Dark Clouds Gather

[mjdoom]

Well, I was hoping this day would not come but it seems it has. After considering events over the past few months I have decided that I need a change and so I am applying to In Aeternum with Galreth. Flyndar will remain a Lurker and you all should still see me around on him.

There are many factors that have contributed to this decision and it is not one I have made lightly. I really do not want to get in to all of them here (If you really want to know either PM me or whisper me in game) but a lot of it centers simply around raiding attitude. I enjoying alting; but I also enjoy building my level 60 characters and I have felt like they are stuck in neutral a bit. This has led to a decrease in my enjoyment of the game so I am looking for a way to rekindle those characters and that interest. Galreth has rarely been needed for Lurkers due to our larger number of tanks than priests so I haven't always been able to play him when I wanted to. This should give me an opportunity to play him more often. The other major factor is that some Lurkers are just not into raiding. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this but that fact makes it harder for those of us who are into it. Quite simply some people enjoy character development more or RL affects their ability to raid consistently. These people then either get burnt out on raiding or feel obligated to raid to help out others when it might not be what they really want to do with the time that they have. I would rather not push these people to do things that they are not interested in but rather move to a group that shares some of the same interests I do.

Lurkers has always been a phenomenal group of people and I am not leaving you all behind. No other group will be quite like Lurkers is. As I said earlier Flyn will still be around and even if I am on Galreth you can still reach me through tells. I will not make any foolish promises about what time I will have available when I am not raiding as I am honestly not sure, but don't hesitate to give me a shout if someone is needed to fill out a group.

See you in game,

mjdoom

[Arethor]

I was going to make a big long post but my brother has already hit most of the points I would have in my post. With a new crop of level 60 Warlocks, Arethor is no longer needed as much as he has been in the past. I've also felt like he's plateaued. I've discussed my thoughts with a few different Lurkers and CA members over the last month and feel that it's time for Arethor to move on. Galgamesh is now 53 and almost to raiding age. We have a need for Rogues in regular instance runs more than in large raids, but this is the Lurkers niche so it works out well. I know that the people I've already spoken with understand my position and thoughts. I hope the rest of the Lurkers can as well. As Flyn said, if you have any questions on my thoughts send me a PM or a tell in game.

-Arethor

[Skandranon]

If I'd had been inclined to make an "I'm leaving" post about Rylea's guild change, this would have been it. It's just time for some of us to move on...and I'm happy that you guys are going to move on with me.

[Quark]

So right after I get over feeling used, I get to feel lied to and that some people are being hypocrites.

Great week, guys. At least Sommli was honest about this.

[kandrathe]

"Lurkers has always been a phenomenal group of people and I am not leaving you all behind."

Huh? You aren't? Kind of feels like it.

[Darian]

. . .

[Tal]

I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't upset about this. But all in all I wish you guys the best and hope you find what you're looking for. Its been great playing with you.

[Bolty]

Bye.

-Bolty

[LochnarITB]

:huh: <_< :angry: :( :( :(

I've been sitting here for half an hour thinking and wondering if I wanted to reply beyond that. I do. This is in response to the three people here and those that have gone before. While I had been surprised in the past, I actually had seen these three coming for some time and had even discussed it a little in chat.

We have seen this before. Whether it is good intention or blowing smoke, we hear that the alts are staying around to be part of the Lurkers and their activities. In reality, it does not play out that way. There are a couple possible reasons. People may get so wrapped up in raiding anytime, all the time, that they have no time for anything else. They may also get so worn out raiding that they don't want to play in "lesser" areas. Also, they might see a hole that needs to be filled in the new guild so an alt does get played, under either affiliation, to be brought into the new guild's end game raids. For whatever reason, that account becomes dead to the Lurkers. Anything that Lurkers have done to help build the toons for that account is lost to them since most would, IMHO, prefer to not go out of guild for their needs.

The frustration I feel comes somewhat from a feeling of the Lurkers taking one step forward and two back. It is more a feeling that we are back to high school cliques. "The cool kids won't let me sit at their table or invite me to their parties if I don't wear clothes like theirs and know the secret handshake." With the quality of players we are bleeding, has any real attempt been first made to raid with these guilds, on a regular non-trial basis, wearing the Lurker tabard? Had that been done, it not only would have allowed for the raiding that was desired, but also help clear the path for more Lurkers to do the same in the future, without tearing the Lurkers apart. And, that is what you are doing. I also see this as a path for more high level toons to be torn away. There will be a need for a <player class here> and someone will say, "One of my old guildies might do it." With as good as our players are, they will inevitably be asked to raid more with them and, eventually, make the move too. It will happen.

It may be said that I, and others, take this too personally. It is personal. We have all spent a lot of time together. Now we find out that we're just not good enough for you and that you hung out with us until something better came along. Bah!

It might also be cited that the Loch-alts were recently de-guilded. There is a significant difference. It was the alts, not a capped toon, and they were not going to another guild. They were put into a more sheltered environment, a Loch-ubator so to speak, in which they could grow without being a drain on Lurkers resources. They would have been brought back into the fold as they became a resource for the guild to call on. They have now been re-guilded in the hopes of showing support for the Lurkers.

Lastly, so that nobody worries about it, I'll still be here to turn out the lights if everyone else chooses to leave. :(

[Garrin]

I'm not up to 60 yet, so in some peoples eyes i haven't gotten into the cool kid club yet, but whatever.

Personal or not, these people will still be around in game, and it's just a matter or not alienating them when they leave, friend them if your friends with them, if not, let em go. I know you all feel you've invested time and resources into their characters. But their choice is their choice, and you just gotta respect it and wish them luck. I for one hope they find what they're lookin for.

There are new toons comin up to help fill out the ranks again, and I for one will be doing my best to push the lurkers when i get there. As will some of the others.

This can either continue to happen with other capped characters, or we make the push to help fulfill everyones needs.

Good luck to you all. I wish you the best. And if ya ever need a hand with somethin, send me a tell here in a week or two ( at worst three x.x ).

[Kevin]

So yeah, I knew Arethor was thinking about leaving and I understand why, doesn't mean I don't want him to stay. Rylea didn't surprise me, though again, I wasn't happy about it. Galreth surprised me a bit, but I knew mjdoom wanted to play Galreth more than Flyndar most of the time anyway.

I'm also more dismayed by these moves than some of the others in the past because we are raiding high end content frequently now. This is not the same situation that NSD with Sommli and Sword of Doom with Tutelin walked away from.

I don't like that this has got me thinking to myself, "Gee I wonder who is leaving next?"

As one of the people who isn't a huge raider and actually turned some chances down I would also like to comment on that aspect. It isn't that I don't like raids. It's that I would much rather 5 man something before I raid it. I would much rather get to explore and learn the area without hand holding or having everything pointed out to me. I have the time to fail at start over though.

I think this is how some of the other people who would rather not raid feel too. I do like raids. I jumped into the middle of scholo raid with Taranna tonight because I realized that since Gnolack had raided it several times before to help out with stuff that I wasn't going to get any real discovery experience out of it at this stage anyway. I had sacrificed my fun with those instances to help other players. So yeah I get a bit bitter when I can't get help or when someone I helped leaves the guild. Same goes for Baron runs I've done way too many of those now, the rest of Stratholme is still pretty much a mystery to me, though I did do a 5 man to completion on the scarlet side. So it's easy to get me to go on a Baron raid now. I've learned it well enough that I can just sit back and have fun with it.

I also realize that there are others willing to run the instances this way. There has been a lot of 5 manning in scholo lately actually that I have missed. Mirajj is trying to get LBRS runs going, I tried to get an LBRS 5 man at one time and failed on it. But it is something to keep in mind. Your pool of raiders will get larger and more agreeable after some of us get a chance to do our exploration of the high end content. I've sacrificed about all the high end content that I can for the sake of the guild though, there are some things that I have to do first now before I can do runs there.

But some of the people who haven't been 60 for awhile avoid doing things because it feels too much like rushing to Hell difficulty to grind cows. It feels like too much of it is all about the loot. Part of that is game design. Since the game is designed to progress your character through loot that is a big driving factor. But there is still a lot of discovery that can be done still. I didn't like getting the impression, and it wasn't always intended to feel this way, that just because I play a lot of alts and took a long time getting to 60 that I couldn't figure out a damn instance and that I needed to be told what all the pulls were.

Actually most of the time I figure that was being done so that goal of getting loot could be reached with less chance of a wipe. That's fine, but really, unless the player wants that, I don't think a first run in a place should be that way. There are still some lurkers that I avoid partying with when I'm dealing with new content simply because they want to be helpful and I don't want to tell them to shut up. It of course gets worse in that I'm one of those people who doesn't keep his mouth shut sometimes when there are new people around wanting to learn stuff.

And of course some of the raids were less fun because there was lots of stuff skipped. I realized that I've been in UBRS about 10 times now, all the way to general Drakk and there are still some passages that I have never gone down in there. So while leading by the nose is happening there are often things that are left unexplained or ignored. I remember asking twice about where to get the ogre tanin so I could make my suit for DM North tribute runs on an all lurker run and being told that, oh this person has a suit already. Great, that's fine, I've done a tribute before, I know what the suit is used for, I wanted to know where to get the damn orge tanin so that I could make my own at some point. There are other examples of questions like that being asked by others then myself and people saying things like "don't worry about it, we can get to our phat lewt with what we have."

So yeah, that is something to consider about high end raiding and even some of the helping lower levels with 5 man stuff for quests. I know that if an instance is new to me I don't want some high level trivializing it for me. Personally, unless it's for specific reasons, I generally don't want a 60 around my alts until I'm L54 or higher. It isn't that a 60 will bork exp for someone L50 or so, but a 60 fighting anything that is sub L56 really makes it a pretty trivial encounter.

Of course I understand feeling that a char isn't progressing. Our guild has power gamers and casual players in it. They still don't mix all that well. I'm a casual power gamer. :) I also understand not wanting to play alts. I don't have an answer for you as to what to do. Leaving the guild to have fun with those chars makes sense. I still don't like it though. Part of that is because I feel that I'm progressing when the guild progresses. If we get Hykim a piece of gear while on a run that has no chance to get Gnolack something I feel I accomplished something with Gnolack. Of course not everyone gets enjoyment from the game that way. I think Quark is somewhat the sameway. I think he was happier about the shoulders that I got with Taranna tonight than I was. :) That is cool. But there is nothing wrong if you don't get a sense of progression or satisfaction out of that.

I also hope that this situation works out better than some in the past. You guys all know about the established Lurker/CA/GoE raid nights. You guys have other high end chars that could still help out on those without locking out the ones that leave for IA from raiding with them. I'm hoping that I will still see Flyn, Katrin, and Galgamesh (when he gets to 60) on Monday and Thursday nights. I don't ever expect that I will party with Galreth, Arethor, or Rylea again though. Not because I refuse but because I doubt you'll have the time or desire to use those chars for the stuff that I would be doing. Well actually I might refuse to join them on a run where they were after specific loot for themselves because I am a bit bitter about it and with them not in the guild it doesn't really do anything for me. Yes, I have no delusions about how selfish I am even while I spout off about trying to be helpful to others.

Anyway, yeah I'm bitter and unhappy and selfish about the whole thing. Yeah I understand the moves. Of course some of the reason for the moves is also some of what will end up making me stop playing WoW altogehter at some point so I'm more bitter. :) I don't like character progression through items only. I don't like character effectiveness being so equipment dependent. I don't like that pretty much pointless crafting system. I love the world, I love the people, I love building characters. I love that playing in Maraudon as a warrior, druid tank, druid healer, and paladin healer were all completely different experiences. I love that while you can pretty much script every encounter in the game that you don't have to and that sometimes if you have an "oddball" party that using the script will get you killed. Heck I love that an "oddball" party is sometime better at certain encounters than an "ideal" party.

Anyway that's been a lot to read and much of it has been heard before. So basically. #$%& you for leaving us but I hope you have a lot of fun with what you do in the game and I'll still be glad to play with you because you are good people. That make sense?

So my rambling aren't done but I'm not editing the order around. The longer I'm at 60 with some chars and working to help the guild get more people there (I lost count of the jailbreak runs I helped on at 15, how do you think Gnolack got all that damn dark iron residue and I was helping on those runs before they put that crap in the game) the more I understand how angry it makes poeple when someone takes a character out of the guild. I also got angry at some of my co-workers for taking other jobs too. I still honeslty wish them well and hope things get better for them though because they are good people. With the game I try to get over as well it since this is just a game, but I'm selfish and people leaving hurts my fun too. And I've already sacrificed my fun for some of the people who are leaving so that makes it worse. But I still hope they have fun because they are good people. Of course I'm way too emotionally invested in the game because I can interact with people in this damn game on these stupid forums but I still can't do much of that face to face right now and I still can't put in a fulls day work. Of course I may have to stop playing the game because of that too, but that is something for me and my councilor to work out.

Alright I'm done for real now.

[mjdoom]

A few rambling comments,

First off; if you all really want me to leave I will. It was never my intention but it sounds like you are all eager to completely sweep me out the door...

Another thing I would like to point out is that all three of our decisions were independent of each other. This is not some sort of group decision. I made this post to try to let people know what was happening with me and Arethor and Skan decided to tack on their own parts. If you have issues with me specifically please take them up with me.

I do not like the insinuation that I am solely out for the phat lewtz and that I have been only or mostly looking out for myself. The only way this is about loot is entirely incidentally in that loot comes as part of the territory of "levelling up" in Blizzard's end game. You can believe what you will but if you think that I did little to help this guild that did not benefit myself then you are either misguided or not using clear judgement. I do not want to get into some stupid pissing match about who has done what for whom because it proves nothing and only serves to inflate egos. I have put time and effort into making all Lurkers be the best they can be. Yes this includes myself; but it includes others as well. Even with this I still want to put in what time I can to help Lurkers but if you don't want to let me then that is your prerogative.

I could get into more specifics and make points and counterpoints but I think that is all unnecessary. If you would really like to discuss specifics with me I would once again encourage you to contact me via PM or in game whispers.

- mjdoom

[Quark]

First off; if you all really want me to leave I will.&nbsp; It was never my intention but it sounds like you are all eager to completely sweep me out the door...

It's always the exact opposite, though. There's always claims of "I'll stay in the Lurkers," but either the person simply never logs into those characters or they delete/deguild them. We raid on Mon/Thurs. What's IA's schedule? I know I've seen them in BWL on Mondays and Molten Core on Thursdays lately. It's great when someone says they'll keep playing with you - except for the fact that no one actually has yet.

That and, you may not believe it, but losing another priest/warrior and a warlock hurts. Depending on raid attendance, it may even set us back more than 3 weeks.

Another thing I would like to point out is that all three of our decisions were independent of each other.&nbsp; This is not some sort of group decision.&nbsp; I made this post to try to let people know what was happening with me and Arethor and Skan decided to tack on their own parts.&nbsp; If you have issues with me specifically please take them up with me.

I'm just left wondering how two people who were upset about how something was handled went and handled it the same way themselves. That's not fair to me, because their complaints actually lead me to believe they wouldn't leave - but then they go do the same thing. Am I to be suspicious now whenever I see a Lurker grouped up with someone from IA? How long do I watch that person to see if they, too, are jumping ship? We're just clearing trash mobs.

I do not like the insinuation ...

That is an insinuation I did not and will not make. There's many people not in the Lurkers who I still want to help them. It just hasn't happened yet, so forgive me if what you say is meaningless to me unless I see it in action.

[Hillary]

Odd, I thought Lurkers and CA were in MC? Or were they not progressing fast enough for the three of you?

Just curious. I'm very much out of the loop.

At any rate, I'm sorry to hear about the migration. I understand plateau, though, and . . . well, I retired the character instead of looking for a change. We all handle things differently. Yours is definitely less absolute than mine.

Best of luck, kids.

[Tal]

First off; if you all really want me to leave I will.&nbsp; It was never my intention but it sounds like you are all eager to completely sweep me out the door...[right][snapback]84177[/snapback][/right]

I think, judging from the responses in this thread, that no one wants you to leave at all. Certainly no one is saying "Get out and stay out". Our door always has and always will be open to all Lurkers.

Another thing I would like to point out is that all three of our decisions were independent of each other.&nbsp; This is not some sort of group decision.&nbsp; I made this post to try to let people know what was happening with me and Arethor and Skan decided to tack on their own parts.&nbsp; If you have issues with me specifically please take them up with me.[right][snapback]84177[/snapback][/right]

I'm hoping that you and Arethor forgive me but it doesn't appear that way. Especially with the statment: "It's just time for some of us to move on...and I'm happy that you guys are going to move on with me." But Ive become quite fond of you, your brother and Skandranon and if you state that it was coincidental I'll believe you. :)

I do not like the insinuation that I am solely out for the phat lewtz and that I have been only or mostly looking out for myself.&nbsp; The only way this is about loot is entirely incidentally in that loot comes as part of the territory of "levelling up" in Blizzard's end game.&nbsp; You can believe what you will but if you think that I did little to help this guild that did not benefit myself then you are either misguided or not using clear judgement.&nbsp; I do not want to get into some stupid pissing match about who has done what for whom because it proves nothing and only serves to inflate egos.&nbsp; I have put time and effort into making all Lurkers be the best they can be.&nbsp; Yes this includes myself; but it includes others as well.&nbsp; Even with this I still want to put in what time I can to help Lurkers but if you don't want to let me then that is your prerogative.
[right][snapback]84177[/snapback][/right]

As I've stated in the past I can certainly understand the desire to see high end game content. To be in the thick of things rather than in the instances we've all grown to love and hate. But the Lurkers, Carpe Aurum and Keepers of the Cheese were finally making steps towards raiding regularly...and I can only see this move as reducing our available strength and skill in regards to that goal.

As to both of your contributions to the guild they are innumerable. Sharanna wouldn't be as well developed or equipped if not for you, Skan, Arethor and the guild. Shalandrax would certainly still be struggling in some quests if not for you guys. And for that I wish you guys the best. My preference would be to see the <Lurkers> tag under your names but I also want you guys to be happy.

God speed the light will always be on in the Lurkers.

[Skandranon]

I'm hoping that you and Arethor forgive me but it doesn't appear that way. Especially with the statment: "It's just time for some of us to move on...and I'm happy that you guys are going to move on with me." But Ive become quite fond of you, your brother and Skandranon and if you state that it was coincidental I'll believe you. :)

Actually, I said that because this post was in fact the first notification I had that they were going to join IA. Prior to this, I hadn't even talked with them in a few days. I just wanted to express my own feelings on the matter.

[Darian]

As I've stated in the past I can certainly understand the desire to see high end game content. To be in the thick of things rather than in the instances we've all grown to love and hate. But the Lurkers, Carpe Aurum and Keepers of the Cheese were finally making steps towards raiding regularly...and I can only see this move as reducing our available strength and skill in regards to that goal.
[right][snapback]84185[/snapback][/right]

This is precisely where I have a problem. I have busted my ass organizing things to get everyone prepared for our two guilds to be able to do endgame, and now that we're finally starting to do it, people are leaving to go join a guild that sleepwalks through endgame, rather than sticking around to experience the act of learning endgame with their supposed friends. The only way this would have made sense to me is if it had happened two, three months ago. For it to happen NOW is just... confusing as all hell.

[Tal]

Actually, I said that because this post was in fact the first notification I had that they were going to join IA.&nbsp; Prior to this, I hadn't even talked with them in a few days.&nbsp; I just wanted to express my own feelings on the matter.
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My apologies then Skan. :)

[Tal]

I have busted my ass organizing things to get everyone prepared for our two guilds to be able to do endgame, and now that we're finally starting to do it, people are leaving to go join a guild that sleepwalks through endgame, rather than sticking around to experience the act of learning endgame with their supposed friends.&nbsp;
[right][snapback]84188[/snapback][/right]

I don't say this enough but thank you for all that you have and continue to do to help the Lurkers, herd of cats that we are. :)

You getting burned out on instances was what prompted me to raise Shal up to tank for Lurker groups. The game wouldn't be as fun without you and CA around. :)

[Sword_of_Doom]

I promised myself i would not post but i see 3 good people being trashed for making decisions that were in the best interest of their character progression. I remember a way's back, not sure of the exact date, where Mongojerry stated that all character progression would be via item upgrades. That has been repeatedly confirmed by Blizzard Dev's and game designers. If this is the only way to progress your character, as it is right now, what choices does a player have? I am going to use the Lurkers as an example. Lurkers as i understand do not have the numbers to do the upper end content, eg. Onyxia, Molten Core and Blackwing, therefore they have made alliances with other guilds. Presently, from my understanding, this alliance has not yet defeated Onyxia or not yet taken on any boss in Molten Core (please correct me if i am wrong on this). We are now 9 months into the retail of the game. How much longer should people wait to progress their characters? Another 9 months.

Currently in my guild we have killed Onyxia 20+ times as well as completed Molten Core, including killing Ragnaros, 10+ times. Also we have beat the first two bosses in Blackwing Lair (Razoregore twice and Vaelastraz once). Onyxia provides tier 2 epic helms, Ragnaros tier 2 leggings, rest of Molten Core provides tier one epic gear and Blackwing provides the rest of the tier 2 epic sets. The majority of our guild members have 5+ pieces of their Epic tier one sets and some of them 3 or more pieces of their epic tier 2 sets. We have been in Molten Core since March and killing Onyxia in that same time frame. This put the current state of the Lurkers 5 months behind a hardcore raiding guild. In the next 6 months there will be two more raiding zones added, Zul'Gurub and Silithius. Zul'gurub will be a 20 man raiding zone (should have been in since the beginning , would have extremely benefited Lurker size guilds) and Silithius my guess will be a 40 man raid zone and offering tier 3 epic items.

There is a dilemma for players now. Should i bother with character progression through item acquisition or should i just be happy/content levelling 60 after 60. Before i left the Lurkers i tried the levellling 60 after 60. I actually had 2 60's before most people in the Lurkers had one. But i soon realized that if i truly wanted to experience all this game has to offer via end game content, i would need to leave the Lurkers and join a guild with 40 like minded people with similar goals and ideals.

In my humble opinion, Sommli, Rylea, Flyndar, Arethor and there will be others, have to make the choice i made, alt levelling or character progression. I am not speaking for the others, but it took me 2 months before i made my decision to leave and it was certainly a difficult one. I know for a fact that the others have taken a longer time to make their decision.

Anyways, the reactions by good people in this thread still point to the decision that has to be made above. Under the current form of the Lurkers, is it possible to progress my character via item progression? In 6 months time, there is a great possibility that much of the Lurkers will be 3 sets behind those that want to progess through item progession. Please don't fool yourself into believing you can do any of the new raid content with your current gear. Good or bad, Blizzard has made all their new content tuned to the type of gear you have. Therefore, Blackwing Lair is pointless for most guilds because they don't even have tier 1 sets.

Please do not lambast people for making a decision that Blizzard through game design forces people to. I hope Lurkers are not a cult because thats they way some of you act when people leave. YOu alienate them and you give them a quick kick in the butt and close the door on them.


These are extremely tough decisions for people to make. I can say with full confidence that the decision i made in March was the best one i have made. For the first time in my gaming career i am at the cutting edge of new content. I love it and would trade it for nothing. I have also maintained friendly ties with much of the Lurkers and have contrary to what people have thought, done many instance runs with them. Definitely not near the frequency as some would like but i have.

I honestly would like to hear from people about what they think about character progession in this game and is it fair to criticize someone for making a decision in the best interest of their character progression?

Anyways, thought i would throw in my two coppers, for whatever its worth.