or less forced to in order to have something to say in the talents section. I certainly agree that a fully-ranked Improved Blizzard, especially one enhanced by Winter's Chill (which should really be named Even Better Improved Blizzard, given its minimal effect on other spells) is extremely powerful in the right situations.

Second, I'll echo the idea that playing on a PvP server changes some things.
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I haven't extensive experience on PvP servers, so I'll just take your word for it. My own experiences in PvP have all been very short, so I can certainly believe that instant spells are much more important.

[Skandranon]

Oh absolutely. :)  Hats off to Skan.  Again.
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:blush: