This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Darian]

Having a comfort level of playing with the same people/classes is very nice and helps to streamline the process but never underestimate the value of playing with others.  You might just learn something new to take back to your usual group :)
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That's pretty much what I was trying to say, only I forgot to stretch it out enough to make that clear. I think my example may have incorrectly come across as meaning "Treesh and I should never group because we'd probably drive one another batty" rather than my intended meaning, which was more like "The way group dynamics encourage you to develop a comfort level has a bad side, that being that because of it, Treesh and I would probably drive one another batty (until we got used to one another, of course)." ;)

[Treesh]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, only I forgot to stretch it out enough to make that clear.  I think my example may have incorrectly come across as meaning "Treesh and I should never group because we'd probably drive one another batty" rather than my intended meaning, which was more like "The way group dynamics encourage you to develop a comfort level has a bad side, that being that because of it, Treesh and I would probably drive one another batty (until we got used to one another, of course)."  ;)
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Nah, as long as you know it's all about me and keeping me happy, we'd be good. ;) :D

[Drasca]

2) to engage a mob that is attacking a squishie with the pet and basically solo it while the rest of the group carries on with whatever it was doing without something eating the healer. Again there's no point sheeping it and Serpent Sting speeds the job up[right][snapback]78708[/snapback][/right]

Personally, I rather you don't do this. At least no serpent sting or dots. FD Freeze trap would be ideal. However, this depends on your group composition.

In 5 man LBRS, a hunter kept trying to venom sting, and it guaranteed extra wipes.

1) Nothing really 'eats' a good healer with their hot button on fade.
2) We had two CC'ers, plus Hunter FD + Freeze trap combo mid battle if he ever was smarter.

When anything moved the least bit toward the healer, the hunter tried to solo. BAD IDEA. Our mage and I were trying to CC the sucker, especially previously sapped/poly'ed high priority targets.

Still, its a judgement call between your party composition and battle situation. If no CC's are ever coming and there's no fade...

But preferably, no serpent please. Scatter and freeze trap if you really want to peel. That's a lot safer.

I'm not saying you're wrong Drasca, but you seem to be assuming a third role for a hunter which I haven't figured out yet

Hunters have track everything on their radar. They're first line of recon against incoming mobs. This feature is more important in some places than others. PvP areas is the most obvious, but anywhere where there's a high priority patrol like MC, DM, or just a lot of patrols like Scholo. . . hunters should be pinging the radar like mad and announcing what's incoming.

[Mirajj]

When anything moved the least bit toward the healer, the hunter tried to solo. BAD IDEA. Our mage and I were trying to CC the sucker, especially previously sapped/poly'ed high priority targets.
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It sounds to me like one of the main problems you have is that no one in the party seems to be sure of their secondary role. This would be solved easily by telling the hunter at the start "Don't worry about the healer, our mages will take care of anything threatening the healer." Or telling the mages "Don't worry about the healer, the hunter will take care of anything threating them."

That way, you have a defined healer protector, instead of all the suddden 2-4 people pulling their DPS off the tank's mob to defend the healer.

If the person defending the healer needs an extra hand dealing with the healer's mobs, they can call for it, then either a secondary healer assist, or everyone piles onto what's attacking the healer.

Edit:For a bit more clarity of thought.

[Drasca]

That way, you have a defined healer protector, instead of all the suddden 2-4 people pulling their DPS off the tank's mob to defend the healer.
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Oh we tried.

Everyone asked to lectured to yelled at him several times (especially the priest and I). He just wouldn't listen. Refused to stop solo'ing really.

I would've kicked him, but several things went bad that night like our raid leader fell asleep at his keyboard, and he was a guildmate of someone else I try to keep in favor with.

Can't do jack if a player refuses to comply with a change in plans.

(I'm pretty sure noone else on Stormrage has hit double-digits of 5-man runs in Scholomance).

Ooh. You aren't the only one in this thread to do so ;) High-five buddy.

I expect with more Lurkers getting to 60 that I'm going to see even more different groups now.

Expect rules of gameplay to be different too. I challenge your aggro assumptions here. Your pull and engagement tactics will change too. Learn how to be backup tank, and work with a second warrior. Et al.

Consider playing high instance groups outside LL too. Learn who the good players are on your server and how to play alongside them. They'll usually have the most organization on their side.

[Brista]

Personally, I rather you don't do this. At least no serpent sting or dots. FD Freeze trap would be ideal. However, this depends on your group composition.

In 5 man LBRS, a hunter kept trying to venom sting, and it guaranteed extra wipes.

1) Nothing really 'eats' a good healer with their hot button on fade.
2) We had two CC'ers, plus Hunter FD + Freeze trap combo mid battle if he ever was smarter.

When anything moved the least bit toward the healer, the hunter tried to solo. BAD IDEA. Our mage and I were trying to CC the sucker, especially previously sapped/poly'ed high priority targets.

Still, its a judgement call between your party composition and battle situation. If no CC's are ever coming and there's no fade...

But preferably, no serpent please. Scatter and freeze trap if you really want to peel. That's a lot safer.
Hunters have track everything on their radar. They're first line of recon against incoming mobs. This feature is more important in some places than others. PvP areas is the most obvious, but anywhere where there's a high priority patrol like MC, DM, or just a lot of patrols like Scholo. . . hunters should be pinging the radar like mad and announcing what's incoming.
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OK I see what you're saying but I disagree

Basically you had one idiot using a dot from which you're inferring dot is always the wrong move

I certainly agree that it should be one specific person to help the healer. But if the specific person is the hunter then either killing the mob or freezing it are both viable methods. FD/Freeze depends on the mob standing on a particular patch of ground. Unless you are playing with someone you group with a lot and/or are on Teamspeak with your chances of getting a panicking healer to lead a mob onto the trap are rather low. What seems more likely is you'll run to the mob, FD, lay the trap and find the healer has retreated a bit taking his mob with him and your FD is now on cooldown. I haven't tried an FD/Freeze macro yet (and probably should do), that may improve it a bit.

Also, if we've agreed it should be me helping the healer in this situation, what on earth are you doing using Seduce on the mob? It's not your job

Sending the pet in and killing it as fast as possible is the alternative. The drawback is that you may not be able to generate aggro enough to pull it off the healer, especially if the healer continues to heal both himself and the tank. Since it's about generating damage and threat as fast as possible it doesn't make sense to exclude one of your damage options. Serpent Sting is an advantage. If the Hunter is trying to kill something then Seduce and Sheep are out anyway. Even without Serpent Sting with the 0.7 attack speed pet (1.0 pet with Frenzy) and the hunter shooting it you won't CC it once the Hunter is in kill-destroy mode. I don't really buy the notion that CC is required because the hunter can't perform this role without dying. My hunter is level 48 so perhaps I won't be as strong against an even level elite later as I am now but currently I'd be very confident in doing this role

It does slightly concern me that from one very bad experience with a poor player you've extrapolated a theory that Serpent Sting is always contra-indicated regardless of the tactical situation. If when you see the debuff you start screaming "bad hunter" you're adding considerably to the potential for the group to fall apart

I much prefer mjdoom's approach of try it and see if it works. If I joined someone's group and got an apparently arbitrary no dots rule I'd be mildly annoyed. Not annoyed enough to leave probably but I'd feel a bit insulted that a catch-all rule has been implemented apparently on the assumption that all hunters are idiots. Even if you're right, you're not persuading people. If Serpent Sting is an utter disaster in any circumstances in UBRS and I do UBRS in your group, I will never discover this for myself and probably never accept it. I think you'd be more effective to convince and educate people rather than adopt a blanket "think for yourself? you're out!" approach. Still my hunter swallows a lot that would have one of my healers leaving the group

1) Nothing really 'eats' a good healer with their hot button on fade.

????

1) Fade doesn't always work
2) Fade has a fairly long cooldown
3) Not all good healers are Priests

[Drasca]

Sending the pet in and killing it as fast as possible is the alternative.

Elites don't die fast.

The drawback is that you may not be able to generate aggro enough to pull it off

If the Hunter is trying to kill something then Seduce and Sheep are out anyway.

He shouldn't have been trying to attack that CC'able target at all. Its a duh moment if both seduce and sheep are available. Hunters refusing to listen to reason and attacking anyway would be kicked from my groups.

Beyond that, hunters have many options to disengage from targets. FD, Disengage, scatter, wing clip, concussion, etc.

We tell him stop attacking, he doesn't listen. Do we really want a someone solo'ing in our party?

I don't really buy the notion that CC is required because the hunter can't perform this role without dying. My hunter is level 48 so perhaps I won't be as strong against an even level elite later as I am now but currently I'd be very confident in doing this role

Lol. You'll quickly find different soon. You simply won't either be able to absorb damage or dish out damage fast enough, or damage-control the mob so it won't do damage to others through normal attacks.

Serpent Sting is always contra-indicated regardless of the tactical situation.

Let me think. SS... Takes up a debuff slot (pushing other useful debuffs off), doesn't help universal damage, and prevents CC... vs what? a very incrimental amount of damage that doesn't even generate a lot of hate? The negatives greatly outweigh the positives here buddy.

If when you see the debuff you start screaming "bad hunter" you're adding considerably to the potential for the group to fall apart

Refs blow whistles and make call red on fouls. I do the same. Sting is universally bad to open with. Mid battle when a MA has already engaged, fine. Not really a big deal.

Try to steal aggro when you're a class inefficient at aggro-theft, and unable to kill elite mobs, before they kill the priest or you. Its not going to fly buddy.

[Quark]

Lol. You'll quickly find different soon. You simply won't either be able to absorb damage or dish out damage fast enough, or damage-control the mob so it won't do damage to others through normal attacks.

You make it sound as if my Hunter/Hunter/Priest/Priest/Rogue group should never have been able to do BRD. In fact, it was the easiest group to do the Highway I was ever in. Don't say "won't" until you've seen it in action with good players.

[Mirajj]

Lol. You'll quickly find different soon. You simply won't either be able to absorb damage or dish out damage fast enough, or damage-control the mob so it won't do damage to others through normal attacks.

You make it sound as if my Hunter/Hunter/Priest/Priest/Rogue group should never have been able to do BRD.  In fact, it was the easiest group to do the Highway I was ever in.  Don't say "won't" until you've seen it in action with good players

That's what I was wondering, too. I never seem to have problems pulling aggro and killing the mob, keeping both me and my cat alive in the process. I fill the role of healer protector quite a bit in our usual group of warrior/priest/mage/mage/hunter. I was wondering what was going on in his post until I realized that he'd had a bad experience with a single hunter, and now was painting the whole class with that brush. A shame, really.

You are jumping everywhere, Drasca. First you say hunters are bad at pulling aggro, so we shouldn't defend a healer, or use anything (yes, Stings are a good part of a hunter's arsenal) in our power to generate the aggro. No wonder the hunter you were playing with was confused. Hell, just reading through this with you jumping back and forth between a healer defender and a just plain dps dealer has me confused, and I have the benefit of not being in an instance/battle with you 'yelling' at me.

Sounds to me like you need to learn a bit more about hunters. When I was 58, I was able to hold my own/kill an even level melee elite. I haven't tried it against a 60 elite yet, but if it finally did finish me off, it'd not last much longer against whatever the group could/would throw at it. The thing you are condemning about hunter's is actually a strength. You say that we only solo, but that means we have the tools to grab and hold aggro quickly. We have the staying power to take some hits (though not in the class of a warrior, of course) and we do some decent DPS.

I dunno...this post is just irritating, as you seem to want the hunter to play how you'd play, if it was you playing the hunter. I don't tell the warrior how to tank, or the mage how to fight...I'd suggest doing the same with the hunter. Tell him or her what you want done ("Defend the healer at all costs") and leave them alone to do it unless they ask for help in battle.

That said...yeah, you seemed to have a semi-sucky hunter, but you didn't seem to be helping the situation either. Someone starts yelling/critizing me in the middle of an instance, I'm gonna get my hackles up, too.

[Brista]

Elites don't die fast.

Faster is not synonymous with fast. A tortoise is faster than a snail, neither is fast

The drawback is that you may not be able to generate aggro enough to pull it off
He shouldn't have been trying to attack that CC'able target at all. Its a duh moment if both seduce and sheep are available.

OK, you're jumping back from a generalisation to the specific bad experience you suffered again. Do you remember when you said that the group should agree on one person doing the cc if a mob goes for the healer? I'm saying if the one person is the hunter then Serpent Sting is useful and any other abilities from any other class are not indicated because the group has agreed that it's not their job.

Maybe in your groups Mages and Warlocks always undertake cc responsibilities. I guess your groups only fight Humanoid mobs. ;)

Hunters refusing to listen to reason and attacking anyway would be kicked from my groups.

Why Hunters specifically? Why not kick any one who refuses to listen and screws up the party? Such as a Mage trying to sheep a mob a hunter is engaging

Beyond that, hunters have many options to disengage from targets. FD, Disengage, scatter, wing clip, concussion, etc.

Seems a poor option. Mob attacks healer. Hunter raises his aggro above the healer's. Mob attacks Hunter. Hunter zeroes his aggro. Mob attacks healer again. If I were to peel a mob off a healer with damage I wouldn't disengage since I have no way of knowing whether the healer is second on the mob's hate list

We tell him stop attacking, he doesn't listen. Do we really want a someone solo'ing in our party?

I played with a Warlock once. He had bad pet control. We wiped. I played with another one. He used Fear stupidly. We wiped. I played with another one, he kept using Life tap and the healers spent an excessive amount of mana healing him. We wiped

From these I could extrapolate a No Pets, No Fear, No Life Tap set of rules for Warlocks I invite. Because I had a bad experience. Once.

But it's not really about the skills, it's about the player.

Lol. You'll quickly find different soon. You simply won't either be able to absorb damage or dish out damage fast enough, or damage-control the mob so it won't do damage to others through normal attacks.

To grab aggro I only have to do more threat with damage than the healer has gained by healing. It's actually not level dependent. If the healer has been conservative with heals it may not be hard at all to grab aggro. If the healer has grabbed aggro by doing 1000 points of healing I need to do about 600 damage to grab aggro. This has nothing to do with the stats of whatever we're fighting

Let me think. SS... Takes up a debuff slot (pushing other useful debuffs off),

Very rarely an issue in 5 man groups, especially against a mob that isn't the main target

doesn't help universal damage

I have no idea what you mean here. I'm not trying to damage the universe, I'm trying to damage my mob :)

and prevents CC

and prevents CC that is moot in any case if I've decided I'm going to attack the mob until it dies (barring a change of mind, but as you've realised hunters have an early warning against patrols)

... vs what? a very incrimental amount of damage that doesn't even generate a lot of hate?

I don't think you know either how to spell or to use the word incremental. I'm guessing the word you wanted here was "small". It is simply more damage. It is extra damage on top of standard autoshoot, that doesn't impair other timers. I will always do less damage if I don't use SS than if I do. It generates exactly the same hate as other forms of damage do, afaik. 200 damage from SS is the same threat as 200 damage from autoshot

The negatives greatly outweigh the positives here buddy.

Well we disagree

Refs blow whistles and make call red on fouls. I do the same. Sting is universally bad to open with. Mid battle when a MA has already engaged, fine. Not really a big deal.

That's simply sad. Not only is your opinion mistaken, and apparently based on watching bad hunters rather than playing one but it doesn't sound like you'll ever allow yourself the opportunity to experience a good hunter since it sounds like you'll boot anyone trying stuff that mirrors something you've a bad hunter do. In fact if you see a bad hunter player do something it may well be they're attempting to do something they've seen a good hunter do that worked well but they lack the finesse to do it themselves

As for seeing yourself as an authority figure in a group I think you're marginalising yourself. I have no idea what the demographics on your server are like. On my server the leading elite Horde guild is gathering a growing reputation for arrogance and a lot of people are avoiding grouping with them. I'm on the Maelstrom, a fairly new EU server. Despite being far ahead of all the other guilds I have a sneaking suspicion that this uber guild isn't going to be the guild that does Onyxia first

I think I can see why this Hunter in your group didn't listen to you. Sometimes even if someone's right they're so annoying that you don't care

Try to steal aggro when you're a class inefficient at aggro-theft

High dps, Distracting shot, fast attacking pet, healer aggro on both pet and me and pet Growl

and unable to kill elite mobs

You've never played a hunter have you? :)

Its not going to fly buddy.

I honestly think it's your loss. The game's fairly easy so if you forbid innovation with the aim of making sure that everyone is vestigially competent that's a perfectly viable strategy. All you really need for most instance runs is a decent tank, a healer who pays attention and everyone else not to screw things up. It isn't the most fun way to play the game though

Edit: I've messed up the quotes here but I can't see where. Could some eagle-eyed person let me know if you see where I've gone wrong and I'll fix it :blush:

[Drasca]

with a single hunter, and now was painting the whole class with that brush.  [right][snapback]78868[/snapback][/right]

I've had bad experiences with dozens of hunters, and great experiences with good hunters. The good ones dps against main targets, and keep rogue targets distracted, and know when not to attack. Soloing isn't part of that.

I have the benefit of not being in an instance/battle with you 'yelling' at me.

Its clearer when the targets are obvious, and the healer , mage, and warrior are yapping at you to stop too.

Sounds to me like you need to learn a bit more about hunters. When I was 58, I was able to hold my own/kill an even level melee elite.

Hunters can solo a lot, but its not good to solo in instances, and definitely not against most enemies.

I haven't tried it against a 60 elite yet

Actually, it'll be more likely to be 61-62. They can have somewhere in the order of 10-30k hp. You simply won't be able to do damage fast enough. No single class can. Your best bet is stuns/distracts and CC's until it becomes a main target.

I don't tell the warrior how to tank, or the mage how to fight...I'd suggest doing the same with the hunter.

Actually, its common to tell them how to play often. Its called coordinating. For anything important, everyone is told what to do.

Not tell them what to do? That's ludicrous. You simply can't do higher end instances without such coordination.

Your proposal is as if I don't hold back on fear in instances. Fearing everything all the time will get wipes. SS will too.

We started with gentle asking. We lectured. Still no go. That doesn't work when you demand your 'don't tell me how to play _insert class here_' BS when it interferes with the rest of the party. Inexperienced players consistently do this.

Good players know when *not* to use their skills, listening when and when not take action.

[Brista]

Your proposal is as if I don't hold back on fear in instances. Fearing everything all the time will get wipes. SS will too.

Yes but don't you see what we're saying, Drasca?

Fear is an excellent tool used intelligently by a good player. So is Serpent Sting. I have, on my Warlocks, joined many groups where I've been told No Fear. Are they right to tell me that? Despite the fact that I have never pulled additional aggro with Fear on a 'Lock and I believe I know exactly when it is a good move and when it's a bad move. I have saved groups from wiping by using Fear. I'm sure you have too

If they are not right, then why do the same thing yourself to a different class?

Again, you refer back to the communications problems you had with that player. What does your group dynamic that one time have to do with the skill in general? Surely the scientist in you rejects the idea that a theorem is proven on a single datum :)

[Drasca]

Small clarification. Are we stalking about venom sting dot or serpent sting stat debuffer? I've been trying to talk about the dot.

Are they right to tell me that?[right][snapback]78911[/snapback][/right]

Most of the time, yes, especially if they know the instance better than you. The more competent the leadership the better, of course.

While I've saved instances with fear, I've also wiped them too -- but sometimes then I use it when there's nothing else to lose. Its a dangerous spell to use. So's the venom sting, and any dot.

One rule is you always let maximum CC options play out and then warriors pull aggro.


You assume its a single datum. I've had this hunter problem repeatedly. Rogues I've played with have since stopped, because I've been playing with higher quality rogue players. The good hunters I've been playing recently have avoided use of venom sting dots too.

Oh, by universal damage debuff increase, I mean expose armor, sunder, and curse of elements/shadows, which increases damage for everyone. Sunder increases all physical damage, Curse of _lower resist here_ increases all damage of that type.

That's a universal damage increase. Venom sting or any dot debuff by comparison is doing nil damage for the limited debuff slots available.

[Treesh]

Small clarification. Are we stalking about venom sting dot or serpent sting stat debuffer? I've been trying to talk about the dot.
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There is no venom sting for hunters. There is serpent sting (the DoT), scorpid sting (drops strength and agility), viper sting (steals mana from the target). Again you show your ignorance of the class that you are trying to "teach".

Edit: Bah. I allowed myself to be trolled again. Ah well.

[Jarulf]

Two small questions, what does DoT and CC mean??? Thanks.

[Treesh]

Two small questions, what does DoT and CC mean??? Thanks.
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Damage over Time and Crowd Control. I also use Heal over Time frequently as well.

[Drasca]

There is no venom sting for hunters
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Poison dot, stat debuffer, and mana-drain shot. I could care less about blizzard names. Do I expect you to know nightfall talent allows proc'ing of shadow trance buff which makes instant shadowbolt? No. All you need to know is chance to proc instant shadowbolt with conditions.

I'd rather classify real usable information than arbitary names, tyvm.

[Treesh]

Poison dot, stat debuffer, and mana-drain shot. I could care less about blizzard names. Do I expect you to know nightfall talent allows proc'ing of shadow trance buff which makes instant shadowbolt? No. All you need to know is chance to proc instant shadowbolt with conditions.

I'd rather classify real usable information than arbitary names, tyvm.
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Then don't slap an arbitrary name on a sting yourself and don't change what you arbitrarily named it too.

Best not to venom sting dot everything either.[right][snapback]78526[/snapback][/right]

And later on:

A lot of bad hunters try to open autoshoot with venomsting,
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And especially here:

At least no serpent sting or dots.
<snip>

In 5 man LBRS, a hunter kept trying to venom sting, and it guaranteed extra wipes.

<snip>

But preferably, no serpent please.&nbsp;
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So, which do you want to call it? Venom sting or Serpent Sting? Why not just choose the "arbitrary" name that blizzard decided on?

These all show a hinderance to communication rather than trying to facillitate it. If you are making a post, detailing why something is good or bad, at least have the common decency and common courtesy to at least let other people know just what in the hell you're talking about. 30 seconds on Thottbot or Allakhazam or any other site out there that tells you the skills/talents available for a class will tell you what the specific name is so you can avoid confusion. If you are in game, you get some leniency of course because you're busy. Here, you are posting on a board and have plenty of time to spend the 30 seconds to make sure everyone can understand what skill you are talking about without wasting their time and your time as well.

Edit: And if you are too lazy to hit another webpage to check, you can always put in "or whatever the DoT sting is called" and someone here will mention the real name so it can be used later. I'd much rather have that than some made up name where you have to guess what skill someone is talking about.

[Brista]

I've been trying to talk about the dot.

Yes, that's what I've taken you to mean

While I've saved instances with fear, I've also wiped them too -- but sometimes then I use it when there's nothing else to lose.

And that's my point. The way you come across - whether it's a fair reflection of what you think and how you act in game I don't know - is that a tactically correct use by a Hunter of Serpent Sting that had a good effect in the play would result in a kick and a branding of "bad hunter"

Sometimes as well players take calculated risks. I might shoot something and dot it to generate threat faster since both the mage and the priest seem to be in trouble. In fact the mage could have sheeped it had I just left it alone, or maybe me pulling it off them would have saved them

One rule is you always let maximum CC options play out and then warriors pull aggro.

1) Maximum CC options will often result in all mobs CC-ed and no mobs being killed.
2) Not every group has warriors

Pedantry aside, a hunter pulling an add off a healer and then soloing it is CC. I suspect you're underestimating the survivability of a Spirit Bond Hunter with a 0.7 speed pet saving all mana for Improved Mend Pet and ping-ponging aggro between self and pet. In any event if the hunter can solo it that's one mob that won't eat the healer, so cc at the price of neutralising the hunter. Seduce and Sheep do not work on every type of mob. Damage, afaik, does

You assume its a single datum. I've had this hunter problem repeatedly.

It sounds to me like the reason you have this problem repeatedly is because you're making it a problem regardless of whether or not it is tactically unsound. If you said to me in a group let me handle humanoids on the healer with Seduce, you stay on the main target I'd happily oblige. And would Serpent Sting the main target. And would, presumably, get kicked

If you're having problems convincing Hunters to let you handle the strays then I agree that's strange and rather illogical. I'm certainly not advocating dotting Sheep nor am I requesting that Hunters should be encouraged to spend the battle soloing a stray rather than supporting the Main Assist

Rogues I've played with have since stopped, because I've been playing with higher quality rogue players.

Stopped what? Stopped using Garrotte and Rupture? Do you kick them if they do? Against a heavily armoured opponent they are losing damage and adding excess immediate threat by eschewing these attacks.

The good hunters I've been playing recently have avoided use of venom sting dots too.

This seems circular. You define good hunter as someone who doesn't use Serpent Sting and enforce it. You get some idiots who persist in using it on stuff that the group wants to seduce/sheep. You get some good little boys who do as they're told and don't dot. And you get the really expert Hunters who use all their skills appropriately but who avoid your groups like the plague ;)

Heh, well maybe not but do you see my point? It does seem to me that you are enforcing mediocrity

Oh, by universal damage debuff increase, I mean expose armor, sunder, and curse of elements/shadows, which increases damage for everyone. Sunder increases all physical damage, Curse of _lower resist here_&nbsp; increases all damage of that type.

Ah I see thanks for the clarification

That's a universal damage increase. Venom sting or any dot debuff by comparison is doing nil damage for the limited debuff slots available.

Again you use words sloppily. "Nil" does not mean 490 damage over 15 seconds. It means zero damage over 15 seconds. (490 is approximately the same threat as a 700ish heal, meaning it may let the Priest throw an extra Heal without pulling the mob back from me). Curse of elements/shadow does not increase damage for everyone. It increases damage for players using those type of attacks.

While there may be situations where the 8 debuff limit is a problem I don't often find this to be true in 5 man groups and I've never found it to be true when I pull a stray off the healer. In fact many times I've pulled it and killed it with the only debuffs being Serpent Sting and the even more marginal Hunter's Mark

I think all I would ask is that you discuss it with people in a more open-minded way. This digression started with you mentioning bad hunters using dots. I hope you see that seeing a dot is not proof of an idiot :)

[Drasca]

me handle humanoids on the healer with Seduce, you stay on the main target I'd happily oblige. And would Serpent Sting the main target. And would, presumably, get kicked[right][snapback]78940[/snapback][/right]

Get kicked? Not for main target. Lectured. SS on main target isn't vital either way--with the exception of 40 man raid target with only 5 debuff slots. Raid leader might kick you for that if you do it too often after being asked not to.

We both agree on illogical behaviour of SS on CC'able targets, especially ones meant to be re-CC'ed. That's kick-worthy, no?

If you're having problems convincing Hunters to let you handle the strays then I agree that's strange and rather illogical.

Stopped what? Stopped using Garrotte and Rupture? Do you kick them if they do?

If it causes wipes, yes. Any dot, any intentional insubordination (i.e. repetition of setting on our toes after asked not to), that means a kick if it was my party.

We lecture rogues about expose armor too. In fact, it is usually more experienced rogues lecturing less experienced rogues about it--rather than other classes.

Let's be honest, wouldn't you take this to be more credible if I played a hunter as one of my mains?

Against a heavily armoured opponent they are losing damage and adding excess immediate threat by eschewing these attacks.

Against a 10k+ health enemy, their individual damage won't be enough to reach the kill in 3-10 seconds threshold. Even 500 dps would take 20 seconds, and yours is 300 tops while the enemy remains at range.

If the enemy can kill you in 10 seconds... off-tanking isn't going to fly.

You define good hunter as someone who doesn't use Serpent Sting and enforce it.

The key requirement is don't use SS when asked. If you don't play good boy in large raid instances, you simply won't be invited.

Its illogical to take away CC options after gently being asked not to. You know it. I know it. Opening with sting does that. When coordinating, I ask hunters not to open with sting, and use their scatter, clip and kite skills.

Also, as great as off-tanking is, its just sometimes not enough. Do I underestimate? No, some enemies simply have brute numbers on their side in terms of damage. Beyond that, you could be CC'ing at least one target and off-tanking or DPS'ing another. CC first. If the enemy is relatively solo-able, and any number of tactics may work, I lay off and just let the mobs die at our feet.

There is a difficulty threshhold when enemy numbers need to be culled and reduces the types and success rate of tactics available. Eventually, with particularly difficult mobs, Serpent sting will interfere with debuffs get pushed aside, and off-tanking is an action of futility against many mobs.

Believe it or not, I do ask what skills and talents every class brings to the table and design tactics around available abilities. Why else would I request cat form track humanoid out of druids (fairly rare event outside of experienced players I'd say), name several hunter advanced CC options and combos in this thread alone, and other rarely discussed but cool and enjoyable abilities like detect magic off magi, mind numbing poison off rogues, and curse removal from druids.

I've done that. I know when SS works and when it doesn't Raid instances on main targets, its going to get pushed off or push off better debuff. When AoE'ing, you're free to do anything you'd like so long as you don't steal aggro at the wrong time and place. 5 man instances without warlocks? Debuff slots aren't a problem, and you don't have a sympathetic or understanding ear.

Admittedly, I've let these posts get a bit sloppy because of knee jerk reactions. You don't play in these situations (yet? as I'm unsure of your level), you don't play alongside warlocks, and you don't play where use of your skills becomes a problem.

Again you use words sloppily. "Nil" does not mean 490 damage over 15 seconds. It means zero damage over 15 seconds.

30 dps against a 10k health target in 15 seconds = approx 5% health after 15 seconds. Hmm. Not enough. Far far less if this debuff is pushed off. Or, it may push off a higher damage debuff.

It increases damage for players using those type of attacks.

That's a given, but its increasing damage from many sources as opposed to one, and increasing damage more than any one dot.

I still consider these universal for a reason: with trio of options of armor reduction, lowering resists of arcane & shadow or fire & (if they ever fix it) frost, that increases damages of most types (and all these damage buffers may stack with 3 players). Only nature and holy are missing. In addition, once seeing an increased damage of a particular type, other players can focus using that type of damage. Focusing on Moonfire for druids rather than nature, switching to arcane or fire for mages, fire option for shamans, shadow rather than holy for priests, and locks choose whatever's convinient between shadow and fire while their pets gain from melee debuffs as well.

While there may be situations where the 8 debuff limit is a problem

May? Debuff limit is the warlock's plague. Put your SS aside when playing with locks on main targets. A warlock can easily output 4-5 debuff slots alone with his dots, curses and channeled spells. If he's a certain talent spec, that can up to 7, possibly all 8 if he's particularly unlucky.

How would you feel if your auto-shoot took up a slot and then was pushed off.

The main reasons you don't play alongside locks (and sympathize why the debuff limit hurts so much) seem to be:

1) Simply not many locks on servers in general. Second lowest % played class.

2) Limiations of 5 man instances. Having a lock is an 'extra' outside the holy trinity of warrior/mage/priest.

If you wanted a rogue or a paladin in addition, you certainly cannot play alongside a lock with that player limit. Repeating classes only add to the class variety limit.

2 rogues, 2 Paladins and yourself? You're the only one whose debuffs last more than 3 seconds. Of course you don't see why debuffs are a problem.

Hunter's mark, venom sting, pushed off? Still too incremental compared to your auto shot to matter. Your damage should still benefit from sunder armor, and trueshot aura.

I don't often find this to be true in 5 man groups

This is where we differ. 5 man group instance mobs are individually a lot easier to solo.

I'm pretty sure you can off-tank any number of 5 man instance mobs. That changes when the mobs get rougher. What happens when the mob may kill you in 3-4 hits? or 1-2? That is where CC will prevent more damage than your talents will mitigate and heal you with.

In any event if the hunter can solo it that's one mob that won't eat the healer, so cc at the price of neutralising the hunter. Seduce and Sheep do not work on every type of mob. Damage, afaik, does

If it drops you, it'll go on next on its hate list... and who's that? Healer. So we've lost ranged dps, and our healer's next upon the hate list and has built up quite a bit compartively against the warrior. All this while the warrior may have to fight for aggro against you.

Hmm, assuming we have both mage and warlock, we're likely to have a healer in form of priest or druid as well. So we have additional forms of either shackle or sleep appropriate to the instance. So... what can't be CC'ed? We've covered humanoid, beast, dragonkin, demon, elemental and undead. That's everything

I hope you see that seeing a dot is not proof of an idiot&nbsp; :)

I'd say bravo, you've demonstrated mostly good demeanor and good play in general. You are most certainly an elegant player, but that is not to say you're going to be experienced or sympathetic in areas you don't face day-to-day where other players have learned better already.

Tit for tat on open-mindedness please. SS can and will be a problem when there's CC and debuff limits involved. As I play a warlock with many CC options and easily approaches the debuff limit solo these problems are the norm for me. In raids, Sting debuff dots interferes with other debuffs on main target, and it prevents CC options from being played.

No one will lecture you when you use the right skill at the right time, but I'm trying to warn you about what is the wrong time.

I don't enjoy SS for the reasons above. I don't enjoy it even more because newbish hunters always open with it, hunter's mark, pet-attack and auto-shot, completely ignoring their other tactical options. There are players who insist using a tactical option they've used all their early careers that simply won't hold water in later events, regardless of the situation. You defend your tactics, but fail to conceive or concede when it won't work or become a problem. That's dangerously noobish, wouldn't you agree?