New Hunter talent trees

[Skandranon]

I don't see it as being very useful at all. I guess I'll have to think more about it.
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You could take 15 people without talents into UBRS and do fine. At this stage of the game, it's not about UBRS any more.

[Quark]

That was just the example of the one place where other classes don't have their usual CC options. The Hunter's CC is always ready.

[Kevin]

I guess this is where I'm running into problems with it. 12 seconds in a UBRS fight is basically a null time. Next to nothing is going down that fast. And after that 12 seconds is up, the WS'ed creature now has a tiny DoT on it that prevents any other form of CC being reapplied to it. In addition to it being mad at the hunter, it gets a little damage.

I don't see it as being very useful at all. I guess I'll have to think more about it.
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If I'm not mistaken you can have a scorpid sting on a mob and still CC that mobs. So assuming the DoT portion is still considered a sting a hunter can now pretty much always get the mob they want into a freeze trap as well. Wyvern, let the rest of the stuff go where it wants. FD, trap, scorpid, it runs to you and gets frozen. Use preperation that you will most likely have if you have WS, trap it again if you want. Heck since the DoT is only 12 seconds you might be able to conc blow it and have the DoT be gone by the time it gets to the Freeze trap. And as mentioned you have CC that works on anything, anywhere now. So the time limit isn't bad. It's not the end all be all but it is certainly something to think about getting over Trueshot or the new pet skill.

[savaughn]

I don't see it as being very useful at all. I guess I'll have to think more about it.
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Wyvern Sting, Feign Death, Wyvern Sting, Readiness, Feign Death, Wyvern Sting

That's knocking down 3 opponents chasing my flag carrier. Good with that.

[Metrocube]

Wyvern Sting, Feign Death, Wyvern Sting, Readiness, Feign Death, Wyvern Sting

That's knocking down 3 opponents chasing my flag carrier.  Good with that.
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This sounds good on paper, but conditions have to be ideal to pull this off, and in combat, conditions are seldom ideal. Chances are that you won't be able to get out of combat for various reasons, even with feign death, and so you won't be able to use this ability as chaser control.

I see Wyvern as more of an opening move, when combat is first joined, that lets you delay a DPS-monkey from joining the fray. Best combined with a macro that says "You break it, you tank it."

[Roland]

If these proposed changes make it into the game, I'm quitting.  I've already experienced this crap with Diablo II.  I'm not going to suffer through it again at fifteen dollars a month.

*waves* Bye-bye. One less whiner to deal with.

Seriously, what is the point about all this BS "if they do this, I'll quit!" WHINING? It's arrogant and foolish. You don't know the effects these changes will have ON PAPER any better than I do. A lot of things that look great on paper turn out terrible, and vice versa. I speak as someone who's been doing some 4+ YEARS of modding Diablo II (with mixed results).

As has been said before, boosting a weak class does not automatically make it Godly. And, to quote Bolty (IIRC), "This is Blizzard's way: massive changes to begin with, followed by subtle toning down over time to their real intended values". I remember a thousand players complaining, in the very same way that you are now, about the nerf to mana regen during combat and the no drinking in combat. And look how it is now: all well and good, perfectly balanced.

The game's been out, what, a year? Even I'm not cynical enough to believe Blizzard can botch this game up as horrendously as you predict in THAT little time. Give it 3 or 4 more, sure, when all their "shineys" have grown dull and the lust to play is down to a dull itch. THEN they might throw in something over-the-top to completely screw up the game (ala D2). But not now, when the game is, for all intents and purposes (just like every Blizzard game before it) still in "beta" phases.

Maybe it's just my lax attitude towards actually playing WoW, but so far I'm heavily content with what they've done, and have a fair bit of faith (for the most part) in their abilities to further this game into greatness. I have not forgotten all the crap they've dumped on their past games, nor will I ever, but as I said, even I am not cynical enough to be flipping my lid over a desperately-needed rebalancing to the Hunter class.

Besides, I'd be very suprised to see all these changes to the Hunter trees make it live EXACTLY the way they are now. Some tweaking will undoubtedly ensue, during the testing phase as well as months after whatever changes they make are implemented in a real patch. For better or worse, that's the way of the game.

So chill. Or quit. Either way, that's one less whiner to listen to. There's enough of them over at the official forums. Mayhap your response will be better welcomed there. :P

[Roland]

See I wanted to make a melee hunter, just because, always have.  That of course is not what they did with survival.  Removing counter attack, which was one of the few nice melee skills, and adding all this stuff that supliments ranged attacks isn't really the best way to go for what I want.  The final survival talent is just nuts.  Hunters now have two forms of CC that work on anything.  Sure they are 12 and 26 (trap with new talent) seconds but that is still a big deal.  The hunter was one of the best solo classes in the game already, they just got better.  They made it so that you can do even more ranged damage and basically said, yeah we don't want variant scum melee hunters, we want cookie cutter 31/20 survival marksman with a few beatmaster hunters.

See, now THIS is a significant gripe to "whine" about. And a point I was going to raise myself if it happened been brought up already. I, too, wanted to try a more melee-oriented build, or at least a more trap-oriented build. Ranged / Traps would be very fun, at least on paper IMHO. Of course, in practice it may not work out as well as I would hope (too much work for too little gain, for example, in setting up traps pre-combat), but the theory was at least plausible. Now, at first glance, it seems melee hunters, while getting several buffs, aren't quite as "available" as they were originally.

Although, I freely admit that I have NOT studied the trees closely, merely glanced over them, so I could be missing several key changes / skills that still allow the more melee-oriented hunter, or even make them better (the increased Health aside, of course). So if I'm wrong (along with GG here), please feel free to point out my errors. I don't expect to have the time to fully peruse the new trees anytime soon (g/f's been stealing all my computer time lately :P).

I like the beast mastery changes and I don't think they are out of whack.  It's still a variant build as the 31/20 survival marksman is the cookie cutter now, but it won't be as gimpy.  I have a beast master hunter at L43 and he is quite happy about these changes.  When I saw that spirit bond would only require 21 points I got exicted that a survival/beast hybrid could do the melee hunter (that pet healing you really ups your melee viability 20 health every second, because of frenzy being active pretty much all the time and the attack speed of a well chosen pet then getting to 1.0 or faster, it's even more since claw and bite make it go off as well).  But they went for what more customers do.  They upped PvP skills a lot and upped ranged and solo survivability even more.  Don't get me wrong the melee hunter variant scum is more viable now, but they didn't really help melee DPS that much.  A 6 second cooldown with 20% crit chance raptor strike and weak mongoose bite that is mainly used to get back in ranged, and some better crit chances (that look to work for ranged as well) don't really help the melee side of things that much.  But I really do understand why it didn't happen.  Hunters are designed as a ranged attacker, making them even more hybrid wasn't what they were looking for.

See, I enjoy the boosted ranged abilities. Although, that again is only "on paper". I have virtually no experience with Hunters, unfortunately, as they SEEM like a class I would love to play. I could just never get into them enough to "stick" with them like I have my Rogue, sadly. Maybe too slow of a pace compared to my Rogue? ;) I must be spoiled by the fast play. :D

I, too, loved the Spirit Bond change. That skill alone made me want to invest in the Beastmastery tree, alongside with boosting my pet. Blizzard has time and again said that the Hunter's pet is an integral part of the overall DPS (among other things) of the class, and I wanted to put that knowledge to the fullest potential use. Hence the melee- and trap-oriented build, but also focusing on your pet, as well. I could never decide whether I wanted to go deep into Survival or Beastmastery, though, for my main focus. Never really had the inclination to truly dedicate a lot of time to it like I have my Rogue. :) But the thought of a Hunter that lays down a trap, lures his prey into it, and then unleashes fist-to-face right alongside his pet... that just always seemed like a really cool way to play a Hunter, instead of like a Golem-Necromancer with a Bow. :P

I personally never thought the hunter was that broken.  Pets weren't fully implemented and survival was a pointless tree except for some PvP stuff.  They didn't really change beast mastery that much.  Moved some of the nicer pet buffs up, increased the usefulness of some (15% v 10% on the damage talent, the focus talent will acutally do something though it's deeper in now), front loaded pathfindig, gave you more dodge chance (5 points to monkey instead of just 3 now), made intimidation do something, moved a top tier talent to where it should have been with Spirit Bond.  The new top talent is very nice DPS add though.  From my experience with my L43 hunter who was beast before, the pet will under frenzy and in beastial wrath most of the time.  If people will allow hunters to have pets out in instances a beast hunter when considered with their pets should still do some damn good DPS since they can still get most of the damage adding marksman talents.

I don't know if I'd say the Hunter was broken before. I guess the phrase I'd use (it's one of my favorites) would be "The Hunter needs some lovin'". Just seemed more fitting. The class, obviously, was viable. The Lurkers has more Hunters at 60 than any other class, IIRC. But it definitely had its shortcomings, and so I'm glad Blizzard has finally addressed the class. It's been due for awhile (although not as achingly long as Paladin Talents were in beta :P), but no so long as to make me wonder if they were ever going to get some attention. Truth be told, I would have been surprised if they didn't focus on Hunters this patch. Just got that vibe I guess.

The new Beastmastery Tier 6 (that's the highest, right? I can never remember) talent seems awesome. Very fitting to what a true animal could be capable of, especially one that is not "trained" by the Hunter in a "master / slave" way but rather in a "spiritual bond" sort of way, like two halves to a greater whole (which, I think, was Blizzard's intent behind the class). And I agree that pets in instances should be MUCH more viable now, not that they were really broken to begin with. If I'm not mistaken, the problem with pets in instances is one of aggro management? Or something to that effect? I'm just trying to recall from the passing conversations I've heard and had, as I have no high-end experience in the game, and only minimal experience co-oping with a Hunter (although the time I DID spend with some was most enjoyable, even when their pet was out in the instance; I felt bad whenever it died, though :(). If that was the case, then it of course will still be, but is more an issue of better-skilled Hunters and more amiably companions for instancing, rather than an inherent problem with the pet itself. One thing I DO remember, though, is problematic pathfinding leading to increased aggro and adds, which wouldn't be fixed by a Talent makeover. Fixing that, in addition to everything else, would be make the Hunter pretty much ship-shape, much like the Warrior currently is (or so I've heard; managing a Rogue is enough micro-management for me; I'd hate to try tackling a Warrior with 3 full stances AND having to babysit the entire party ;) My work schedule doesn't allow me the time nor attention needed for such an endeavor).

All in all, I'm very excited about the changes, and look forward to seeing what actually makes it into the next patch. And, of course, I look forward even more to getting my own fledgling Hunters (12 and 6, IIRC) up to significant enough levels to reap the benefits of these changes. :)

The future looks very bold, indeed, for WoW. Even after a year, this game is still barely growing out of adolescence. On some level, I feel somewhat cheated by this fact, but it was to be expected, and on the whole I have enjoyed the game and its slow but steady progress, and look forward to much more.

[Roland]

Best combined with a macro that says "You break it, you tank it."

OMG, that's hilarious. I should put that on for when I use Sap. :D

To me, Wyvern is just a mini-Sap on any mob, with some minor damage thrown in (rather significant, too; although I can see it climbing to pretty high levels with purchased abilities, IF Blizzard allows that). It CAN'T be any more powerful than Improved Sap. Granted, Sap only works on Humanoids, but being able to take 1 Humanoid out of the combat equation for a full 45 seconds, and be automatically set for an Ambush, Cheap Shot (another 5-second knockout for a mob), etc., OR 2 Humanoids for 45 seconds is rather Godly. The difference between even taking one mob out of combat and leaving it in as a potential add can be huge in difficult battles. It's a moot point, almost, in easy battles, but any mob taken out of the equation is just one more safety net in any fight, and that can't be discounted.

And IIRC, Sap actually gets longer as the ranks go up, doesn't it? Or am I imagining it? It's been at least a couple weeks since I've played my Rogue, and I haven't used Sap in probably almost two months or more. :P

Besides, you all are talking about Freeze Trap + Feign Death + Wyvern Sting. That's an awfully complicated setup, and there's always the chance that any of them will fail, and that chance can only go up the further along in the game you go. And wouldn't "bosses" be immune to many if not all of these abilities, anyway? I know they are immune to Sap (learned that the hard way when it was first implemented :D). That alone is enough to keep the power of this combo in check, IMHO. But, then, I'm not a Hunter player, so take my observations as outside ones.

[Roland]

A ranged form of crowd control that works on anything?  I think a lot of people would jump at it.  Keep in mind that as a Hunter, you can get out of combat at any time using Feign Death, so the out of combat restriction is not particularly meaningful. 

Especially in Molten Core, where things charge in gigantic packs, being able to split them up is critical.  Previously, this was accomplished by way of distracting shots and timed charge-taunts from the tanks; wyvern sting now makes it trivial.  A few wyvern stings and a large pack becomes a neat line of sleeping mobs.  Blackwing Lair also has a number of pulls where wyvern sting becomes a tremendous asset.
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You know, this skill DOES have a cooldown. 2 minutes may not seem like a lot, but it's certainly enough to keep you from chain-casting it, so to speak. And also keep in mind that a) it's a Sting (I think), therefore only one can be active per Hunter (and multiple Stings of the same kind do not stack, IIRC - correct me if I am wrong), B) it only lasts 12 seconds (a fractional amount of time in any heavy battle, but still not to be ignored; 12 seconds early- to mid-game is very significant, but in the late game I can't see it buying you much breathing room), and c) it has a 12-second DoT. This has two drawbacks: for one, it takes up one of those oh-so-precious "Debuff" slots, and for another it means it can't be taken out of combat for another 12 seconds. Furthermore, it's not like multiple Hunters could "chain" Wyvern Sting together on the same mob, unless they somehow managed to take it out of combat every 24 seconds (I don't see how that is at all possible, so please enlighten me if it is).

[Roland]

Caydiem has posted that the highest rank of Trueshot Aura gives +100 attack power and the highest rank of Wyvern Sting does 600 nature damage over 12 seconds.
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Not bad. Don't really know how much +100 AP really translates to in the end game, but 600 damage isn't really all that much more than 300 in the grand scheme of things. Of course, it's still SOMETHING, and paired with a CC skill that makes it pretty cool and a bit more useful, but even so, it can only be used at most every 2 minutes, and only out of combat (remember that goes for the mob as well as you).

[Mirajj]

Not bad. Don't really know how much +100 AP really translates to in the end game,
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Right now, when Mirajj is fully self buffed, her Ranged AP is 1033. I'm not as well equipped as I like, and 60 of that RAP comes from Trueshot. So when I get that, I'll end up with 1073. For a hunter, that's quite a bit of 'punch' power, but you also have to remember that it's an aura, and shared with everyone, so it's basically a nice boost to everyone. Very much worth getting, I think.

[Skandranon]

You know, this skill DOES have a cooldown. [right][snapback]84968[/snapback][/right]

I'm aware.

My point wasn't that it can be chain-cast. It's that nothing can really stop a hunter from getting off one Wyvern Sting if they really want to.

In dealing with the Molten Core and Blackwing Lair packs that I describe, it's so important to get them CCed for even *one* second. You're thinking along the lines of turning Wyvern into a polymorph, which isn't the balance concern.

Let me try to explain. Imagine packs of four to six raid-elites; i.e. level 61+ elites that require a whole raid's worth of firepower to bring down. On pulling (by any means), they clip over each other and path towards the party in a giant messy blob of death. The four to six warriors assigned to split them up and tank them can barely pick out which one is their mob; oftentimes they'll be using identical models and will thereby overlay each other exactly. They kill the puller more or less instantly, randomly acquire targets (chances are, not warriors) and begin to rip the raid into tiny little bits. Sometimes warlocks are needed to banish mobs within such pulls as well.

Previously, this was handled by having hunters fire distracting shots to peel mobs out of the blob to be tanked or banished or whatever. This requires careful timing and positioning; too late and the hunter gets killed, or the hunter gets punted into the squishy camp, or the mob moves out of taunt range, etc. And occasionally the warrior's taunt is resisted or the sunder is blocked or the banish fails, and then mobs go flying left and right, eating the hunter or warlock and proceeding to snack on the healers that tried to keep them up.

With Wyvern Sting, all you need is to assign a mob each to one of the raid's five or six hunters. Separated by one-second intervals, they Wyvern Sting all mobs but one. Now only one mob's on the puller, and the assigned tank can easily pick it up. Warlocks can banish a sleeping mob until it takes, since a failed banish won't break sleep. Instead of having to time charges and taunts, a warrior can just walk up to a sleeping mob and taunt it, with enough time for taunt to cycle again should the first one fail. It doesn't provide new capabilities, but it greatly simplifies the intricate dance required to split a large pull into manageable packets. Especially where coordinating 40 people is concerned, easier definitely equals more powerful.

[Flymo]

Wyvern sting: DoT does break freezing trap so it is not possible to chain a sting + a trap for longer immobilisation. Presumably that's why Blizzard gave it DoT.

Lightning reflexes: A level 60 hunter needs 53 agility to improve the chance of a critical strike by 1% and 14 agility to improve dps by 1. Mine has 285 agility, so 5 points in this would give me +0.8% chance to crit and 3 dps. I don't think I'll bother.

Improved AoH: 5 points in this increases average attack speed by 4-8% depending on weapon speed. No other hunter talents increase damage that much, and this is a first level one.

[Brista]

Wyvern sting: DoT does break freezing trap so it is not possible to chain a sting + a trap for longer immobilisation.  Presumably that's why Blizzard gave it DoT.

What people have in mind is Wyvern Sting, Feign Death (to go out of combat), Scorpid Sting (to remove the dot since only one sting can be active at a time), and then let the now dot-less mob walk into the Freezing Trap

[Flymo]

Yes, that would work. Freezing Trap then Feign Death then Wyvern Sting would be less mana.

Is Disengage a viable alternative to Feign Death?

[MongoJerry]

What people have in mind is Wyvern Sting, Feign Death (to go out of combat), Scorpid Sting (to remove the dot since only one sting can be active at a time), and then let the now dot-less mob walk into the Freezing Trap

I don't see why you'd need to Feign Death here, since you can set the trap ahead of time and you can fire Scorpid Sting in combat. Besides, Feign Death makes all traps dissappear. I guess you could Feign Death after the first set, set a new trap and start the whole process over. It'd take quite a bit of practice, but I supposed you could keep a mob permanently cc'd this way with sets of Wyvern Sting, Scorpid Sting, Freeze Trap, Feign Death... repeat.

[Roland]

I'm aware.

My point wasn't that it can be chain-cast.  It's that nothing can really stop a hunter from getting off one Wyvern Sting if they really want to.

In dealing with the Molten Core and Blackwing Lair packs that I describe, it's so important to get them CCed for even *one* second.  You're thinking along the lines of turning Wyvern into a polymorph, which isn't the balance concern.

Let me try to explain.  Imagine packs of four to six raid-elites; i.e. level 61+ elites that require a whole raid's worth of firepower to bring down.  On pulling (by any means), they clip over each other and path towards the party in a giant messy blob of death.  The four to six warriors assigned to split them up and tank them can barely pick out which one is their mob; oftentimes they'll be using identical models and will thereby overlay each other exactly.  They kill the puller more or less instantly, randomly acquire targets (chances are, not warriors) and begin to rip the raid into tiny little bits.  Sometimes warlocks are needed to banish mobs within such pulls as well.

Previously, this was handled by having hunters fire distracting shots to peel mobs out of the blob to be tanked or banished or whatever.  This requires careful timing and positioning; too late and the hunter gets killed, or the hunter gets punted into the squishy camp, or the mob moves out of taunt range, etc.  And occasionally the warrior's taunt is resisted or the sunder is blocked or the banish fails, and then mobs go flying left and right, eating the hunter or warlock and proceeding to snack on the healers that tried to keep them up. 

With Wyvern Sting, all you need is to assign a mob each to one of the raid's five or six hunters.  Separated by one-second intervals, they Wyvern Sting all mobs but one.  Now only one mob's on the puller, and the assigned tank can easily pick it up.  Warlocks can banish a sleeping mob until it takes, since a failed banish won't break sleep.  Instead of having to time charges and taunts, a warrior can just walk up to a sleeping mob and taunt it, with enough time for taunt to cycle again should the first one fail.  It doesn't provide new capabilities, but it greatly simplifies the intricate dance required to split a large pull into manageable packets.  Especially where coordinating 40 people is concerned, easier definitely equals more powerful.
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Easy fix: Sleep Immunity. :P Or increased Sleep resistance.

Although I guess I see your point, I STILL don't think it's THAT simple. But, hey, what do I know about Raids? :P You may have a point, but like I said, I think it's easily fixable (and without breaking much else, either).

[Roland]

I don't see why you'd need to Feign Death here, since you can set the trap ahead of time and you can fire Scorpid Sting in combat.  Besides, Feign Death makes all traps dissappear.  I guess you could Feign Death after the first set, set a new trap and start the whole process over.  It'd take quite a bit of practice, but I supposed you could keep a mob permanently cc'd this way with sets of Wyvern Sting, Scorpid Sting, Freeze Trap, Feign Death... repeat.
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The cooldown on Wyvern Sting would prevent this. It would be impossible to keep a mob CCed for 2 minutes at a time, regardless of whether Wyvern Sting is used or not, so you still wouldn't be able to CC infinitely because of the cooldown.

Or am I missing something?

[Quark]

Update: Caydiem says Counterattack will be back - and Readiness will never see the light of day.

There goes some of the aspects I was worried about, at least.

[Skandranon]

Easy fix: Sleep Immunity. :P Or increased Sleep resistance.

Although I guess I see your point, I STILL don't think it's THAT simple. But, hey, what do I know about Raids? :P You may have a point, but like I said, I think it's easily fixable (and without breaking much else, either).
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You're confusing me with Artega. I don't think it needs a "fix" at all; I'm just explaining to hunters who don't "get it" why Wyvern Sting is powerful and definitely something to consider taking.