Druid feedback

[Treesh]

Caydiem posted detailing what she's been talking about with the devs and druids.

Here is the response I’ve received from the designers after giving them your feedback.  We sat down and discussed these various points.  I’ve described what’s going to be changed where applicable and given explanations as to why aspects of the class were designed in a certain way.  I hope you find this an informative and enlightening read!


Shapeshifting to Escape Movement-Impairing Effects – What Should Work and What Shouldn’t

Many of you have expressed concern about the Shaman’s Frost Shock and the Mage’s frost spells.  The slow effect remains on a Druid even after shapeshifting.  This is not acting as intended and should be fixed in time.  The Daze effect, however, is not meant to be removed by this act.  The thought behind escaping through shapeshifting is that your physical form is difficult to hold through entangling.  The philosophy is similar with polymorph in that the Druid has greater control over his physical form and cannot be transformed against his will when in animal form.  Even with frost effects, you’re changing your shape and shaking off the frost clinging to you.  Daze, however, exists to ensure there is some risk from running away -- it is a mechanic in place for balance reasons, and no class can dispel it.  The effect is equivalent to a knock on the head and thus would not be dispelled by changing one’s form; it is a mental effect rather than a physical one.



Lack of a Focus Statistic – The Large Wardrobe Dilemma

Druids sometimes feel they need to have multiple equipment sets with different focus statistics to be effective, as there is no one obvious statistic that is the primary focus of the Druid.  This is an issue with any hybrid class, however; the Shaman faces similar choices, for example.  The problem lies in that there is no “optimal” play-style for the class; several different strategies work and work well.  I can tell you that, unlike Rogues, cat form relies on Strength more than Agility for damage.  Point for point, you’ll find your damage is aided more by enhancing Strength.  Spirit is one statistic that can be a great help for Druids or not benefit their build much at all depending on style of play; remember that mana regenerates while in beast form.  Another point, also, is that it isn’t just Druids that have to consider multiple outfits depending on the situation – many high level areas can be made easier with certain gear, and this affects everyone.

The general consensus on this issue is that it’s a natural consideration of a hybrid class.  Examine your style of play, look at what would most benefit you, and outfit your character along those lines.


Cat Claws Aren’t So Sharp – Looking at Cat Form Damage and Abilities

On the subject of animal forms, one of the top concerns of the community has been that cat form DPS is somewhat lacking past level 40 or so.  The designers acknowledge that this is a problem and they plan on adjusting the higher-level damage to be more in line with the original concept.  Keep in mind that a Druid in cat form is not supposed to have roughly the same DPS as a similarly-leveled Rogue; however, it should improve from its current incarnation.

One of the changes planned is the addition of a direct-damage finishing move.  This should help the Druid cat form significantly.


The Ups and Downs of the Feral Combat Talent Tree

When examining the Druid talent trees, the Feral Combat tree has been noted to be somewhat lackluster in comparison to Balance and Restoration, especially concerning the one-point abilities (Feral Charge, Feline Swiftness and Primal Instinct).  Naturally the task of designing a single tree to enhance what are essentially two mini-classes of the Druid isn’t easy.  It’s important not to favor one form over the other in the creation of such talents, which is why there are three one-point talents in this tree alone: one for bear, one for cat, and one for all.  Now, that said, the designers are aware that it’s not the most popular of talent builds to follow, and so they will be taking a good look at the talent tree with the intention of improving it where they can.  The planned enhancements to the forms should hopefully boost the number of Druids staying with this tree, also…

Speaking of enhancements to the forms, I feel this is a good time to mention the new, upcoming Bear Form ability currently being worked on that causes rage generated to heal the Druid instead of actually generating rage.

As a side note, some of you noted that there are form-based talents in the other trees and have questioned why they are not in the Feral Combat tree.  The reasoning behind these choices is primarily that Druids are meant to use their forms, regardless of their talent build.  Those talents are there to encourage you to do so – and to give benefits in that regard – no matter your specialization.


Rebirth – Its Purpose and the Myth of “Wipe Recovery”

When it comes to filling the primary healer role, many Druids are concerned that Rebirth does not help in wipe recovery, and thus they are less desirable in groups.  The kicker is this: technically, Priests do not have “wipe recovery” either when they’re alone, and yet they’re also primary healers.  The ability to recover from a complete wipe (i.e. everyone is dead) is given to Shaman primarily; Paladins and Warlocks can also aid in wipe recovery combined with a resurrecting class (or engineer with jumper cables, even).  The Druid is not meant to fill the “wipe recovery” requirement.

However, what Rebirth can do is prevent a wipe.  Having someone critical die mid-fight can be devastating, but bringing them back can turn the tide and give you that extra edge to win.  Of course, in order for this to be true, the resurrection timer must no longer affect this spell, and that is indeed going to take place.  Once the change is made, your target should be able to come back to life immediately.  We are also reducing the mana cost of this spell line so it should be more viable in combat.  We hope that these changes will help Rebirth’s utility in combat and make Druids more desirable in groups and raids.


Hurricane – It Hurts Being the Eye of the Storm

The channeling aspect of the Hurricane spell has met with some unpopularity in the Druid community.  The spell was designed with channeling in mind – its previous casting type was a bug.  The way it worked in its bugged form, it was comparable to the damage dealt by the Mage.  The Druid is not meant to be strong in dealing area-of-effect damage, and the fact that Hurricane was nearly as good as a core AE spell of the Mage – the class that does specialize in such damage – was a balance problem.

The spell is not meant to be used as a strong solo spell.  There are group situations, however, where there’s no such thing as too much area-of-effect damage.  Many high-level instances have areas where it’s ideal to whip out a spell such as this; it is meant to be situational, however.  Mind you, the developers will be watching the relative popularity of the spell and how often it’s used; for now, however, it is going to remain in its current form.


Why Can’t I Root? – The Strangest Trees Grow in Azeroth

One of the longest and loudest laments of the Druid has been the inability to use Entangling Roots (and by extension, Nature’s Grasp) indoors.  I discussed this with the designers, but their stance is firm; this will remain an outdoors-only spell.

The designers want to keep crowd control limited and specialized.  The content of the world is balanced with crowd control spells in mind, depending on the type of monster and the area in which they dwell.  Root does not discriminate between monster types, and as such it is very powerful outdoors.  Outdoor content is balanced with root in mind, as are “outdoor” flagged instances such as Zul’Farrak.  Adding the ability to root indoors would call for a great deal of rebalancing indoor content, as now they would have to account for one creature possibly being rooted in addition to all other forms of crowd control.  It would also give Druids more crowd control power than they are intended to have.

As I’m sure you know, though, the Spider Belt was indeed changed to have a 30-minute cooldown, which should help somewhat on the PvP side of the Druid game.


More to Come!

These were the top concerns I drew from the feedback you posted, and I hope you find this information satisfactory.  I am not abandoning this forum now that this post is done, however – please, let me know what else you’re concerned about that I did not cover, or what new issues have arisen from the information listed, and I’ll do my best to follow up.  Thank you again for all your wonderful feedback, and know that you are heard!

[Bun-Bun]

Caydiem posted  detailing what she's been talking about with the devs and druids.
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Sounds fine by me. All I was wanting was a DD cat finisher so all those combo points weren't wasted. A bit more cat damage won't hurt either.

While I would like some mechanism to give a primary stat, I'll just have to keep a bag full of feral gear. :)

[Artega]

Caydiem posted  detailing what she's been talking about with the devs and druids.
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Caydiem's a chick? :blink:

Too bad the response to Warriors wasn't this organized. I'd still like for Hurricane to be a cast spell (kinda like the Druid's Hurricane in LoD), but they explained why they won't be doing that.

[Sir_Die_alot]

We protested, just not with mass gnomes. :)

There was one thing I was not fond of and that is a bear form heal. I would much prefer swipe to work more like cleave (right now it is just unparalleled suckage) or a new ability altogether so fighting as a bear doesn't consist of:

normal attack-normal attack-maul-normal attack-normal attack-maul-normal attack-normal attack-maul

Healing in bear form just doesn't seem to keep with the class's alternate natures. I like the shift-heal-reshifts I sometimes do. It breaks up the current dullness that is otherwise being a bear druid. Give the rage heals to warriors, they need something to help them solo and this would be perfect.

[Artega]

What's this rage-healing all about? How would it be activated? How much healing are we talking about? Why should I dump my spare rage into negligible heals versus a more powerful Execute?

I don't think you're gonna want Swipe to be more like the Rage-expensive, low-output Cleave. Not unless they're gonna increase Cleave's damage output significantly, anyway.

As far as healing would go, it would make sense for some injuries to be healed while shifting shapes.

[Sir_Die_alot]

What's this rage-healing all about?  How would it be activated?  How much healing are we talking about?  Why should I dump my spare rage into negligible heals versus a more powerful Execute?

Why would my bear want to do the same, especially considering he has multiple different healing spells which a warrior lacks. Besides you aren't going to be using execute if you are above a certain threshhold percentage of your target's hitpoints. You are trying to argue this point with me: your warrrior needs this ability less than my bear does. Consider the healing spells of a druid before arguing that.

I don't think you're gonna want Swipe to be more like the Rage-expensive, low-output Cleave.  Not unless they're gonna increase Cleave's damage output significantly, anyway.

I can tell you have not had much experience with a bear druid, if any at all by this one. Swipe costs the same rage as cleave. And if you think cleave has a low damage output, try a skill that uses a flat number damage rather than including your melee damage. That not bad enough? Swipe damage is also reduced by your target's armor, can miss, be dodged, parried, and blocked. Maybe half the time I do use this (which is very rare) do I even manage to cause damage (which is usually in the 30s-40s, with a rank 4 ability) to all 3 targets. Swipe at it's very best is an aggro holding ability, and it sucks at doing that.

By comparison I've found with my warrior when I'm tanking 2 instance mobs that building enough rage for cleave is easy. As for cleave being a bad damage skill? Remember it's to 2 targets, it's an effective doubling of damage/swing. Even more past rank 1. Again to compair, swipe is more like spreading my total damage to 3 targets (when everything goes right anyway).

As far as healing would go, it would make sense for some injuries to be healed while shifting shapes.

Did you read the linked to post at all? It's a heal that costs rage, not a heal that comes from shapeshifting. IMO: dumb. Especially for a class with healing spells as good as the druid has. If I'm shifting shapes, hopefully I healed before then. If I'm playing tank for a group, it would be wise to have someone else handle healing.

[Artega]

Why would my bear want to do the same, especially considering he has multiple different healing spells which a warrior lacks. Besides you aren't going to be using execute if you are above a certain threshhold percentage of your target's hitpoints. You are trying to argue this point with me: your warrrior needs this ability less than my bear does. Consider the healing spells of a druid before arguing that.

I'm not arguing. I'm ASKING what this rage-heal is about. The OP didn't do a very good job of describing it. I doubt I'd use it, because if it was a significant amount of healing, we'd be overpowered. I'd rather squeeze in another MS or Sunder before the Execute than a heal for 50 HP.

Speaking of enhancements to the forms, I feel this is a good time to mention the new, upcoming Bear Form ability currently being worked on that causes rage generated to heal the Druid instead of actually generating rage.

The way the OP states it, it's sounding like it's an activated ability. You activate it, and you gain HP (as though you were stealing HP with your attack) instead of Rage with your normal attacks. The way you're describing makes it sounds as if it's an activated ability that instantly converts X Rage into Y HP. Where'd you reach this conclusion from?

I can tell you have not had much experience with a bear druid, if any at all by this one. Swipe costs the same rage as cleave. And if you think cleave has a low damage output, try a skill that uses a flat number damage rather than including your melee damage. That not bad enough? Swipe damage is also reduced by your target's armor, can miss, be dodged, parried, and blocked. Maybe half the time I do use this (which is very rare) do I even manage to cause damage (which is usually in the 30s-40s, with a rank 4 ability) to all 3 targets. Swipe at it's very best is an aggro holding ability, and it sucks at doing that.

Swipe is also INSTANT, not Next Melee. This makes a HUGE difference in Rage cost. Swipe's Rage cost is 20. Cleave's is also 20. But Cleave replaces a normal attack, meaning it costs the stated 20 Rage, plus whatever Rage that normal attack would have generated (anywhere from 4-10 Rage, depending on weapon setup and talents.) Swipe would be crazily overpowered if it was anywhere near Cleave's already low damage output.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I'm not arguing.  I'm ASKING what this rage-heal is about.  The OP didn't do a very good job of describing it.  I doubt I'd use it, because if it was a significant amount of healing, we'd be overpowered.  I'd rather squeeze in another MS or Sunder before the Execute than a heal for 50 HP.
The way the OP states it, it's sounding like it's an activated ability.  You activate it, and you gain HP (as though you were stealing HP with your attack) instead of Rage with your normal attacks.  The way you're describing makes it sounds as if it's an activated ability that instantly converts X Rage into Y HP.  Where'd you reach this conclusion from?

The same place you did. The ambigious statement "Speaking of enhancements to the forms, I feel this is a good time to mention the new, upcoming Bear Form ability currently being worked on that causes rage generated to heal the Druid instead of actually generating rage." Reguardless of the particulars, it works by turning rage into hitpoints. For a druid ability IMO: dumb. For a warrior who has no combat heal except potions, it has some merrit. How much would depend on how much life and how much this negated a healer. I'm not saying it's a good idea definantly add it to warriors, I'm saying it's one that goes better on a warrior than it does a druid so give the druid something else.

Swipe is also INSTANT, not Next Melee.  This makes a HUGE difference in Rage cost.  Swipe's Rage cost is 20.  Cleave's is also 20.  But Cleave replaces a normal attack, meaning it costs the stated 20 Rage, plus whatever Rage that normal attack would have generated (anywhere from 4-10 Rage, depending on weapon setup and talents.)  Swipe would be crazily overpowered if it was anywhere near Cleave's already low damage output.

Let me put this in more realitive terms. Imagine thunderclap did not slow attack speed and was just a damage ability. Would you say it was fine and in no need of beefing up because it did not use your next attack? Because when you compair the effective damages of the 2 abilities (remember, swipe is blocked, parried, dodged, and affected by armor) they are about the same damage wise.

[Malakar]

All I was wanting was a DD cat finisher so all those combo points weren't wasted.
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Same here. I might actually log on my druid once this gets patched. :)

[DarkCrown]

Caydiem posted  detailing what she's been talking about with the devs and druids.
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I'm very excited about seeing a DD finisher for the cat. I think this is a much needed change. But for high level play I think the big news is the change to Rebirth.

Right now druids get invited on high level raids to do two things: cast Mark of the Wild and provide some secondary healing. Given the 8 debuff limit on mobs, no one wants to see a Moonfire or Faerie Fire in Molten Core. If the Rebirth is changed so that it works reliably (as it should) and doesn't take a huge chunk of your mana pool, it has the potential to prevent a total wipe. Every time I've cast it to try to save the party I've gotten a silly 3 minute timer and a "Nice try" from my intended target.

-DarkCrown