Priests: Utility of Inner Fire

[malphigian]

I've been playing around with my talent layout, and while I still plan to keep a hefty amount in shadow (flay and silence are critical skills, esp. on the PvP server), I'm trying to put together a 29 Disc/22 Shadow build. This gives me enough shadow for the aforementioned silence and flay.

The 29 points in discipline are about a few things:
-4 points in force of will (4% damage, 4% critical)
-imp mana burn
-inner focus
-10% off instants
(the rest of the discipline talents I want are already in my current 33/18 build).

Here are the builds:
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CURRENT BUILD
Discipline Talents (18 points)
# Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%.

# Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds.

# Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%.

# Martyrdom - 2/2 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain the Focused Casting effect that lasts for 6 seconds after being the victim of a critical strike. The Focused Casting effect prevents you from losing casting time when taking damage.

# Focused Casting - 1/1 point
While active, you no longer lose casting time from taking damage. Lasts 8 seconds.

# Mental Agility - 2/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 4%.

# Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by ?.

# Mental Strength - 1/5 point
Increases your maximum Mana by 2%.


Shadow Talents (33 points)

# Blackout - 5/5 points
Gives your Shadow damage spells a 10% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.

# Improved Shadow Word: Pain - 2/2 points
Increases the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell by 6 seconds.

# Shadow Focus - 4/5 points
Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spells by 8%.

# Mind Flay - 1/1 point
Assault the target's mind with Shadow energy, causing 75 damage over 3 seconds and slowing the target to 50% of their movement speed.

# Improved Psychic Scream - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Psychic Scream ability by 4 seconds.

# Improved Mind Blast - 3/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Mind Blast spell by 1.5 seconds.

# Shadow Reach - 3/3 points
Increases the range of your Shadow damage spells by 20%.

# Vampiric Embrace - 1/1 point
Afflicts your target with Shadow energy that causes all party members to be healed for 20% of any Shadow damage you deal for 1 minute.

# Silence - 1/1 point
Silence the target, preventing them from casting spells for 5 seconds.

# Shadow Weaving - 5/5 points
Your Shadow damage spells have a 100% chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage. This vulnerability increases the Shadow damage dealt to your target by 3% and lasts 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times.

# Darkness - 5/5 points
Increases your Shadow spell damage by 10%.

# Shadowform - 1/1 point
Assume a Shadowform, increasing your Shadow damage by 15% and reducing Physical damage done to you by 15%. However, you may only cast Shadow and Discipline spells while in this form.

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PROPOSED NEW BUILD
Discipline Talents (29 points)

# Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%.

# Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds.

# Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%.

# Martyrdom - 2/2 points
Gives you a 100% chance to gain the Focused Casting effect that lasts for 6 seconds after being the victim of a critical strike. The Focused Casting effect prevents you from losing casting time when taking damage.

# Focused Casting - 1/1 point
While active, you no longer lose casting time from taking damage. Lasts 8 seconds.

# Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%.

# Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by ?.

# Mental Strength - 1/5 point
Increases your maximum Mana by 2%.

# Improved Inner Fire - 3/3 points
Increases the effects of your Inner Fire spell by 45%.

# Inner Focus - 1/1 point
When activated, reduces the Mana cost of your next spell by 100% and increases its critical effect chance by 25% if it is capable of a critical effect.

# Force of Will - 4/5 points
Increases your spell damage by 4% and the critical strike chance of your offensive spells by 4%.


Shadow Talents (22 points)
# Blackout - 5/5 points
Gives your Shadow damage spells a 10% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.

# Improved Shadow Word: Pain - 2/2 points
Increases the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell by 6 seconds.

# Shadow Focus - 4/5 points
Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spells by 8%.

# Improved Mind Blast - 3/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Mind Blast spell by 1.5 seconds.

# Mind Flay - 1/1 point
Assault the target's mind with Shadow energy, causing 75 damage over 3 seconds and slowing the target to 50% of their movement speed.

# Improved Psychic Scream - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Psychic Scream ability by 4 seconds.

# Shadow Reach - 3/3 points
Increases the range of your Shadow damage spells by 20%.

# Vampiric Embrace - 1/1 point
Afflicts your target with Shadow energy that causes all party members to be healed for 20% of any Shadow damage you deal for 1 minute.

# Silence - 1/1 point
Silence the target, preventing them from casting spells for 5 seconds.

--------------------------

Basically, I'm not finding shadow form as useful as I might have hoped aside from solo. Even in 1v1 PvP it's not as great as I might have hoped.

Anyway, I'm looking for general thoughts, but also have a specific question. I'm torn whether to put those 3 points in improved inner fire or shift them mental stength for a 6% overall mana bonus.

I tend to think Inner Fire might be underrated, the talent gives an extra 400-500 armor, which works out to 4-5% damage reduction depending on base armor. Not to mention it'll make your melee actually do something when it is used (even if that is infrequent). I'm assuming that damage reduction is only on melee/physical damage, yes?

I'm mostly concerned about PvP, but group PvP as well as solo, and instance group utility is a consideration as well.

Thoughts on Inner Fire and build in general?

[Artega]

Shadowform would be a lot better if you looked like, uh, a Shadow. Instead, you look the same, except you get a slight translucency and a pansy "evil" smoke thing.

Shadowform is useful for when our priest draws too much aggro (that 15% reduction has literally saved his life when going up against the Princess), but I think Improved Inner Fire's Armor bonus would do much the same thing.

[MongoJerry]

Shadowform is useful for when our priest draws too much aggro (that 15% reduction has literally saved his life when going up against the Princess), but I think Improved Inner Fire's Armor bonus would do much the same thing.

Why is your priest getting close enough to get hit by the Princess? If it's for when your melee party is feared, then the priest can always Fade (question: Are you confusing Shadowform and Fade?). And anyway, you play horde, so you should ought to get a shaman in your party and have him or her drop a grounding totem to absorb the Princess's fear. It makes her very easy.

Also, if your priest is using shadowform in an instance party, he or she should be fired immediately.

[malphigian]

Why is your priest getting close enough to get hit by the Princess?  If it's for when your melee party is feared, then the priest can always Fade (question:  Are you confusing Shadowform and Fade?).  And anyway, you play horde, so you should ought to get a shaman in your party and have him or her drop a grounding totem to absorb the Princess's fear.  It makes her very easy.

Also, if your priest is using shadowform in an instance party, he or she should be fired immediately.
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I've used shadowform in instances when we have two priests in group, that's about it.

If you've got aggro on you and are waiting for the fade cooldown, your best bet is to bubble yourself and/or heal, depending on the damage the mob(s) are hitting you with.

[MongoJerry]

Improved Inner Fire is OK, but I can never seem to get it, because there are always other more useful talents to get. You're asking for a PvP build, so your primary concern should be damage. I don't see the purpose of getting Force of Will, when you can more directly and effectively improve your damage output by putting points in the shadow tree. Also, when I go full bore shadow spec, I don't see the point of Improved Mind Blast, since I can always fill the time between casts with Mind Flay. So, here's how I would do it:



PROPOSED BUILD
Discipline Talents (23 points)

# Unbreakable Will - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to resist Stun, Fear, and Silence effects by 15%.

# Improved Power Word: Shield - 3/3 points
Reduces the duration of your Power Word: Shield's Weakened Soul effect by 15 seconds.

# Improved Power Word: Fortitude - 2/2 points
Increases the effect of your Power Word: Fortitude spell by 30%.

# Mental Agility - 5/5 points
Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%.

# Improved Mana Burn - 2/2 points
Reduces the casting time of your Mana Burn spell by ?.

# Mental Strength - 5/5 point
Increases your maximum Mana by 10%.

# Inner Focus - 1/1 point
When activated, reduces the Mana cost of your next spell by 100% and increases its critical effect chance by 25% if it is capable of a critical effect.

Shadow Talents (28 points)
# Blackout - 5/5 points
Gives your Shadow damage spells a 10% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds.

# Improved Shadow Word: Pain - 2/2 points
Increases the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain spell by 6 seconds.

# Shadow Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces your target's chance to resist your Shadow spells by 10%.

# Mind Flay - 1/1 point
Assault the target's mind with Shadow energy, causing 75 damage over 3 seconds and slowing the target to 50% of their movement speed.

# Improved Psychic Scream - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Psychic Scream ability by 4 seconds.

# Shadow Reach - 3/3 points
Increases the range of your Shadow damage spells by 20%.

# Improved Fade - 2/2 points
Increases the duration of your Fade ability by 10 seconds. (This is an acknowledgement of instance parties. You won't have the Holy Tree's Subtlety skill, so having a 20 second Fade vs 10 second Fade will help a lot in keeping you from pulling aggro. I wish I could get Improved Fade with my holy spec'd priests).

# Vampiric Embrace - 1/1 point
Afflicts your target with Shadow energy that causes all party members to be healed for 20% of any Shadow damage you deal for 1 minute.

# Silence - 1/1 point
Silence the target, preventing them from casting spells for 5 seconds.

# Shadow Weaving - 5/5
Your shadow damage spells have a 100% change to cause your target to be vulnerable to Shadow damage. This vulnerability increases the Shadow Damage output by 3% and can stack up to 5 times (i.e. up to 15%). Lasts 15 seconds. (Note: The timer resets every time you hit the target with a shadow spell).

# Shadow Reach - 1/5 points
Increases your shadow spell damage by 2%.

Note: If you want the focused casting stuff, you can remove a few points from the added shadow damage talents. I've been debating about getting those myself. It would make it easier to cast Mind Control on people and throw them into the lava in Blackrock Mountain.

[malphigian]

Hmm, some excellent feedback. I guess I was thinking 4% damage + 4% crit compared well with Shadow Weaving, but maybe it doesn't.

Improved Fade I've been thinking a lot about, and it's probably good advice to get that for 2 measly points.

Regarding Mental Strength, does that mana bonus apply to base mana? Presumably it includes +int from items before adding bonus, but how about buffs like arcane int or potions? I'm not sure 10% of base mana at 60 would be worth the damage bonus (what, like 400 mana? so about equivalent to +12 int for 5 talent points).

I'm wondering if it's worth taking 5 points from there instead to grab Inner Focus.

Thanks for the replies.

[Artega]

In pubbies, a lot of times the DDs will not let me seal aggro before they hop in and start beating on the princess. This causes them to draw aggro, which forces the priest to start using big heals in quick succession to save their lives while I try to get aggro back. The princess then notices the priest, does her like knockback fart-wind thing, and goes towards the priest. Because I'm on the other side of the arena, and Taunt is only a few yards, the priest will generally die before I can reach him. The bubble lasts about two hits, if that, before going down, and the princess can easily get four or five hits in before I can get to him.

[malphigian]

In pubbies, a lot of times the DDs will not let me seal aggro before they hop in and start beating on the princess.  This causes them to draw aggro, which forces the priest to start using big heals in quick succession to save their lives while I try to get aggro back.  The princess then notices the priest, does her like knockback fart-wind thing, and goes towards the priest.  Because I'm on the other side of the arena, and Taunt is only a few yards, the priest will generally die before I can reach him.  The bubble lasts about two hits, if that, before going down, and the princess can easily get four or five hits in before I can get to him.
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That priest probably screwed up there, if that was the first time she charged him/her, Fade should easily have made her turn around and start laying into the others again.

[Xanthix]

That priest probably screwed up there, if that was the first time she charged him/her, Fade should easily have made her turn around and start laying into the others again.
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While it's true that a priest should keep Fade ready at all times, in the described scenario it is the nuker's fault that aggro shifted off the tank. In general if bosses are beating on the squishy casters instead of the plate-wearers, the group as a whole needs to work on aggro management.

Also, some priests like to activate Fade before going into chain-healing mode, to lower the threat on the heals they are about to let loose. This means Fade can be in cooldown if they do get aggro.

[Artega]

That priest probably screwed up there, if that was the first time she charged him/her, Fade should easily have made her turn around and start laying into the others again.
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Yeah, apparently Fade must suck horribly, because I've yet to see a pubbie ever use it.

[Treesh]

Yeah, apparently Fade must suck horribly, because I've yet to see a pubbie ever use it.
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:blink: That just amazes me. How can you not use fade? Granted, if you do things right you won't normally get aggro, but it's so darned handy to have if you do happen to pick up aggro. Some people just amaze me.

[playingtokrush]

Regarding Mental Strength, does that mana bonus apply to base mana? Presumably it includes +int from items before adding bonus, but how about buffs like arcane int or potions? I'm not sure 10% of base mana at 60 would be worth the damage bonus (what, like 400 mana? so about equivalent to +12 int for 5 talent points).
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I tested this, and talents that increase your mana pool do so after everything else is applied, including intelligence buffs. The only exception to this is gnomes' Expansive Mind racial trait. The bonus mana percentage is simply added to their base 5% bonus. Of course, this doesn't matter since you have a priest.

[MongoJerry]

Also, some priests like to activate Fade before going into chain-healing mode, to lower the threat on the heals they are about to let loose. This means Fade can be in cooldown if they do get aggro.

That's crazy. Completely and absolutely crazy. If you see a priest doing that, slap them around. Fade is for using *when* the priest has aggro -- not as some preventative measure. Fade only reduces one's aggro during the time it is up. When Fade's 10 seconds are up, the priest goes right back to having the same aggro he or she would have had. Putting it another way, there's no "memory" of Fade. Once the Fade expires, those priests who used Fade before casting heals will have the same aggro as a priest who hadn't used Fade.

Yeah, apparently Fade must suck horribly, because I've yet to see a pubbie ever use it.

:blink: Or you must play with a lot of really sucky priests. Fade is one of my favorite skills and it saves my life all the time. In the case with the Princess that you're talking about, I would let the Princess come to me, get one or two hits on me, Fade, and then Renew/bandage myself. By the time all that happens, the rest of the group should be back from their fart pushback and the warrior should be able to regain aggro.