How to not piss off your dagger rogue

[Treesh]

I'm making this specifically about dagger rogues because that's what my rogues use and it seems that not too many of our lurkers have grouped with dagger rogues, even those with multiple characters in the 60s. Edit: Rereading this, it's really more about backstab/ambush rogues than dagger rogues.

First off, about sap. We can help with pre-pull crowd control in the correct situations. Please note the pre-pull part of that sentence. If you do need to have something sapped, you must wait until you see it sapped. Rogues (all rogues) cannot sap a humanoid that is in combat. We cannot sap animals, demons, elementals or undead. We sap humanoids. That's it. We do not want to sap constantly (or at least I don't ;) ), but if you are looking at a three pull of all humanoids and you only have one other class with good crowd control and there are not other mobs close to that known three pull, let the rogue sap and remember to WAIT for the sap to go off. If there are other mobs close to the three you're looking at, that is not really a proper time for sap (unless the rogue has improved sap. Ask your rogue beforehand and give them time to answer before charging off). If you aren't sure what is or isn't a good time for a sap, you can ask your rogue. Hopefully they'll know. ;)

Second, for dagger rogues specifically, we need to be able to position ourselves behind the mobs as well as we can. Not only are we fighting latency issues and lag and just plain old poor synchonization between where the server says the critter is and where the client thinks the critter is, we are also fighting aggro bouncing. Let the main tank hold aggro. If you are off-tank, manage your aggro so the critter isn't constantly flipping between you and the tank especially if you two decide to be on opposite sides of the critter. If you are an off-tank, make sure to stay on the same side of the critter as the main tank so if you do happen to take aggro, you aren't screwing over your backstabbing/ambushing rogue. Edit: You don't have to stand exactly on the same side as the tank, but try not to go more than 90 degrees rotation in relation to the tank. This will allow the tank to know if something has stopped attacking him and starting attacking the main tank and will also allow your rogue to still be in position for backstabs.

Tanks, keep critters away from the walls if you are in an enclosed area. If your rogue can't actually fit between the critter and the wall, you're losing out on a lot of damage and it can be very frustrating for the rogue. Basically, people only see us as DPS monkeys and forget everything else we can do, but if you take away good positioning from the backstab/ambush rogue you're severely crippling our damage, the main role we are put into.

Third, if you see us stealthing to go scout something do NOT follow us unless you can stealth as well. There's nothing worse than trying to scout and seeing that big ol' warrior walking right next to you, stomping his feet and yelling, "What are we looking at?" ;) If your rogue consistently goes off to scout and gets himself/herself in trouble, let the stupid bugger die and tell them to knock it off. If they're that bad at scouting and sneaking, they shouldn't be doing it.

I do not consider myself an expert at rogues (I don't consider myself an expert at anything in this game really), but the number of lurkers who seem to have never grouped with a rogue is just alarming to me. I can't even take my Etheramwen into instances without being horribly frustrated because no one seems to know how to group with a backstab/ambush rogue. Sapping is usually forgotten about or else no one ever knows that you can't sap something in combat so they pull and then expect a sap. If you haven't played a rogue or else grouped with a rogue, that's not something you are going to know so I don't blame people for not knowing it, but having to explain that every single time I group with people is getting very frustrating and exasperating so I posted here.

I don't think I'm asking a lot here. If you want me to sap, let me sap. If you don't want a sap, great. I have no problem with that either. Just let me actually do the damage you brought me along to do! I don't generally over aggro and if I do, feint really does work well to give it back to the tank. If that doesn't work, let me die or just worry about my own healing. Just let me backstab and ambush as I was built to do.

Edit again: Another note for tanks, if you're grouping with a rogue you haven't grouped with frequently, let them know if you normally charge pull or range pull and if you decide to pull differently for special cases, let the rogue know that just before the pull too. And if you do charge pull and your rogue is a couple of levels lower than you are, make sure you try to pull the critter back a bit after the charge. We're a bit closer to other monsters that your charge didn't wake up and when we pop out of stealth after the ambush, that closeness and higher aggro radius can do Bad Things. If there's not another critter close, don't worry about moving back

[Quark]

Some notes: groups will get better with CC later on, because frankly, they have to. If they're 5-manning and not CCing as much as possible, they'll pay the price. Earlier on I can see problems, just make sure the group knows you need to Sap first and have a clear target picked out.

I'm a dagger rogue, but haven't used Backstab. :huh: you say? Well, before the patch it was simply better to Ambush then spam Sinister Strike. Now I have to try out the new Backstab, but first my CPU has to handle load for more than 10 minutes without burning out :angry:

One tip to Rogues, if they haven't figured this quirk out yet. If someone aggros a monster while you're stealthed, that monster can walk right through you and not see you. Use this to your advantage to get in a good position to Ambush without having to chase the monster down :)

[Treesh]

One tip to Rogues, if they haven't figured this quirk out yet.  If someone aggros a monster while you're stealthed, that monster can walk right through you and not see you.  Use this to your advantage to get in a good position to Ambush without having to chase the monster down :)
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I did forget to mention that and I'm glad you brought it up. I do that constantly. Taranna (GG's druid) starfires to start the fight, I stealth as he's casting and take that time to position myself in front of him, facing him while he's pounding it with wraths and a moonfire and then faerie fires. The critter just walks through me and I'm in a great position for ambush without having to move much and faerie fire definitely helps boost my ambush damage. :) Edit: Him blasting away also helps keep aggro off of me when I do the insane crits so I can whip out the damage while he tanks/heals. Works amazingly well for us. :D

I backstab a lot if we are fighting multiple things because I'm not going to vanish every fight just to get in an ambush. Most of the time I am also behind the critter because I've got the druid who really works to build up a lot of aggro before I ambush so I'm unstealthed, but behind a critter. Perfect time for backstab! ;) Sometimes the backstab does less than the ambush, sometimes it does more, sometimes it's about the same (excepting when one crits and the other doesn't). It's especially all over the place with the new patch. My crits with ambush were actually higher though after the patch than before the patch. Not by a whole lot, but by a noticeable amount still.

Edit2: I have no idea why this isn't in Strategy/Game Mechanics. Must have had a brain cramp. Would some kind mod/admin move it there please?

[Sabra]

Hi, Treesh:

I'm so glad that you took the time to write this. Highly illuminating. As one who has rarely grouped with rogues and never played one, I'd have known none of this. So interesting and truly helpful. Fascinating too. I'm intrigued.

My thanks.

[Darian]

Second, for dagger rogues specifically, we need to be able to position ourselves behind the mobs as well as we can.  Not only are we fighting latency issues and lag and just plain old poor synchonization between where the server says the critter is and where the client thinks the critter is, we are also fighting aggro bouncing.  Let the main tank hold aggro.  If you are off-tank, manage your aggro so the critter isn't constantly flipping between you and the tank especially if you two decide to be on opposite sides of the critter.  If you are an off-tank, make sure to stay on the same side of the critter as the main tank so if you do happen to take aggro, you aren't screwing over your backstabbing/ambushing rogue.
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This is where my having partnered with a rogue in EQ is a big help for me when I'm with a rogue here!

What I love watching, though, is when I'm with two rogues... and they act in unison as an off-tank, bouncing the aggro back and forth between them so one of them is always behind the mob. It's a thing of beauty... ;)

[Kevin]

This is where my having partnered with a rogue in EQ is a big help for me when I'm with a rogue here!

What I love watching, though, is when I'm with two rogues... and they act in unison as an off-tank, bouncing the aggro back and forth between them so one of them is always behind the mob.  It's a thing of beauty... ;)
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Depending on the mob and the situation Treesh and I will do that with Eth and Taranna in cat form. Sure the cat does not have the rogue DPS, but we'll both stealth around and then one of us will use the ambush style skill (ravage for druid) to open the fight, the other will then use their ambush style skill since they were positioned to sneak up and do it. Then the backstab style skills (shred for druid) will be used by whoever has them. We can't bounce as well as I would like since I need to crit to pull aggro, but we can devestate mobs that way as well. My starfire, wrath, Faerie Fire, moonfire pull order with Treesh waiting in stealth works well. I will usually still have aggro after that so she can get one back stab in. I put the FF before moonfire now because of how quick a lot of critters charge. I want it to go off before Treesh does the ambush. I'll also flop into bear and taunt to keep backs towards her if need be. The druid rogue combo is just a lot of fun. So much versatility and a lovely source of DPS.

But I've often wondered when we are playing stealth buddies what two rogues would be like. But I figure the druids versatility just benefits us more. :)

[Tal]

Edit2: I have no idea why this isn't in Strategy/Game Mechanics.  Must have had a brain cramp.  Would some kind mod/admin move it there please?
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Moved m'lady.

[Bolty]

I'm making this specifically about dagger rogues because that's what my rogues use and it seems that not too many of our lurkers have grouped with dagger rogues, even those with multiple characters in the 60s.[right][snapback]74639[/snapback][/right]

Treesh, good stuff! This reminds me a little bit too much of my Priest Rant. It's a very good thing for anyone who has played a lot of any class to post their partying gripes. Nobody's had the time to play all 9 classes to level 60 and nobody knows every little detail of these classes, so these posts really help. Whole strategy guides could be written just telling other classes how to take best advantage of any one particular class. In the end, it makes us all better players. What most players know of are the basic roles and a few tricks of the other classes, but not the in-depth tips and tricks that come through deep playing experience of a particular class. Heck, it wasn't until I was level 50-something in RETAIL on my Priest that I learned about the joys of Improved Sap - I had never seen it in action (of course, that says a lot about many Rogue players, too).

Getting off topic - to me, Rogues are a guilty pleasure. When I play one I find myself shaking my head at times at the insanity of their 1v1 killing speed. Quests to go out and kill X mobs are done in less than half the time of a Holy-spec Priest or Defensive-based Warrior with very little additional risk. I can see why they're so popular. But I also see why they're not wanted in instances and how that can be frustrating. I'd hate to go so far as to say that Rogues are "easy mode" in the normal leveling process, but I find the difference jarring when I switch to, say, a Druid and I can't take something down to 50-65% health in ONE hit anymore (Ambush/Crit), obliterate it seconds later, and have no real downtime since mana isn't a concern. Heal myself? Why, when I kill it so fast it only lands two hits on me? :)

I think if I had started WoW with a Rogue, every other class would feel painfully slow, weak, and boring. And then I'd complain that nobody wanted me for instances. Just like so many other Rogues out there, and I understand why. You can't have it both ways - uber soloing ability and greatly wanted in groups. Then that's all anybody would play!

Oops, now I'm really going off on a tangent, and I don't want to thread hijack.

End of line.

-Bolty

[Treesh]

I think if I had started WoW with a Rogue, every other class would feel painfully slow, weak, and boring.  And then I'd complain that nobody wanted me for instances.  Just like so many other Rogues out there, and I understand why.  You can't have it both ways - uber soloing ability and greatly wanted in groups.  Then that's all anybody would play!
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I don't care about not being greatly wanted in groups. I just want to be able to actually contribute in groups and have things go smoothly. :)

[Ynir]

My guild has so many rogues they won't recruit more. And they are very good at their work. As main tank I get to watch their tradecraft close up.

They make me feel clanky and ungainly, with an aggro radius the size of Trenton, NJ.

I will not 5-man Strat/Scarlet or LBRS without a rogue with imp sap (and a mage) in the group.

[playingtokrush]

I will not 5-man Strat/Scarlet or LBRS without a rogue with imp sap (and a mage) in the group.
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I would've said the same thing except I 5-manned Stratholme (Scarlet) without a rogue the other day. This was the first time I ever 5-manned a "level 60 instance." Our group was surprisingly coordinated, and we only wiped once since our foolish priest didn't run to safety after having Divine Intervention cast on him.

[Skandranon]

I would've said the same thing except I 5-manned Stratholme (Scarlet) without a rogue the other day.  This was the first time I ever 5-manned a "level 60 instance."  Our group was surprisingly coordinated, and we only wiped once since our foolish priest didn't run to safety after having Divine Intervention cast on him.
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FYI, anyone under the effect of Divine Intervention *can't* run. In fact, they can't do anything. Divine Intervention prevents them from taking any action at all.

[playingtokrush]

FYI, anyone under the effect of Divine Intervention *can't* run.  In fact, they can't do anything.  Divine Intervention prevents them from taking any action at all.
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Oh. It's funny that he didn't mention that. Our paladin seemed unaware of that as well. Considering how quickly we wiped, it didn't seem like it took 30 seconds for the rest of us to die, yet as soon as the last of us went down, the mobs went gunning for the priest. I know I certainly bit the dust quickly.

Edit: I guess that makes the paladin's anti-wipe ability somewhat unreliable and hard to use. In raid situations, especially, it can take some time for everyone to die.

[Tal]

Oh.  It's funny that he didn't mention that.  Our paladin seemed unaware of that as well.  Considering how quickly we wiped, it didn't seem like it took 30 seconds for the rest of us to die, yet as soon as the last of us went down, the mobs went gunning for the priest.  I know I certainly bit the dust quickly.

Edit: I guess that makes the paladin's anti-wipe ability somewhat unreliable and hard to use.  In raid situations, especially, it can take some time for everyone to die.
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Using DI is difficult. If your priest is near the mobs when DI'd then he/she will get aggro. Also if you use it too early in the fight the priest will still be in aggro range when it wears off. If at all possible the best way to handle it is for the priest to call for a DI after running away a bit.

[Bolty]

Using DI is difficult. If your priest is near the mobs when DI'd then he/she will get aggro.  Also if you use it too early in the fight the priest will still be in aggro range when it wears off. If at all possible the best way to handle it is for the priest to call for a DI after running away a bit.[right][snapback]75045[/snapback][/right]

Hey Tal, if you're not all that familiar with Paladins or have never played one extensively, you have no clue how Divine Intervention works...how about some background? I know it has something to do with taking you out of combat and was added on the later end of the beta, but I don't know the specifics...

-Bolty

[Tal]

Hey Tal, if you're not all that familiar with Paladins or have never played one extensively, you have no clue how Divine Intervention works...how about some background?  I know it has something to do with taking you out of combat and was added on the later end of the beta, but I don't know the specifics...

-Bolty
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Certainly Bolty. Divine Intervention is a wipe saving spells that Paladins can utilize. The only problem is that it MUST be cast on someone else. For obvious reasons you would not want to cast it on a druid who has already used their combat resurrection. As I stated in my post the person who is to be resurrected should be back from the action and the paladin should wait as long as possible before DI'ing that person. Use your shields if you have to to buy time for the priest/druid to get back. Then cast Divine Intervention on the subject (you must have a reagent to cast it). The DI drops the person from the hate list of mobs entirely and that person can do nothing for 30 seconds. If you wait as long as possible before casting it then you have a good chance of the mobs going back to their spots so the priest can rez the party.

Edit: In raid situations paladins should target other paladins for DI to double up the chances that a wipe can be averted.

[Skandranon]

A couple other points. Firstly, upon casting DI the paladin immediately dies. Part of the spell says "sacrifice yourself to...." This can often make DI even harder to use if the paladin is main-tanking, as the first sign of a wipe tends to be the main tank going down.

The other thing I wanted to note was that DI drops the target from the hate list immediately. For the rest of the 30 seconds, all DI does is prevent mobs from reacquiring him; most of the useful part occurs right at the start. An interesting tactic with DI in raid situations is to have a paladin DI a priest or another paladin, and have the DI'ed target immediately right-click the DI icon to cancel it and get free. Now you have a resurrector out of combat, and I don't think I need to explain how useful that can be. Remembering that you can right-click cancel out of it is useful also in a 5-man situation when you're DIed and a patrol is coming.

[Alrin]

Really makes me think how super DI+NE Priest would be.

Party wipe coming, priest in combat. Paladin DI's priest, priest cancels and shadowmelds immediately. Voila.
Ofcourse, for other classes you have the gnome invisibility cloak and invis potions but SM really takes the cake.

[Roland]

Here here! I could not have put it better myself.

[Treesh]

If you are an off-tank, make sure to stay on the same side of the critter as the main tank so if you do happen to take aggro, you aren't screwing over your backstabbing/ambushing rogue.
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Minor nit to myself here (I missed fixing this bit the first couple of reads and Roland bumping this brought it to my attention). If you are an off-tank, you don't have to be on the same side as the tank, but stand at most 90 degrees relative to the tank. If you stand 90 degrees from the tank, the tank will be able to see if he's lost aggro on some critter to you because the critter will visibly turn and the rogue will still be able to get into position for backstabs easily. Yes, if something aggros on the offtank instead of the tank it's not that bad, but a lot of tanks really like to know exactly what is stuck to them and what isn't. So standing directly next to the tank isn't the best, but try to not go farther than 90 degrees to help out your rogues too.

Edit: I also added a note about tanks and the pulls to the main post that I forgot to put in before as well.