This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Treesh]

I usually use grace of air.  It gives me 5% to crit, and with flurry that is almost an extra hit, plus the damage of the crit.  Also, the bonus to Parry and Dodge.  The key thing is that those bonuses apply to both you and the warrior, where as only the warrior benefits from the windfury totem.  And it overwrites his sharpening stone.
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I frequently use both grace of air and strength of earth simply because they do help the hunter pet, the hunter shooting and me meleeing. When we get other people in the group with our dynamic duo, things change a bit, but most of the time it just isn't worth it to plop down a windfury totem for just us two (three with the pet). If I want it on my weapon, I can just throw it on my weapon since it only really helps me in most situations anyway.

[Gurnsey]

It definitely does not affect hunter pet's attacks, unless this is something that changed in 1.4.2.  What you may have seen was a hunter who talented to frenzy, which is really cool btw. :)  With minor testing on one druid a while ago (Swirly or Nashkara, I may have to borrow you again to retest), it doesn't work on druids when they are shapeshifted either.
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Well, with your and oldmandennis' info, it looks like Grace of Air really is better for our group.

Thanks!

[Quark]

Another observation I made during that run. The group was doing a real good job of getting aggro before Galreth could even target the mob :blink:. Since it was the casters/ranged guys doing it, mjdoom couldn't get a good placement to build aggro. It becomes even worse since many people run away when they get aggro, instead of standing still or running to the tank. So I would Ambush/Backstab, get aggro real quick. Let the mob hit me a few times while Galreth positioned and got some aggro, then Feint to toss the mob onto him.

Unfortunately, since the group never let up, it only worked about half the time. The other half it went right back to the caster. I would just like to point out my reasoning for attacking like that, so that other Rogues can try it, and casters that see this know what to do (nothing :P) if they don't want aggro again. The times it worked was really nice, I took a little damage but had a stable mob to easily hit Backstab on in trade.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Backstab Rogues hate mobs that switch aggro. Sometimes I would go 5 seconds after I tried my first Ambush before I actually got a hit in, because the damn mob was jumping between three people and I wasn't behind the target.

[Treesh]

Oh yeah, that reminds me.  Backstab Rogues hate mobs that switch aggro.  Sometimes I would go 5 seconds after I tried my first Ambush before I actually got a hit in, because the damn mob was jumping between three people and I wasn't behind the target.
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Amen Quark! Although I have gotten much better about ambushing/backstabbing from the side rather than actually behind because of aggro bounces. You'll generally get a "facing the wrong direction" error on your regular attacks after getting a backstab in that way, but at least you can get the backstab in. ;) Sinister strike seems to not throw up the error with that positioning as well. Just the regular attacks. It's a funny little thing.

[Drasca]

Muahahaha. As LL is a stragety forum, I don't regret making that long post full of class discussion even though people don't agree with me. Got you guys thinking!

Try playing a shaman if you want to use up all your interface buttons.  ;)
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I use the totem stomper UI mod for totem groups :) Makes putting down sets of totems much easier. I rotate about 80+ buttons, most direct skills, a lot of text, target and skill macros too.

Yep, I was writing a big big assessement. No way I would be able to remember everything. Glad there's input. However...

All shocks = instant, and a fairly big burst damage. That's till a lot of aggro. Best to hold off until warrior starts whacking it. Less than earth shock of course, but still not exactly gentle.

One sapped, one (or two) gouged/blinded, two being pounded on with blade flurry, one kicked (granted this is just a short one and doesn't really count as a whole another target).

Oh yeah. Blind. I love that poison... but 5 min cooldown. Unless you're a preperation rogue, and can afford the fadeleaf, that'll be rough to frequently use. Still very useful. I'd lump it in the .5 category of targets engaged for infrequency of use.

Kick is an interrupt, so its part of engaging one caster + potentially one other. Kicked target I'd lump in with the initial target.

Sapped... wears out. Part of the .5 category. Its a fire, (see if you destealth) and forget skill. Can't resap mid combat. Can resap if sap wears out.

Heh heh. My best wow friends are top rogues in my server, and we fully explain tricks and strategies whenever we duel. They're the best, but really do hold the attention of one target at a time (pvp excepted). 3 tops, but not directly or always due to combo point, and cooldown limitations. These limitations are why I have the .5 category and additional commentary of skills.

Rogues have one main target, then occasionally pull stops to take care of a side-mob. . . such as running back to gouge interrupt a runner toward healers, or kick pulling / caster interrupting.

Expose armor, while a debuff, is combo point limited and shouldn't be used where there's a tank needed aggro. CmbP alone relegates this debuff to Single target status.

While we're at rogue discussion, let's not forget distract. Rogues can engage an entire group for 10 seconds using that (so long as everyone is out of. This can be pivotal especially in undead stratholme side buying time against Baron's last knight guards, UBRS last dragon-orc patrol groups past beast bridge, and dire maul guards and ice trap just to name a few. Oh, tactical use of distract is even more important stealthing through LBRS, or solo-ing the barman for his shanker in BRD

Heck its useful vs players, as it turns their perspective for a second.

[Drasca]

.  I find that I use nearly every button here surprisingly regularly.
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Cough cough. 40 buttons? that's nothing. My total buttons out are 80-100. Sheesh, Treesh just doesn't understand that I use all buttons on base and additional pop bars plus macros, plus pet buttons.

80+! That's easily double your buttons out.

[Tharn]

As a Frost/Arcane mage (lvl 47 only, but the original question was starting in WC), I can go balistic with Frostbolts the second Sunder Armor is on. I however don't have much luck with warriors for tanking, usually it's Shamans and then I can Frostbolt right from the begining (shock+rockbitter ftw). I didn't overaggro lvl 44 shaman yesterday (we did ogres in Feralas) and I began casting 1 second after he began casting lightning bolt.

OTOH, if warrior is incompetent and uses Hamstring and whatnot, but no Sunder, I get aggro very, very quickly. I overaggro rogues with ease as well (if we duo or when I did Uld with rogue as MT). Simply put, with no high-threat skills used, I have to be very careful.

Now, during pull I must usually sheep, switch targets and then there's 2.5 sec casting time, which gives any tank time to get 2-3 hits in, so I don't have problems at all.

[Gurnsey]

Cough cough. 40 buttons? that's nothing. My total buttons out are 80-100. Sheesh, Treesh just doesn't understand that I use all buttons on base and additional pop bars plus macros, plus pet buttons.

80+! That's easily double your buttons out.
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Sheesh! What do you put on there? Even with every single skill out, I can't imagine having 80 buttons. Do you have a ton of inventory/macro buttons too? Can you even see anything through that?

[Drasca]

With Mogo and Marn duoing, we spread aggro around a lot. 
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Duo'ing? I've been assuming 5 man minimum. Opening with frost shock in 5+ man PvE instances interrupts a MT's aggro rhythm. Sure warriors can, but he shouldn't have to. Earthbind totem snares better if you want to slow incoming enemies.

Stoneclaw is actually better now than it used to be. 

I'd rather have that AoE nova totem if we're going to aoe. It'll draw attention and do damage. Smart mages will wait for aggro to build before unleashing AoE.

Magma totem is just as bad as Nova in popping CC's, as you have no real control over what mob it attacks. Magmas will sear a sheep just as a fire nova will.

If the priest doesn't pay attention to mobs, it's a poor priest.

Heh heh, I'd assumed too much here. I don't assume healers are blind to only the health bar, but that's what they are busy with.

I have noticed however, and have yelled at, healers to move position when there's a mob CC'ed right next to them. Soon as the CC pops, they'll be chomped at. They're good healers, but they're busy healing instead of saving their own bums (and saving us trouble of peeling it off the priest). Smart use of fade for priests helps greatly, but I'd prefer them to move before a sheep pops.

As for MBlast and SW:P, I'd prefer priests conserve mana and trust others to finish mobs. Just as you must trust your party to hold aggro, stun, crowd control, or do other vital roles you cannot perform yourself. I hated this one hunter trying to pull aggro onto himself whenever a sheep or charm popped by venom stinging it. That fubared any re-CC options and mucked with aggro balance. At least he didn't FD after doign so--however his selfish interference led to many unnecessary deaths.

[Gurnsey]

As a Frost/Arcane mage (lvl 47 only, but the original question was starting in WC), I can go balistic with Frostbolts the second Sunder Armor is on. I however don't have much luck with warriors for tanking, usually it's Shamans and then I can Frostbolt right from the begining (shock+rockbitter ftw). I didn't overaggro lvl 44 shaman yesterday (we did ogres in Feralas) and I began casting 1 second after he began casting lightning bolt.
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I wonder if Shaman can hold aggro on a single target better than a warrior, using Earthshock and Rockbiter. It's doubtful that we do more damage, but Eartshock and Rockbiter cause a massive amount of hate (enough to keep a target on me when I was tanking dragonkin for a rogue 4 levels higher than me who was utterly unloading). Will have to test this out sometime...

Warriors are definitely superior at holding the attention (and taking the blows) from multiple targets.

[Treesh]

Muahahaha. As LL is a stragety forum, I don't regret making that long post full of class discussion even though people don't agree with me. Got you guys thinking!

Since you're a troll, this is the last response from me.

I use the totem stomper UI mod for totem groups :) Makes putting down sets of totems much easier.

Pitiful. Absolutely pitiful. It's your choice of course, but that is lazy. Pure laziness. Glad I won't be grouping with you.

All shocks = instant, and a fairly big burst damage. That's till a lot of aggro. Best to hold off until warrior starts whacking it. Less than earth shock of course, but still not exactly gentle.

Did I say to open with it all the time? No. But it's still not a high aggro generator unless you crit and even then, you aren't going to be generating any additional aggro that say a rogue would with a crit ambush. The biggest problem is that shaman don't have ways to give up the aggro like a rogue does.

Oh yeah. Blind. I love that poison... but 5 min cooldown. Unless you're a preperation rogue, and can afford the fadeleaf, that'll be rough to frequently use. Still very useful. I'd lump it in the .5 category of targets engaged for infrequency of use.

Kick is an interrupt, so its part of engaging one caster + potentially one other. Kicked target I'd lump in with the initial target.

I've been giving away fadeleaf to the rogues in the guild if they're online at the same time I am. One fadeleaf gives you three blinding powders. I haven't even burned though one single stack of fadeleaf yet. I don't have preparation and I still use it frequently.

Eth has improved kick. Not only does she interrupt the cast, but she'll also completely silence the caster.

Expose armor, while a debuff, is combo point limited and shouldn't be used where there's a tank needed aggro. CmbP alone relegates this debuff to Single target status.
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Who the hell brought this up as being able to help a rogue affect multiple targets? Nice little added trollbait.

[Kevin]

Cough cough. 40 buttons? that's nothing. My total buttons out are 80-100. Sheesh, Treesh just doesn't understand that I use all buttons on base and additional pop bars plus macros, plus pet buttons.

80+! That's easily double your buttons out.
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Yeah, what are you putting on them? Looking at http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?c=Warlock I counted 40 unique skills. Some of which (like summonings and healthstones you only need on there for convience since you will probably never do those in battle). So sure I can see 40 there. There might be a few of those that you want a lower rank skill of it on as well as the higher rank skill, not sure. So I can 60 if you put trade skills and drinks and other convience items on skill bars, and again many of those are just so you can get them in one click as opposed to 2 or 3. So what are the other 40 that you have? You've got a pet bar too which will give you 10 more if we want to count that.

Keep in mind that I don't think you need it on a hotbar unless you will use it in combat. I use the hotbars for stuff that I don't need in combat but I don't consider that a needed button for this conversation because Treesh wasn't either. I've been able to survive with about 4 general communication macros that all my characters can use (AoE, attack this target, add, get it off me). I'm just curious as to what else you feel you need in combat over the 40-50 unique skills you could put on there.

[Kevin]

I have noticed however, and have yelled at, healers to move position when there's a mob CC'ed right next to them. Soon as the CC pops, they'll be chomped at. They're good healers, but they're busy healing instead of saving their own bums (and saving us trouble of peeling it off the priest). Smart use of fade for priests helps greatly, but I'd prefer them to move before a sheep pops.
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The popped CC goes after whatever is highest on the hate list not what it is closest too. Why do you think many warriors sill like to charge and thunder clap before CC is applied if you are an area where you can do that? It helps put them on top of the hate list. You can add the dem shout on top of that without the sheep breaking. I've watched Treesh stand on top of a sheep and heal me and hurt other mobs, and watched the sheep pop and bee line for the mage or me depending on who was top of the hate list. There is no real reason to move away from CC unless whatever is on top of it's hate list is way out of the mobs range so that it does a new aggro scan.

[Gurnsey]

...The biggest problem is that shaman don't have ways to give up the aggro like a rogue does....
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Conversely, a Shaman is far better at being able to survive taking aggro in many cases with much higher armor, shield (many times) and heals - which is not an issue when accidentally getting aggro as the Rogue can Feint or Vanish, but when taking aggro on purpose, say to protect a squishie from a break-out, can prove vital.

I'm not even sure where this discussion is going anymore. :shuriken:

[Drasca]

you lose much of that "I'm doing this all the time"[right][snapback]78531[/snapback][/right]

The pet is always +1 target.

You then say that warlocks pay attention because of applying DoT's

Curses. DoTs are dangerous to use no matter what. A lot of bad hunters try to open autoshoot with venomsting, which is bad in many ways. Curses however don't interfere with CC options, and can actually be applied on top of CC options Except freeze trap... curses may break that, I'm unsure. need more testing with that.

I've played with clueless warlocks, just like clueless warriors and priests and hunters and and and... 

I think warlocks are easier to play ineffectively. My arguement is that the skills, and perspective lend toward warlocks to watching the entire battle intimately.

Better players will learn to naturally do this, but in different forms. As you've witnessed, the priests spoke up about what kinds of damage and rates are taken, buffers/debuffers with what affects the party best against mob types, and many forms of aggro and direct crowd control options.

Priests, Druids, and Mages generally don't dispel and remove curse enough alone. They cannot. They're too busy fighting and healing. They need ribbing.

When foreknowledge comes into play, I don't consider it active attention. That's passive reactionary knowledge.

Druids also have 2 forms of CC that you ignored. 

I love root outdoors. I love sleep too. I must say, I slacked off forgetting to mention these. Sleep's great against elite dragonkin and LBRS spiders in particular. Oh, the hunter's pet in DM west undead upstairs.

Not enough druids are encouraged to use their cat form humanoid tracking though, and I'm glad that one was remembered in the OP.

[mjdoom]

Another observation I made during that run.  The group was doing a real good job of getting aggro before Galreth could even target the mob  :blink:.  Since it was the casters/ranged guys doing it, mjdoom couldn't get a good placement to build aggro.  It becomes even worse since many people run away when they get aggro, instead of standing still or running to the tank.
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Yeah, having the priest be a bit impatient and start pulling, followed by some ranged attackers (I never knew who and it doesn't really matter to me; we had 2 mages and 2 hunters) opening up with any damage made it very exciting to chase mobs around trying to lock some aggro with little to no rage. Definitely kept me on my toes. At least people let me break the CC some times :blink:

- mjdoom

[Drasca]

Yeah, what are you putting on them?[right][snapback]78596[/snapback][/right]

Here are the ones you don't see at thottbot:

3-6 are for trinkets.

Pet commands are 10 slots to pay attention to

I have about 5-10 macros for pet skill utilization. Some involve tricky targetting as one to target self, devour magic, and returning to original target. Some just require to be hotkey'ed, such as spell lock. My re-charm macro helps me by selecting the succubi's target, casting charm, and returning me to my original target. Others are combinations of skills to use, with if/then combinations like when to life tap, using highest level shadowbolt I have mana for, sacrificing and starting a vw summon, a few are for weapon switching and spellstone utilization. Use spellstone, equip off-hand in place of spellstone.

6 forms of Summon Pet. Imp, Succubus, Voidwalker, Felhunter, Infernal, Doomguard.

2 mounts, Felsteed and dreadsteed.

I do keep different ranks of a few skills, detect invisibility, drain soul, corruption, healthstones, and banish in particular. Some are to save mana while retaining utility, some have different uses. Rank 1 Banish is for better timing. That's only about half a dozen or so extra buttons. I'd mention enslave too, but I have a macro for that to cut down on button use. As for healthstones, you may keep one of each type (Major, Greater, Normal, Lesser and minor), but you typically only create and keep your top two healthstone types on you. To be effective, each healthstone must be hotkeyed.

Total buttons in the above paragraph 12. Two forms of each of the above 5 skills, plus two for healthstones.

Conservatively, that's 25+ thott doesn't mention so far.

Thott also doesn't mention all the talents for some reason. Fel domination, Demonic sacrifice, Curse of exhaustion... all don't get mentioned. Talents aren't always available, but I do use them and they take up a lot of slots when used together.

In this example, I'll use several buttons that aren't mentioned in thott:

If I want to aoe. Pause for tank aggro build, Send VW in (button 1). Turn on his AoE taunt as it is best to keep most pet skills off or on manual (button 2) sometimes button three for defensive/passve/aggressive calls. Soul link (B3), wait for voidwalker and self to go low on health. Soul link cancel due bug involved with SL interfering with Shields (B4), Sacrifice (B5).

If there's an elite Hellcaller or other demon in front of me, I will enslave. First however, I must first summon imp and use summon imp again to clear "You already have a pet" status left from VW sacrifice (bug) and cancel the imp summoning (B6a). This is two clicks, but summon cancel is the only one not mentioned in thott. Then cast curse of shadow, enslave, then Soul Link again, send the enslaved demon to attack (or use its special abilities, like Rain of Fire) and AoE myself with hellfire.

If there is no demon.. I'll be hitting fel domination (button 6b) and trying to summon another voidwalker instantly, then soul-linking again.

Some of these skills are re-used, but not in a straight-forward fashion.

For me, talents currently add... Fel domination, Demonic Sacrifice, Soul link an additional +3 slots. Varies with talent build.

You asked me what I put on my UI buttons, right?

Pet Skills, talents, stones, trinkets, summoned pets, macros upon macros that are combinations of the above and more, that's what.

I'm an alchemist as well, but I try to keep profession buttons trim. They do add a potential 10-20 slots alone.

[Drasca]

The popped CC goes after whatever is highest on the hate list not what it is closest too.  Why do you think many warriors sill like to charge and thunder clap before CC is applied if you are an area where you can do that? [right][snapback]78598[/snapback][/right]

I don't enjoy when warriors do that mid battle. End battle, intentionally popping CC is fine. Mid-battle, that CC'ed target needs to stay CC'ed until others are eliminated.

If a target is CC'ed next to the healer, that's because its gone rogue and the healer's built the most hate, so its bee-lined toward the healer and the rest of us sheep/charm it.

My main beef is that warriors/hunters/etc try to aggro through attacks while the rest of us are trying to CC, thereby popping it that steps on our toes. In the few seconds you think you can get an intercept/TC in, I'm already casting and it'll CC/repop before you draw aggro. The problem is compounded if its a priority target, like firebrand invokers, or dragonkin taelons, which will aoe the entire party.

watched the sheep pop and bee line for the mage or me depending on who was top of the hate list.

That's likely use of fade. Great skill, but not guaranteed to be available.

The problem lies in that the healer is on top of the hate list when battles longer than the initial CC. Unsapped, or Unsheeped, they charge toward the healer in an intense battle, then become poly/charmed again at the healer's feet, further building hate. Someone inevitably pops the second CC, and steals aggro but not before the healer takes a potentially fatal hit if the healer is right next to it.

I've seen healers drop when they don't have to. That's my beef.

For engagements under a minute, sure you may have enough hate, but anytime where the mob has been CC'ed to near full duration at least once before--there needs to be some distance between the healer and the to-be-popped CC.

[Drasca]

It's your choice of course, but that is lazy. Pure laziness.  Glad I won't be grouping with you.[right][snapback]78595[/snapback][/right]

Lazy to streamline UI? Would you rather have me use punch-cards?

I've been giving away fadeleaf to the rogues in the guild if they're online at the same time I am. 

So have I. Given away about 60 FL so far. It isn't enough. Rogues keep blind powder to a sparing use due to economic limitations. On my server supply demand curve is so bad , 5g might either get you a stack, or only 5 fadeleaf. In closed economies like guilds, you'll still require more suppliers than consumers. You can go flower picking all you want, but if the rogues don't restrict their blind powder usage, it'll never be enough.

If Poly required wild steelbloom, it'd be the same CC conservation situation.

improved kick.

2 second silence, 5 seconds spell school interrupt, 10 second cooldown. Great skill, but not exactly shutting down a caster by itself. Have to throw in those gouges and kidney's to do that. Rogues can either consider the caster either your main or your off-target, but the rogue is still limited by combo points and range.

[Drasca]

For that reason I don't call for help when I don't need it so the dps can finish the first target first and then focus fire on the mob who wants a priest snack.  With Inner Fire up I can take hits fairly well :)
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Oooh. Single snack left for the priest! Blow'em to bits Mjdoom!

End-battle, I say do whatever you want. I think I trio'ed with all cloth casters the last bit of 5-man LBRS (repops after wyrmthalak died) where the priest zipped into shadowform, our mage iced all, and we zapped all the orcs there. . . until our warriors came over to join the fun.

Shadowpriests do have an easier time combatting individually... but I'd love to see Mj threatening with /doom

So... how short is short? Dwarf to ogre knee caps short? Suddenly mind blasting a treant and yelling TIMBER!!! short? Or noggenfogger elixir + shrink ray backfire short?