This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Drasca]

Some of which (like summonings and healthstones you only need on there for convience since you will probably never do those in battle)[right][snapback]78596[/snapback][/right]

Small nit. Never say never. If I had the points, I'd put two into master conjurer for faster times I've made healthstones mid-battle. Summoned both people and pets mid-battle too, though pets more consistently than people.

I've had a few people do alchemy mid battle too.

When my priest/warrior screams I need a HS, I'll give it to them and create one for myself immediately. Even more hectic is when they scream for a Soulstone. That's two mid-battle casts, if I don't have a SS ready.

Sure, it is best when everyone's prepped and priest is readily soulstoned, but reality sets in and chaos happens. Both casting create and use soulstone on a target when they need it is vital.

Though I can honestly say I've never cast eye of kilrogg mid battle (battle occurred after I've returned from eye), with the rest of the listed thottbot skills, I've used them all mid-battle. Absolutely every skill was vital to have at my command. Even trash buffs like unending breath means yet another buff to be dispelled before my soul link comes down.

Ask me about when and why I use a skill, and I'll return with all the important details. Some are less obvious, or are weighed in a toss-up with other skills, but all have a place.

I use them all.

[Quark]

So have I. Given away about 60 FL so far. It isn't enough. Rogues keep blind powder to a sparing use due to economic limitations. On my server supply demand curve is so bad , 5g might either get you a stack, or only 5 fadeleaf. In closed economies like guilds, you'll still require more suppliers than consumers. You can go flower picking all you want, but if the rogues don't restrict their blind powder usage, it'll never be enough.
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Not a problem on our non-PvP server. You see, on Normal servers you don't have nearly as many Rogues using the crappy Blind-to-continue-stunlock technique every freaking chance they get to kill another person. I hate that tactic, and that tactic is why Fadeleaf is in short supply on your server.

For PvE purposes, I'm working on my second stack, ever, for Ramala. I've never had a supply problem, and I never will.

[Kevin]

I don't enjoy when warriors do that mid battle. End battle, intentionally popping CC is fine. Mid-battle, that CC'ed target needs to stay CC'ed until others are eliminated.

Where the hell did you get a thunder clap mid battle from? I said a charge pull, then clap. If you don't miss with your swing the mages can start casting the sheep while you are charging and the CC doesn't break. Of course it's stupid to break CC early.

If a target is CC'ed next to the healer, that's because its gone rogue and the healer's built the most hate, so its bee-lined toward the healer and the rest of us sheep/charm it.

That's right sheep don't wander. I forgot that. Sorry I keep forgetting how much better you see the battle.

My main beef is that warriors/hunters/etc try to aggro through attacks while the rest of us are trying to CC, thereby popping it that steps on our toes. In the few seconds you think you can get an intercept/TC in, I'm already casting and it'll CC/repop before you draw aggro. The problem is compounded if its a priority target, like firebrand invokers, or dragonkin taelons, which will aoe the entire party.
That's likely use of fade. Great skill, but not guaranteed to be available.

That's why I said it was part of the pull. Ask the mages who play with me. In the situations where this can be used it is a fantastic pull method. I don't clap if a mage was casting on the charge and I miss on the swing so don't have rage right away.

The problem lies in that the healer is on top of the hate list when battles longer than the initial CC. Unsapped, or Unsheeped, they charge toward the healer in an intense battle, then become poly/charmed again at the healer's feet, further building hate. Someone inevitably pops the second CC, and steals aggro but not before the healer takes a potentially fatal hit if the healer is right next to it.

If the warrior uses AoE aggros that don't break sheep (dem shout and piercing howl) this doesn't happen, they stay mad at the warrior. This is one of the reasons a warrior can tank better than a paladin, I have ways to get aggro without doing damage.

I've seen healers drop when they don't have to. That's my beef.

For engagements under a minute, sure you may have enough hate, but anytime where the mob has been CC'ed to near full duration at least once before--there needs to be some distance between the healer and the to-be-popped CC.

I've been in long fights where the mages sheeped the same mob 3 times. It was never mad at the healer, it was mad it me or the mages when it popped and when I broke it with a sunder it usually didn't matter.

[Tal]

My main beef is that warriors/hunters/etc try to aggro through attacks while the rest of us are trying to CC, thereby popping it that steps on our toes. In the few seconds you think you can get an intercept/TC in, I'm already casting and it'll CC/repop before you draw aggro. The problem is compounded if its a priority target, like firebrand invokers, or dragonkin taelons, which will aoe the entire party.
That's likely use of fade. Great skill, but not guaranteed to be available.[right][snapback]78614[/snapback][/right]

Mid-battle its better for a mob to be intercepted and THEN cc'd rather than CC'd which can be resisted. This has the effect of keeping your tank on the top of that mob's hate list rather than the squishies it was bee-lining for.

The problem lies in that the healer is on top of the hate list when battles longer than the initial CC. Unsapped, or Unsheeped, they charge toward the healer in an intense battle, then become poly/charmed again at the healer's feet, further building hate. Someone inevitably pops the second CC, and steals aggro but not before the healer takes a potentially fatal hit if the healer is right next to it.[right][snapback]78614[/snapback][/right]

Proximity to a CC'd mob does not generate additional threat. The AI checks for damage debuffs before proximity upon pop.

For engagements under a minute, sure you may have enough hate, but anytime where the mob has been CC'ed to near full duration at least once before--there needs to be some distance between the healer and the to-be-popped CC.
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While it is always best for a healer to keep distance to any of the mobs proximity does not equal hate generation. If anything the cc'er will be the one on the top of the hate list. Times you have seen a mob beeline a healer upon pop is usually due to the healer healing the PC highest on the hate list shortly after pop.

[KiloVictor]

The pet is always +1 target.
Curses. DoTs are dangerous to use no matter what. A lot of bad hunters try to open autoshoot with venomsting, which is bad in many ways. Curses however don't interfere with CC options, and can actually be applied on top of CC options Except freeze trap... curses may break that, I'm unsure. need more testing with that.
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My purely subjective superstition is that Curse of Elements lengthens the time a Freeze Trap will hold a CC'd mob. My rationalization is that it makes it more difficult for the mob to make a frost resist roll each tick, and therefore lengths the average duration of the trap.

I should get off my duff and get hard numbers, but it sure seems to help with 60+ elites , so it's part of our standard CC now.

Kv

[MongoJerry]

My purely subjective superstition is that Curse of Elements lengthens the time a Freeze Trap will hold a CC'd mob. My rationalization is that it makes it more difficult for the mob to make a frost resist roll each tick, and therefore lengths the average duration of the trap.

I should get off my duff and get hard numbers, but it sure seems to help with 60+ elites , so it's part of our standard CC now.

Very likely. I'm 80% sure that having the priest talent that reduces the chance to resist shadow spells by 10% increases the length of time Mind Control works *dramatically*. But, like you, I need to actually get off my duff and get some hard numbers. Maybe even go out and get some gold, so I can afford the respec for the testing.

[Drasca]

Where the hell did you get a thunder clap mid battle from?  [right][snapback]78630[/snapback][/right]

Ok. There wasn't the word pull. I only saw charge, and assumed you meant intercept when I've been describing mid battle throughout because of a CC next to the healer.

If the warrior uses AoE aggros that don't break sheep

That's good. Ok, I've learned something new, in fights where its sheep and charge are in close proximity, you can do this.

I've been in long fights where the mages sheeped the same mob 3 times.  It was never mad at the healer, it was mad it me or the mages when it popped and when I broke it with a sunder it usually didn't matter.

Breaking with sunder's fine. Let me show you when it *is* mad at the healer.

Our initial assumptions aren't the same apprantly. You assume a charge pull, TC first. I'm assuming situations where charges cannot be made, because its too dangerous to. Most of the time I don't see charge pulls because there are too many mobs to safely charge. If the mobs number below four... any tactics will work.

I'm assuming there are somewhere around 5-10 targets (UBRS situation), 1-2 sapped first, then warrior bow pulls, and 1-2 mages intercept poly. 10-20 seconds have passed at this point, and sapped targets will become unsapped in 15-25. 2-3 warriors are busy engaging 4-6 targets, 1-2 of which are priority. Those now unsapped targets, being away from the warriors all this time, must head toward healers, and they must become engaged or CC'ed.

At that point, those unsapped targets only gathered aggro from healers, as sap doesn't aggro. If the rogues are on the-ball, they'll stun-lock the now unsapped targets before the healer is attacked. Attentive mages will make a decision to either re-sheep their initial target, or change sheep to the target next to healer.

If you're lucky, you, or someone else, might get an aggro shout, or these enemies will be snared before they reach the healer and a priest can just fade and then the aggro is shifted. However, if its just a charm or poly alone, that's not enough aggro to shift away from the healer when it pops. Its been building aggro from a bow pull, then a second CC.

Same thing happens mid-battle when fearing general drakk's bodyguards if the guard has ran past healers. After one or two fears, they'll bee line directly for healers because its impossible for warriors to be everywhere at once.

[Drasca]

I should get off my duff and get hard numbers, but it sure seems to help with 60+ elites , so it's part of our standard CC now.
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Same. I need to work with a hunter to check if curses will break freeze trap.

However, I'm sure curse of elements doesn't work for frost mage spells--unless that's changed with a patch. Test server people, anyone?

Very likely.  I'm 80% sure that having the priest talent that reduces the chance to resist shadow spells by 10% increases the length of time Mind Control works *dramatically*
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Before respeccing, may I suggest testing control against a warlock's Curse of Shadow'ed target?

[Drasca]

I hate that tactic, and that tactic is why Fadeleaf is in short supply on your server.[right][snapback]78629[/snapback][/right]

No, we have a short supply because approximately 50% of the population is made of rogues, while fadeleaf is mostly harvested by herbalists passing through levl 30's-40's zones which is maybe 5-10% of the pop.

10 consumer for every 1 supplier. Can't get around economics. There's simply a lot more demand then supply. What're the AH prices of fadeleaf on your server? Hmm?

For PvE purposes, I'm working on my second stack, ever, for Ramala.  I've never had a supply problem, and I never will.

What that tells me is that you conserve blind powder. Your consumption is low, and supply problems nil because you choose to conserve, thus removing blind powder from battle-to-battle CC use, and left to a last-stand trick.

[Darian]

I'm assuming there are somewhere around 5-10 targets (UBRS situation), 1-2 sapped first, then warrior bow pulls, and 1-2 mages intercept poly. 10-20 seconds have passed at this point, and sapped targets will become unsapped in 15-25. 2-3 warriors are busy engaging 4-6 targets, 1-2 of which are priority. Those now unsapped targets, being away from the warriors all this time, must head toward healers, and they must become engaged or CC'ed.
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You know, I'm suddenly understanding why my attitude toward tanking seems to run into criticism from folks who aren't used to running with the same people as me; the only time there are ever more than two mobs not crowd-controlled in my usual groups, it's because it's a complete trash-mob pull on which the AoEers in the group just go nuts. (And, of course, if the pull is a sheep/shackle/seduce pull, every mob in the pull starts out with the sheeper/shackler/seducer on their hate list, which refers back to the point I was making earlier about the priest chaining hate.) Other than that, the only multiple-active-mob pulls I generally run into are dragonkin in UBRS.

"2-3 warriors are busy..." Man, except for the couple if times Galreth's gone on runs with me, the very idea of another warrior in the group is completely mind-boggling to me. There haven't been any other warriors to engage targets... ;)

[mjdoom]

You know, I'm suddenly understanding why my attitude toward tanking seems to run into criticism from folks who aren't used to running with the same people as me; the only time there are ever more than two mobs not crowd-controlled in my usual groups, it's because it's a complete trash-mob pull on which the AoEers in the group just go nuts.  (And, of course, if the pull is a sheep/shackle/seduce pull, every mob in the pull starts out with the sheeper/shackler/seducer on their hate list, which refers back to the point I was making earlier about the priest chaining hate.)  Other than that, the only multiple-active-mob pulls I generally run into are dragonkin in UBRS.

"2-3 warriors are busy..."  Man, except for the couple if times Galreth's gone on runs with me, the very idea of another warrior in the group is completely mind-boggling to me.  There haven't been any other warriors to engage targets... ;)
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And even when Galreth comes it is more common for the CC options to reduce the pull to one mob anyway so I can play around in Battle/Zerk stance and have a grand old time :) :wub: Crowd Control :wub:

- mjdoom

[Quark]

What that tells me is that you conserve blind powder. Your consumption is low, and supply problems nil because you choose to conserve, thus removing blind powder from battle-to-battle CC use, and left to a last-stand trick.
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I'm sorry, I don't remember ever needing Blind on non-bad pulls :blink:. The game's not designed that such CC is necessary, and since it's on a 5 minute timer you get used to not using it. Thus, I use it on bad pulls. If it's a bad night, I might go through 4 Blinds. That's still less than 2 Fadeleaf.

Is it playing conservative to not use a heal pot and instead wait till the end of battle to eat? No, you only use heal pots when they're necessary because they are limited and on a timer. That doesn't mean there's a supply problem, that just means you're playing smart. Is it playing conservative to only cast Evasion when you're actually getting attacked? If you don't need a skill with a cooldown, don't use it (excluding stuff like Cold Blood).

[Drasca]

haven't been any other warriors to engage targets... ;)
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:w00t: Must be wild to play with you then. I've done bits of UBRS with just one warrior. Not pretty at all. 2 warrior minimum.

Imagine this: When you're knocked back, by guards, the beast, or dragonkin, the second warrior immediately picks up the slack. Instead of the enemy mobs going wild on your party, they're held in check. Of course, it takes some coordination and understanding secondary tank doesn't taunt off each primary, but it works beautifully.

I don't even think I want to engage General drakk with just one warrior. I have vague memories of doing so before... and the group wiping. Not pretty.

Note that there's a when warrior bow pulls, then CC intercepts, intitial aggro from the entire group is to the warrior, secondary mob aggro is to the CC option. However, saps take exception. Saps have no aggro by themselves, so only healing and other non damage skills aggros them.

I want the healers away from the CC not to stop aggro, but to get distance so they won't be whacked when the CC pops, intentionally or not (charm is guaranteed to intermittently pop... sheeps can be refreshed). If intentionally, hopefully the sunder or other skill will stick, but that's not guaranteed. I don't want to see a Mortal strike finishing the priest when they can just mosey a few yards in the other direction while someone else engages it.

Not to mention cleaves and other physical aoe attacks... Oof.

CC options to reduce the pull to one mob anyway so I can play around in Battle/Zerk stance and have a grand old time  Crowd Control 

Hehe exactly, and you trust your CC'ers to CC, and not interfere. Then smack everything else around.

Its worst when charmed targets are hit. Charmed target hit, succubus (who has the aggro), succubus dies, Charm option gone, healer is likely next on the aggro list. Paaaaain.

Then again, you can run around un zerk/battle stance and whack everything else

[Skandranon]

:w00t: Must be wild to play with you then. I've done bits of UBRS with just one warrior. Not pretty at all.  2 warrior minimum.
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I think this might be another way in which the Horde/Alliance divide is causing an unnoticed divergence in views. On the Alliance side, a lot of the folks inclined to play platewearers end up as paladins, which are significantly less functional than warriors in a number of ways. I've been in a large number of raids where the only true tank has been a single arms/fury specced warrior, just because there aren't that many warriors total, much less prot specced ones.

In my Horde playing experience, I've found it almost refreshingly easy to find warriors for groups. I've seen raids fail to form simply because there wasn't a warrior around, and there isn't any number of paladins that can do a warrior's job quite as well as a warrior can.

[Brista]

The pet is always +1 target.
Curses. DoTs are dangerous to use no matter what. A lot of bad hunters try to open autoshoot with venomsting, which is bad in many ways. Curses however don't interfere with CC options, and can actually be applied on top of CC options Except freeze trap... curses may break that, I'm unsure. need more testing with that.[right][snapback]78600[/snapback][/right]

Could one of you clarify this please?

Generally with my hunter, unless I'm filling in as main tank or main healer, I've found that it doesn't matter too much what I choose to do, so long as I do it quickly. Whether I help the main assist kill the main target fast or grab some stray that's found its way to our healer and off-tank with my pet. In my dps role it seems to me that the quicker I eat up the monster's green bar the better

It sounds to me that you have the idea that the hunter would be trying to shoot something that we'd subsequently need to sheep. That doesn't make much sense to me since why start shooting something that the mage is going to heal to full?

So far it seems to me that my role in groups is either
1) to assist in quickly killing the main target. Serpent Sting helps here and there is no prospect of the mob being sheeped
or
2) to engage a mob that is attacking a squishie with the pet and basically solo it while the rest of the group carries on with whatever it was doing without something eating the healer. Again there's no point sheeping it and Serpent Sting speeds the job up

I'm not saying you're wrong Drasca, but you seem to be assuming a third role for a hunter which I haven't figured out yet

[Kevin]

"2-3 warriors are busy..."  Man, except for the couple if times Galreth's gone on runs with me, the very idea of another warrior in the group is completely mind-boggling to me.  There haven't been any other warriors to engage targets... ;)
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I've had another character wearing plate with me, I think 5 times. Skybreak in Scarlet Monestary for one run, Sharanna in Sunken Temple one time, Galreth and another paladin in the Baron raid, and Galreth and Sharanna in BRD. In 2 of those cases I was not MT and it was odd. I will admit I wasn't quite sure what I should be doing some of the time so I assisted on the primary target or intercepted mobs that couldn't be CC'd because all the CC options were in play or it was a type that couldn't have CC on it.

I pretty much never have a rogue or druid with me. I get a warlock here or there 2 hunters now and then, a couple of mages most of the time and the same priest always so far. So in some instances there is only one mob that isn't CC'd. In others the pull is me handling 2 to 4 elites that we have no way to CC. My normal core has become 2 mages a priest and then whatever else happens to be around, which means either a lot of CC or no CC. So this is where my heavy handed no one is expendable and I will chase that mob back comes from. Depending on positioning and what peels there might not be time for them to bring the mob back to me before they are dead or else the healer is getting aggro from healing them, or they put up mana shield and chew up much of their damage dealing ability for later. I know I need a lot of help in the damage department, I'm up to sustaining around 60-70 DPS in fights where I'm one hander and shield now I think, at L59. Of course with two mages we start using a lot of AoE even when all the mobs are elites. If the game had a better way to switch targets this would work out a lot nicer for me too. I usually only fail to keep 2 elites locked against AoE when I miss a target switch or I just miss with swings a lot.

The BRD run with 3 people spec'd to tank was quite different. The CC was the pally and me engaging other targets while the hunter and holy spec priest provided as much DPS as they could to the primary target. I had a lot of fun. Heck a lot of the fun I have is playing with a new group dynamic pretty much every instance I am in, except for sure I have Treesh with me as my healer all the time and I usually have the same two mages but not always. I expect with more Lurkers getting to 60 that I'm going to see even more different groups now.

[Darian]

So this is where my heavy handed no one is expendable and I will chase that mob back comes from.[right][snapback]78714[/snapback][/right]

Yep, yep, yep. Yet another example of how dependent this game is on group composition. We get wrapped up in what works for us based on our experiences, and forget that a completely different way of doing things is probably just as valid and effective. In some ways that's good, because it encourages working with people you're familiar with. In other ways, it's bad; I imagine Treesh and I would drive one another crazy if we teamed up, and the same with you and Griz -- not because any of us is doing things "wrong," but because we're doing things differently.

(Then again, there are some things that are just plain wrong. Warriors who don't Sunder, for example... ;))

[KiloVictor]

Could one of you clarify this please?

Generally with my hunter, unless I'm filling in as main tank or main healer, I've found that it doesn't matter too much what I choose to do, so long as I do it quickly. Whether I help the main assist kill the main target fast or grab some stray that's found its way to our healer and off-tank with my pet. In my dps role it seems to me that the quicker I eat up the monster's green bar the better

It sounds to me that you have the idea that the hunter would be trying to shoot something that we'd subsequently need to sheep. That doesn't make much sense to me since why start shooting something that the mage is going to heal to full?

So far it seems to me that my role in groups is either
1) to assist in quickly killing the main target. Serpent Sting helps here and there is no prospect of the mob being sheeped
or
2) to engage a mob that is attacking a squishie with the pet and basically solo it while the rest of the group carries on with whatever it was doing without something eating the healer. Again there's no point sheeping it and Serpent Sting speeds the job up

I'm not saying you're wrong Drasca, but you seem to be assuming a third role for a hunter which I haven't figured out yet
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Not speaking for Drasca of course, but I think the point he was making is that once you've got a DoT ticking on a mob, you're committed to killing it because you can't CC it further. At best you'll have to offtank it or kite it around, and that takes one of your DPS players out of the fight.

In UBRS for example, our Hunters can't solo offtank for very long before they wind up dead, so they chain trap for CC instead. If a mob breaks for the healers or casters, their standard routine is Distracting Shot/Scatter Shot/Feign Death/Freeze Trap to get the mob locked up wihout offtanking it. That allows them to focus fire back on the MA's target sooner (they usually leave the pet on the MA's target all along for a bit more DPS), which is of course a Good Thing.

If somebody's DoT is ticking on the mob, it doesn't work. So our rule is no DoTs in the first five seconds or so, until we're sure that everybody's on the same target.

Kv

edited: "a mobs"? Sheesh.

[mjdoom]

Yep, yep, yep.  Yet another example of how dependent this game is on group composition.  We get wrapped up in what works for us based on our experiences, and forget that a completely different way of doing things is probably just as valid and effective.  In some ways that's good, because it encourages working with people you're familiar with.  In other ways, it's bad; I imagine Treesh and I would drive one another crazy if we teamed up, and the same with you and Griz -- not because any of us is doing things "wrong," but because we're doing things differently.

(Then again, there are some things that are just plain wrong.  Warriors who don't Sunder, for example... ;))
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This is something I try not to fall into. I am willing to try almost anything to see how it works and sometimes it works better than others. The Rogue, Rogue, Priest, Priest, Hunter run on Scarlet Strat was quite the experience (and ultimately unsuccessful). I've been in 5-man groups with all cloth wearers (a bunch of 60s doing princess runs) to groups with 3/5 being plate wearers. I've continued on in instances after someone had to leave and made some significant progress with "gimped" 4-man groups. Sometimes these things work out and sometimes they fail miserably.

If you try out many different combinations it helps you to learn much better what the other classes are capable of. More often than not these crazy combinations can actually work. It may get a bit hairy at times but with good tactics many encounters are winnable. Putting yourself in many different situations helps you to be flexible when needed or When Things Go Wrong™.

I am talking mostly about 5-man experiences here though. In general I consider raids to be the end-game version of "easy mode" (with a 10-man on UBRS being the exception, although I've never personally done that) and I do them for fun and loot. Many times I'd prefer the challenge of 5-manning something and making it work. It doesn't always succeed, but that just makes you stronger for the next try (I'm pretty sure noone else on Stormrage has hit double-digits of 5-man runs in Scholomance).

Having a comfort level of playing with the same people/classes is very nice and helps to streamline the process but never underestimate the value of playing with others. You might just learn something new to take back to your usual group :)

- mjdoom

[Quark]

This is something I try not to fall into.  I am willing to try almost anything to see how it works and sometimes it works better than others.  The Rogue, Rogue, Priest, Priest, Hunter run on Scarlet Strat was quite the experience (and ultimately unsuccessful).

It was fun, and might have actually been successful if we had known Scarlet Stratholme better, and each other better. It just took a long time to get through the initial part with no true AoE. The problem, once you get to Scarlet, is that without a warrior (even a paladin won't do, I think) a bad pull = death. There's just no way around it. Too many elites bunched up closely together.

Going through an instance slow is fine, as long as you don't wipe. We did :(, but I think with practice and a well knit group that area can be done with what we had.

I've been in 5-man groups with all cloth wearers (a bunch of 60s doing princess runs) to groups with 3/5 being plate wearers.

Two paladins as healers in BRD was fun, but I wonder how it would have gone if we were level and equipment appropriate. The Highway probably would have been suicide, but I do think the Highway allows for some strange group combinations. Highway is fun if you have high CC and no tank - I've done Sap, 2 Freeze Traps, and Mind Control with 2 bears tanking. We were actually confused at first, because I had been in a more "typical" group that had a much harder time on the Highway.

I am talking mostly about 5-man experiences here though.  In general I consider raids to be the end-game version of "easy mode" (with a 10-man on UBRS being the exception, although I've never personally done that) and I do them for fun and loot.

We had a 13-14 man on part of UBRS last night (Arethor joined late). Group 3 was all Rogues, and it made things interesting for us since we had to pay attention to our life more, and be ready to run/heal/bandage sooner.

Many times I'd prefer the challenge of 5-manning something and making it work.  It doesn't always succeed, but that just makes you stronger for the next try (I'm pretty sure noone else on Stormrage has hit double-digits of 5-man runs in Scholomance).

I'd like to eventually :)