Struck by nostalgia

[Harlequin]

The way I see it, a piece of software that is no longer manufactured by the designer is fair game. If they were interested in selling copies they would still be making them. If they were interested in making money off the game, they would still be making it. They aren't. They don't even support it and barely even acknowledge it's existence.

[LemmingofGlory]

Copies come up on eBay every now and again.

My point is this has never been tolerated here in the past, why now?
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Because Lemming has been busy this week, but isn't now.

-Lemmy

[Meshuggah]

Hello boys! I hope life treats you well

P.S. Where can I steal Space Invaders?

[SetBuilder]

Hellfire is hard to find?

Odd, makes me ALMOST glad I kept my copy.

Aside from the fact that duping is so easy it's hard not to do it, and that spell that burns to dust everything on the screen can be bought in a tomb...

[Brother Laz]

that spell that burns to dust everything on the screen can be bought in a tomb...

There are vendors in the dungeon? =)

Nah, Apoc is greatly weakened. Doesn't work over walls anymore, costs an enormous amount of mana, and the damage seems lower too.

[SetBuilder]

There are vendors in the dungeon? =)

Nah, Apoc is greatly weakened. Doesn't work over walls anymore, costs an enormous amount of mana, and the damage seems lower too.
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Doesn't take much mana when you can buy potions, at max lvl does more than enough damage to pretty much kill anything besides big bosses, and I can worry about the soon-to-be-my-bitches on the other side of the wall AFTER torching those on this side. :D

Of course I didn't really like hellfire anyway, so maybe I'm not the person best suited to be putting in input.

Edit: Blah

[LemmingofGlory]

And give me a server to upload it to, and it's yours. Oh, you'd have to find a crack though, CD is required to play, as I recall. Good luck with that.

Okay, I just got my phone line back from a hurricane knocking it out, and somebody offering warez is the first thing I see when I get back ... in a thread where I already edited two such posts for that kind of nonsense? Are you dense or did you just not read the thread before posting? You don't get an individual warning, and I'm not sure if I need to keep you around here much longer. Besides, your claim that "duping is so easy it's hard not to do it" gives me doubts about your gaming ethics as well.

Bah. I don't want to deal with this right now. I'm going to sit on it. Feel free to PM me you have an opinion on the matter; this goes for anyone.

-Lem

[SetBuilder]

Okay, I just got my phone line back from a hurricane knocking it out, and somebody offering warez is the first thing I see when I get back ... in a thread where I already edited two such posts for that kind of nonsense? Are you dense or did you just not read the thread before posting? You don't get an individual warning, and I'm not sure if I need to keep you around here much longer. Besides, your claim that "duping is so easy it's hard not to do it" gives me doubts about your gaming ethics as well.

Bah. I don't want to deal with this right now. I'm going to sit on it. Feel free to PM me you have an opinion on the matter; this goes for anyone.

-Lem
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Hold on, you're making assumptions here.

1. Warez - ?? WHAT?! This is a program that is no longer sold in stores. If it's inappropriate to provide at no charge something that cannot be found any other way (short EBay), then I apologize, and have edited it out. However, keep in mind no offense was intended, and my copy is liscenced and legit, not "warez".

2. Gaming Ethics - I'm tempted to flame you for flat accusing me of being a cheater, as that's what you just did, however I will not. Simply put, I don't cheat, as it removes all fun from a game. But when you can drop an item on the ground, go to pick it up, and pick up a potion at the same time, and suddenly have a second copy of that item, it's just too easy, and hard not to do it. Simply put. I'm not excusing or justifying it, but "cheating" and taking advantage of a bug in a game are fairly different subjects. That bug was never fixed. It's one of the reasons I don't go back and play Diablo again, because I know I'd probably do it.

There are cheats and hacks for every game. At this point, pretty much any game I know I will cheat in, I will not play, for that specific reason. Which is one of the reasons I still play games like Fallout2, Diablo2, UT, UT2004, and a few others. Now, if you want to threaten to axe me from this forum, go right ahead. It's the internet, dude, and any forum or message board is as good as any other. Offering to provide something that is very hard to find, and providing my opinions on said item, however, is not something I would consider ban-worthy. Don't listen to me though, as I've only operated as owner 15 message boards, 6 websites, and admined or moderated close to 50 others. I probably do not know what I'm talking about.

[Hammerskjold]

>1. Warez - ?? WHAT?! This is a program that is no longer sold in stores.

Not quite true. It's still sold in -some- stores, just not very many and not in every location. I think part of the problem is that Hellfire is in a bit of a limbo, no pun intended. It's not officially abandonware, at least to the best of my knowledge.

>and my copy is liscenced and legit, not "warez".

I doubt that's what he's concerned about. It's one thing if I was to offer people my original disc of Hellfire. It becomes another when I offer up free copies of it, especially when it's not officially free\abandonware yet.

[SetBuilder]

>1. Warez - ?? WHAT?! This is a program that is no longer sold in stores.

  Not quite true.  It's still sold in -some- stores, just not very many and not in every location.  I think part of the problem is that Hellfire is in a bit of a limbo, no pun intended.  It's not officially abandonware, at least to the best of my knowledge.   

>and my copy is liscenced and legit, not "warez".

  I doubt that's what he's concerned about.  It's one thing if I was to offer people my original disc of Hellfire.  It becomes another when I offer up free copies of it, especially when it's not officially free\abandonware yet.
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I know hellfire is not yet freeware. That it's not abandonware, that I did not know. As I said, it is apparent my offer was inappropriate, my offer is now edited out and no longer good. However, I may have a link to a site that sells new copies of Hellfire. Will look a bit later, and if they do, will post it in this thread.

[Harlequin]

You're opinion is irrelevant. You can't convince Lemming that any opinion other than his is the right one. Don't bother trying. Others have and it's a waste of time. Anything you try will either be edited out or argued down. This is his board so you he can do whatever he wants.

Pirating and cheating usually go hand in hand, and that's probably what he was assuming.

[SetBuilder]

You're opinion is irrelevant. You can't convince Lemming that any opinion other than his is the right one. Don't bother trying. Others have and it's a waste of time. Anything you try will either be edited out or argued down. This is his board so you he can do whatever he wants.

Pirating and cheating usually go hand in hand, and that's probably what he was assuming.
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Harsh! From his standpoint, I'm in the wrong, and I understand that. No argument there. I've stated my case, and I'm still here, not banned, so apparently he's a logical, reasoning person, so not big deal.

Oh, and I checked the link I have, and the place still has total annihilation (!!) even though Cavedog has been out of business for several years, but no Hellfire. Sorry.

[DeeBye]

Pirating and cheating usually go hand in hand, and that's probably what he was assuming.
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I don't think that has anything to do with it. Links to warez sites can get the Lounge in a lot of trouble.

[SetBuilder]

I don't think that has anything to do with it.  Links to warez sites can get the Lounge in a lot of trouble.
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I would never link to any site with full versions of anything but complete freeware/shareware. Ever. I know better.

Like I said, Nothing in my post was intended to be read that badly, and I completely understand where he was coming from. The only thing I took issue to was being called a cheater, and that's it. The above was merely Harlequin's guess at why LoG accused me of cheating, nothing more.

Ok, back to nostalgia here people, aight? No admin bashing, and forget anyone ever said anything about providing Hellfire. This needs to stop now. Anything else about it, send a PM to whomever your post/comment is related to. Please?

[LemmingofGlory]

Replies to SetBuilder and Harlequin.

2. Gaming Ethics - I'm tempted to flame you for flat accusing me of being a cheater, as that's what you just did, however I will not.

Actually, what I detected in your comment is exactly the opportunisitic cheating to which you admitted here: "At this point, pretty much any game I know I will cheat in, I will not play, for that specific reason." And you go on.

But when you can drop an item on the ground, go to pick it up, and pick up a potion at the same time, and suddenly have a second copy of that item, it's just too easy, and hard not to do it.

It isn't "hard not to do it" for me, but I guess I'm less of an opportunist.

I'm not excusing or justifying it, but "cheating" and taking advantage of a bug in a game are fairly different subjects. That bug was never fixed.

If you think that, you've never seen a DSF cheating diatribe. We've got cheating defined with nigh upon mathematical precision. But to avoid a windy paragraph: No, cheating and bug abuse are quite intimately related.

Don't listen to me though, as I've only operated as owner 15 message boards, 6 websites, and admined or moderated close to 50 others. I probably do not know what I'm talking about.

And your experience shows.

Honestly, if you've been around as much as you say you have, you know that different boards let different things slide. At the Lounge, we're a bit draconian on some matters. One of them is people offering Hellfire for download. I personally think Hellfire ought to count as abandonware. It's old, it's moldy, I doubt Sierra's making any money off it, and the most support they're giving it is hosting the v1.01 patch (when it really deserves at least one more to fix a whole slew of screw-ups and broken features). However, this isn't my site, so it's not my decision to take the risk.

I've stated my case, and I'm still here, not banned, so apparently he's a logical, reasoning person, so not big deal.

That's an assumption. In actuality, I've been away all day and I just got home. Your first reply to me did start to change my mind, though, especially the part where you tell an admin you ought to flame him in a post where he's moderating you.

You're opinion is irrelevant. You can't convince Lemming that any opinion other than his is the right one. Don't bother trying. Others have and it's a waste of time. Anything you try will either be edited out or argued down. This is his board so you he can do whatever he wants.

For the record, my attitude has nothing to do with this being "my board." Here I carry the moderator baggage in addition to being a poster. For that, I have to deal with assertions, like yours, that insinuate I edit posts simply because I disagree with them. You know what? I have never once seen someone give me an example of such a post, so unless you can produce one I'd like to submit that you form arguments based on outright lies.

And you know, I am a hardass. I'm grumpy, and oftentimes I don't like dealing with the stuff the same boring crap over and over. (Do you know how many "Download Hellfire here" threads I've seen? UGH.) But you can bet that if I bother to make an argument, I've got a solid base from which to argue. That's why you notice it's so difficult to change my mind: it's not easy to knock down something that rests on a solid foundation. That doesn't mean I'm unswayable. That doesn't mean I hold my opinions just because I have some supposed lofty seat of power (anyone who has this job and doesn't say it sucks is either lying or a masochist). It means that I'm confident in what I think, and especially in cases related to this game, it's gonna be hard as hell to convince me otherwise.

But you can think otherwise. You can say otherwise. I might bark at you and tell you it's wrong; you can continue saying otherwise. But you cannot link to places to download Hellfire; I will not risk the Lounge for that.

-Lem

[SetBuilder]

If you think that, you've never seen a DSF cheating diatribe.
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Link?

[Meshuggah]

*wheeecht*

[Bolty]

The way I see it, a piece of software that is no longer manufactured by the designer is fair game. If they were interested in selling copies they would still be making them. If they were interested in making money off the game, they would still be making it. They aren't. They don't even support it and barely even acknowledge it's existence.[right][snapback]82790[/snapback][/right]

Until Hellfire starts to appear on strong abandonware sites such as Home of the Underdogs, links to download locations will not be tolerated here. It is simply a legal matter. Home of the Underdogs still faces occasional lawsuits from companies that no longer sell the games listed there but don't want them offered for download, and they don't even TOUCH Hellfire.

The last thing I need, as a webmaster of a hobby-run zero-advertising site is a threat of a lawsuit from Sierra because they find that the Lurker Lounge "promotes" piracy via its forums. Yeah, that would be fun. I'd be the one held responsible legally (as court precedent has shown) because I didn't have it moderated off. This isn't "The Man" keeping anyone down. It's just common sense. People learn that there's a difference between ethic (why is it wrong to pay for a game that's not even manufactured anymore? Huh?) vs. law (it is copyrighted material and thus CANNOT be copied without consent of the creator, period!).

Think I'm paranoid? Recently archive.org was sued for storing content of an old website. You know, what archive.org is for.

Anyway, I don't want to beat too much on a dead horse. But your treatment of Lemming as some evil overbearing moderator is horrible, Harlequin, and that reflects on you.

-Bolty

[Attika]

Link?
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Link.

http://p205.ezboard.com/fthedsfcommunityfr...start=1&stop=20

There are many others. Please browse to see if any of them address your exact concern.

[Jarulf]

1. Warez - ?? WHAT?! This is a program that is no longer sold in stores. If it's inappropriate to provide at no charge something that cannot be found any other way (short EBay), then I apologize, and have edited it out. However, keep in mind no offense was intended, and my copy is liscenced and legit, not "warez".
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The concept of abandonware or things not being available really have no support in copyright law (and typically there is always someone, somewere who holds the copyright). Hence it is as illegal to copy or offerr for download an "abandoned" game as the latest hit game.

Such "abandonware sites" as Bolty mentiones typically (from my understanding) do have sort of permision from the original makers that it is OK, or make a sort of hit and run move when it appear that the actual copyright holder is really so gone that it won't appear and won't complain.