OK, is this really an issue?

[DeeBye]

Try something like:
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Those are interesting articles you linked to. I've always been looking for a reliable non-biased comparison that charts homicide per capita versus gun ownership per capita (the .pdf you linked to shows homicide versus homicide with guns -- not the same thing). I've never found one that wasn't completely biased one way or the other.

[Guest]

I probably wouldnt let my kid play an FPS(if I had a kid).

I dont think they are very dangerous for kids. But then I also dont think reading Playboy is very dangerous, but I wouldnt let my kid read it either.
I wouldnt be upset played one somewhere, but I wouldnt be condoning it either.




FPS's dont make people violent.
But they do dull or remove our instict to not shoot/kill people. The US military uses them for exactly that.
A killer still has to conciously decide to be a murder, but conditioning can breaks that last barrier that can stop people from killing.

[DeeBye]

I probably wouldnt let my kid play an FPS(if I had a kid).
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I don't want to be a dick or anything, but do you ever preview and edit your posts?

I wouldnt be upset played one somewhere, but I wouldnt be condoning it either.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

[SwissMercenary]

I tend to stick to the opinion that such "Conditioning", unless specifically directed towards making a person an effective killer is nigh-irrelevant to a person mature enough to understand a distinction between the (Albeit black and white) "Right and Wrong".

Or, at least, I must say that after playing Doom at the age of... 6... Or so, that I've turned out quite allright - I personally have a very low tolerance for Real Life ™ violence. Somehow, I don't think that shooting up various characters in the games that I've played since then has played too much of a role in my childhood (Poor grooming habbits put aside.)

<Insert jest about violent impulses built up over ten years released in a violent outburst here>

[Occhidiangela]

I don't want to be a dick or anything, but do you ever preview and edit your posts?
I have no idea what you mean by that.
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Brother Dee:

If he uses Preview, he does so rarely, as I am sure you have noted previously in reading posts presented in standard Ghostiger form. What your post has done is given him an opportunity to complain about how he is treated here by regulars, which I hope he has the good taste not to, or to respond with a comment regarding male members: an opening you provided him in your disclaimer about what you are not trying to be.

Ghostie takes less care than most in crafting his posts. Any number of Lurkers comment on it from time to time, some nicely and some acidly. He chooses to "do it my way."

Being a semi-stubborn person myself, I don't see that approach changing much any time soon.

Call it life its ownself, and have a nice cuppa jo. :D

Occhi

(Attribution: Life Its Ownself is the title of a fine Dan Jenkins novel, with a delightfully MCP Texas slant.)

[Occhidiangela]

If a kid is allowed to play whatever video game he wants, without any parental guiding, then sure; they might get the oppression that using a hooker then killing her to get your money back is OK. But seriously, preventing kids from playing video games is for parents who are too lazy to sit down and talk with their kids.

Nonsense. Out of idle curiosity, which of the Wit brothers are you: Dim, Nit or Half?

Preventing kids from playing video games is a decision any parent may make if there are other avenues of leisure that they feel it is healthier for their children, and-or their family, to pursue. Psychololgists have well documented the "toxic" (term provided to me by a child psychologist I know) nature of the current CRT/video stiumulation environment that most children in America grow up in. Choosing to allow some, few, or no video games (and for that matter TV and or movies) is a decision that any parent will make based on their judgment and efforts in child development. Your assumption that such parents do not sit down and talk with their kids comes from . . . where? Do your parents neglect you?

I watched little TV as a kid, unlike most of my generation, as my parents DID NOT PERMIT IT. That was not child abuse, it was good parenting. I found plenty to do otherwise, to include reading, sports, running around and playing with my friends, board games, playing guitar, after school work as I got older, etc. I was also now and again guided to activities or chores that needed doing if I ever was fool enough to complain that I was bored.

By banning a video game, this means that the parents don't have to actually explain to their children what is right and what is wrong. Instead of actually taking time getting to know their kid, they just rant against violence in (media form X) so that they don't have to.

BS

I can ban a video game in my home without ignorant rants against violence or ignoring my kids, or by omitting discussion about moral, legal, and social matters of interest. I also do not choose to buy FPS's as a class of game. My wife and I collectively made that choice. My kids are learning how to use real weapons, on a range, under my instruction. I consider it a life skill useful for any citizen: the safe handling of firearms. I appreciate folks who choose not to own and use firearms, they are welcome to their exercise of judgment.

Your post is beyond ignorant, founded on the regurgitation of an inane sound byte. Before you open your yap again on the topic of parenting, go borrow a nickel and rent a clue.

Occhi

[jahcs]

I believe Ghostiger's post had a grain of truth to it. Many of these parental activists rely on sensationalism and a public armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. While I don't agree with Ghost's premise as an absolute I would say a number of parents may fall into the groups outlined. Occhi's points that a parent has the right to choose based on whatever criteria or no criteria is also completely within a parent's perogative.

And kudos to you Occhi for teaching your children responsible handling of firearms. Parents coaching their children in the proper care, handling, and respect of firearms is, in my opinion, a good way to help prevent gun crimes.

[Occhidiangela]

I believe Ghostiger's post had a grain of truth to it.&nbsp; Many of these parental activists rely on sensationalism and a public armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.&nbsp; While I don't agree with Ghost's premise as an absolute I would say a number of parents may fall into the groups outlined.&nbsp; Occhi's points that a parent has the right to choose based on whatever criteria or no criteria is also completely within a parent's perogative.

And kudos to you Occhi for teaching your children responsible handling of firearms. Parents coaching their children in the proper care, handling, and respect of firearms is, in my opinion, a good way to help prevent gun crimes.
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My bigger task is teaching them the proper care, handling, and respect for another deadly weapon: an automobile.

American drivers kill 50K per year in this country with that deadly weapon. Most often, I suspect, operator error is the root cause.

Occhi

[ShadowHM]

My bigger task is teaching them the proper care, handling, and respect for another deadly weapon: an automobile.

American drivers kill 50K per year in this country with that deadly weapon.&nbsp; Most&nbsp; often, I suspect, operator error is the root cause.

Occhi
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*groans in sympathy*

I have two young drivers in the family now. The second one *seems* to be handling it well. We have been talking a lot about defensive driving, and the fact that 'dead right' is still dead. :ph34r: He is a more cautious individual by nature, so the lessons are likely to take, I think.

The first one added a few more grey hairs as he learned. His cocksure attitude about his own reflexes and knowledge of the car he was driving was a problem. I hope we have him cured of that now. I wish I could be sure. :o

[Treesh]

My bigger task is teaching them the proper care, handling, and respect for another deadly weapon: an automobile.

American drivers kill 50K per year in this country with that deadly weapon.&nbsp; Most&nbsp; often, I suspect, operator error is the root cause.

Occhi
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Here in Missouri you don't even have to have a driver's education course before trying to get your license. Just driving time with the parents. And people wonder why Missouri drivers are so bad. Glad I learned to drive when I was in Wisconsin. :)

Edit: Grammar has deserted me today.

[Occhidiangela]

Here in Missouri you don't even have to have a driver's education course before trying to get your license.&nbsp; Just driving time with the parents.&nbsp; And people wonder why Missouri drivers are so bad.&nbsp; Glad I learned to drive when I was in Wisconsin. :)
Edit: Grammar has deserted me today.
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Treesh: My daughter is beginning to understand that the standards she has to meet to get my "sign off" are a bit harsher than the min requirements of the State of Texas. We too can do the parents teach thing, which process we are undergoing.

She has to demonstrate to me competency at night, day, downtown, out of town, and a few rainy days before I will consider her "safe for solo." She must also be competent in standard and automatic. Who knows when a friend will need her to drive home after who knows what some night?

My years of flight instructing make me a bit of a hardcase. Lucky for her, she is a quick study. Mastered using a clutch in a parking lot on the second try. Better than either I or my wife. :)

Occhi

[Treesh]

Treesh: My daughter is beginning to understand that the standards she has to meet to get my "sign off" are a bit harsher than the min requirements of the State of Texas.&nbsp; We too can do the parents teach thing, which process we are undergoing.

She has to demonstrate to me competency at night, day, downtown, out of town, and a few rainy days before I will consider her "safe for solo."&nbsp; She must also be competent in standard and automatic.&nbsp; Who knows when a friend will need her to drive home after who knows what some night?

My years of flight instructing make me a bit of a hardcase.&nbsp; Lucky for her, she is a quick study.&nbsp; Mastered using a clutch in a parking lot on the second try.&nbsp; Better than either I or my wife.&nbsp; :)

Occhi
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Yes Occhi, but you are the exception rather than the rule. Most parents down here are terrible drivers themselves and they end up teaching their bad driving to their kids. And most people don't have training in how to teach people and certainly not flight instructor training.

[ShadowHM]

Here in Missouri you don't even have to have a driver's education course before trying to get your license.&nbsp; Just driving time with the parents.&nbsp; And people wonder why Missouri drivers are so bad.&nbsp; Glad I learned to drive when I was in Wisconsin. :)

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Query: What about insurance for young drivers? Isn't that a sufficient incentive for parents to make sure the kid takes a drivers' education course?

Here, the presence of that certificate cuts a minimum of $500 per year off the cost of insuring a young driver as an 'occasional driver' on mom or dad's car, and a whopping amount more if the kid is considered to be the primary driver of a car. (They are considered to be the primary driver of a car if the number of family drivers is equal to or greater than the number of vehicles owned by the family. i.e. If my husband and I purchased a third car, we couldn't claim that he was only an occasional driver of said car.)

[Treesh]

Query:&nbsp; What about insurance for young drivers?&nbsp; Isn't that a sufficient incentive for parents to make sure the kid takes a drivers' education course?

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I'm not sure (we have no kids so we don't have to worry about it), but I do know the majority of people I know who were born and raised here in Missouri never took a driver's ed course. I don't know how that holds to the "norm" though.

[Bob the Beholder]

I've lived in Missouri my entire life. I got my Drivers' License about two years ago. Since then, I've had two different Drivers' Ed. courses, and an eight hour Defensive Driving class. Still no sign of the elusive and mysterious 'insurance discount' I keep hearing about.

... but, then, maybe my insurance company is headed by Satan or something. Maybe one of his horrible, depraved hellspawn?

Anyway, I play violent games. Lots of violent games. Personally, I think that GTA San Andreas (but only San Andreas, really--the earlier two games were quite inferior) is a great game, with lots of fun, interesting things to do in it, and a surprisingly interesting storyline.

... still wouldn't let a little kid play it.

Kinda sickened me a while ago when I was forced to some sort of extended family gathering maybe a year ago, to find my seven or eight year old cousin playing Vice City with a heavy load of psychopathic glee, while his father watched.

Kinda wanted to smack the both of 'em.

[ShadowHM]

I've lived in Missouri my entire life.&nbsp; I got my Drivers' License about two years ago.&nbsp; Since then, I've had two different Drivers' Ed. courses, and an eight hour Defensive Driving class.&nbsp; Still no sign of the elusive and mysterious 'insurance discount' I keep hearing about.

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I hate to ask such an obvious question :rolleyes: but have you asked your insurance company?

They don't keep track of courses taken, and they certainly don't have any incentive to be phoning you to ask about it. :P

I would be phoning my insurance agent, were I you, and asking some pointed questions about where and when they apply discounts and what documentation they want before they apply them.

I was bemused to realize that, in the case of my insurance company, the 'age' discounts that they apply kick in at surprisingly different ages, by gender. Women get that 'age discount' at 25 and men at 42! :blink:

[Occhidiangela]

I've lived in Missouri my entire life.&nbsp; I got my Drivers' License about two years ago.&nbsp; Since then, I've had two different Drivers' Ed. courses, and an eight hour Defensive Driving class.&nbsp; Still no sign of the elusive and mysterious 'insurance discount' I keep hearing about.

... but, then, maybe my insurance company is headed by Satan or something.&nbsp; Maybe one of his horrible, depraved hellspawn?&nbsp;

Anyway, I play violent games.&nbsp; Lots of violent games.&nbsp; Personally, I think that GTA San Andreas (but only San Andreas, really--the earlier two games were quite inferior) is a great game, with lots of fun, interesting things to do in it, and a surprisingly interesting storyline.&nbsp;

... still wouldn't let a little kid play it.&nbsp; &nbsp;

Kinda sickened me a while ago when I was forced to some sort of extended family gathering maybe a year ago, to find my seven or eight year old cousin playing Vice City with a heavy load of psychopathic glee, while his father watched.&nbsp;

Kinda wanted to smack the both of 'em.
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Whichever poster commented on the ESRB rating, and why us parents should understand them as well as we understand movie ratings, is spot on. Still, those are general ratings . . . details are sometimes needed to make a good decision.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Yes Occhi, but you are the exception rather than the rule.  Most parents down here are terrible drivers themselves and they end up teaching their bad driving to their kids.  And most people don't have training in how to teach people and certainly not flight instructor training.
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Change part of your statement to read "most people are bad drivers" and I will agree with you 100%!

Flip side, and I don't think he is that unusual a person, my dad is one of the best defensive drivers I have ever met. He has been driving cars since 1946, and has IIRC had two fender benders, one "slide off the road in the snow," and a few "avoid the idiot who darn near killed him." My mom has had one fender bender, but she never commuted any distance to work. I am not as good a defensive driver as my dad or mom: no injuries, but two "more than a fender bent" and three "bumped into something at slow speed due to low alertness to environment/getting cute/late to brake." I have only been driving since 1975. My Dad versus Occhi? PWNAGE in the driving game! :o

While those two set a high standard, which I have not been able to equal, I believe there are a lot of good defensive drivers out there, we just never hear of them. We also don't "see" them since they tend to fit into the traffic flow pretty well and don't come up on our own driving 'radar' as "a critical object that is a threat to my driving space and path."

Your concern that the "blind teach the blind" is valid. Driving is approached too casually by far too many of our fellow drivers. I have in the past been guilty of taking driving for granted, have driven intoxicated on more than one occasion (ah, the idiocy of youthful rogues) though I take driving seriously as a general rule. Partly due to what Dad and Mom taught me, partly from my experiences as an instructor (refining "what to look for when" senses) and partly what any of us learns over time as we encounter different driving challenges.

Occhi

[whyBish]

The first one added a few more grey hairs as he learned.

Yup, my dad had black hair before he taught me to drive. He is now almost completely grey :P

[Treesh]

Change part of your statement to read "most people are bad drivers" and I will agree with you 100%!&nbsp;
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:rolleyes: Parents are people too Occhi and since I was speaking about parents teaching their kids bad habits, it was more pertinent to say "parents" rather than "people".