Dark Clouds Gather

[Magicbag]

It's power gaming vs. casual gaming plain and simple.

I'm a lurker for the community only, though I did play with the folks in Beta and enjoyed my time immensly.

The problem is that with a community as diverse and relaxed as the lurkers (i.e. a "gaming community") you tend to have less organization than a fully structured guild.

To advance in most MMOs, WoW being no exception, you need dedicated, highly skilled players in large groups. Tons of people have no problem with this and are content with getting every pet, or completing all the quests they can... noble endeavors that contribute to the community of the lounge.

However, for people that want to experience everything the game has to offer, it simply can't be done in the current structure without more organization.

This is just one person's outsider opinion though, YMMV.
-MB

[Tal]

Currently in my guild we have killed Onyxia 20+ times as well as completed Molten Core, including killing Ragnaros, 10+ times.  Also we have beat the first two bosses in Blackwing Lair (Razoregore twice and Vaelastraz once).   Onyxia provides tier 2 epic helms, Ragnaros tier 2 leggings, rest of Molten Core provides tier one epic gear and Blackwing provides the rest of the tier 2 epic sets.   The majority of our guild members have 5+ pieces of their Epic tier one sets and some of them 3 or more pieces of their epic tier 2 sets.   [right][snapback]84192[/snapback][/right]

Good for you guys I'm truly glad to hear that you're doing so well.

There is a dilemma for players now.  Should i bother with character progression through item acquisition or should i just be happy/content levelling 60 after 60.  Before i left the Lurkers i tried the levellling 60 after 60.  I actually had 2 60's before most people in the Lurkers had one.  But i soon realized that if i truly wanted to experience all this game has to offer via end game content, i would need to leave the Lurkers and join a guild with 40 like minded people with similar goals and ideals.  [right][snapback]84192[/snapback][/right]

And that is one less person that could have assisted the Lurkers and allied guilds to that very end game content.

In my humble opinion, Sommli, Rylea, Flyndar, Arethor and there will be others, have to make the choice i made, alt levelling or character progression.  I am not speaking for the others, but it took me 2 months before i made my decision to leave and it was certainly a difficult one.  I know for a fact that the others have taken a longer time to make their decision.  [right][snapback]84192[/snapback][/right]

So basically what you are saying is that if you stay in the Lurkers you don't progress your characters. Gotcha. Might as well close the doors then.

Anyways, the reactions by good people in this thread still point to the decision that has to be made above.  Under the current form of the Lurkers, is it possible to progress my character via item progression?    In 6 months time, there is a great possibility that much of the Lurkers will be 3 sets behind those that want to progess through item progession.  Please don't fool yourself into believing you can do any of the new raid content with your current gear.  Good or bad, Blizzard has made all their new content tuned to the type of gear you have.  Therefore, Blackwing Lair is pointless for most guilds because they don't even have tier 1 sets.[right][snapback]84192[/snapback][/right]

We certainly can't field a raid now if people keep leaving. So those of us who stay behind are forced to branch farther and farther out to find guilds with interested raiders to field a team to get the equipment necessary to even look at the new areas if we desired.

Please do not lambast people for making a decision that Blizzard through game design forces people to.  I hope Lurkers are not a cult because thats they way some of you act when people leave.  YOu alienate them and you give them a quick kick in the butt and close the door on them.
These are extremely tough decisions  for people to make.  I can say with full confidence that the decision i made in March was the best one i have made.  For the first time in my gaming career i am at the cutting edge of new content.  I love it and would trade it for nothing.  I have also maintained friendly ties with much of the Lurkers and have contrary to what people have thought, done many instance runs with them.  Definitely not near the frequency as some would like but i have.[right][snapback]84192[/snapback][/right]

I don't think anyone is lambasting people for this decision. Some of us have a right to be upset with this decision. As the GM I'm stating that the Lurkers is NOT closing the door on ANY Lurker. Some folks have moved on to other things and I support their decision. But don't slap me on the face and tell me to enjoy it. I don't have to like my friend's decisions but I will support them.

And yes I do feel like I've been slapped in this. I'm sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but its true. As I stated in guild chat I feel like the guild is hemorrhaging 60s and there is precious little that I can do about it. We're finally getting to the stage where we can field raid groups and folks are leaving for a guild that with little effort can field multiple raid groups and there is nothing I can do about it. All that effort getting people blooded, keyed, and attuned set back. Yes we're bringing new players up all the time but I have to wonder who the guild is going to lose next?

I honestly would like to hear from people about what they think about character progession in this game and is it fair to criticize someone for making a decision in the best interest of their character progression?
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I vote guild progression. So even if I am the only person running around with a Lurker tag I'll wear it proudly. If it means I don't see anymore end content so be it.

[/rant]

Addendum to my rant since it seems to be overlooked. No ONE is closing the doors on ANY Lurkers. Period.

[Pesmerga]

This is precisely where I have a problem.  I have busted my ass organizing things to get everyone prepared for our two guilds to be able to do endgame, and now that we're finally starting to do it, people are leaving to go join a guild that sleepwalks through endgame, rather than sticking around to experience the act of learning endgame with their supposed friends.  The only way this would have made sense to me is if it had happened two, three months ago.  For it to happen NOW is just... confusing as all hell.
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Part of the reason I'm still a Lurker. My self imposed (well, partially... stupid dialup) hiatus from WoW was in part to see where I wanted to go in the game. I could either quit playing, stay with the Lurkers, or move on to another guild. I saw light at the end of the tunnel, and that light was raiding. With this whole Monday/Thursday scheme we have going on, I was pretty happy. (Note: I'll be missing tonight, going to a baseball game with the fiancee)

However, I'm not going to get annoyed at those who left/are leaving. Their choice, their game. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but we'll live. However, if they want to come back for any reason in the near future, I'll welcome them back.

[Skandranon]

With the quality of players we are bleeding, has any real attempt been first made to raid with these guilds, on a regular non-trial basis, wearing the Lurker tabard?

Loch, you should know as well as I how absurd such a thing is. Most guilds would laugh at such a suggestion; there's no reason to take people who aren't part of their system when there are plenty of people who aren't requesting special treatment who want to go into the guild.

But I take exception to "tearing the Lurkers apart". Guild tag does not a Lurker make, or Mongo wouldn't be a Lurker right now either.

It may be said that I, and others, take this too personally.  It is personal.  We have all spent a lot of time together.  Now we find out that we're just not good enough for you and that you hung out with us until something better came along.  Bah!

I can't speak for Arethor and Flyn, but I know I've been turning down invitations from raiding guilds from as early as January when I wasn't even 60 yet. I have been invited many, many times and always said no, I'm happy where I am, even when I haven't been. I have been more than simply loyal, even though there hasn't been much reason to be. So it isn't a matter of something better coming along: something better came along, stopped for tea, visited a few times, inquired about my well-being, and finally gave me a place to stay when I decided I wanted to move on.

And don't minimize just how hard it was to make the decision to change guilds. It was terrifying, agonizing, and painful, however much I knew I wanted it. Without a doubt, the hardest decision I've ever had to make in the game. Above all, it wasn't casual, or ill-considered, like you imply.

[kandrathe]

You are right, we haven't downed Onyxia. And we've begun dipping our toes into MC. IIRC, when you left you predicted we wouldn't be at this point by the end of summer. It has been extremely hard with 30 marginally dressed toons to do what IA does with 40 well dressed. Seeing 3 or 5 or 10 of your best prepared and most experienced accounts jump to the sure thing, rather than aid your friends get there as well feels like abandonment, and if the exodus continues there will be no way that the 10 remaining will ever get it done.

My prediction is that you will wait in line in the IA system and get your Tier II equipment, play a little while longer grousing that Blizzard hasn't offered any more Tier III phat lewts zones and eventually tire of the game. Yep, you win. You get to get bored of the game by burning through all the high end content in 12 months from release.

Yeah, IA offers you the shorter road to the phat lewts and after 60 getting better items does seem to be one of the goals. A different one is helping your guild to build a group of people up to encounter and overcome these obstacles together. I'm with GG or Quark when I say I'm just as excited to see others get a nice item, or complete a quest series. I'm not one of those people that skips midway through a good book to read the last chapter.

[Darian]

There is a dilemma for players now.  Should i bother with character progression through item acquisition or should i just be happy/content levelling 60 after 60.  Before i left the Lurkers i tried the levellling 60 after 60.  I actually had 2 60's before most people in the Lurkers had one.  But i soon realized that if i truly wanted to experience all this game has to offer via end game content, i would need to leave the Lurkers and join a guild with 40 like minded people with similar goals and ideals.
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That's all well and good, but these guys left after we'd started a regular schedule of hitting Onyxia/MC. Your decision to leave was before I was really involved in anything, but it made sense. Psybie's decision to leave Carpe Aurum and join Blitz several months ago made sense. Sommli's decision to leave made sense. Had Skan, mjdoom, and Arethor left two months ago, it would have made sense.

Leaving now doesn't, and it's a slap in the face. It's one thing to reduce effective strength for doing stuff like Scholo and Strat and BRS so that you can go do Onyxia and MC and BWL, when you simply can't do them with your current guild. It's another entirely to reduce effective strength for doing Onyxia and MC and BWL so that you can... go do Onyxia and MC and BWL with different people. You can't make the argument that they were being held back, not now.

It especially stings that these are among the people who said "No, I'm going to wait so I can go with the Lurkers, and I'll work to get them in position to be able to go do it," and then once the Lurkers were ready, they bailed out.

[Skandranon]

This is not the same situation that NSD with Sommli and Sword of Doom with Tutelin walked away from.

No. In many ways, I feel it's worse.

It's that I would much rather 5 man something before I raid it.  I would much rather get to explore and learn the area without hand holding or having everything pointed out to me.  I have the time to fail at start over though.

This is a fine thing to feel, GG. Laudable, even. So if you really mean it, go do it.

It's one thing to say "I want to 5-man it and discover it for myself", go do it, and then proceed to raids and additional runs to help people gear up.

It's quite another to say "I want to 5-man it" and then play alts, raid something else, play alts more, delay, auction, craft, farm, play alts more, and keep saying you don't want to raid or do loot runs because you want to discover it first. It's been over a month since I suggested you find yourself a discovery group to go into DM West; since I said that DM West is a variety of fun challenges and that you'd really enjoy it. More than a month. Have you been in there yet?

[Hillary]

Glad I left. This would have killed me.

*sigh*

Drama sux.

[Sword_of_Doom]

[quote=Tal,Jul 25 2005, 03:41 PM]
"Good for you guys glad to hear that you're doing so well."

Thanks :)

"And that is one less person that could have assisted the Lurkers and allied guilds to that very end game content. "

Your asking people to wait an indefinite amount of time for the possibility of having enough people to do the end game content. If i followed that advice, i would have waited 5 months with no character progression. Remember its not the guild that is paying my $14.99 U.S. a month its me. I want to character progress. The game design forces me to find 40 like minded people who want to do the same thing.

"So basically what you are saying is that if you stay in the Lurkers you don't progress your characters. Gotcha. Might as well close the doors then."

Its the Lurker philosophy that forces players to move on. The no recruitment philosophy will always leave the Lurkers lacking the numbers. In the current guild i am in, we constantly bleed 60's, probably 8 to 10 a month. So we are constantly recruiting. We have approximately 55 level 60 raiders but in the last month have only consistently fielded 36 or 37. We killed Ragnaros with 34 people on Saturday, the previous Saturday we took down Major Domo with 31. Every guild faces a numbers crunch.

"We certainly can't field a raid now if people keep leaving. So those of us who stay behind are forced to branch farther and farther out to find guilds with interested raiders to field a team to get the equipment necessary to even look at the new areas if we desired."

Change the philosphy then, otherwise i don't see a reason for blaming player exodus.

"I vote guild progression. So even if I am the only person running around with a Lurker tag I'll wear it proudly. If it means I don't see anymore end content so be it."

If you truly wanted that there would have been an active recruiting policy. This dilemma the Lurker's face is fixable. Blaming the exodus of players is convenient but doesn't solve the real problem, the lack of new people coming in.

[Tal]

No.  In many ways, I feel it's worse.
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How so?

[Sword_of_Doom]

Glad I left.  This would have killed me.

*sigh*

Drama sux.
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*wave* I miss the High Priestess. I hope things are going well for you :)

[Hillary]

*wave*  I miss the High Priestess.  I hope things are going well for you :)
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I miss you too, Steve Perry.

*hugs*

[Skandranon]

And yes I do feel like I've been slapped in this. I'm sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but its true. As I stated in guild chat I feel like the guild is hemorrhaging 60s and there is precious little that I can do about it. We're finally getting to the stage where we can field raid groups and folks are leaving for a guild that with little effort can field multiple raid groups and there is nothing I can do about it. All that effort getting people blooded, keyed, and attuned set back.
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Seriously, Tal. What the hell?

Field raid groups? Lurkers/CA can't make thirty, much less forty, and that's on good days. Even with me, Flyn, and Arethor there you struggled to make thirty, and the fact that you'll just have twenty-seven now without us doesn't change a lot.

As for effort getting people blooded, keyed, and attuned? You didn't blood me. I did that in a pickup group. Keyed? I got keyed in a 5-man group in January with Nin (who's in IA), Flyn (who's moving), Cat (who doesn't play), and Lissa. I got MC attuned with Flyn and Arethor in a half-Basin group and BWL attuned with IA. The Lurkers have not lost one iota of effort because Rylea is no longer in the guild.

[Bun-Bun]

I honestly would like to hear from people about what they think about character progession in this game and is it fair to criticize someone for making a decision in the best interest of their character progression?

No, it's not fair, especially in the most recent instances. I recognize that there are many different reasons for playing the game, many ways of getting enjoyment out of it, and a raft of varied people with a spectrum of other constraints on their time.

I'm never happy about seeing people I like leave the guild, but I can comprehend the reasoning behind it. I do not like at all criticizing the dearly departed for some perceived imbalance in "contributing", first because I admire and respect them for their time and efforts, and secondly because I don't want to play this game with a scorecard.

Edit: Decided I didn't have the proper perspective to speak on some subjects.

[Skandranon]

Yeah, IA offers you the shorter road to the phat lewts and after 60 getting better items does seem to be one of the goals.  A different one is helping your guild to build a group of people up to encounter and overcome these obstacles together.  I'm with GG or Quark when I say I'm just as excited to see others get a nice item, or complete a quest series.  I'm not one of those people that skips midway through a good book to read the last chapter.
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Believe or not, Kandrathe, items had absolutely nothing to do with me leaving. I want to take the biggest challenges in the game, at the time that they're the biggest challenges - not when Blizz nerfs them down so everyone can see them. I want that feeling of being challenged again, not the same old autopilot through every instance. The Razorgore encounter in BWL is the most wonderfully challenging encounter I've had in the game so far; it reminded me of what it is to have fun in this game. That's what I wanted, and it's what I've got.

[Sword_of_Doom]

You are right, we haven't downed Onyxia.  And we've begun dipping our toes into MC.  IIRC, when you left you predicted we wouldn't be at this point by the end of summer.  It has been extremely hard with 30 marginally dressed toons to do what IA does with 40 well dressed.  Seeing 3 or 5 or 10 of your best prepared and most experienced accounts jump to the sure thing, rather than aid your friends get there as well feels like abandonment, and if the exodus continues there will be no way that the 10 remaining will ever get it done.

When i left the Lurkers to go to In Aeternum, they had not yet defeated Magmadar or Lucifron the beginning two bosses in Molten Core.  I had the priviledge of doing these encounters in a fresh and unique way.  Also, it was 3 weeks before we attempted Onyxia because in March we did not have 40 raiders blooded yet.  Magmadar, Lucifron and Onyxia are beatable with blues and greens, i know, i have done it.  Really people shouldn't be attempting these areas until they have the majority of their class sets.  I had full Devout within a month of being 60 so i know its possible to upgrade your gear that fast.

[/quote]
"My prediction is that you will wait in line in the IA system and get your Tier II equipment, play a little while longer grousing that Blizzard hasn't offered any more Tier III phat lewts zones and eventually tire of the game.  Yep, you win.  You get to get bored of the game by burning through all the high end content in 12 months from release."[/quote]

Actually we see 30 or so Epic tier one or tier 2 items drop a week.  So your chance of getting something weekly is quite high.    The problem with WoW is the same as any other its brand new and what they promised they did not deliver. 


There seems to be an inherent bias in the Lurkers towards loot and i think thats a fundamental misunderstanding of what a MMO is all about.  You must have the loot to progress, there is no way around that.    Your blaming the player when you really should be blaming the game designers.  They have tuned all the new stuff to what gear you wear.  Tigole (Quest and raid developer for Blizzard) himself said Blackwing Lair was not for the casual, it was for high end raiding guilds.

[/quote]Yeah, IA offers you the shorter road to the phat lewts and after 60 getting better items does seem to be one of the goals.  A different one is helping your guild to build a group of people up to encounter and overcome these obstacles together.  I'm with GG or Quark when I say I'm just as excited to see others get a nice item, or complete a quest series.  I'm not one of those people that skips midway through a good book to read the last chapter.
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[/quote]

That will not be happening for Rylea, Flyndar and Arethor. They are seeing with In Aeternum, Blackwing Lair for the first time. It costs me 20 gold on Saturday in repairs for our attempts in Blackwing Lair. We are learning these encounters with our own strategy and ideas. There are 6 to 8 bosses in Blackwing Lair so there is plenty of fun to be had yet. By the time Blackwing Lair is farmable, Zul'gurub will be out and possibly Silithius. I also expect an expansion announcement in the next 6 months. There will always be content to do and explore. Its a little light now but i foresee that changing.

[Quark]

I do not like at all criticizing the dearly departed for some perceived imbalance in "contributing", first because I admire and respect them for their time and efforts, and secondly because I don't want to play this game with a scorecard.[right][snapback]84209[/snapback][/right]

I would just like to point out that I sneer at no one on either side for their contributions. My "used" comment may be taken on as that, but it is only based on Skan switching guilds half an hour after delaying our Onyxia run to allow him another attempt at Tsu'zee.

[Skandranon]

I would just like to point out that I sneer at no one on either side for their contributions.  My "used" comment may be taken on as that, but it is only based on Skan switching guilds half an hour after delaying our Onyxia run to allow him another attempt at Tsu'zee.
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Which, I might point out, is the only thing I've asked the guild for. Ever.

[Hillary]

Believe or not, Kandrathe, items had absolutely nothing to do with me leaving.  I want to take the biggest challenges in the game, at the time that they're the biggest challenges - not when Blizz nerfs them down so everyone can see them.  I want that feeling of being challenged again, not the same old autopilot through every instance.  The Razorgore encounter in BWL is the most wonderfully challenging encounter I've had in the game so far; it reminded me of what it is to have fun in this game.  That's what I wanted, and it's what I've got.
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You pay for it, Skan. You choose how your 15 bucks are spent. I chose an rp server and to drop a character in almost full devout and on an epic kitty for an undead chick that lights things on fire. That being said, you chose to see BWL now as opposed to 6 months from now or a year.

You have EVERY right. I can see where you're coming from, I understand.

On the other hand . . .

No matter which way you spin it, this does cheapen the efforts of two or three months of work, and I think that's where the frustration lies for a lot of people. Two steps ahead, three steps back. I helped with that myself, leaving, and I know it. If you'd told me off the cuff that this is what you were planning, I could have told you that's how it would have been viewed, and WILL be viewed by quite a few people. It would have been kinder to do what everyone had talked about months ago and left THEN, not now. I myself should have been smarter and just wrapped it up when I had the first inklings that Griz wasn't going to work for me.

I didn't, though, and now . . . now I have a defunct priest.

You're a smart person - an eerily smart person. Certainly you can see where the anger is coming from? Not that you're leaving. It's that you're leaving NOW, after a bunch of pipedreams blow up in peoples' faces.

This too shall pass. But you couldn't have expected any other reaction.

[Tal]

Your asking people to wait an indefinite amount of time for the possibility of having enough people to do the end game content.  If i followed that advice, i would have waited 5 months with no character progression.  Remember its not the guild that is paying my $14.99 U.S. a month its me.  I want to character progress.  The game design forces me to find 40 like minded people who want to do the same thing.[right][snapback]84204[/snapback][/right]

Again I really don't see it as an either or proposition.

Its the Lurker philosophy that forces players to move on.  The no recruitment philosophy will always leave the Lurkers lacking the numbers.  In the current guild i am in, we constantly bleed 60's, probably 8 to 10 a month.  So we are constantly recruiting.  We have approximately 55 level 60 raiders but in the last month have only consistently fielded 36 or 37.  We killed Ragnaros with 34 people on Saturday, the previous Saturday we took down Major Domo with 31.    Every guild faces a numbers crunch.[right][snapback]84204[/snapback][/right]

I don't see why everyone involved in those feats has to all be under the same tag.

Change the philosphy then, otherwise i don't see a reason for blaming player exodus.[right][snapback]84204[/snapback][/right]

So I recruit more players to lose more players. Something doesn't add up in all of this and blaming our philosophy isn't the solution. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I won't and can't stop people from leaving. I certainly would welcome anyone back that has left. But don't ask me to be happy about the position the depatures leaves my guild.

If you truly wanted that there would have been an active recruiting policy.  This dilemma the Lurker's face is fixable.  Blaming the exodus of players is convenient but doesn't solve the real problem, the lack of new people coming in.
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I resent that. You've not been around to see the kind of effort that I and others have put into getting the Lurkers and allied guilds ready for end game.